John Vest
By Sue Cyre, retired teaching elder in the Presbytery of the James
Presbytery of the James (PCUSA) has a plan to reverse the dramatic membership losses experienced by the mainline denominations including the PCUSA. It is funding a visiting professor of evangelism for four years at Union Seminary in Richmond who, in addition to teaching the next generation of seminarians, will visit congregations and equip them to do evangelism. But, the evangelism that this visiting professor will espouse isn’t the biblical Good News and therefore will likely not produce an increase in membership but instead contribute to the denomination’s further decline.
John Vest, a graduate of the University of Chicago Divinity School and McCormick Seminary, has been called to the position. Vest observes that while he grew up as a “functional fundamentalist,” he was “born again as a progressive” while at the University of Chicago. In his statement to the presbytery at its October meeting, Vest declared: “God is not an idea. God is not the words we use to talk about God. God is not the words the Bible used to talk about God. Ultimately, all of the words we use to describe God are metaphors, incomplete and provisional.” He posits that “God is the love that we share with each other, the love that binds us together in a complex network of life.”
At the luncheon presentation following the presbytery meeting, Vest was asked if he accepted orthodox doctrine on for example, the Trinity and the atonement. Vest answered opaquely, “I would not say that I’m not orthodox.” When pressed about whether he accepted the Nicene Creed, he did not respond but suggested that his teaching would not be about his faith (or apparently the church’s faith!) rather he would be equipping others to share their faith.
Earlier in the presbytery meeting Vest invited attendees to write what they thought the Gospel was in two sentences. Then Vest invited people to share that statement with those near them. He laughingly concluded that the results showed that there are many expressions of what people believe the Gospel to be.
Vest is an enthusiastic disciple of author Rob Bell, who rejects biblical, confessional Christian faith. After taking some seminary students to hear Bell speak, Vest enthused, “I found Rob Bell’s Everything is Spiritual presentation… inspiring and fascinating…. I continue to resonate with his theology and approach to Christianity.” Vest continues, “Bell is defining ‘progressive.’ … It is the insistence that our encounter with the divine is never finished or concretized but continues to develop and grow as humanity develops and grows.”
“He [Bell] tells a story that is accessible and compelling. He shares good news,” says Vest, who then interprets Bell’s agenda – and likely his own–by saying: “I think this talk is mostly about evangelizing the church.”
For a fuller description of Bell’s beliefs, a principal source of Vest’s theology, one need only look at Bell’s book, What We Talk About When We Talk About God.
Bell rejects historic Christian doctrine including the Trinity, the atonement, and the authority of Scripture. He writes, “When I was twenty, I drove an Oldsmobile…. But they don’t make Oldsmobiles anymore…God is like Oldsmobiles.” Bell goes onto explain that his straw-man-Oldsmobile-god cannot keep up with the modern world. He opines, “Things have changed. We have much more information and technology than ever. We’re interacting with a far more diverse range of people than we used to. And the tribal God, the one that is the only one many have been exposed to—the one who’s always right (which means everybody else is wrong)—is increasingly perceived to be small, narrow, irrelevant, mean, and sometimes just not that intelligent.”
The PCUSA lost 1026 congregations and 645,111 members in the decade from 2003 to 2013. In 2003 the PCUSA had 11,064 congregations with 2.4 million members. Ten years later in 2013 there were just 10,038 congregations and 1.7 million members. Membership dropped in 2014 to 1.6 million members. While the liberal mainline denominations like the PCUSA continue in steep decline, theologically conservative bodies such as the Assemblies of God continue to increase.
51 Comments. Leave new
“Rob Bell, who rejects biblical, confessional Christian faith” – Sue, this is just rubbish. Just because someone asks deep questions to start disscussiona – you rain down judgement. I am very thankful that the POJ is movng forward with this effort and reamins open to all of us exploring what the Spirit will be doing next with those of us in the PCUSA in central Virginia!
One more reason to get out of the PCUSA
I started to read an article about the Presbytery of the James, but it morphed into a hack job against Rob Bell.
If someone doesn’t like Rob Bell, there’s a lot of factual material to reference as criticism. There’s no need to make up half-truths and misquotes like this author did. Rob Bell didn’t say God is like an Oldsmobile. He said some people view God as an Oldsmobile; not himself personally.
Talk about a strawman argument. This author associates John Vest closely with Rob Bell. Then spends 4 paragraphs bashing Rob Bell. So by association, John Vest is a heretic without any credibility. Therefore, the POJ and PCUSA are all in the same theological sinking boat.
I wish the POJ and John Vest the very best in this endeavor.
His responses sound a lot like those of Mansfield Kaseman in 1979.
Well, I have seen it all now. A Presbytery in the PCUSA strives to lift up evangelism and funds supportive ministry to help – and the layman focuses on:
1. They are just trying to shore up the declining membership numbers
2. The support they have called is not a biblical Christian – therefore God will not bless this ministry
3. For good measure, gets in an attack on Rob Bell
Instead of thanking God that the gospel will be furthered, just a sad state of things at the Layman.
You raise a valid point, but just based on this article, there is nothing to suggest that John Vest is orthodox, and much to suggest that he isn’t. It isn’t such a strawman, but it isn’t the strongest argument either. According to this article, he refused to agree to even basic Nicene theology. Unless the article is wrong, I suggest that itself is telling. There is no evangelism if there is no good news of Christ, and of Christ crucified for our sins.
Do you really think that efforts at evangelism can be considered without regard to content? Really?
Sue is so right with her article. The true gospel will not be proclaimed under Vest. I wrote about him several years ago. His Christology is a low Christology; his view of the trinity is broken, his view of the atonement is nil. See, http://naminghisgrace.blogspot.com/2010/07/high-christology.html and http://naminghisgrace.blogspot.com/2010/07/my-thoughts-on-john-vests-thoughts.html
Thank you Sue for faithful work.
I am totally in favor of the Presbytery of the James paying all or part of John Vest’s salary for the next four years. It won’t make a dime’s worth of positive difference for the presbytery or for the seminary, but it will keep the boy employed and off the street for the next four years, and that ain’t nothing.
A wag once described Joel Osteen as God’s judgment on those who are foolish enough to believe what he tells them, and then send him their money for it.
In much the same way, John Vest is God’s judgment on those who are foolish enough to believe they can have evangelism without an evangel, and then shell out a whole lot of money to pay for it.
But who am I to judge John Vest in this business? It’s good work if you can get it.
We need not use Bell to bury Vest, as his own words do the job well enough:
Vest declared: “… God is not the words the Bible used to talk about God. Ultimately, all of the words we use to describe God are metaphors, incomplete and provisional.”
Sorry, Mr. Vest, but God is “The Word,” if you believe John 1:1: “And the Word was God.”
And does anyone think that the good news is that an “incomplete provisional metaphor” will save your soul? Was Jesus’ death and resurrection an “incomplete metaphor?”
Look, POJ, follow whom you will, but as for me and my house, we will serve The Lord. The One who died on the cross and was raised from the dead, in deed, in truth, and in fact, not mere metaphor.
Cool glasses and gotee don’t cover up poor theology. I love the ministers who want the paycheck without the theological discipline that goes with it. POJ waisting tithe money…
Having also attended the event, Vest opening words seem conveniently forgotten by the author: “the gospel is Jesus Christ.” His words quoted in the article without context, suggest relativism, but a fair listen to his whole speech goes against this author. The gospel is Jesus, but how people express that or understand it differs. His ecouragement to witness boldly to our faith thru evangelism was, to me, a breath of fresh air!
“The gospel is Jesus Christ” … does what?
The Gospel that the Apostles taught was that Jesus Christ died in the place of all those whom God has chosen from before the foundations of the world were laid in order that when they place their faith in Him alone, they will be saved from the penalty, power (prograssively, not instantaneously), and (at His Return) presence of sin. Any other “gospel” is a different “gospel” than what the Apostles taught, and Paul had some not-so-nice words (Gal. 1.6-12) for those who were (and still are) leading the Church astray with a different “gospel”.
Owen, it is comforting to know that John Vest said that “the gospel is Jesus Christ.” The problem here is that this answer is just a bit too glib, too short, too fuzzy. It is an answer subject to a range of possible interpretations.
The fact of the matter is that the Christian Gospel is not simply the words “Jesus Christ,” it is very specifically about who Jesus is and what Jesus accomplished for us through his life, death, resurrection and ascension, and what he will bring to completion for us and for the whole universe when he returns in glory. It is an invitation to repent and believe and follow. It’s the whole package.
A nice sounding phrase like “the gospel is Jesus Christ” sounds good, but as a stand-alone phrase, it really doesn’t tell us very much at all about what John Vest actually means when he says it.
A new genre of comedy has been unveiled at the Presbytery of the James and at Union Seminary. I think the selling and marketing skills of the gentleman far, far outweigh his skills as teacher and scholar of Christianity.
Sorry, David, but only one paragraph deals directly with Bell’s views as quoted from one of his books. The other paragraphs dealing with Bell are Sue Cyre’s reporting of John Vest’s encomia concerning Bell and his views. Since Vest seems so overcome with the teachings of Bell, it seems to me that Cyre is eminently justified in capturing his gushings as an evidence of what Vest stands for.
Any minister or evangelist who cannot openly and wholeheartedly subscribe to the Nicene Creed, or is evasive when it comes to the doctrines of the atonement and Trinity, should have the integrity to leave historically orthodox denominations and set up his/her own institution to stand or fall on its own rather than sucking on the lifeblood of a different organism as a theological parasite.
All have been called and gifted. Called that in the sense God has given everyone a task to do in His Kingdom. Gifted in that God has given each of us the necessary gift or gifts to do the task. Thus some of us are called to share the good news of the gospel with a world that is eager to hear it.
When you have Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you just want to share that with someone else.
I was not at the meeting, however I do know that the best way to grow the church is not attacking other people for the way they try to grow the church. I am currently a student at Union Presbyterian Seminary and currently in Vest’s Evangelism class. In that class he has worked hard to encourage us to be able to succinctly communicate the gospel to others. For those of you concerned with his theology I have good news for you. He is not a professor of theology. However what bothers me most is people thought it was okay to post the venom and vitriol that is found in this post and message board. Maybe if we have a problem with someone we should seek to talk to them first. May Christ have mercy on all of us for the ways we sin against each other and against God.
Donnie,
In response to your earlier comment about the importance of the Gospel in its full package, as opposed to a “stand-alone phrase,” I’d encourage you to use similar logic in your evaluation of John Vest. Perhaps if you’d examine the effect John has had on the seminary campus and the POJ already (in just a few short months no less!) as opposed to one blog post and one article on this site, you would soon learn that he has made many many many “dime’s worth of positive difference.”
Rosy, you obviously like John Vest and that is nice, but having only recently arrived in Richmond and having been a teacher at Union now all of a couple of months, it is far too early for you or anyone else to be able to adequately evaluate him or his work. He has made a good impression on you, but it is just that, an impression.
I do not believe that he will be successful in enabling evangelism within the presbytery or in equipping students to become effective evangelists in the churches where they are or will be serving. Why do I say this? Because I believe his post-Christendom writings reveal him to have a seriously defective understanding of the person and work of Jesus Christ, and therefore of the gospel itself.
Could I be wrong about this? Sure, it’s possible. Could he turn out to be the greatest evangelistic dynamo of the 21st century? Sure, it’s possible. But only time will tell, not first impressions. So … my advice to you is to give him a couple of years in Richmond, and then evaluate the results of his work in the presbytery.
I believe that when all is said and done, the evidence at that time will indicate that he has not made a dime’s worth of positive difference. Yes, that is what I think. But who knows? I’ve been wrong before. I just don’t think that I will be wrong this time.
Cheers.
Deep Questions?? He declared his beliefs … that is what is being judged.
And you use the term ‘judgemental’ as an epithet, whereas we are told in the N.T. to judge our fellow Christians.
I didn’t realize The Layman was still around. Although it’s nice to see that it no longer masquerades as a newspaper or any sort of journalism.
Outrageous article! As a member of the mainline Fourth Presbyterian Church in Chicago, I am offended by this article. Our membership grew during the years Reverend Vest was there, and he was responsible for developing our robust Youth program. As someone who has heard John’s sermons–his faith was miscontrued. The author clearly expects people to answer her questions using small words and short sentences so she can understand it. Unfortunately for her, Dr. John Vest is highly intelligent.
You must have missed the parts in the Bible where Jesus teaches us to be kind to others. Snotty comments do not a good Christian make.
Amen
This article was written based on an informal discussion. Dr. Vest was sandbagged.
You are wrong.
Then why, poor Rebecca, are all of your comments on this post so massively snarky, or as you like to say, snotty? It’s always amusing when one observes the pot calling the kettle black. I am always amazed at how people will believe themselves to be loving when they are being hateful, and tolerant and open-minded when they are being judgmental and condemning. John Vest may well be a perfectly gracious and lovely human being. If so, it’s a pity that you have chosen not to follow his example.
The Layman has been skulking around Union Presbyterian Seminary for “news” since I was a student. That’s a long time. Give it up! Nothing to see here folks.
I miss John the Teacher, John the Preacher and John Master of BBQ. When he was in Chicago fought insipid spirituality and relativism by inviting seekers to deeply explore doctrine on a personal level. That’s no contradiction. The author of this article must not have heard what John was saying. She missed an opportunity.
I heard John Vest preach at 4th Church in Chicago on about six or seven different occasions. He spoke more about BBQ than good news. Like many of the liberal PCUSA preachers coming out of seminary nowadays he seems to want to talk about himself and his hobbies more than preach the Gospel.
Are we talking about the same Jesus that took a whip to the heretics in the temple? That would totally be a felony today. Seriously, go try this at Walmart….you will absolutely not be considered kind.
I’m not seeking to argue about Johns theology or his understanding of what the Gospel is (although there is a real Barthian argument to be made that anything beyond the person of Jesus is not the full gospel, just part of it). My point is that Sue cherry picked her quotes to make it seem like John was talking about universalism. He wasn’t, and his words about evangelism that she quoted would be read differently if they were in the correct context.
Donnie Bob,
While I appreciate your continued critique of John Vest’s ideals of Evangelism, I believe your narrative against him is the same narrative continually used against the protestant reformed tradition. It is SO important, for us as Christians to continue to dialogue about the meaning of Evangelism. Which, from its original Greek root “evangelos” translates to “good news or The Gospel.” This allows us, as continued followers of Christ, to descern what the “good news” or the “Gospel” is. If the good news IS Jesus Christ, then how do we discern his presence on this Earth and his actions. I sing praises for faithful dialogue, but let us stand together in Christ to love one another and faithfully follow the will of Jesus Christ.
Leaving a church – taking your toys and going home – how does that reflect on Jesus Christ’s ministry in this world? Do we just give up when we disagree and leave?
Owen, I have no desire to argue with you about John Vest’s theology, or about what he may or may not have meant when he was asked certain questions by Sue Crye. And I will not do this. You must understand, however, that when a person writes frequently and glowingly about theologians like Rob Bell or Marcus Borg, it is perfectly reasonable for someone like Sue (or like me) to conclude that this person’s own thoughts must be in some significant way similar to the thoughts of those on whom he is lavishing his praise. When nothing is said to offset or to clarify this perception or misperception, however that may be, then the fault lies not with the one asking the questions but with the one giving the answers.
Kathryn, thank you for the irenic spirit that informed your comment here. Would that more people could argue on behalf of what they believe without rancor. I believe that the divide between those of us who self-identify as evangelical and those who self-identify as progressive is not one that can be spanned through dialogue, at least not without one or both of us betraying something we hold to be essential. In my own discussions/debates/arguments with dear friends who are on the progressive side of the issues, it became clear to me sometime back that at a deep and fundamental level ours is not a discussion about two different views of a commonly-held faith, but a discussion about two different perceptions of reality, of who Jesus is, of what it means to be Christian. Two different worldviews. Two different meta-narratives. In other words, between evangelicals and progressives ours is now an interfaith conversation. It is one in which we can engage one another with humility and charity and good will, but if we are to learn to live at peace with each other a sobering dose of reality is where we have to start. Pax tecum.
Donnie,
I get the sense that the main problem more conservative Presbyterians have with Vest is his willingness to allow/encourage progressive views (which many view unfaithful) to be shared. My final thought on Prof. Vest: he teaches people to share their faith no matter its content, so conservative students/parishioners are just as encouraged as progressive ones.
I do regret that so far our conversation has been argumentative. In an effort to reverse any mistrust that might exist, I wonder if you would be willing to share a little bit about yourself? I can sense your passion for the church and your deep faith in Christ. What about your faith has led to you remain affiliated with the PC(USA)?
As for myself, I am a current seminarian and cradle Presbyterian from the Midwest. In fact, my Presbytery summer camp is in large part responsible for my call. I’m hoping to enter congregational ministry and am especially passionate about youth and justice ministries.
Owen, thank you for your comment. Believe me, our exchange has not been argumentative, lively, but not argumentative. If you want to see argumentative, just read some of what the loose canons on this site are saying to each other. I wish you well in your seminary studies and beyond. I too am a life-long Presbyterian, once pretty far out on the left wing but now solidly on the right. I also happen to be a graduate of that institution once known as UTSVa, although I have not pastored a church in a very long time. I wish I could give you a reason why I am still affiliated with the PCUSA, but I can’t because I’m not. But that is far too long a story to tell. It is my prayer for you, Owen, that God will lead you into a deeper communion with Jesus and into a stronger commitment to make him known to others. Blessings on you.
But most of us have read John Vest, and lets just say that evangelism is not the first work I would come up with in describing his writings!
I looked at his blog and I stand by my statement. He doesn’t really stand for the gospel.
Okay, can he affirm the Nicene Creed without reservation?
I would not get too worked up about this development. The hiring of a nominal Christian academic wanna-be, teaching other nominal Christian academic wanna-bees how best to reach disaffected or disinterested Millennials with his version of “Christianity-lite” will result in the same impact as the discredited 1001 new communities and the PMA. Slim and none.
Someday the PCUSA will wake up to the fact they did not invent liberal Christianity. The Unitarians and Quakers have covered the same ground as the contemporary PCUSA, oh for about 300 years now, with far less cost and administrative baggage. Together they number about 650K in 2014, that is where the PCUSA is heading.
Any way the PCUSA will not exist in its current shape and configuration in 5 to 7 years. The entire governing matrix is near collapse in many circles. And prospective changes to the Board of Pensions for its clergy and associated employees will accelerate that process. But that is a discussion under other opportunities.
I suspect that you are right, Peter. The PCUSA, in one manifestation or another, will not disappear. There will always be a niche market for post-Christian religiosity in certain environments, and it will take a while for our progressive friends to spend down the assets that the PCUSA now controls. But as older members die off, and as congregations become smaller and weaker, and then as more and more of these small congregations begin to close their doors, the remaining clusters of progressives will become very much like the UU in size, influence and philosophy.
My own sense is that we are now seeing the last wave of congregations departing from the PCUSA to the ECO, EPC, etc. Within a few years the screws will have been tightened by the PCUSA to the point where those congregations that have not yet departed will no longer be able to do so, even if they were to wish it. And the death spiral will then accelerate for the vast majority of them.
These are indeed interesting times.
Donnie Robert:
Even if theological peace and unity reigned in the PCUSA, 55% of its congregations are under 90 members, 35% under 30. I would not call that a level of sustainable viability, it is more a “hospice” modality of function. Demographic trends will take the PCUSA under 1 mil in 5 years. But I still stick to my original premise it will merge/union with UCC by 2020-25. The Pension Plan is unsustainable in its health care accounts and will run its reserve limit in that same time frame. It will need either seek economies of scale or drastically restructure into a form many will find unpalatable.
Even if the PCUSA was able to “win” very property in trust clause case and able to maximize its monetary cash grab in every case. It is like a finger in the dyke. The pressure and fissures, fractures, damages already present will collapse the whole.
I do think it possible that there might be some merging of pension funds, etc., between the UCC and the PCUSA, but I am very skeptical that there would be any kind of organic union.
In their polity, the UCC is fiercely congregational, and the PCUSA is overbearingly hierarchical. I do not believe that the power players in the PCUSA would be willing to adopt a congregational polity, nor do I believe that the autonomous local congregations of the UCC would tolerate hierarchical meddling in their business. The two polities involved here are as different as night and day.
Because the leadership of both of these groups is post-Christian in theology and strongly left-leaning in politics, it would not be surprising if they began to work cooperatively at some point where it was in their interest to do so. But an actual merger, no, I can’t see that.
The blind leading the blind I’d say. And yes, lack of orthodox theology is a proper reason to take your toys and leave. Its more than just a disagreement, its the very basis of the church’s existence. This is not a little tiff, but the life or death of the church and its people.
Two separate perceptions of Jesus Christ is an accurate description, Donnie Bob, from my perspective, A cradle Presbyterian from the mission field, a cradle Presbyterian with a dad who was a classmate of Al Winn and a grandfather Kenneth J. Foreman of The Outlook. I could not return to the PCUS or UPCUSA (or the PCA!!) in 1980 because of the direction we/they were headed. Mormons also speak of Jesus Christ the Son of God, but their Jesus is not part of the Trinity (nor is their God). I might encourage Muslims to sit under John Vest to learn niche- and mass-marketing techniques. Perhaps John can take his students to evaluate preaching and teaching in new-church plants in, say, Tyre, Syria, and Tripoli, in Nigeria, to complement, balance and expand his students’ opportunities to hear Rob Bell seek to reach his marketshare here in the USA, where many are seeking a less expensive, user friendly gospel? No one doubts Vest or Bell’s intelligence, few doubt their integrity. Many doubt the veracity of the content of their Gospel, the nature of their Jesus Christ, their conception of God, their understanding of the human condition. Finally, seminary is where faith is to be honed, not found, the servant equipped, not stripped. As long as Vest is not belittling his conservative students for the content of their evangelistic efforts, taking them to hear counterpoint to his hero Rob Bell as well, God can use him as well as his students. If Vest treats them as some have attacked Sue Cyre and the Layman, leave him (and them) in the hands of the Lord. Let the Lord rebuke him. Grace and peace, brother.
Again, Donnie, it is too soon to know Vest’s effectiveness in Richmond, agreed. His effectiveness in enabling evangelism and equipping students hinges on the faith of his students and their sensitivity to the leadership of the Holy Spirit. The candidates and licentiates of today will be facing, perhaps more upheaval than attempted mergers between the UCC and PCUSA. We could be learning from our brothers and sisters in China, Syria, Turkey, Sudan, Indonesia, Russia: how to live for Christ in a culture that marginalizes, hates, even kills Christians. Vest, in teaching methodology and leaving content to God and the committed student seeking ordination to Word and Sacrament, might be part of God’s plan? It seems Fly-fishing Trout afficianadoes have always fared worse than than bottom-feeding Catfish lovers in seminary. But after degreed and fishing for men and women, fulfilling the Great Commission, the bottom feeders, pellet-fed, not grounded in the Word we were ordained to preach, maintaining as best they can by the grace of God the peace and purity of the Church, find those who added to their repetoire/base of fly-fishing one-on-one, casting nets so full the good had to be sorted from the bad. It’s not what’s in your wallet, but knowing the structures they love to hide in, the bait God wants us to use. Truth on the hook wins friends and influences enemies. Jesus is the [only] Way. These seminarians may find them selves serving our Lord is ways unheard of here in the USA, but common enough elsewhere. Trust God and thank him for the Layman? We don’t have to agree with everything we read. But sheep know their Master’s voice.
Thank you, Sue Cyre for your perspective. The only addition I would add is that the Assemblies of God are experiencing some internal stress and strife of their own now, as are many denoninations who find denominational changes tougher than first anticipated, since differing polity backgrounds and less-known theological differences surfacing along the journey of faith. (We are NOT all working hard to get to the same place, as some would describe the good news, our loving everybody. Some of us are working out of gratitude BECAUSE of the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ on His Cross. That is the difference in the Good News of Jesus, compared to the works righteousness of all other religions on the planet. That said, you have a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. Smetimes we are best identified by our enemies, not our firends, our detractors rather than our benefactors. Keep up the good work reporting the news and letting your reader cuss and discuss it.
Sam Foreman, you may not read this message since this is an old thread, but thank you for your comments.
I remember Al Winn quite well from my days as a student at UTS in Richmond, but your grandfather had passed on before that time. Kenneth Foreman had the reputation of being a person totally grounded in historic orthodoxy but also open to the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the church, and was much admired by many people.
I do not know how the events of our day will play out in the long run, but I do know who is in charge of the whole process. This gives us the confidence we need to do our best, and trust the Lord to bring good out of it.
Peace.