Final tally on PCUSA Amendment 14F vote: 121-48, while two presbyteries took no action

Again the point has been made, and quite well, that in the “connectional” church, the actions of the one or few cannot be divorced from the many and larger, as the actions of the many and larger reflect and stick to the few or the one. One cannot hide and say, well its “them” and not me. if you choose to be in association and or fellowship/communion with others, then the actual yes/no vote is irrelevant. A 90-10 vote still sticks to the entire body as 50.5-49.5. Its a winner take all, I win you lose, zero-sum-gain polity. That the PCUSA.

There are words and there are actions. Behaviors do have consequences. Do not think for a moment that if your presbytery votes either yes or no, then you are safe. No you are not. Since the SCOUS decide on the Defense of Marriage act, just how man states have approved gay marriage, even though you may live in state X, what happens in state Y stick to the entire body.

If the marriage amendment doesn’t pass, won’t it invalidate all the ceremonies done under the “authoritative interpretation”?

That’s a good question, however I think this time it will pass, too many churches have left, hope I’m wrong.

If the amendment does not pass, the AI is still in force, although it goes completely against the plain meaning of the existing wording in the BOO, not to mention Part 1 of the Constitution, the Book of Confessions.

The only way the AI

Um .. darn laptop ..

As I was saying, The only way the AI can be overruled is by another GA.

**If the marriage amendment doesn’t pass.**

Unless there is a revival in the pcusa, the amendment will pass.

Glad I departed the PCUSA.

This should now be considered a “NONE ISSUE” within PCUSA as their membership has fallen from around 4.2 million to less than 1.9 million now. Most right thinking conservative Presbyterians have left for one of the other conservative traditional thinking branches of the “Presbyterian Church”. With their remaining mostly liberal membership it is sadly time to no longer be concerned about their future. They have made their bed so please just let them lay in it.

Too late to make a recommendation on your spreadsheet?

Reverse the columns so the older votes start on the right…this way the 2011 decision is closer to the current vote: Easier to see how the recent transitions have affected presbyteries.

#DataJunkie

If the amendment is approved, I will change denominations to an organization that has its basis on traditional Biblical values.

A vote to pass this amendment will be the death of PCUSA as functional organization. The PCUSA is holding hostage traditional congregations to a perverted reading of the Bible. Those folks will be rewarded with an eternity in hell.

My family’s Presbyterian heritage dates back to our days in Scotland sometime in the 1600’s. My only comment relating to the recent actions of the GA is “Thanks for the memories”. God speed. It is like watching an old friend die.

I just want to say that I, as a man, love men. And there is no one, not one man, who can love men more than I do. Yep. I love my dad. I love my grandfathers. I love my uncles and great uncles. Yep. I have friends that are men who I also love dearly. No one can love men more than I do. But I want to marry a woman, because from the beginning God made them male and female and that is how we are thus constituted for His glory. Many of the Pharisee teachers in our PCUSA no longer believe the Bible is the word of God. Through pride and an unconverted heart, they teach for truth the commandments of men.

Oh yes, and the Holy Book of Order has become the Bible to them, trumping the Holy Scriptures. It is a man-made religion.

Good for them, the vote means the closer they are to a mercyful death. Maybe someday people will not
think of the PCUSA as what being a Presbyterian means. I left for the EPC 7 years ago. Bill Lafferty

I’m sorry to say this, but I suspect that this amendment will pass, we lost the battle when the authority of bible was taken out of the equation, we also lost the battle in our country (society). The Presbyterian church will not died, they will live on like the other mainline denominations who have discarded the very fundamentals that defines the Christian faith for centuries. They will be a denomination that will live out and support liberal “good deeds” they will be followers of this world values, even if they are contrary to the scriptures.
The members will be of like minded liberals who belived in a secular god made in their image. There will be no spiritual conversion, no redemption, because there is no Jesus and no authority given to the holy scriptures to offer the word of God.
They will be alive in programs and activities but spiritually dead according to what Paul said to the Ephesians 2:1-3 and many other passages in the old and new testament. Without Christ we are spiritaully dead according to Paul. Those of us who came to Chris as adults and were fairly good people, (if we are honest), I can tell you that we know the difference between not having Christ and having Christ. I came to Christ as an adult, but was raised a nominal christian, I was dead spiritually. I would never, ever, ever go back there or to reject Christ, it has never come to mind to be without Christ, never, God has been so good to me and my entire family. Every day I thank God for his mercy and grace, I did nothing to deserve His gift except receiving the gift of redemption and leaving behind the life I was living and the promised to try my very best to live out the life He wants me to live. ( there is no pride here, I’m just a sinner in need of God’s grace)
So, I pray for “nominal Chrsitains”, they have a religion but not a personal relationship with the living Christ. I pray that these non-Christ churches do not receive new “nominal conversions”; because they will be deceived into a gospel made up of human wisdon and intellect, it will not lead to the Christ in the bible.
As for the believer in Christ Jesus, we (I) should pray that we become closer to Jesus than ever, pray, fast, read the bible over and over and become a light for Jesus like never before, that our behaviour and lives will cause people to want to have a life like ours. Please no fancy words, no long sermons, no pointing fingers, just living for Jesus and loving people no matter where they are, wether they are atheist, nominal or extreme liberal christians.
If God calls you to stay in the Presbyterian church, do so, love the people and let your light shine, but seriously, I do not expect for the denomination to change their ways. We should not give up on the people, God loves us all and wants to saved us all. (John 3:16)
One discussion I like to hear is; what we need to do for the children, our relatives and children in general, how are we going to prapare them to live out their faith in a hostile enviroment?

Well said, Bill.

I pastor a small Presbyterian Church and we are considering a break from PCUSA, but after investigation of other Presbyterian Church rules of government, I am tempted to suggest total independence. I have not investigated the legal requirements yet, but we might best serve as The Independent Order of Presbyterians. I believe using an old version of the book of order as our constitution, could continue to provide guidance. We are a Bible believing, Gospel preaching Church, that is being held back due to the negative publicity surrounding the PCUSA. We use the Bible first as our instruction, I don’t know what the PCUSA is using to guide their decision making process. The ship is sinking in a terrible storm, and the only one who can calm the storm is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The problem is many are willing to go down with the ship, instead of turning back to the one who can save them. I do not condem anyone, we are all condemned because of sin, but the blood shed for us all at Calary can save us. They can change the words in the book of order, but no one can change the Holy Scriptures. M.L.B.

Dear Marty,
You have made a good decision, but let me encourage you to affiliate with the ECO or EPC or PCA. We need to embrace denominations that love The Lord Jesus Christ and believe completely in Biblical Authority. Your congregation needs a larger support group of committed followers of The Lord Jesus Christ for support, for succession of clergy, for accountability, and to be able stand tall in an emerging pagan culture, to make the costly stands we will be called to make in the future. The future will be rough, recent federal court decisions have characterized committed Christians who believe in Biblical Authority as pariahs standing in the way of their emerging quasi-pagan, quasi-deistic Unitarian world view. We need each other, and we all need prayer, in these times in which we live. Good luck Marty, The Lord is faithful.

So far, presbyteries that have voted on 14-F are doing so consistent with their votes on 10-A (with two exceptions: Eastern Oklahoma voted yes on 10-A but no on 14-F; Yukon did the opposite).

So the early indication is that 14-F will be approved by a comfortable margin, as was 10-A. But even if the tide of voting turns, and presbyteries reject 14-F, is there anyone among you who does not realize that the issue will be back at the next GA, and will pass then? There is really only one course left, and that is to abandon the apostate PCUSA.

I firmly believe there will presbyteries that will leave in mass when this is over, and the only thing the louisville sluggers can do is stand there and watch.

Wes, thanks. I’ve asked the technical powers-that-be to re-order the columns as you suggest. – Carmen

Maunalani,
No. The AI stands even if the Amendment fails. It was a very smart tactical maneuver by the General Assembly. They issued and AI that is based on and keyed to the current language of the Book of Order. And they sent out an amendment to change that language. If the amendment passes then ALL PCUSA ministers are authorized to perform same-sex marriages and ALL PCUSA sessions are authorized to allow church property to be used for such weddings. However, if the amendment fails then pastors and states where same-sex marriage is legal under civil law continue to exercise their freedom of conscience under the AI.
The only way to change the AI is through the action of a future GA.
Carmen

Done!

With passage of 14-F appearing inevitable, the interesting question is what it will do to denominational membership numbers. One would think the exodus would exceed that which followed passage of 10-A. But I wonder if orthodox Presbyterians who remained in PCUSA after 10-A might also stay after 14-F. They may simply be resigned to what has happened to their church, and they’re staying because of loyalties and friendships in their congregation or for other reasons. It’s certain membership numbers will drop; I just think the decline might be smaller than some expect.

I think using any running vote guide or total on any PCUSA hot-button issue to inflame social or religious conservatives is a fool’s errand.

The organization has proven time after time again it is a post-Christain, more of a secular political-advocacy entity than anything else. Of course 14-F will pass with a wide margin, nothing else to see here.

Marriage definition is winning out 2 to 1, and the game is over, and let the continual judgement begin by Almighty Triune God.

What the denomination has lost is faith. We no longer have faith in a God who sets boundaries on behavior. We no longer have faith in a God who speaks to his people through his revelation. We no longer have faith in a God who can transform us and free us from sinful lives. The Moderator of the General Assembly spoke truth in his speech to Foothills Presbytery: “The old denomination is dead, a new denomination is born.” Sadly, while it may be a denomination, it isn’t a Church any more.

Well as of today it is 24 to 11!

I don’t think that there is any doubt that gay marriage will be approved in the PCUSA! It is only part of what is foretold by Christ in Mathew 24-The increase of wickedness and persecution of the faithful in the world. We cannot stop this inevitable process, but must pray to the Lord for the strength to endure to the end! If you don’t agree, then how do you explain what is happening in our churches and in the Middle East?

As of today, if you tally the presbyteries that voted yes to 10-a(that have yet to vote) in addition to the presbyteries that have already voted yes to 14-f, the vote will pass in favor of 14-f, 94 votes in favor which is a comfortable margin of certainty. From what I can see of the voting presbyteries that are left, 10 to 11 of the yes votes on 10-a were fairly close and won by only a margin of 5 or 6 votes. Even if these presbyteries switched, 14-f should pass by a comfortable margin. We should expect that it will pass and plan accordingly.

Of presbyteries voting so far, almost 70% have voted “yes” on 14-F. If my math is correct, only 46% of the remaining presbyteries will have to vote “yes” for the amendment to pass.

My church, Bay Presbyterian, left the PCUSA for the EPC over five years ago and I am thankful to God for leading us out before the ship sinks. On the other hand, in order for the Antichrist to gain favor the world has to get worse before it gets better (with the second coming). There is no doubt that with what is going on in the Islamic world and the rejection of God in the world generally, the PCUSA is in good company. I just pray that the “remnant” in the PCUSA who still stands by their Savior will get out before they all go down with the ship.

God created us all Male & Female. Some with high IQ some with low. Some with a talent another does not it have. Most with a desire for a physical relationship with the “other” sex and a few with the attraction to the same sex. Why this was done, I do not know. Lawyers enter and say you cannot have legal rights to another without being married, but marriage is between a man. & a woman. So those with same sex physical attractions must by law (not Gods law) must marry to have legal rights. But this is contrary to our faith. Looks like the lawyers are winning this and our Presbyterin church is letting that happen.

Dear friend I understand the reasons.
You may consider the Presbyterian Church in America, its truly a biblical Reformed church without compromisses

From Carmen Fowler LaBerge: People have been calling and asking for my projection on the vote. Current projection is 100/71…but it could be as much as 110/61. I think the 10A vote margins in de Cristo, the James, Lake Huron, Mid-South, Minnesota Valleys, New Covenant, North Central Iowa, Northern Plains, San Gabriel, and West Jersey are not likely to hold up. The vote on 10A was 97/76. With the current net gain of 3 the projection with no further swings would be 100/71. With as many as 10 presbyteries likely to change from “no” to “yes,” the final tally could be 110/61. That’s the outcome for which I believe we should all now prepare. – Carmen

Question from Don: What’s the timetable for all presbytery votes to be completed? (Though with current trend, it appears 14-F will pass well before all presbyteries have weighed in).

Carmen’s reply: Presbyteries “have” to vote before June. But as you observe, much like Alaska and Hawaii in general U.S. elections, a sufficient number of votes can be in before the polls close where you live. In PCUSA parlance that means that many presbyteries will vote after the matter is decided. Once the “yes” votes reach the necessary 86 the amendment passes.

So how does the Layman follower prepare for what seems to be a foregone conclusion? With piety and accusation? With grace and forbearance? With anger and vinegar? The world AND the church are changing. You can be a pain, or not. Lots will be written, but measured words will have more impact than the usual fray on the Layman website.
It seems pretty clear 14 F will pass.

As a person formally from Presbytery of the Western Reserve that was there when Bay Pres left…I will state that you are a sad man, a shit theologian, and I would only ask that you would do proper work contextually, theologically, exegetically, and anything else that would prove some sort of thought to such ignorant statements.

After the South Carolina decision as well as others, I have no doubt that there are presbyteries who are poised to do the same as the dioceses of ecusa when the final votes are counted.

Of presbyteries voting so far, 72% have voted yes. Of remaining presbyteries, only 38% need to vote yes for 14-F to pass. It’s reasonable to conclude this is all over, isn’t it?

Well since it appears that the pcusa is following ecusa’s path, it may be time for both denominations to come up with ministries from both head quarters to minister to this new marriage reality.
I realize that the louisville sluggers never thought they could top the success of the “daughters of sophia” but they just stopped trying.
So in accordance with our churches “big tent” theology, I have come up with some ideas that might help them “minister” to their members and attract new ones.
For example, the churches should start a “swingers” ministry for any type of married couple who are swingers, or for some of the same married couples who like the kinky side of the room, the louisville sluggers could start a “fifty shades of grey” ministry, or call it the “chandelier swingers” minsitry if they want to class it up a bit.
I’ve been told by the big tent people who post here, I just throw brick bats, not anymore, I have given solid suggestions in accordance with the pcusa and ecusa big tent policies, and I hope they are taken as seriously as we take them.

I believe James H in his comments believes that open sexual relationships will result from the new standards in the ECUSA and PCUSA, but that is far from a future reality it is already happening in the nearby ECUSA church by us and has been reported to me by many who were at church parties where this happened and they left these ‘churches’. This has been going on for years.

The only Presbyterians I know, Gay or Straight, who want to marry want to do so in the Church because it is the Church. It is the place where they want to raise their kids, grow old together, build families, serve as deacons visiting the ill, and working with both elder ministry and vacation Bible school. they want to do so with both the legal protections other married couples get, and they want to pledge their lives to each other in front of the congregation just as their straight brothers and sisters do. anyone calling for infidelity in marriage, swinging,etc. no more represents the vast majority of gay couples in the church I know than some heterosexual person calling for it would represent the straight Presbyterians I know.

You are bitter that the Church is changing on this issue (as it has many before it that now seem non controversial, but were at the time…race, womens ordination, etc). I get that. But, attacking the character, love and relationships of those you disagree with with such a broad brush is unfair, and does nothing to either help your cause, or help our denomination. It just sounds snide.

It seems that this will pass. The rationale is that each pastor can do whatever their conscience dictates, so therefore everyone can do what ever seems right in their own eyes. many are voting yes to pass it since I and my neighbor can do what we find expedient.
The end result is a lack of reverence for God. These decisions are made before GOD not just your peers in Presbytery!
I predict that the next issue will be a vote on Jesus being The One God or just one among many gods. The same rationale will prevail….each person can decide for themselves so the PCUSA will allow divergent beliefs about the very nature of God and about Jesus. The ground work has already been set by the PUP, and now the change in the definition of marriage in the name of peer acceptance and inclusiveness,will usher in the same rationale. There is no connectional nature on essentials and this will translate into more pluralism, unbelief in Jesus as Lord, and more irreverence for God.

Watch and see how this vote will usher in more heresy in the PCUSA.

THanks Gene… Another who simply ignores Bibilcal Authority. “Go and sin no more,” He said. Just because it’s in the news, and people are fighting to publicly flaunt and be decorated for the behavior that is an abomination in His eyes; does that make a justification? Was it right when the Jews crossed the Jordan and waited for Moses? In a millenium, will it be right and rightious then to marry your offspring? After all, they will also love, serve in the church diaconate, help people, feed the hungry…

BeBe, that was written obnoxiosly and rudely of you, but, I forgive you for it. The prejudices and bigotry you are comfortable with is being shown the light of day by the Church itself, and many conservatives have told me how much this stings, but that they are grateful now for it, as it was necessary for them to grow in their faith and understanding. Letting go of long held, comfortable disdain of others is not easy, and they have told me as much.

I dont know if you are a member of the PCUSA, but if you are, please consider these facts. Our best theological scholars and professors, men and women who have dedicated their lives to the study of the Word, have in the main come to the conclusion that, just as we did on race and gender, yes, we WERE poorly understanding the great message of the scripture.
Have you bothered to read the writing of former conservatives on this topic, such as Dr. Achtemeier, who is a man of great faith, a heterosexual, a scholar and once an opponant of ordination and glbt rights, but now a supporter? Compare his words (and his tone, approach and decency) to the writing of the leading Presbyterian conservative scholar on this topic, and you will see why so many people have changed their minds.

We are faithful to the Bible and the scripture. Bebe, women are ordained in the PCUSA, as they SHOULD be IF called by God to serve. Al Mohler, the President of the flagship Southern Baptist Seminary has correctly pointed out that the same approach (it is the correct one, though he is to comfortable with women in a submissive position to men to admit it) to understanding scripture that allows, indeed demands, that we ordain women who are called ALSO will lead to the ordination and acceptance of GLBT people in the church and society. Do you think the majorities that are voting the way they are are just disregarding scripture and theology and prayerful study just because they have come to a differnet conclusion than you have?

Have you engaged with them, studied with them, debated in person with them, read their scholarly words, gotten to know them and their families….or, do you just make bitter and snide comments to people on line, and make references to incest, which no Presbyterian alive I know is making a case for (not in a thousand years)?

BeBe, that was written bittery and unkindly of you, but, I forgive you for it. The prejudice and bigotry you are comfortable with is being shown the light of day by the Church itself, and many conservatives have told me how much this stings, but that they are grateful now for it, as it was necessary for them to grow in their faith and understanding. Letting go of long held, comfortable disdain of others is not easy, and they have told me as much.

I dont know if you are a member of the PCUSA, but if you are, please consider these facts. Our best theological scholars and professors, men and women who have dedicated their lives to the study of the Word, have in the main come to the conclusion that, just as we did on race and gender, yes, we WERE poorly understanding the great message of the scripture on GLBT people, just as we have made equally large mistakes in the past.
Have you bothered to read the writing of former conservatives on this topic, such as Dr. Achtemeier, who is a man of great faith, a heterosexual, a scholar and once an opponant of ordination and glbt rights, but now a supporter? Compare his words (and his tone, approach and decency) to the writing of the leading Presbyterian conservative scholar on this topic, and you will see why so many people have changed their minds.

We are faithful to the Bible and the scripture. Bebe, women are ordained in the PCUSA, as they SHOULD be IF called by God to serve. Al Mohler, the President of the flagship Southern Baptist Seminary has correctly pointed out that the same approach (it is the correct one, though he is to comfortable with women in a submissive position to men to admit it) to understanding scripture that allows, indeed demands, that we ordain women who are called ALSO will lead to the ordination and acceptance of GLBT people in the church and society. He is not wrong. Some conservatives, being very comfortable with women being quiet and secondary in the life of their church, left the PCUSA because of it.
Their loss. Not the denominations.

Do you think the majorities that are voting the way they are are just disregarding scripture and theology and prayerful study just because they have come to a differnet conclusion than you have?

Have you engaged with them, studied with them, debated in person with them, read their scholarly words, prayed with them, gotten to know them and their families….or, do you just make bitter and snide comments to people on line, and make references to incest, which no Presbyterian alive I know is making a case for (not in a thousand years)?

you words and the way you write them show that you have a lot of prayer, thinking, and study to do. I wish you the best, and Gods grace and understanding in understanding the people, their positions, and the way you approach scripture. After all, if you are a woman in the PCUSA, you have already accepted this approach once…when, I will add, as a woman in the church, it benefited you, even if not ordained, by increasing the benefits of women in ministry to us all. Conservatives called this heresy. they are wrong now on GLBT issues, just as they were then.
Peace.

It all sounds nice to ordain gays in the church of Christ rather than call for the same denouncing their sin which is an abomination according to Holy Scripture, and if I understand 1 Cor. 6 will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Too many psychotic progressives have infiltrated the Body of Christ seeking to transform the Body.

The louisville revisionist crowd needs to know that when Paul the Apostle wrote about being bound in whips and chains for the Gospel, he was not talking about s&m.

This is like watching a slow moving train wreck as the votes come in, God help the PCUSA.

Gene: You didn’t need to barf out that word salad twice. Once was more than enough.

Marty– I was on our church’s team that steered us out of the PCUSA (we went to ECO). I understand why you might be attracted to going independent, but know that is not presently an option under the PCUSA Book of Order. You can only be dismissed to another “reformed denomination.”

In any event, if your church is considering leaving the pastors and elders need to carefully study the dismissal requirements of PCUSA as well as whatever requirements your presbytery may have established in a policy of gracious dismissal or gracious separation. Many presbyteries, if they are wise, have adopted such a policy which becomes the blueprint for how to leave “according to the rules.” Follow all of the requirements to a “T,” both procedurally and substantively. Otherwise, you are likely to be in for some real grief, which can include losing your property or having the pastors and session removed by the presbytery and replaced by an administrative commission. If you have attorneys in the congregation who are seasoned Christians I would urge getting them involved–*not* to be planning for litigation but because they will understand the importance of completely complying with all requirements set up by PCUSA and your presbytery for leaving and can map out a plan for dismissal for the church that hopefully will be amicable and non-confrontational.

If at all possible, try to work cooperatively with your presbytery in this process. Understand that the presbytery is under the same sorts of pressures if something goes wrong in the dismissal process. If it does something wrong, a complaint can be filed against it as well, and in the end it can be financially liable for any mistake even if the individual church has been allowed to leave the denomination. So it is concerned also that all procedural and substantive requirements are precisely followed.

Prepare for it to take time. For us, it probably took two years from when the elders first decided the question needed to be explored to when we actually were dismissed from the presbytery. You have to be patient, if you rush things and try to take shortcuts, that is how you can get in trouble.

Understand that it is extremely likely that you will have to pay money, perhaps substantial money, to the presbytery to leave. GAPJC decisions say presbyteries must take the value of your church’s property into account in terms of setting a dismissal amount, although the monetary requirements for dismissal vary from presbytery to presbytery. And again, to an extent the presbytery’s hands are tied. If someone feels the amount they asked you to pay was too low, they can file charges that the presbytery breached its fiduciary duty to PCUSA. So if at all possible, work with the presbytery to establish an amount that can be objectively defended as fair (e.g., taking into account your property, the size of your congregation, the financial support they give to the church, what other similar churches have been required to pay, etc.).

Above all, your elders and congregation need to be praying, praying, praying continuously throughout the process.

A final thing. A lot of churches have gone through this process, and many of them have portions of their websites devoted to the dismissal process, how they approached it and what was done. Even after they leave PCUSA, many of them continue to leave a lot of material on their websites to aid other churches that might be considering the same path. So one of the early things to do is to start doing Google searches of websites of other PCUSA churches that have left, and study how they did it.

Finally, these comments should not be construed as me saying that churches should leave the PCUSA. That is up to each church through prayer and long consideration. But I am saying, if you are going to leave, do it the right way. You will save both your church and your presbytery a lot of grief. And hopefully, if your presbytery sees you want to do it the right way, that will encourage it to cooperate and not oppose your dismissal.

I should have put this right up front, but the real reason dismissal went smoothly for us is that both our church and our presbytery jointly vowed to God and with each other to approach dismissal in a manner that would honor Christ. Both we and the presbytery kept that in the forefront throughout. At the end, I think there was a fair amount of sadness on both sides that our connection was ending, but there was no acrimony and we continue to have a lot of affection and respect for our former presbytery. So make sure to put God at the center of the dismissal process, and do it in a way that honors Him, and He will make sure it will come out the way it should.

Yes, once was more than enough. As far as the scholars that you choose to follow…..1 Cor. 1:17-31 told me something about them a long time ago.

To orthodox Presbyterians who somehow rationalized staying in PCUSA following passage of 10-A: How will you rationalize continuing to stay, now that 14-F is assured of passing?

Look who God is raising up as a judgment against this nation defiantly sinning against the Lord our Triune God revealed in the Holy Bible. The first initial is I.

hit the send button twice (an accident, mea culpa)

but I notice that other than a snide bitter remark, you cannot refute what I am saying about how GLBT issues are the same as other minority issues, such as that of the role of women in the church, and the irony of conservative women (and the men who have happily shared a church with them for decades) complaining that the same approach that let them take their appropriate roles in the church is now allowing a group they just find icky do the same (hey, I am just quoting Al Mohler..the real conservatives back me up on this)

as per the “icky” thing, folks, you have been willing to be a part of a Denomination that for decades has allowed, even paid for in its health plan for pastors and their wives/dependents, abortion services. Abortion, which you consider murder. THAT you could live with. That did not lead to ‘confessing’ church movements, organized exodus of churches (with the layman happily offer help and advice for that) or anything near the consternation that the idea that two women might get married in the church, or one of them might preach from the pulpit of a congregation that called her.

that aint word salad. That’s just reality, and honesty, plain and simple. and it says more about the conservatives and their real motivations than anything.

Carmen is correct about the effect departing congregations have had on the voting. Huntingdon Presbytery (central Pennsylvania) recently passed 14-F, 31-29, whereas they had generally not passed similar amendments before. The difference? The Allensville Presbyterian Church, a small, very conservative evangelical church couldn’t take the apostasy anymore and left the denomination, taking their 2 votes with them. As Carmen said, large numbers of small membership churches matter. This is just one example.

Gene, your comments are pompous, long-winded and repetitive, but know that I forgive you for them.

I am curious as to the discrepancy in numbers on the Layman chart for Feb. 17, 2015 indicating 51 affirmative votes and 23 negative votes, and the OGA website tally dated 2-16-2015 at 3:07 pm indicating 49 total votes with 34 affirmative and 15 negative. http://www.pcusa.org/site_media/media/uploads/oga/pdf/votes-ga221.pdf

John E, I hit target directly, as your response shows. You can all me pompous ( I am not) but, you cannot call me inaccurate. All these years of putting up with abortion (murder as you see it) but, no groundswell.hummm. But this, and the reaction to it, well, it says so much (and accordingly, that has itself influenced so many votes in presbyteries). As per your forgiveness for speaking truth, well, I have no need of it, for as always, the truth stands on its own.

As one who left after 10-A, I might note that that change allowed for homosexual activity outside of marriage, so this new step is – ironically – a step in a conservative direction.

In many of the comments reference is made to the “Big Tent” theology of the PCUSA which enabled the GA to authorize the redefinition of marriage in the first place. In essence the big tent is nothing more than the new age rehash of of the old theological chestnut of syncretism. But with a PCUSA twist, the application of big tent which reduced traditional theological concepts and historic tenants into nothingness, non-meaning.

LGBT “marriage”, marriage in the big tent nothingness become what ever one wishes it to be, make it up as suits the day and age. The logical end of the PCUSA big tent is of course the dead end of theological death. Preceded of course by a near future declaration that Christ, Buda, Vishnu, various gods and goddesses of the ancient world are in essence one in the same, as the concepts of pluralism and diversity run to their logical ends. Marriage today, Christ and church tomorrow. Its the PCUSA version of the golden calf-you make it up and worship it.

Well it looks like the louisville sluggers are going to win in their battle for the last 20+ years of slowly chipping away at 2000 years of tradional Christian marriage.
I know that our very, very humble stated clerk will be gracious in his victory tour as he goes from presbytery to presbytery, wearing his finest pumps and pillbox hats firmly grasping the book of order (dog eared to trust clause page that louisville uses for their devotionals) in one hand, and saluting us all with his driving finger with the other, letting us all know who’s in charge of marriage now, and no, it’s not God.

Oh no. That is not true. Both are fornication, sodomy, and sin. Falsely calling it marriage does not make the sin less so. It simply confuses the issue for some. The wages of sin is death.

Yes, Carmen, it is done. Sad but time for those people, congregations and Presbyteries who are faithful to God to move on. The PCUSA has put being politically correct ahead of being Biblecally correct.

Sad to see so many presbyteries lining up in support of gay marriage. It’s little wonder our churches are aging and failing to attract younger members.

Peter
PCUSA will wind up as a Big Tent. But their Big Tent is going to be an empty tent. “Progressive” vote after vote but no great groundswell of folks pouring in. I’m sure when the 2014 membership losses are announced it come with some ya-da ya-da blah-blah-blah explanation of why things are all fine. Even with the money being extorted from congregations wishing to leave the denomination will not survive more than 15-20 years.

Mr. Doulos (servant), you are exactly on target. I have thought the same thing. We must repent, all of us.

On the contrary. Our church has seen a steady growth in young couples, only one same sex so far.

The OGA is woefully out of date and will be until long after this is over. I use this site and Covenant which both agree depending on which day each updates.

And don’t forget-“Judge not, lest ye be judged.”

A voice of reason in a sea of madness. Thank you Gene.

Young people overwhelmingly support the rights of same sex couples. It’s the old tired angry unchanging leadership that drove young people away long ago. They saw the two faced lifestyles, shrugged their shoulders and moved away.

Oh good grief! man has been working at his own demise since the beginning of our kind. God can certainly do God’s work and needn’t raise an army of hoodlums to help. There’s been some doomsayers predicting what God will do as far back as we have recorded history. We need to do as Jesus said and just love and help and give and forgive. The rest is noise and pathetic fears and excuses that belong to some other faith. Humanism? -RB

How can it be that so many church members can be so wrong? No arm twisting and they are charged to vote their conscious. The are presumably practicing, praying, faithful Christians. Why would they vote to affirm an accepting policy of wedding homosexual persons? Could it be that they are in favor of supporting loving meaningful relationships and leaving any judgements to God. What did Jesus Christ say about all this? Love, give, heal, visit, forgive, those sound familiar and probably helped moved the majority. Who are the remaining minority listening to? Lets see, fearful, angry, accusing, undermining, hateful, rebellous, devisive and self righteous? Oh yeah, that was the fallen angel.

Pot, meet kettle.

Seriously, the way these advocates of “love” and “peace” come on here and rant against anyone with a different perspective. Nonsense.

Trying to fill their pews by watering down the Bible.

Oh, the irony, John.

going this way has been a disaster for the episcopal and elca in terms of loss of members, in the elca church could leave with their property, so many churches were leaving that the elca leadership is trying to change the rules to follow ecusa. And now ecusa is on the receiving end of the hell that the ecusa presiding bishop put departing churches through. For louisville to follow ecusa’s playbook after all the losses in courts accross the country, frankly is stunning.

Also don’t forget “Go, and sin no more”. Look, this game is not helpful. Not, of course, that it is a game.

You’ve made your choice. Your side has won control of PCUSA. Perhaps you should be content with that, and not feel the need to come to this web site for the purpose of lecturing those who do not agree with you.

Sodomy reigns!!!! Woohoo!!!! Go PCUSA!!!!! It is a mark of sheer intelligence how you have been able to out smart God Himself (Oh I am sorry, I didn’t mean to offend. Let me say “herself”). You have outsmart even God Himself (oops I did it again. Let me say “herself”) how you have conceived a Book of Order which turns the truth of God into a lie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi John, you mean like your rants against “word salad” and your other insults against anyone who disagrees with you?

Read the Confession of Faith, Robert. It will help you to understand right doctrine. The whole Bible is God’s word and infallible. You can’t say that only the words of our Savior are inspired, The whole Bible is inspired, and that includes Paul. However, there is no place in the Bible where marriage is more perfectly defined than what Jesus Himself said about it, that from the beginning God made them male and female. And for this reason, the two are joined by God into one flesh. Man doesn’t do that. Your side is the side which seemingly hates these words, Robert.

And how can it be that so many Israelites were wrong? “Crucify him”, they said. “Give us Barabbas”. Well, give us sodomy. Screw the Bible. Yeah, how could it be that all of these PCUSA ministers and elders at the GA be wrong? They are for love and healing and visiting, right? Hmmm. Easy to say. I guess that is why the membership is moving out. They want to get away from all of this love and healing going on.

Contemporary religious liberalism rests on three pillars.

-Pluralism and diversity as theological orthodoxy
-The malleability and flexibility of the Bible to make it fit, or contextualize to any situation you want or make it up.
-The malleability of Jesus, his work and personhood, what he had to say to make it fit whatever you want.

Whatever the religious left (PCUSA) has to say and do on the matter of marriage and family, the end result of their efforts.

-A bloodless Christ who cannot save
-A listless and unfocused church that offers no hope.

Either way their death march to nothingness continues.

Why is it that all you progressives have decided that we can’t love, give, heal, visit, forgive (to use your words) – and but still believe that SS marriage is wrong.

I try to do all of those things – yet when I plant my stake on that one element – all of you declare us to be fearful, angry, accusing, undermining, hateful, rebellious, divisive and self righteous (to use your words again – with spelling corrections).

When you insist on linking the two together, there is no longer room for all the things you claim to aspire for, and we’re left at a denominational impasse.

Why?

Allow that we can be loving, caring, giving, et at. – so we can discern in good faith. Unless that is – you have a one-track agenda for which no carnage is too great a price to pursue

Jay:

Why is it that all you conservatives have decided that we can’t be faithful, honest, committed Bible-believing Christians – and still believe that SS marriage is right?

I try to do all of those things – yet when I plant my stake on that one element – all of you declare us to be fearful, angry, accusing, undermining, hateful, rebellious, divisive and self righteous heretics.

When you insist on linking the two together, there is no longer room for all the things you claim to aspire for, and we’re left at a denominational impasse.

Why?

Allow that we can be loving, caring, giving, et at. – so we can discern in good faith. Unless that is – you have a one-track agenda for which no carnage is too great a price to pursue.

The missing element is truth. What is truth? Jesus Christ is truth. His Word is truth. Love does not stand against truth.
In many of Jesus’s encounters with people who had problems, He always loved them, but didn’t withhold truth.
“Go and sin no more”, “Sell all you have…” “This is who your neighbor is” You have had 5 husbands and the one you are living with is not your husband” but I will give you Living Water. In each case they were all loved, but told the truth.
Now Jesus comes and says “in the beginning God made them male and female”… and now the PCUSA says God meant “two people”. Anyone out there who thinks being a homosexual is blessed? One can infer God loves homosexuals since He loves all. But the scripture condemns the homosexual act.
Now the PCUSA says homosexuality is OK(not a sin)if the two are married.
If not a sin, why ask for forgiveness. Certainly heterosexual marriage partners don’t seek forgiveness for having sex. So in condoning homosexual marriage, the PCUSA is saying it’s not a sin..
In dealing with this issue or any sin issue I would recommend taking the issue to Jesus and get His answer. It doesn’t make any difference what the PCUSA says.
It is because of this issue I will seek another denomination. No denomination can change the Word of God(albeit many have misinterpreted it, which is why we have denominations in the first place).
I predict the next change will deny that Jesus is the only way to God. Or that Jesus is God. Or that Jesus was born of a virgin.
After all, can 1.5 billion Muslims be wrong.

If the presbyteries vote to affirm homosexual “marriage” I am planning on finding a different denomination that conforms to Biblical teachings. I place no credence in PCUSA’s actions because they are wrong. PCUSA is acting like a branch of the liberal democrat party. PCUSA is an abomination in the sight of God! Have I made myself clear?

Acquittal is a judgement; glibly and wrongly acquitting those God calls sinners is a terrible and spiritually fatal judgment.

It is March 8, 2015, 9:44pm. I fully expect that in the next few hours I will be seeing where the PCUSA will have approved the amendment which not only contradicts the Bible’s teachings but also contradicts the confessions of the church, creating a lack of integrity between a Book of Order, now considered to be supreme and our confessions which proclaim marriage to be between one woman and one man. And of course, Jesus teaches us exactly what marriage is. And the whole of our inspired Holy Scriptures do as well. Our confessions reflect our understandings of the Scriptures. But now our Book of Order rests on man’s wisdom, proclaiming man to be wiser than God, who is all wise and holy.

Archibald,

You are clearly in the minority and clearly wrong. The vote to approve 14F will win by 2-1 margin.
Your inflammatory language does not become you,
Many theologians, tall steeple pastors and others will tell you this is the present and future.
just go away.

Sorry, Robert, but nobody is more self-righteous than those who rationalize life and scripture to fit their ‘self’. As to the answer to your question, very obviously it is the same reason that evil rules in many aspects of this life….we are in the world and it is indeed filled with much evil….there is no more Bibilical reality than that. You serioulsy don’t consider that because something happens, it is the thoughtful fullfillment of God’s intention in every issue?! There is certainly not a Biblically inspired way at looking at every world event.

Addressing Archibald’s post of March 8: The Covenant Network has the vote at 79-37 as of 3/7. Seven more “yes” votes needed for passage. While the outcome has been obvious for some time now, it is still a shock to watch the largest Presbyterian denomination in the United States actually go through with this — actually redefine marriage in clear opposition to the plain meaning of the Word.

“Shut up,” he explained

My goodness, talk about inflammatory. You are pretty illustrative of the typical liberal, telling someone to just “go away”. That is what we are all having to do. Who are these “great theologians” you speak of, which agree with you that sodomy glorifies God?……. There are none. You are actually in the minority.

Your “I know you are, but what am I?” caliber response does not change the irony of the “peace and love” crowd trolling this forum with inflammatory posts.

A Calvinist “just go away”

well it’s funny you should say, because they are “going away”, and their taking their churches door keys and bank account numbers with them, so you’re getting your wish, just not the way your side wants it!

the “just go away” seems unnecessary, I admit, and even uncalled for.
As for those who are leaving, most are doing so after paying a good bit of the money their churches are worth (the clause in church law be specific, and most states honoring it).
There are large churches that are staying, and theologians from Dr. Mark Achtemeier, the let Shirley Guthrie, Dr. Walter Brueggemann, J. Brownson, Dr. Ken Cuthrutson, and the Rev. Marc Benton, are just some of the beginning of the names of scholars and professors at our seminaries, Churches and universities who have made the Biblical case for marriage equality, and, having presented their case as the other option compared to the case made by the conservatives, they have convinced enough people that this is what God calls us to do.

People left when the same process lead to racial equity, claiming a plain reading of scripture supported their cause (read literally, the Bible indeed did) ((most, thankfully, have moved past such belief))

People left when the same process lead to women in the pulpit, claiming a plain reading of scripture supported their cause (most conservative protestants still think this way “let women be silent in church” etc). And, indeed, read literally, the Bible supports them, although the PIP’s, especially the young, leave because of that.

Thankfully, God taught us to move past literalism then, and is doing so again.

I grieve to see anyone leave the church. I would ask why they are truly doing so. It’s an honest question, so I will ask; If you could stay with decades of being in a pro choice denomination, but in a congregation that was not (in short, if you could live with what you consider child murder), why can’t you stay in a church that will allow marriage of gay couples who love each other?

I think the the thing that finally makes people leave says as much about them and their motivations as any theological argument.

At Bil Tn
Look at the websites of any seminary in the PCUSA and you will find the theologians. Since you bring up sodomy again and again, you might be interested to study heterosexual behavior that includes sodomy and other practices that you might find aberrational and yet you never mention that. You seem to be stuck on sex.

I suppose at some point in time, maybe next week, the Laymen will lead with the headline about the final passage and lamenting the current state of affairs. Again, where is the new? Was anybody who has not been under a rock for 5 years, expecting any difference? it is like the central committee of the communist party of China passing a law saying. “Communism is good” No need really to count the votes.

It says something about the contemporary PCUSA and folks will judge accordingly, but they could pass a new law saying “marriage is now defined as that which happens between a dog and cat”, or between two house plants. It is irrelevant, the Word of God remains the Word of God, His statutes remain, as His divine will, as His purpose for men and women. The PCUSA remains a minor and dying religious sect bent on its own suicide. So what has changed?

Gene,

Two quick responses: first, those leaving the PCUSA are not leaving the Church, just one denomination we judge to be too unfaithful for another which is more orthodox (whichever that may be). Not so different from one person leaving one congregation which no longer proclaims the gospel for another congregation that does. It may be right for the former congregation to grieve the loss; it would be more helpful for them to investigate why members are leaving rather than blaming the departers for their beliefs.

Second, there is a significant difference in the minds of some evangelicals between the PCUSA’s position on abortion and that concerning SSM (when this vote passes). The PCUSA has never indicated, to my knowledge, that abortion is a good thing in itself, only that it may be the best of bad options in certain cases, and that it should remain legal. (I happen to believe this is still a wrong perspective, but I can understand the possibility of biblical support for such a position.) The new PCUSA position on SSM, however, is a blatant declaration by the PCUSA that God now considers good that which He previously revealed to be an abomination (based not on social law but on creation mandate). The PCUSA is not simply saying that it believes SSM should be legal in our present culture; it is embracing this position as the settled will of God. That is quite a different kettle of fish than the abortion issue. At least, that’s my take. I hope that helps you understand where one evangelical is coming from.

No problem, my church left last year.

It’s sad to see this become a reality in the PCUSA. So many have apparently accepted the secular consensus on gay marriage. My thought was the amendment would be approved, but the lopsided nature of the vote is still jarring.

We are commenting on a news story specifically dealing with the issue of sin and church law. In this case, we are discussing the sin of adultery and the form of it known as sodomy. Since you are the one who wishes to discuss other sins which are forbidden by the seventh commandment, I am pleased to say that the inspired Apostle said that to avoid fornication, let each man have his own wife and each woman have her own husband.

Welcome to the church of what’s happening now.

AC That’s exactly what conservatives & traditionalists have been doing for the past fifty years….just going away.

You can celebrate your Big Tent all you want. Problem is your Big Tent is quickly becoming an empty tent. Church is people not buildings nor money. The denomination will not survive.

It’s interesting to me that every single Presbytery noted in the section of the article that showed which Presbyteries changed their from one year to the next…every single one of them except one (unless I mis-calculated somewhere) had fewer votes this time than four years ago. Is that likely due to churches that left? People not attending Presbytery this time around – perhaps because it seems like a foregone conclusion about the outcome? Some other reason, or combination of more than one thing? I find it interesting, whatever the reason may be, that across the board they were all smaller vote totals, often by pretty significant amounts.

Now that we have gay marriage settled, we can now move on to making the tent even bigger, so maybe our very, very humble stated clerk can suggest ways through his pronouncements we can show the world how big our tent really is. For example, we can have pcusa day at the primate exhibit at our local zoo’s, this will show that not only our we a monkeys uncle, we consider them to be part of the family, now that’s a big tent.

Now that we have gay marriage settled, we can now move on to making the tent even bigger, so maybe our very, very humble stated clerk can suggest ways through his pronouncements we can show the world how big our tent really is. For example, we can have pcusa day at the primate exhibit at our local zoo’s, this will show that not only are we a monkeys uncle, we consider them to be part of the family, now that’s a big tent.

I guess one can say that we will soon have “a new class of members”–“Cafeteria Presbyterians”–They will accept what they want to accept and reject those things that they do not agree with. How will the local churches handle this “new class of members?”

I cannot see a time when there won’t be a PCUSA. But I can see a time when it will no longer be the largest Presbyterian denomination in the United States.

My guess is that when it reaches a critically small membership number, it will merge with other failing liberal denominations as a survival measure. But if course when that happens, it will no longer be Presbyterian. But I get the feeling that won’t be seen as a problem; many Presbyterian pastors I know seem to be very comfortable with downplaying, even discarding, distinctions between Presbyterianism and other denominations.

As I listened to speakers at the meeting of the Presbytery of Greater Atlanta during the discussion of 14-F, the most compelling moments came when female clergy indicated the same arguments of scriptural prohibitions were used against ordaining women to teaching elders. Yes, the Church lost churches and members to newly formed denomination, but the sky did not fall after the 1983 reunion nor after women ordination. Was the Church different? Yes. I am a member of an African-American congregation that occupies a church that dissolved prior to reunion and had vigorously opposed allowing Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., to speak at a Presbytery meeting. I see God’s hand at work in the world as he prepares all of His children for the return of Jesus Christ. I love the PCUSA and will never leave it. God has placed me where he wants me to be and I will continue to service whether conservatives prevail or progressives prevail. “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice” ~ Theodore Parker.

that is beautifully said Mr. Whitehurst. and the female speakers at the Presbytery were correct in their assessment. The church did not do the popular or easy thing then, but this is not a popularity contest. It would be easier for the Church to ignore the callings and families of its Gay members, but, we are not called to do the easy thing, but the right thing. some of our brothers and sisters in the church will disagree with us, but I hope that they take the attitude that you take; whoever wins, this is a part of Gods Church, and it is a good and wonderful thing to be a part of it….even when we disagree amongst ourselves, the focus must be on doing what is right, not popular, and on worshiping God, who has given us all good things, and his Son. It is that that matters.

It’s very easy to get sidetracked here, as some commenters are doing. This isn’t about ordaining women, isn’t about racial discrimination, isn’t about being loving and accepting. It’s about one clear, direct question: Is it part of God’s plan for marriage that two women or two men should marry? When Jesus said “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh”, did he really mean to add “traditionally a man and woman, but sometimes two men or two women”? This is the simple question whose answer is obvious to all except those who, like PCUSA’s leaders, prefer to follow the world rather than the Word.

Exactly right Don. To equate gay marriage with being born a certain color, or Womens ordination is to miss the mark which is why the pro-gay marriage tries to lump it all together, to delfect, because they can’t point to the Bible to justify it.
Besides the book of order is their bible now, dog earred to the trust clause page that louisville uses for their devotionals.

Actually, it is EXACTLY the same thing, and many a conservative, like Al Mohler, will point this out.
The rejection of a literal, word for word understanding of scripture that Clearly allowed for slavery was called and “abandonment of scripture” by conservatives. “Its right there in the Bible” they said.
The rejection of a literal, word for word understanding of scripture that Clearly said “women should be silent in church” was called an “abandonment of Scripture” by conservatives. “its right there in the Bible” they said.

but, we rightly stopped reading scripture that way. and, conservatives said then of us what conservatives are saying about us now.

But the church is not a popularity contest. doing what we believe to be the right thing can be costly. It was on those issues, and will be on this one. But, many people, like Dr. Mark Achtemeier and others have reassessed their opposition, and after study and prayer, now support GLBT inclusion in the church. It can be hard to get outside of ones comfort zone. and, as with issues of race and women, if we have been taught a thing for decades and decades, it can be hard to open ones mind to the idea that we were (as with those issues) wrong, but its worth it.

If one is a member of the PCUSA, and supports racial equality (universal I think) and womens inclusion (very very close to universal) then you are already, as the Southern Baptists point out, “ignoring the literal teaching of scripture”, but…it is right to do so. We have done it so long we don’t even think of it that way, but it is what we ALL have been doing. and, now, it is time for us to do it again.

On the contrary, the Word does not condone slavery, nor prohibit women from speaking in church, as any number of commentaries that go below the surface understanding you have acquired will show. But it does establish a clear definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman. As for Mohler and Achtemeier, I’m not sure why you think their opinions would be important to me.

82 yea, 40 nay

http://covnetpres.org/amendment-14-f-vote-chart/

The problem is that the Bible never permits same-gender sex under any circumstances. That’s the issue. Other issues can’t be used as a means to justify gay marriage.

we fought a war and whole churches split just because the Bible, read literally, talks about how to buy and sell slaves, who can be enslaved, and how slaves should obey their masters. a literal reading DID endorse slavery.

Most Churches in the world, Catholic, Orthodox, even reformed from the PCA to many of the Presbyterians in the developing world, read the Bible literally to this day, and the “women should be silent in church” is just one of the verses that keep women from being ordained.

so, yes, the analogy works perfectly.

You should listen to/read Achtemeier because he is a respected professor of theology at a Presbyterian Seminary who used to oppose ordination, and is his explanation of why he was wrong is extremely informative.

You should listen to/read Mohler because he points out that the way we have all approached the ordination of women is the same process that, if applied to GLBT persons, will lead to their ordination (and full rights, ie marriage) in the church.

the PCUSA scholar who used to have a conservative position, and the conservative Baptist pointing that if members of the PCUSA are honest we have already taken this approach to scripture before (and the irony of conservative women fighting GLBT ord. rights and marriage) are very relevant to where we are now, why so many former conservatives on GLBT issues have changed their minds based on theology, and why it is somewhat hypocritical to not see that we have done this exact same thing before with the issue of women in the church (which was the right thing to do then, though Mohler would not agree with that part).

that is why you should read and spend some time contemplating these two very different mens relevant observations.

2 Peter 2:1-3
“But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who brought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.”

PCUSA – May God almighty cause you to repent, or may God almighty quickly remove your lampstand. Amen.

The problem we conservatives have with you so-called (why can’t we just get along?) bible believers is that you refuse to believe what the infallible scriptures say about SS marriage. It is an abomination to the Lord and a direct refutation of what Christ said about marriage! Why would I want to support an organization that believes otherwise?

The Bible also strictly precludes usury, charging interest on the loan of money. Indeed, under strict Shariah law, usury is still precluded. However, John Calvin looked beyond the words of the Bible and at the culture of the day which was strictly agrarian vs. commercial, so now we have had Christians lending money for centuries with fat returns. Similarly, the concept of “same sex marriage” was not even on the radar of the biblical writers. The passages that speak of homosexual acts actually address rape and pederasty which we still condemn. We now know that each of us is made in God’s own image and that some of us are gay at birth. It is the way God made us. Accordingly, we should welcome monogamous relationships in the sanctity of a marriage blessed by God.

And from 2 Timothy 4:

3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

82 Yes ~ 41 No, 1 Tie

83 Yes ~ 41 No, 1 Tie (the tie is effectively a ‘no’)

Minor note. It’s Charleston Atlantic, not Charleston Atlanta that flipped from a no to a yes.

“And this above all. Love one another as I have loved you.”

There is no logical progression from “love one another” to “re-define marriage to include two men or two women”. None whatsoever. The verse you cite is not a trump card that you can play to overrule the sound doctrine to which Paul refers in 2 Timothy

Your heart is in the right place. But like millions of others in today’s church, you’ve abandoned part of the great commandment; the part that says you are to love the Lord with all your mind, as well as your heart. That means you are to use the brain God gave you to understand the Word, and to look to it — not to the world — for truth.

Is this really the place for ad hominem arguments, Don? Indeed, God gave me a brain, and I don’t plan to check it at the front door of a narrow minded denomination that thinks it alone has a hotline to “God’s word.” Those are the same folks who brought us biblical justifications of slavery and subjugation of women. They do manage to “look the other way” (or dare I say rationalize?) when it comes to eating bacon and usury. So much for inerrantists!

84 to 42 now. Prospect Hill vote now in.

Donegal, Palisades and West Jersey tomorrow and tomorrow evening.

I would not describe today’s PC(USA) as a denomination. It is more like a club for elderly white liberals.

Donegal voted today – 89-73-3

Palisades and West Jersey will vote sometime after dinner. Palisades will probably pu it over the top. We will know soon

During the debate period at the Presbytery of Donegal, I spoke in favor of Amendment 14F and made 10 Biblical arguments to support my position. I’m happy to share those with anyone who is interested, but it is the Bible that compels me to support marriage equality.

Perhaps rethinking your comment might prove to enlighten you on the fact that the Presbyterian Chirch USA is most definitely a denomination—not only for elderly liberals, but for young to middle aged conservatives also.

I rejoice tonight with those who for the first time feel fully included in the church they love, and I grieve for those who feel excluded from the church they love.

I know how painful it can be to have your understanding of scripture and the voice of the Holy Spirit you hear be at odds with church doctrine and policy. I’ve been there, and on some issues I still am there. But I can honestly say that my faith has grown greatly because of the experience of worshipping and serving alongside those I disagree with. There’s not much room to learn and grow when I’m surrounded by people who all think alike. But we all have different needs.

May God richly bless us all, beloved children every one, and show us the path where his will would take us.

Are we certain this is the will of God and not our will? Are we reducing God to what feels right to our human feelings? I don’t know that God is interested in validating our feelings, but instead that we praise and honor him even when it is difficult to follow his word.

Now that we have finally thrown off the chains of 2000 + years of traditional Christian marriage, may I suggest it’s time to celebrate the pcusa’s coming out, so let’s bust out the booze, d-batteries, and the tour bus, and begin the pcusa’s “2015 SODOMY VICTORY TOUR”.
Along the way can be blasting song’s from the great bands like AC/DC, Alice in Chains, and who can forget the 1970’s great hit disco songs “Dancing Queen”, of course “I’m coming Out”.
We could all hear hard hitting sermons as we go from presbytery to presbytery from sea to shining sea from our very, very humble stated clerk, and our round robin moderator preaching from our now new “holy book of order” (book marked to the trust clause page), while we’re all hanging out of the windows saluting everyone with our driving fingers, letting the whole world know who’s in charge of marriage now in the pcusa, and no, it’s not God.

I base my argument against redefining marriage on the following logic taken from “GotQuestions.org”

Why are Christians opposed to marriage equality?

“Marriage equality” is the latest catchphrase to be thrown into the gay marriage / same-sex marriage debate. The term “marriage equality” is an attempt to reframe the conversation and ascribe a certain level of irrationality to those who oppose same-sex marriage. To oppose the recognition of homosexual unions as marriages is one thing. But it is much more difficult to oppose “equality” in marriage rights. What American would deny equality? However, attaching a new label to the cause does not change the core issues in the debate. If “marriage equality” means “gay marriage,” Christians should be opposed to it.

Why are Christians opposed to marriage equality? The question itself is misleading. Not all Christians are opposed to marriage equality, gay marriage, or whatever else it is called. Many Christians support gay unions being legally recognized as marriages. Such Christians generally hold that sexual morality should not be legislated and that, in a free society, people should be able to marry whomever they want. Biblically speaking, this is a tragic mistake.

The Bible is abundantly clear that homosexuality is an unnatural sin (Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). The Bible presents marriage as God’s invention, and God has defined it as a covenant between a man and a woman for a lifetime (Genesis 2:24; 1 Corinthians 7:2-16; Ephesians 5:23-33). Biblically speaking, a homosexual union is not a marriage. It does not matter if the government legislates a new definition of marriage. It does not matter if society is overwhelmingly in favor of same-sex marriage. A homosexual union always has been, and always will be, a perversion of God’s creation.

In modern societies that are increasingly secular and non-Christian, the marriage equality debate is eventually going to be won by the gay rights movement. Barring national repentance and a revival of the Christian faith, gay unions are going to be officially recognized as valid marriages, with all the rights and privileges pertaining thereto. But, whatever society does, it cannot change the fact that followers of Christ are to align with, and submit to, His Word. And His Word unequivocally declares that marriage is between one man and one woman. As Christians, we accept the fact that we live in a secular and ungodly nation, but we esteem the unchanging Word of God over society’s modulating mores. “Let God be true, and every human being a liar” (Romans 3:4).”

Islam venerates the Virgin Mary, and they do believe in both the Virgin Birth & the concept of Immaculate Conception. However, they see Jesus as an honored prophet, and not the Messiah.

1. The Hebrew word translated as “abomination” when describing men having sex with men in Leviticus, “toevah”, is the exact same word used dozens of times to describe things like eating shellfish, touching a pig carcass, etc.

2. The word translated as “homosexual” or “Sodomite” in many translations of the OT is “quadesh” (or for women I think “qadesha”) which is very clearly a Hebrew word for a temple prostitute, not for any particular sexual orientation.

3. The “Sin of Sodom” is defined by the prophet Ezekiel as inhospitality and cruelty to the poor, and that’s the only passage that defines it.

4. If we read through the description of the relationship that David and Jonathan have, it comes across as pretty homoerotic, and doesn’t seem to be something the Biblical author felt was shameful, even though it involved men loving each other more than they loved women, etc.

5. The Song of Songs – the couple is not described as even married, and seem to sneak around to meet each other more than once in the song, indicating that they are trysting and at most maybe betrothed. Overall it seems to be a big sex-positive love poem in the middle of the OT that Christians either ignore or pretend is a symbol for Christ’s love of the church or somesuch.

6. Paul in Romans is part of a culture where gay marriage did not exist but where pederasty was commonplace. In fact, Aristotle’s definition of ‘Platonic love’ is between a young boy and a politician. So not only is he not likely to be talking about committed same-sex relationships, he is probably talking about what we would not call rape and child abuse. In addition, he gives a vivid description of descent into sin starting with idolatry – which is in line with the Hebrew understanding of “toevah”, but not in line with LGBTQ folks who are people of faith and leaders in the church, seeking a Christian wedding, etc.

7. James’ reference to “strange flesh” as what the people of Sodom and Gomorrah were seeking sinfully can’t be a description of same-sex relationships. That would be seeking “same flesh.” The word there in Greek is even hetero-sarx. This is in line with the belief in the ancient world that the people of those cities had a penchant for seeking sexual relations with angels.

8. Jesus affirms an “eunuch”, and the Greek word for eunuch is a word that could refer to other people we would not refer to as “sexual minorities” in addition to a male who has been castrated so that he can serve in a noble household or temple.

9. Twice Paul claims that in Christ Jesus there is no more male nor female, no more gender. It seems odd to read this and then do things like deny women ordination, or demand a particular interpretation of gender roles be enforced at all times.

10. Peter has his vision in Acts of being called to eat all of those unclean animals, all of which are described in the OT with the word “toevah”, the same word used to describe men having sex with men. My conclusion was to say that I think we should not call unclean what God has called clean.

See above. I point to the Bible to justify same-sex marriage all the time. No one seems to want to take me up on it, though. But tons of people make Biblical arguments for same-sex marriage. What they don’t tend to get is rebuttals.

What Bible are you even reading? The one I have not only condones slavery in the OT and NT, but also gives specific instructions on how to force one’s slaves to marry each other, or how to force them to marry their owner. It describes at least eight kinds of marriage, none of which are what we would now call “marriage” in the United States. There’s no rational argument for the Bible being clear on one definition of marriage but not condoning slavery or questioning women in leadership.

This is a great, and much-ignored, point. There are about 14 Biblical passages that condemn charging interest, a few of which recommend execution or exile as punishment. Yet none of these “literalists” who take the word of God so seriously are picketing Wall Street or their local bank. Why? Because literalism is always profoundly selective. They lost on the issue of slavery, lost on women, lost on interracial marriages, and no-fault divorces, so now they have found a small enough minority to pick on. Only it isn’t working anymore, and they see it isn’t working, and they’re getting desperate.

Hi Archibald. Did you know that the sin of Sodom is defined clearly in scripture? That sin is inhospitality and cruelty to the poor. So our Sodomites are on Wall Street and on our southern border (in the US anyway) if you want to find where all the Sodomy is happening.

Did you do any exegesis of Matthew 19?

You probably want to work through this.

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2012/05/23/gay-christianity-refuted/

Many of your points are weak.

Well, as a member of the PCA a lot of people on this side would look to the current issue and say “told you so.” So I’m not sure that highlighting female ordination works for you like you would want.

Would any of these great theologians being willing to participate in a public debate?

Or no fault divorce.

With the Presbytery of New Covenant’s vote and the overall PCUSA vote to allow culture to change the definition of marriage, is said. I agree with the EPC in their press release that they “grieve” for the PCUSA. Did every pastor and elder that either went to seminary and/or studied the Bible, miss the clarity of God’s Word? Allowing same-sex marriage in a civil court is one thing. To change the definition due to political pressure and forget God’s definition is a shame. Instead of all this cultural infighting within the PCUSA, deep self-reflection as needed as some of your largest, mid-size and small congregations are leaving to joined other Reformed traditions that have not sold their souls to culture and do not have infighting.

I am a third generation elder of the PCUSA that left the PCUSA so that I could find a place of worship that lives out God’s word. I, like many, predict, the PCUSA will be dead in less than a decade.

Rev. Doug Hagler’s ten “biblical arguments” supporting gay marriage have convinced me of one thing — that the PCUSA is in such dire straits in large measure due to the poor thinking and impoverished hermeneutical skills of its clergy. To respond effectively to all his ten “arguments” would demand far too much space for a comment, so I will confine my remarks to his argument #7.

Mr. Hagler refers to the phrase “strange flesh” as found in the letter of James. In point of fact, the reference is to Jude 7, where the clause “apelthousai opiso sarkos heteras” is joined in series to the infinitive “ekporneusasai.” Mr. Hagler declares in no uncertain terms that the “strange flesh” description of the behaviors of Sodom/Gomorrah “…can’t be a description of same-sex relationships. That would be seeking ‘same flesh.'” On the face of it, this would seem to make sense. But the point of the passage is that as angels exceeded their proper boundaries, so the folks of Sodom and Gomorrah exceeded the proper bounds of human relationships, engaging in male-female sexual behavior outside the realm of marriage (this is the meaning of the word “ekporneusasai” — fornication, adultery, perhaps even rape)and also engaging in sex with “strange flesh” (sarkos heteras). In this context, the contrast is with “proper flesh,” which would be the male-female relationship in the arena of marriage. The “strange flesh” comment, then, would refer to “other, unnatural sexual unions,” specifically homosexual activity.

Mr. Hagler declares that it was a common belief in the ancient world that the people of Sodom/Gomorrah “…had a penchant for seeking sexual relations with angels.” That may be so, but he cites no evidence for that claim. Against such a view, I would cite Josephus (Jewish Antiquities, 1:200-201, Philo (On Abraham, 141) and The Testament of Naphtali (para. 4), all of which are roughly contemporaneous with the letter of Jude. None of these extra-biblical sources links the sins of Sodom with sexual dalliances with angels, but all of them point to the unnatural activities of same-sex attraction as one of the egregious behaviors of the city in question.

What Mr. Hagler’s comments point out clearly is the desperate need in the PCUSA for a meticulous approach to accurate interpretation of Scripture rather than eisegetical sleight of hand which quietly inserts into the text that which it has already concluded quite apart from the evidence. Unfortunately, the PCUSA long ago abandoned such serious exegetical work in favor of secular progressive approbation. May God act to restore sanity and faithfulness to this wayward denomination, or may He neuter it to prevent any further harm to His Kingdom.

Excellent post. Accepting, or tolerating, homosexual unions outside the Presbyterian church is one issue. Accepting it within the church at the alter of God is a more serious biblical problem. All sinners are welcomed in the pews. The New Testament states a higher standard of spiritual fidelity is expected from ordained ministers, elders, and at the altar of God.

So much intentionally misleading and false theology in one place.

I think you should make it clear that though sessions are authorized by the amendment to allow church property for same-gender weddings, they are not required to do so. Freedom of conscience has not been invalidated.
Thank you.

Sorry John E. I realize I was incorrect when I called your statement “ironic”. I should have said “hypocritical.”

A study of the raw numbers in the 2014-15 cycle on 14f really have not varied off the 65-35/70-30 plurality in the “yes” presbyteries and about 60-40 over-all.

So what is the PCUSA going to do about the 35-40% of their ‘active’, engaged membership who will not be reconciled to rainbows and universalism. Their corporate response to date is the concept of “mutual forbearance” and toleration on both sides of the isle. They need the 35-40% at least in terms of money and per capita.

Which sort of answers the question, what is the next grand quest and struggle for the liberal-activists, lobbyist in the denomination? The systematic dismantling of the concept and structure of mutual forbearance and the imposition of their rough form of social justice for all. Which makes sense, given their future discussions with the UCC and or/elements of the UU for possible unions and mergers. Its a more homogenous fit and process at that point.

I guess that we will have to get our Books of Discipline out. I can see our local church Sessions be busy with church trials.

Gutless wonders…those who stay (drops microphone).

Some are gutless. Some fall to peer pressure. Some have leftist/humanistic agendas, some don’t know or understand Holy Scripture, the list goes on. ‘May God humble and restore those poor souls to diligently seek the Holy Spirit and His will, not our will.’

even as a progressive who disagrees with conservatives on many things, I can respect that many of them will stay because of the mission work they are doing in their communities. they are feeding the poor. They are telling the unchurched that Christ loves them, and died for them. They are worshiping and working with people in places where they have done so for decades in some cases, and their moving would disrupt that, and where the people who come to their churches for that bit of help, that prayer, that bit of solace, know to go. they feel called by God to stay and BE the Church where they are. I disagree with them, deeply, on the issues of GLBT ordination/marriage, but I know that they are NOT “gutless wonders”. they are Christians of strength and character, and I have learned a lot from watching them work year after year for the Lord.

Maybe you are angry that the Church is changing on this (and the society is following ) issue the way it did on women (and the society is following…and yes…the PCUSA did this before the whole nation has marriage equality…it is LEADING, not following), but that is no reason to belittlte the conservatives who love God, and feel called to worship and serve Him in a denomination that you do not feel so called to do so in.

This was a carefully worded amendment and I think credit needs to be given to that. This is not a fully inclusive amendment but one that fits into our Big Tent Pluralist thinking and theology.

Sessions still have power over property.
Teaching Elders still possess freedom of conscious.

This amendment allows the personality and beliefs of individual churches to prevail.

Theologically it seems that people could use the Bible, and dependent upon their hermeneutics arrive at different conclusions and this amendment respects that.

Either way, we are not called to mindless unity but to reason together for justice and struggle with God for insight. As someone who chose to be Presbyterian this amendment demonstrates the best of our polity.

Best Regards and God Bless,
Ty

Ty, you presume that sessions and staff will be unified What happens when Elders disagree, when pastors and sessions have different conscience on these matters, or when staff is divided and lacks unity? What happens when members must decide where their conscience allows before God is and they disagree with church leaders? The conflict has been moved away from the GA, the Presbyteries and is now playing out at the local church level.

It may not be the best solution for our denomination going forward to create chaoas.

“if the government compels”….
Straw man fear based argument.
The Government has NEVER once compelled a member of clergy to marry….anyone. Ever. Nor will it.
but, it does strike fear into those who have not stopped to consider that, and fear and “what ifs?” is about all those opposed to marriage equality have to work with.

Hagler’s arguments are not just weak, they are silly, convincing only to those who have already sipped the rainbow koolAid. There are at least seven clear statements in the Bible about homosexuality, and a ton about sexual immorality (all sex is a significant interpersonal interaction–casual sex with same or opposite sex is clearly against God’s plan for humankind). All seven about homosexuality are (supposedly) rebutted with unique twists of translation or interpretation. If Hagler and his friends like those odds–7 unique argumentative gyrations trumping 7 clear and obvious meanings, I presume they play the lottery–but in the lottery all you lose is money.

The vote of the Supreme Court on gay marriage was a kairos moment
in Christian history.
Elder Lee Lybarger
Delaware, OH

Now that the denomination has done what it can to help itself implode, why not pursue something totally different, something like Traditional Marriage. While the church has been focusing on the few, why not now take this time focus on the many? Study after study has pointed to the disintegration of the family, i.e., traditional marriage, as the root cause of many of the problems we encounter today. This would include teenage pregnancy (kids having kids), poor education, poverty, crime, incarceration and on and on.

Why not take a stab at something that is truly ripping the fabric of society? Could be interesting.

The “Church” will survive the sky-is-falling lamentations of those who disagree with 14-F and the United States will survive same sex marriages being included under the umbrella of the U. S. Constitution. I appreciate the discernment in the PCUSA and the diversity/inclusiveness of our government. Everyone still has freedom of association within the church and within the States.

With the vote, or votes over the years, it’s clear that the liberal faction continued to work to stack the deck until it could get the votes it needed. I agree with you about the 35%-45% actives. It’s clear that the membership was not represented. It’s clear, too, that the leadership and many of those in attendance at the GA, will tout the democratic structure of governance. NOTHING could be further from the truth. The congregations simply are not adequately represented. Almost weekly we see the leadership taking stands as “representative of the denomination as a whole” that just run counter to what many believe and support. It’s almost as if they are looking to pour salt into the open wounds.

I take it, too, that with “Mutual Forbearance and toleration ,” they hope to replace “Graceful Dismissal” but one can see that there will continue to defections, if not by entire congregations then by individual members who can no longer tolerate the decisions and lack of adequate representation. And, “Graceful Dismissal” is really a misnomer these days as we see more and more contentious discussions and legal intervention. These days, it seems to have not as much to do with the feelings of the congregations and more with money and funding the activities emanating out of Kentucky.

I agree on what you are saying, however, the megalomaniacs, the progressive psychotics are doing the work of satan, enslaving others to believe a lie. They are embracing the abomination which will result in spiritual death.

The beginning of the end is continuing, the down hill slide is sliding south until the end of the Tribulation when Christ will take his seat in Jerusalem ruing for a 1000 years, ruling with a rod of iron.

And some have absolutely no idea what is going on. I’ve been very surprised over the hush-hush attitude that many churches are taking. Going a step further, many who are in the pews are there only because of the comfort they feel with the local church, with whom is in the pews beside them and in the pulpit. They may have gotten to the church because it was Presbyterian but they stayed because of the local community. I suspect that many of these folks would be apalled if they really know how far left the denomination had lurched. The local churches and their members are no longer represented. The folks in Louisville will probably argue that fact but, when the voting is structured as it is, it’s very easy to see that individual members (on whom the denomination relies for funding!) have never been represented as they have been led to believe. It’s really a big lie.

I go back to an earlier statement attributed to many at the 2014 GA and prior to that as well. They said, and I paraphrase, ” If we don’t do this, society will pass us by.” Since when does society dictate the will of God? It’s interesting that the Episcopalians have taken a similar stance.

This was done to meet the needs of a very liberal agenda. As many were doing in facebook, perhaps we should be coloring the PC(USA) logo with rainbow colors. Perhaps the lighting on HQ should be changed as well.

Many were as disgusted as I when the whitehouse lit itself up with rainbow colors. Like within PC(USA), many were disgusted with zeal and excitement displayed by many. In the denomination’s case, it showed little concern, beyond lip service, for those who were terribly heart. I am also a 3rd generation elder and it troubles me greatly to be run out of the church in which I have heretofore had such generational pride. In fact, I know that my father and I were baptized in the Presbyterian faith….it’s so disheartening.

Usury is not “charging interest on lending money.” Usury is charging unreasonable rates. There is a big, big difference. Today’s credit cards and payday lenders are usurous. A traditional bank loan or mortgage would not necessarily be considered as such. Better check out that part of your argument.

More to the point, several of the Presbyterian ministers I know have not only downplayed Presbyterianism, they have also downplayed the DIRECTION of the denomination, especially following the 2014GA. I was also speaking with other Presbyterians I was visiting while on vacation. They had had the opportunity to hear the stated clerk speak. Their impression was that Gradye Parsons was not nearly as concerned over the defections of congregations and lost members as they thought he should be. I believe his talk included the fact that there were still 10,000 Presbyterian congregations out there. Apparently, it was not a major concern that the membership was now down by more than 30% in about a 5-7 period. Go figure. That, in and of itself is troubling. It either indicates that Louisville is oblivious or, as demonstrated through his comments, simply doesn’t care.

48 presbyteries voted to follow the Word rather than the world. But what do they do now? One reader of this site predicted “entire presbyteries” would leave PCUSA; presumably he was referring to these 48. I don’t believe it’s possible, as a matter of church government, for a presbytery to leave. I suppose the majority of congregations in a presbytery could leave, though, amounting to more or less the same thing. But I don’t think it will happen. The ministers and elders who voted against 14-F in those 48 presbyteries will — with a few exceptions — go back to their local churches and meekly stay in the PCUSA. That’s my prediction; I hope I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am.

THUS SPAKE Doulos

THUS SPAKE Doulos

I suspect the megalomaniacs see no problems with traditional marriage. Perhaps single family households – where there is no involvement from the father, kids having kids, etc. which is a bit different from traditional marriage, is no problem to this group. And, perhaps the growth in failed marriages themselves is no problem as well. It could all be housed under freedom and self expression. Were there vows?

GOD HAVE MERCY ON THE PCUSA.