The caller got straight to the point, “Easter is coming, where am I supposed to go to church?” He’s 80 years old. He’s only ever attended one church his entire adult life. It’s in the Presbyterian Church (USA) and after the vote to affirm same-sex marriage, he found out that his pastor has been secretly supportive of the change. “Our elders voted with him, against the will of God, at the presbytery meeting. This is not my church anymore. But I don’t know where to go.”
He knows he cannot stay but he knows not where to go. This is the reality faced by a myriad of Presbyterians across the country. They have not lost faith in God, but they have lost faith in the denomination that has now compromised with the culture on issues of sin and sexual practice.
Some will argue that “where do I go” is the wrong question. They argue that the question is “how can we remain faithfully” or “how can we remain as a missionary to the denomination?” Those are essential questions for the Remnant but this post focuses on the pain of those departing — less often as intact congregations and more often as individuals, couples, families or fragments of former congregations.
One layman tells me, “The lack of integrity for Scripture is a deal breaker. Some of the folks who want to leave are die hard Presbyterians. Where do they go? There really is not a good local option if Reformed theology and Reformed worship matter to you at all. I suspect that in the end, fewer will leave than want to. They will remain like captives with no where to flee. They will sit down by the river and weep. Those who aren’t aggressively pushed out, like me with my big mouth, are waited out. The powers that now be are just waiting for the rest of the old-fashioned thinking among us to die.”
Since the vote to affirm gay marriage in the PCUSA, this man’s pastor has been reinforcing an old phrase from the Book of Order that once said if a member disagreed with a decision of a church council they should “leave peaceably without creating schism.” The pastor told those who were grieved by the passage of Amendment 14F that “the proper thing to do is to politely leave if you could not in your own conscience agree with the vote. Since of course it was the Will of God and the Presbyterian way.”
The supposedly big tent of the PCUSA and other mainline denominations is becoming increasing stifling for those whose theology, morality and Biblical interpretation aligns with the historic Reformed faith as expressed in the Westminster Confession. So, they leave. By dribs and drabs.
Quietly, without fanfare.
Never to return.
And no one goes after them.
No one wonders where they went nor why.
No one cares.
Well, that’s not true. This particular layman with whom I spoke, he cares. He said, “I have actively been seeking those that are ready to leave so as to provide a point of contact when they do. I don’t just want people to leave and be lost to one another. But most leave in a fragmented fashion. Continuing to meet together in an organized way is not feasible, plus,” he added, “it’s just too painful. What we share is the loss of the faithfulness of a church we once called home.”
Through his own grief he said, “Everyone that has finally figured out the game is lost are grieving. I do what I can to talk them through it so they don’t lose hope, but there are real spiritual casualties already and will be more.”
Spiritual casualties, that’s one metric not being tracked by those who otherwise obsess over data. They count members and they count dollars and they even count churches that are dismissed, but they don’t count all the spiritual casualties, real people who are genuinely hurt and broken and devastated by what their denomination has become.
People who have been robbed of their joy, deprived of their church homes, segregated from their fellow believers, barred from fellowship by those who openly and with hostility call them bigoted haters. This is church? Well, no, and that’s the point.
My conversation partner concluded, “Once you come to understand the reality that you didn’t leave the denomination, the denomination left you, it gets easier. I didn’t stop believing the Bible, my pastor did. I didn’t stop using the confessions as the guide for interpreting the Bible, my session did. I didn’t stop being Presbyterian, my denomination did. I’m not leaving, they’ve left me.”
And then he asked, “But having been left, where do I go?” Therein lies the piercing question being faced by so many people today. They are Presbyterian in the true, historic sense of the word, but they can no longer worship at their local PCUSA church and other options are still few and far between.
So, how is the question being answered in your neck of the proverbial woods? What are you hearing and seeing — or where are you going?
43 Comments. Leave new
The question “Where do I go?” is not a simple one. As a ruling elder, leaving quietly, without creating schism, became my only choice. I could not invite people to join a denomination that did not support traditional marriage or encourage my children to join. The answer lies in identifying the core values of your Christianity and find a church that is in alignment with those values. For us, the Southern Baptist church has been that answer, as it has been for many others of various denominations. Once you are on the outside looking back, the choices become more obvious. You lead your family to a church that embraces Christian and Biblical values and try to encourage others to do the same.
Recently I had a conversation with a fellow congregant. He with great aplomb stated he was going to remain and work for renewal within. I asked him that given the fact that renewal work has been attempted for fifty years with little to no lasting success what was he going to attempt that had not been tried before and why does he think his efforts will be any more successful than those who have been been faithfully toward that goal for decades. He stood like a deer in the headlights with no response.
I am an active session member in a faithful community within what is an increasingly “progressive” presbytery. When our current pastor retires in the next few years I am very fearful that the presbytery will not grant approval to a call who is openly traditional & reform in belief.
The PCUSA tent may be called Big, but the door into the tent is becoming increasingly narrow and unwelcoming.
In 2010, I voted with the 97% majority of the Kansas City congregation of which I was (and still technically am) a member to depart the PCUSA and affiliate with the EPC.
Last year, however, a job change brought me to Denton, TX. The closest EPC congregation (Crosspointe in Carrollton) and the closest ECO congregation (Highland Park in Dallas) are both an hour’s drive away. As I already commute 35 minutes twice each day to go to work, I really have no desire to spend another two hours on the road on Sunday just to go to church.
There are five Presbyterian congregations in Denton. Three of these are PCUSA, and from all appearances they seem to agree with the PCUSA’s ordination of practicing homosexuals and redefinition of marriage. I will not bring my family to worship at any of these three congregations.
There is one Cumberland Presbyterian congregation in town, but the Cumberland Presbyterian Church divided from the PCUSA 200 years ago because they disagree with the Reformed theology of classical Presbyterianism, which is what originally drew me to the Presbyterian Church, and I disagree with the CPC’s Arminian theology.
The only other Presbyterian Church is a small PCA congregation that meets on the campus of the University of North Texas. Although I disagree with the PCA over its position on the ordination of women, this difference is far less important to me than the Calvinist/Arminian difference I have with the Cumberland Presbyterians or the vast theological gulf that lies between me and the PCUSA. Thus, it is here that my family and I now worship.
Loren, I grew up in First Church Denton and have relatives who are still there. I’m very confident in saying that most members are not in agreement with PCUSA on the issues you mentioned. However, it is largely an elderly congregation. Many of the older members probably don’t even realize that Amendment 14-F passed; it would take an actual same-sex wedding in the sanctuary to wake them up to what has happened to their denomination. Another aspect of the age issue is that many of the members of that congregation have been members for 50 or 60 years. They probably can’t even imagine leaving before they die and there is a memorial service for them in the sanctuary where they’ve worshipped since it was built a half century ago.
Having said that, it is also true that their attachment to their long-time friends and to the familiar buildings on University Drive have the unfortunate result of binding them to a denomination they would never join if they were not already in it. So, while there are many fine people there who would warmly welcome you and whom I believe you’d respect, I agree with your decision not to go there. I myself have left PCUSA. Living in Grapevine, I’m reasonably close to Crosspointe; but I’m just not at a place in life to make a start with a new church family. Anyway, thanks for your input on this web site, and perhaps I’ll have the chance to meet you some Sunday at the church on the UNT campus.
Carmen, we were blessed with some strong orthodox leaders in our former church, and we managed to keep a great majority of the orthodox members together to form a new church in the EPC. In our case, one of our leaders got the list of all the people who had voted to separate from the PCUSA (we had a 50/50 split in our congregation), and he invited them all to a potluck dinner to discuss “what’s next?” From there, it was onward and upward to our ultimate new home with the EPC, which we found to be extremely helpful with all the issues in forming a new church plant. During that process of discernment, we have met in a bar, in people’s homes, in a coffee shop, and in other places. We had great guest preachers from Presbyterian churches, Methodist churches, and even an old beloved local Baptist preacher, all of whom helped to remind us what good preaching out of the Bible is supposed to sound like. We have now purchased and renovated an old church and everything is back to normal, except that going to church is a lot more fulfilling with people I have grown to love and cherish.
I would tell people that SOMEONE has to be the person to step up and pull everyone together, before they all move on to safer places with their own families. Your person who says “continuing to meet together is not feasible” is wrong–he should try it! I found it to be an amazing experience, but you do have to give up your old ideas about “church” (especially if you are meeting in a bar like we did!). God bless!
It goes both ways. A long time member of a PCUSA church that leaves to the EPC where the bigotry against this member’s family of a nephew and a daughter who are lesbian and gay are rejected in the name of Christ.
The real answer is you act magnanimously and give up your bigotry and welcome God and Christ into your life. AND all His children.,
Many churches in the ECO offer web videos of worship services and sermons. We are in Seattle, but we will gather together and listen to Mandarin Presbyterian in Jacksonville, FL (now with ECO) and follow some of their series. The teaching and preaching is sound and spirit filled.
If you are in a place with no Evangelical churches, consider pulling together a few who want to know Christ and listen to these sermons and have a discussion afterwards. Or better yet, get the Alpha series or bible study and invite your neighbors in for discussion.
All it takes is two or three gathered together.
God is doing a great work……..keep your hearts open and watch what The Lord can do even when there is the break up of what we have always known. To many people have relied of the institutional church for their faith
and spiritual food. NOW IS THE TIME TO LEARN HOW TO EXERCISE OUR FAITH AND FOLLOW GOD, EVEN IF THAT IS DOING “CHURCH” DIFFERENTLY.
Do not despair, God is faithful and will show us the way forward.
Yes, it is hard and sad, but it can also be exciting to see opportunities (instead of giants in the land). Keep the faith, you faithful people!
I am a lifelong Presbyterian. My husband and I will never attend another PCUSA church. We are in the process of leaving the denomination.
Talk about opportunities to plant new, vibrant, faithful Churches with strong reformed and biblical foundations! Small some may be, but God closes and opens doors in mysterious ways. Truly reformed and prebytterian denominations pay attention!
Jim, I’m sorry that you believe that the belief that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God; that the Biblical warning that sex outside of a marriage of a man and a woman is sinful, is bigotry.
God is immutable, he does not change his mind. If, as Paul said to Timothy, ‘all Scripture is God-breathed, suitable for teaching’, then you can’t argue with what he said.
The only thing orthodox Presbyterians are bigoted against is sin. Everyone is welcome to face their sin, and repent.
I would have asked that pastor why, after the vote did not go THEIR way for umpteen times previously, did the gay community not “politely leave as they should” then….instead of staying and now causing a destroyed church as their winners trophy.
Jim, possibly every aspect of our nature and behavior, normal, abnormal, and atrocious… has genetic ties, but one thing I know….we are not puppets subject to every thing entering our head or imprinted in our DNA. Every day, every single one of us decides what will control our thoughts and actions that day….will it be greed, hate, temper, lust, adictions, or will it be the things that make us better than that? I think we do a great diservice when we act like people have no control over what they become….because they definitely do.
You’re right. This leftist political ‘hit’ on mainline churches began 50 years ago, with incremental, deceitful means and ends. In many churches across the nation, liberal, progressive types quietly took leadership positions while quietly ignoring traditional, conservative scripture believing members. Saw it with my own eyes. They–the progressives–were brilliant at their tactics. Got to give them credit for patiently using ‘the velvet glove.’
Thanks for excellent article. The abandoned are now traditional christians. Older members have been deliberately pushed from the pews, mocked by their own sessions and presbyteries. Sometimes their own ministers ! We quit attending any church,many read the bible, for about a year. It was helpful to be disassociated and write letter of resignation to local church. Then we visited a large, independent evangelical church with our son. Have visited Methodist churches butnnot joined .
According to my own conscience, it would have been impossible for me to teach children in Sunday school that there is any alternative to traditional marriage. The PCUSA Sunday school curriculum is already unbiblical. Imagine what it will be changed to in the next revision. The only congruent thing to do is follow one’s own conscience and be lead away if your personal relationship with God leads you away from the pcusa. Appreciate the suggestion of hearing sermons on line, or self study for a while.
It is not bigotry to believe the bible .
Where to go? There are:
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP)
Presbyterian Church in America (PCA)
Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC)
Evangelical Covenant Order (ECO, near as I can tell, the PCUSA minus gays)
Finally, there are independent Presbyterian churches (though “independent Presbyterian” seems an oxymoron
Amen, Fred. Get to planting churches people. Stop hanging on to these old wine skins. God is doing a new thing in the Reformed tradition, calling the faithful back to the Truth and allowing the heretical to do “what seems right in their own eyes.”
Good suggestions, but near large cities and suburbs in the Midwest/ north, alotmofmthese alternative presvyterian options are not available yet. Our extended families of 14 members all left the denomination. After all the trauma, just associating with name “presbyterian” at all gives us pause.
Yes, you are exactly correct. In retrospect, the liberal elements in the pcusa were plotting a coup. They never intended for conservative members or churches to have a chance tom survive. Proofmismthe Presvyteries thar will not approve of conservative ministers, even when called by a conservative church congregation. Beware,Mathis is happening in suburbs around large cities. Therefore, one is forced to exit pcusa entirely.
Great post.mthamk you. Wish we had SBC in Ohio.
I read the comments and understand the angst of the decision to go full secular and throw caution to the winds of culture.
I am retired but want our beloved denomination to succeed. However, the internal dynamics of the Book of Order that were cast aside with the revised BO. Rather than a deliberative process, we now have a political process just as in Washington. The game is played, we win, you lose.
However, a church or denomination is not a poltical party or composed of political parties. Though the appearance may be the same, the results produce chaos.
Today, of all times when unity, purity of doctrine, and witness are urgently reqquired, the majority voted to move the fence posts without asking why the fence was there in the first place {G.K. Chesterton].
Members are quietly leaving and taking their prayers and tithes and gifts and offerings with them.
If I were a lay person with a family, most likely, I would shop around.
If the gospel was preached and taught with love and charity and clarity, and the sacraments duly administered, and the worship and hymns strong on biblical theological content, I would attend for a period of time to learn if indeed this is a place where God dwells in the hearts and minds or minds and hearts of the people of God.
You might be right, the ‘Presbyterian’ name could be tarnished forever. The Layman, and other faithful, need to rethink, or at least consider prayerfully, all its options. We’re losing ground fast and the trend line looks dire. There’s several battles happening at the same time. The most important battle is saving souls, especially from apostate churches.
As long as I can remember (in a couple of weeks I will be 60) the powers to be in the Presbyterian Church have had their heads up their arse. That is why we laymen should remain as a missionaries to the denomination and not leave. The Presbyterian Church (USA) needs our help. Leaving the church only lets those who know so much that isn’t so have their way.
Jesus said “when two or three are gathered in My Name, I am with them”. Worship can take many shapes and forms. A church is not a building but a church is people–People Called and Gifted. God has called them to do a specific task–God has given them the “gifts” to do that task.
To the contrary, Theological Liberals conceive of Evangelicals who remain in the PCUSA as part of their diverse collection of “theological viewpoints”, tacitly validating Theological Liberalism’s underlying premise that the Church of Jesus Christ is essentially a theological debate club that does a few good works in the community on the side, and in which no one is to be perceived to be a “false teacher”, regardless of how far they go astray from the teachings of Scripture.
Evangelical Presbyterians have remained to be “missionaries to the denomination” for fifty years, with little fruit to show for their efforts. The PCUSA is no less hell-bent on accommodating itself to the world today than it was in the 1960s or 1920s, under the mistaken premise that in order to make itself appealing to the world, it must compromise what the Bible teaches by adopting the world’s way of thinking. But in the end, he who would make himself a friend of the world thereby makes himself an enemy of Christ. This has been the message of Evangelical Presbyterians to the PCUSA for decades, and the PCUSA has not heeded it, and I see little evidence that this will change anytime in the foreseeable future.
One development that is taking place is more truth telling about the purpose and direction of the PCUSA under the current leaders. The headlines of newspapers are letting the silent majority know what is happening. Truth about the denomination can not be ignored. There is less complacency. Churches are in discernment, individuals are waking up.
Still, there are many who do not want conflict. The PC(USA) has left theological and Biblical sound doctrines and the people are being forced to face this truth.
The decisions of higher bodies have not been in line with the people’s understanding of Scripture. Carrying out the mandates of a wayward GA
has to happen at the local church. Pastors, sessions and congregations can no longer ignore the problems….they are at the churches door now.
That is both good and sad, because Conflict is inevitable. The only hope is
that the truth of the GOSPEL can be proclaimed, understood, and accepted.
In the past it was “stay, fight, proclaim”, now I hear voices considering
moving out to follow God. The process is slow but it is happening. The bible is full of calls for people to move to a place God leads: Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Esther, Ruth, Naomi, Joseph, early church dispersion.
Now the members are the ones who will be more willing to live to be faithful to God’s call.
Maybe, hopefully this is the beginning of a revival of God’s people. Keep praying.
When our church went the way of the national church, the Lord told us to leave. I asked for scripture and that showed that the voice was from God. After visiting many of the churches in our area we felt led to a PUSA church where we couldn’t find anyone who didn’t believe the following what the bible says and centering the church on reaching others with the love of Jesus Christ. We have been very happy here and this church is growing. The old church is about 1/2 the size it was and I am concerned about where those people are. Six of us have joined this church and at least six others are attending. The feeling here is that as long as we are not required to do honor sex outside of transition marriage or put someone ahead of Jesus in worship, we will be just fine. The day may come when we will be forced to leave. Our pastor will retire in a few years and we may have problems then with the presbytery. I pray often for the many folks in the old church who are very unhappy, but feel they are too old to start over.
My prayers and sympathies are with you all. I can relate–being for the present still an Episcopalian, only remaining so due to being part of a small rural parish in Texas whose priest is a stalwart willing to stand against the gales of liberalism and apostasy. But as we are not without God, so not without hope. Grace and peace to you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the past 20 years some of us tried to reason, educate, and warn about the leftist, humanist downward spiral. I placed copies of “The Layman” and other material at the front of churches in magazine racks and the pastor, his wife, or some other person would promptly throw them in the trash. Many of the older Presbyterian USA members have been deceived, left in the dark, and don’t understand the history of the ‘progressive movement’, it’s recent schemes, and worst of all, the threat it poses to one’s eternal soul.
Go to the PCA. You will be very happy.
Jim, not once did our Lord tell anyone that it is okay to continue in sin. He called people to turn from their sins.
I agree that it is wrong to castigate anyone for the sin of another person, even that of a member of the castigated one’s family.
Agree. The gentleman’s question leans toward the rhetorical. In addition to the Presbyterian denominations noted above, the petitioner has literally thousands of Protestant churches to choose from, ranging from the ultra-liberal to the arch Conservative. Within the Protestant faith there is truly something for everybody.
This hit home. I’m in a time of discernment. My fellowship with the PC(USA) is past tense but I still attend to finish some things I started. I do not know what lies ahead for me and my family. The Layman is a sort of home to me now.
“mission to the denomination”? Read Matthew 10;14! The LORD has raised up the EPC for such a time as this!
Go to the Evangelical Presbyterian Church. or PCA they do not go along with
this as it is not Biblical. You do not have to be a part of something you don/t
believe in
I’m sure your words bring much comfort to those Presbyterians who live in communities where there is no access to an EPC or PCA congregation and whose own PCUSA congregation is unwilling to budge in that direction.
Statistically, it would be impossible to provide theological relief in every nook and cranny of this great nation. However, the various more conservative branches of PCUSA will undoubtedly be available to a vast number of those who wish to relocate.
Best threaded discussion I have read here in a while. Many thoughtful, helpful, prayerful helps and advice. Family, geography, and level of involvement all are factors in deciding to stay and acquiesce, stay and be faithful, stay and fight. If we are to go, the Spirit will give you the courage to proclaim the Gospel as you go. I would love to go out in a blaze of glory (help me here, would this be Biblical?) but after you go your influence to speak to the PCUSA is diminished, and you will be called to be faithful and productive parishioners in your new denomination. For now I feel we are called to be encouraging to to all faithful Christians who desire a Presbyterian (Reformed) system of worship and (republican-small “r” meaning representative) church government.
Lot of choices for relocation out there!
This is indeed a heart-breaker, however, this experience has been repeated innumerable times.
Bible-believing Presbyterians have an acute sense of dismay when they view what has become of the PCUSA.
It seems to me that the PCUSA is happy to see Bible-believing Presbyterians leave.
The question is where to go.
The Presbyterian Church in America is still Scripturally-sound and has a church locator website on line at:
http://www.pcaac.org/church-search/
The Evangelical Presbyterian Church also is Scripturally-sound and has a church locator website on line at:
http://www.epc.org/churchlocator
While those two denominations together cannot match the 10,000 moribund churches of the PCUSA, they will provide a church home in most locations in the United States.
If one cannot find a Presbyterian church in one’s area, then one might try a Methodist or a Baptist church.
I will say, once again, that comments need to be dated.
I agree. I also think the comments need to be moderated, and trolls blocked. But the former probably requires them to change comment application, and the latter requires a staff member to frequently monitor the comments. I get the feeling they have inadequate resources to handle these things.