After several churches have negotiated their way out of the Presbyterian Church (USA) in the Presbytery of the James, some are questioning the sudden hard-line approach taken by the presbytery in its negotiations with Crestwood Presbyterian Church.
The presbytery has put a price tag of $3.5 million for the church, with campuses in Midlothian and Richmond, Va., to leave the PCUSA with its property. A counter-offer from the church included a payment of $400,000; an annual contribution to a PCUSA mission of the session’s choosing of $10,000 for five years; and a five-year extension of the trust clause, ensuring that if the church closes within five years, the property would revert to the PCUSA.
Both proposals are included in the agenda for the Saturday meeting of James Presbytery at Union Presbyterian Seminary, but the presbytery AC has recommended that the presbytery not consider either, but instead, “refer this matter for further negotiation to the Trustees (those individuals elected by the presbytery to steward legal matters of property.”
“Our fervent hope is that, with the benefit of a fresh set of eyes, hearts and voices in the conversation, a mutually-agreed-upon resolution can be reached,” the AC wrote.
The $3.5 million the presbytery is demanding is actually a decrease from the more than $5 million price the presbytery’s Administrative Commission (AC) first offered to the church. Calling it a “reasonable and faithful” recommendation, the AC gave the church the option of “either returning all property to the denomination, or purchasing it for an amount that honors the denomination’s lawful and legitimate interest.” The estimated value of the property — real and personal — is more than $5 million.
Crestwood’s counter offer was $400,000, and while in negotiations, the other costs were added. Crestwood’s offer, it said, compared with settlements reach by other churches that had successfully negotiated their way out of the presbytery, and was an estimate of what the church could afford to pay.
In its recommendation, Crestwood includes a chart showing four other churches that have been dismissed from the POJ, and their financial agreements. They include: (see chart below)
- St. Giles, 377 members, dismissed in June 2013 for $250,000
- Spotsylvania, 600 members, dismissed in Feb. 2014 for $400,000
- Christ, 65 members, dismissed in Oct, 2013 for $35,000
- Third, 1,175 members, dismissed in Oct, 2013 for $370,000
Crestwood states that it is “only asking to be treated in a similar manner” to other churches that have left the denomination.
“This multi-million dollar offer remains egregiously out of line with both the national and POJ experience, and is beyond Crestwood’s means as $5.5 million,” it said.
Crestwood’s session first met with the presbytery AC on Oct. 7, 2013. A congregational meeting was held Feb. 2, 2014 in which 98 percent of those attending voted by written ballot to leave the PCUSA. The AC attended the meeting and presented its arguments against the motion. The church is hoping to join ECO: A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians.
“We believe presbytery’s decision on Crestwood’s dismissal is a providentially appointed moment, which we hope provides for a celebration of grace within Christ’s church,” said Crestwood in its recommendation.
“The authority and power to decide final dismissal terms for Crestwood rests in POJ hands,” it said. “How will presbytery use it broad discretionary authority? The answer to this question reveals the true character of presbytery, and charts a course for not only Crestwood’s future, but also for the presbytery. Crestwood prays that grace and blessing may prevail for the Crestwood church family and for our brothers and sisters in the presbytery. May God be glorified and Christian witness advanced by the presbytery’s action on the matter of Crestwood’s dismissal to the ECO.” (emphasis in the original.)
25 Comments. Leave new
So if Crestwood from the start, just sent a letter to the Presbyerty stating their intentions and more or less went to the lawyers to fight it out in the courts, surely that would have been the best move from a cost perspective and stewardship or resources , for both parties I am sure.
So why continue on this path?
I only have a couple concerns.
1) if the church was present and wholly owned by the congregation prior to the joining of the PCUSA, what claim to the property do they have?
2) How many people are being saved by this ridiculous wrangling the Presbytery is levying?
Ok I told a story, there are 3
3) How did Presbyterians allow the Legalistic, Phariseesque, Socialistic and Egocentric leadership to take hold and bring about this non-biblical discourse and dissonance?
So Presbytery of the James uses extortion just like their sister presbytery, The Presbytery of the Peaks? Not surprising.
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits.”–Matthew 7:15-16a
Peter … Virginia is not a congregation friendly state. Against all testimony, a judge ruled that the property of an Episcopal church is covered by a trust for the national Episcopal church.
There was hope that the church would have appealed that ruling, but the church decided to settle. That has left others in the lurch as they don’t have as deep a set of pockets that church did.
Indeed. In Texas, Highland Park had the financial means to pursue its property dispute with “Grace” Presbytery to a final legal resolution. State law sided with Highland Park. But HP’s leaders, unwilling to accept the consequences if the court ruled against them, paid the $11 million settlement. In so doing, they left hundreds of sister congregations in Texas, that do not have HP’s resources, in thrall to their presbyteries.
$400,000 would fund a robust litigation. Dissolve, join ECO, and bankrupt them in court if they file. The Form of Government itself says that church authority is only moral and is NEVER accompanied by a civil effect.
Lets face it, this is all coming from louisville, and we all know that as soon as the marriage vote passes there is going to be a mass exodus from the pcusa, all this is an attempt to control the process.
Until the presbyteries are held to account for their own written dismissal policies, that they change on a whim, this is only going to get worse.
Revisionist don’t tithe, they need OPM (other peopels’money) to fund the three ring freak show that they’re turning the pcusa into………..it’s all about pride, money and job protection, not about the gospel.
James, my guess is the exodus will be smaller than you think. Lots of conservative Presbyterians stayed following 10-A; I believe many of them will also stay after 14-F. The PCUSA’s steady membership decline will continue; but I don’t see a dramatic, large-scale departure happening.
Absolutely correct, Stephen. Dallas’ mammoth Highland Presbyterian contributed more than $7 million to the local presbytery. Had it applied even a small fraction of that amount to litigating the terms of its departure, it could have brought the presbytery and Louisville to its financial knees. The PCUSA is like a bully. If someone will just show enough spine to stand up to these extortionists, they will run like scalded dogs.
Highland’s capitulation — even if the product of thoughtful prayer — was a lost opportunity that cannot be calculated on any level. It’s too painful to think about.
Mark, I will speak to your third question: This began in the 1960s. From the day I joined the PCUSA in 1964, the infrastructure has been “bending the rules” to accommodate the prevailing political orthodoxy, whether it be radical chic support for the Black Panthers, the modification of prayers and hymns, the feminization of the Holy Trinity, divestment in South Africa, support for ripping babies out of wombs — I could go on and on and on. What we see today is the result of a long and patient effort to undermine and change the fundamental tenets of the Church. The very same thing is happening in the public schools. We have either been sleeping or “wishing away” what we don’t want to believe.
I believe you’re right Don, the mushy middle will look at the clause that the TE or the Session can decide not to do any SS marriage ceremonies as a reason to stay.
Those that see it as just the inevitable end to a slow but steady denial of the authority and infallibility of the Scriptures will be leaving either as a congregation, or as a slow but steady stream to orthodox denominations.
I believe The Layman had an article containing comments from one or more Highland Park leaders. They basically said their lawyers told them they would probably win in court, but there was no way to guarantee it. HP leaders were unwilling to take that chance and possibly lose their $30 million buildings and grounds. Perhaps that decision was understandable; but as I mentioned elsewhere in this comment thread, the decision doomed all the other congregations in Texas to remain at the mercy of their presbyteries with regard to property ownership.
The membership loses have been steadily escalating year after year for a long time. The 3 year rolling average for 2011-2013 is 89,296 per year loss. The 3 year rolling average 2000-2002 was 36,077. No reason to believe that trend is going to change.
Kind Brother, Poignant thoughts about the lust for money: like sex, we can’t chase this and walk in a joyous obedience to our Lord at the same time. Thanks for your fellowship! Observing the breakdown up here in Lackawanna, recent compromise in Carlisle, just grievous, wondering when any of these presbytery bureaucrats last scheduled a meeting with folks confused about rampant confusion to just pray, seek him, his glory, together, hoping/trying to salvage some of these flocks. How the media enjoys these presbyterian quarrels! Across the visible church, let’s yearn/cry for revival. Dale, P.C.A. Soli Deo Gloria
Don, you may well be right, maybe some of this is wishful thinking on my part, but why is louisville cracking down so hard on departing churches now, is there something they are seeing that we are not?
In Georgia, the Georgia Supreme Court upheld the trust clause of the PCUSA in Timberridge vs. Presbytery of Greater Atlanta. In summary, the Court held “Applying neutral principals of law, a local church assented to the relinquishment of its property rights when it affiliated with the Presbyterian Church USA in 1983, and an implied trust in favor of PCUSA existed on the local church’s property to which it’s corporation held legal title.” Timberridge subsequently appealed to the U. S. Supreme Court. Petition for certiorari denied on June 18, 2012.
Mr. Whitehurst, in half the states the churches walked away with their own property with the courts blessing, throwing around the GA supreme ct decision is amusing. The trust clause is back door stealing, at no time unless the church agreed to writing to hold the property in trust, then it still the churches property. Then again the rules change as more people leave, after all someone has to pay for this bloated, overpaid pcusa bureaucracy
Interesting thought just came to mind. Wonder if in those states where the courts have upheld the “trust” does this effectively mean the Presbytery and the entire PCUSA is liable for all debts and obligations including mortgages, utilities, insurance, etc.
The claim on property by a presbytery is simply extortion. A 9/11 in progress, as it were.
I am sure at the Judgment, one question the Lord will ask of those in charge: “How much property or money did you accumulate in my Name?”
Regardless of the legal answer to that, if a congregation were to walk out en masse, the presbytery would in fact have no choice but to assume the mortgage payments and other expenses. If enough congregations, in enough presbyteries, were to band together and agree to do this, it would effectively destroy the trust clause. I wish such a movement would be started; but it’s a pipe dream, it’s not going to happen.
Real estate such as a church building is in many ways a white elephant. They’re really not suited well to any other use. Read too many articles of vacant church buildings in Europe being repurposed to sad, kitchy or silly ends. Some buildings may be in locations where the land itself makes it commercially viable but those are rare. An empty church building still has to be maintained, insured and secured to say nothing of utilities which must be continued. If I were a lender I would not hesitate one bit to make a demand on a Presbytery to pony up!
Amen, brother!
Good News from Texas regarding property: A judge has ruled that First Presbyterian Church in Houston does in fact own its property, not the denomination. He ruled this before the scheduled trial in March because the evidence was strong enough that he did not think it needed to go to trial. The presbytery still has an opportunity to appeal this. Also Memorial Drive Presbyterian in Houston, one of the two largest in Houston, voted yesterday to enter the discernment process as to whether to leave the denomination. Overall, not a good week for the PCUSA in Houston.
Amen James. This extortion from the PC USA regarding Crestwood really angers me. Change the name of this denomination to Ichabod…the glory has left the PC USA!