Mission Presbytery has sent individual letters to First Presbyterian Church in San Antonio’s three pastors and the clerk of session informing them that not only is Sunday’s congregational meeting “not consistent” with the requirements and provisions of the denomination’s constitution, it could result in “the possibility of ecclesiastical charges and of being found to have renounced the jurisdiction of the Church.”
“It is important that you and the others to whom I am writing know both the significance and the full implications of what you are about to do, and of what you are asking others to do,” says the Oct. 28 letter.
In its letter to the presbytery FPC-San Antonio Clerk of Session Norton A. Stuart III “strongly disagrees” with the presbytery’s assessment: “Please be advised, on behalf of myself and all of the ruling and teaching elders associated with First Presbyterian Church of San Antonio that in calling the congregational meeting for the purpose of allowing the congregation to decide on the question of disaffiliation, the session most definitely has NOT renounced the jurisdiction of the PCUSA.”
First Presbyterian Church in San Antonio
To the contrary, the Stuart states, the church firmly believes it is operating in a manner “entirely consistent with the Book of Order, rightly and reasonably construed. Neither the session (nor any entity that would purport to act with session authority) nor the presbytery has any valid basis under G-2.0407 or G-2.0509 to rashly and unilaterally declare that any ruling elder or teaching elder has renounced jurisdiction.”
If such action where to take place, his letter requests that the due process be observed and followed.
The letters reference the FPC-San Antonio’s scheduled congregational meeting on Sunday, where members will vote on whether to disaffiliate with the Presbyterian Church (USA) and join ECO: A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians.
The vote by the church specifically asks “Whether First Presbyterian Church of San Antonio should terminate its voluntary affiliation from the PCUSA?”
The presbytery, however, recommends in its letter that the ballot for the meeting be changed to read “Shall the congregation of First Presbyterian Church request to be dismissed by Mission Presbytery from the Presbyterian Church (USA) to the Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians (ECO)?,” and thereby by “in compliance” with the PCUSA constitution.
The difference is that by voting to approve the recommendation to “terminate its voluntary affiliation,” the church, at that time, would be out of the denomination. By voting to “request to be dismissed by Mission Presbytery” the church would be subjecting itself to a dismissal process that could take anywhere from months and years and would require a monetary settlement from the church to the presbytery for it to leave with its property.
Screen grab of the original “About” page for the We Love First Presbyterian Church, San Antonio Facebook site, before it was edited to delete the reference to Mission Presbytery.
The three pastors of the church — The Rev. Ronald Scates, interim pastor, The Rev. Scott Simpson, associate pastor and The Rev. Louis Zbinden, pastor emeritus – have all publically stated that they are in favor of leaving the denomination. However, there is anonymous group – Friends of the Presbyterian Church (USA) in First Presbyterian Church-San Antonio – which is closely associated with the presbytery and they are actively campaigning for church members to vote “No.”
The presbytery has appointed an Administrative Commission (AC) to “intervene on its behalf” with the church.
Stuart’s letter states that it is willing to meet with the AC and has already tried to arrange a meeting. It also confirms its willingness to meet with Mission Presbytery to discuss terms of dismissal. “Other churches in the denomination have held votes to disaffiliate, yet continued discussions with their presbyteries and reached agreement on the terms of dismissal. To our knowledge, no other presbytery has taken the position that such action constitutes a renunciation of jurisdiction.”
Oct. 28 letters to
- The Rev. Ronald Scates, interim pastor
- The Rev. Scott Simpson, associate pastor
- The Rev. Louis Zbinden, pastor emeritus
- Elder Norton A. Stuart III, clerk of session
Oct. 29 letter
Other related links
FPC-San Antonio schedules disaffiliation vote; Anonymous group urges church to vote ‘No’
Presbytery appoints Administrative Commission, despite assuring judge it would not
From the Midwest to Texas, churches continue to realign among Presbyterian denominations
Ron Scates accused of violating ordination vows
Denomination grapples with First Presbyterian over leaders’ push to leave (subscription required)
50 Comments. Leave new
1.02 The Organizing of a Congregation
A congregation can be organized only by the authority of a presbytery and shall function under the provisions of this Constitution.
3.0103 Duties
The presbytery has the authority and pastoral responsibility to:
c. Dismiss congregations to other presbyteries or denominations.
The concept that any church is bound against it’s will and can only be released by the grace of the Presbytery is not valid and is frankly quite arrogant. No where in the Bible does it indicate that an individual church is subject to the whims and desires of an organization created by man. The only higher authority that any church and their congregation are held to is the Lord God Almighty. The PCUSA has left the light of God and aligned itself with those who actively works to the work of the devil. By what authority do you lay claim to the future of any church and it’s property. The ONLY AUTHORITY you have was granted by the very people who you would attempt to usurp there AUTHORITY? History has clearly shown that your practiced Theology is clearly not enough as massive numbers continue to disassociate themselves. May God have mercy on your souls.
Michael Campbell, these directive are from the ECO constitution – not the PCUSA constitution (just left out two words: “in ECO”). I wonder if FPCSA will function under the provisions of the ECO constitution, clearly it feels it has no obligation to function under the PCUSA constituion anymore. FPCSA leaders should abandon the vote this Sunday and do things decently and in order, by following the constitution they are currently functioning under.
http://eco-pres.org/static/media/uploads/resources/eco_polity_and_discipline_020113.pdf
We have witnessed a score of churches leaving the PCUSA. How many have joined? Not asking how many the PCUSA has tried to start (even those numbers would be low), but how many pre-existing churches have joined the PCUSA? Me doth guess <10? Hope none of the PCUSA ministers and staff moonlight as business professors….but if this trend continues, ministers and staff might need to take moonlighting seriously…just sayin.
Anonymous friends?
How courageous!
Yeah, that’s in keeping with Christian witness/martus?
Do they carry blades to go with their masks?
Altogether now, “Stand up! Stand up for Jesus!”
People who stand behind the upokrisis mask of anonymity are cowardly as in not having the courage of their convictions.
How unLutherlike and unBonhoefferlike and unKinglike…not to mention how unChristlike.
Pathetic.
Hmm.
I wonder who is organizing, leading, counseling,…them?
Hmm.
People wanting to leave the PCUSA?
Kinda reminds me of the border stuff in a parallel metaphorical kinda way.
People are leaving Mexico for the USA; but how many people are leaving the USA for Mexico?
Get it?
If not, I could never hope to explain it to you.
BTW, I know Ron and Louie. They are wonderful saints and undershepherds to the Good Shepherd. It will be so sad to lose ’em in our struggle to pray and labor to get the PCUSA back to Jesus by the book as confirmed by our confessions, constitution, traditions, history, and common sense.
No wonder the bad guys in the PCUSA like the Doors’ “Five to One” so much. They get stronger with every withdrawal and people who love Jesus by the book get weaker.
O.K., now is a good time for the parousia.
🙂
The PCUSA does not follow its own Book of Order (witness the most recent General Assemblies). Presbyteries invoking the “rules” and wording specifics look foolish.
Bob Kopp – the letter from the Presbytery was not “Anonymous.” Try to keep up here, are you refering to another post? Every time I see this strawman argument from you it becomes more clear you all are just trying to continue to sow fear, division, and dissent. Focus – what is wrong with just following the process, what do you fear?
The letter from the session back to the presbytery is the best thing I have read this year!
How about five years in litigation and 20 million dollars given to a repellant organization?
They have not violated any constitutional process, as the session’s letter makes quite clear.
Wrong, the session calling a congregational meeting to vote on disaffiliation violates G-1.0503 Business Proper to Congregational Meetings.
Yes, clearly that is the fear, losing property and money. Thanks for clearing that up.
Davy, it appears to be a reference to the anonymous group that is mentioned in the article, “Friends of the Presbyterian Church (USA) in First Presbyterian Church-San Antonio – which is closely associated with the presbytery and they are actively campaigning for church members to vote “No.”” They have a Facebook page, and yes, clearly they are anonymous.
Take care!
Your comment has been edited as it referenced a person by name who is not in this thread which is contrary to our policy.
The PCUSA PRESBYTERIES are most correct to press the Benedict Arnolds and Judas Ascariats of the churches within it’s body. Those pastors are leading mutanous behavior over the majority will of the congregational membership. They and the Layman are attacking and interfering wirh tge peace and unity of the chuch body. Nothing is right or Godly in what they do. It is merely srlf justified, self tighteous behavior that has nothing to do with the glory of God. Not in keeping with Christ’s tenets either. That leaves self, ego, personal power and financial gain as motives. Gee, if the shoe fits..
If the majority will is to stay in the PCUSA then a vote where ever member’s ballot carrys the same weight will lead to a victory for those who want to stay. You have nothing to worry about!
What is wrong with following the gracious dismissal process? 1. My yes vote is worth 20% and a corresponding no vote is worth 80% when a threshold of 80% is required to leave. That sounds like a dictatorship not a democracy. 2. Churches that have met the arbitrary supermajority threshold are still not released; once again that sounds like a dictatorship.
Not after the session has stacked the deck for years with unending anti-PCUSA preaching, propaganda, and communications. This would not be a neutral election, the CRC and session at FPC-SA have poisoned the process altogether. Also, as has been pointed out already, congregations do not have the right to just vote themselves out of a Presbyterian denomination, that is how some denominations operate, but not Presbyterians. They can ask the Presbytery they are a member of to release them, but they must ask using whatever process is defined under the rules they have agreed to operate under – PCUSA or ECO!
…again David, you clearly would be happier at the Baptist church, where everyone can just vote to do whatever they want. Presbyterians, like our national government, use a system with checks and balances. Super majorities are common in our national, state, and local governments for good reasons. In this instance the super majority is protection against a long campaign of coercion by people in power positions at the church to elevate their viewpoint at the expense of people in the church who do not have access to the bully pulpit and the churches communication resources. AND, again – neither the PCUSA or the ECO release congregations by congregational vote – release requires a vote of Presbytery. What you all are trying to do is not legitimate under the rules we have agreed to operate under – so, just admit it and stop the charade!
I appreciate your humor, friend.
In any event, the vote should require a super majority for a decision of this magnitude.
Well said!
Regardless of anything else anyone wants to say, the PCUSA is losing members at an astounding rate. It is people who are the church not buildings and not money. The PCUSA has lost the heart and loyalty of vast swaths of its members. We are no longer held together by commitment to Christ and the faith delivered once for all the saints. We’re only shackled together by property trust and threats of legal action.
The denomination will not survive. It’s days are numbered. It is an unhealthy dysfunctional mess. We’re acting like pharasees obsessed with rules and regulations and procedures. Why can’t somebody act like a grownup and admit it’s time to graciously let congregations freely leave who want to leave. It’s time start showing the love we profess.
Doesn’t your plea to be grown up also cut precisely the other way? Why don’t those disgruntled folks just forgive and forget? Why not just find another church or denomination and leave? Why is it the main demoninations fault and sacrifice to be made if some activist pastors and other members wish to rabble rouse and defect? Let them go if they are so unhappy. They have no right to kick everyone else out because they don’t like a simple human rights vote made by the majority and that’s a majority from the ground up, not top down. Thousands of worshiping, God loving presbyterian members and pastors voting their consciouses after much deliberation and prayer on the matter. They have every right to their peace and unity. The trouble makers need to grow up and get along or just go away in peace. All the anger, greed and manipulations just aren’t Christian.
Much like N.Korea, the people of a dictatorship aren’t free to leave. The unhappy congregates and mutinous pastors can all stop attending or go elsewhere on any given Sunday, which is precisely what they should do if they are really so firm in their convictions. Trying to seize the building/property is simple mutany and theft.
That, much as it would be if your children or house guests decided they didn’t like your rules and took over your house, asking you to leave. It’s a silly concept for both examples. The greed and manipulations of the dissenters is not Christian behavior. It’s simply self righteousness, It’s ego and power, fear and greed.
87.3% voted in favor of disaffiliation.
12.7% were opposed.
Soli Deo Gloria.
I’m not sure of the size of the congregation. One person said it was around 2000. Apparently 1072 voted, so they had a high turnout and a supermajority.
I do not know the current membership total, but the official PCUSA 2013 membership count was 2,123.
Based on that number, the vote count shows a participation rate of slightly more than 50%.
How much of that membership figure is deadwood, as in deceased or inactive and no longer communicating with the church?
FPC SAT Results –
http://fpcsanantonio.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Denominational-Vote-Results.pdf
Donnie, the fact that you believe any of this divisive and rancorous process has brought Glory to God Alone speaks volumes about where your heart is…
Thank you.
And I am so glad it’s over. Reconciliation is going to be tough so prayers are needed. It’s been a hard road. But I strongly feel that ECO affiliation will allow us to get back to the business of saving souls and populating heaven! Thanks to those who prayed.
I know that a speak for a lot of non-members in saying that you are wise indeed to do all that you can to be reconciled with the church members who were in the minority. They will be feeling hurt and wounded, and probably more than a little angry. As you know, there is a time to be firm, and FPC San Antonio has stood firm, but there is also a time to be gentle. Blessings on all of you.
Thank you Donnie Bob. I’m so thankful for all who have prayed and for all who have paid attention to this entire process. I am hopeful that the PCUSA camp understands that our fight has not been a disagreement about politics. It has been a disagreement about the presence of politics. We are charged with sharing the Word.
Does anyone know the average attendance over the few years? That number is probably more indicative of the practicing membership. It’d be interesting to see how the vote turnout compares to that number.
Close to 90%
I believe that Donnie Bob presented facts following the conclusion of a vote. And the condition of “where his heart is” is based on the results? Donnie Bob did not discuss the process. He shared the results of the vote. The process was not enjoyable.
Matt is right here. I was reacting to the vote, not to the process. I believe very much that the outcome was of God, even if the process leading to it was a long and sometimes brutal business.
But hear me on this, Polity Wonk, the time has come for you to stop fighting this battle, and most of all for you to stop personally attacking those with whom you disagree and are angry.
If you are a member of FPC San Antonio, you have some difficult decisions to make about how you will move forward from this point, and I pray that in this matter God will guide your steps.
If like me you are not a member of FPC San Antonio, I am sure that your polity expertise will serve you well as you weigh in at other times and in other places. Sadly, more such battles are sure to come.
According to the PCUSA website average attendance in 2013 was 794. Average attendance for 2014 was not available.
HR….thanks. Appears that 1072 voters to an average attendance of approximately 794 is significant from any perspective.
As a long time fan of FPC San Antonio and its amazing ministry and heritage, I am overjoyed that they are seeking true freedom!
It’s not fear. It’s stewardship. All the greed is from the presbytery that thinks it owns something it did not build. “You shall not steal.” Look up the teaching of that commandment in the Westminster Shorter and Larger Catechisms and be instructed!
The San Antonio Express News said 1,164 of the 2,202 members voted. I did hear from church leadership that they had carefully cleared their roles of people who shouldn’t have been on them in the couple of years prior to the vote.
I am one who will keep praying! The story is not over as God moves His people. Going through discernment at my own church I realized many people came with anger. I had anger toward the GA and national leadership for decisions , politics and decisions made and for putting the battle on the local churches to sort out. Others were angry because their session decided to go into discernment and consider leaving, and then voting and choosing to leave. But the one thing that discernment taught me is that each person needs to look above their own interest to ask “Where is God calling me to be”. It takes the anger out of the equation (to some degree anyway) and allows us to seek God, obey God in fellowship with God. It allows us to accept that some are called differently…..but we should obey God’s call above the emotion and pressure on the ground.
Praying for all.
Acting like grownups is something all sides should do. Acting in a Christ-like manner is even more important. Paul and Barnabas had to separate for a season. When we, in this modern era, find the need to do likewise let us strive to be genuinely and sincerely gracious to each other and (hopefully) lay a groundwork for future reconciliation.
Nothing like giving a lesson on Constitutional guarantees and due process 🙂
Mr. Berry,
If the 85 to 90% of disaffected members left a church, how would those who remain be able to support the church and it’s ministry? I belong to a church with about 300 members. If people do as you suggest and leave, the remaining 30 to 45 people could not keep the doors open. Maintenance, utilities and insurance expenses are formidible.
By your rationale, PC/USA would keep the property, lose the support of the members who left and be stuck with the fixed costs of owning the property. Once the local church runs out of money, what will happen to the property? Will PC/USA or the presbytery step in and pay the bills? I doubt it. Our presbytery has had to cut staff and programs because per capita giving has dropped significantly due to the positions PC/USA has taken on numerous subjects.
The PC/USA position of claiming title to church property and suggesting those who object to it’s false teachings leave, is an act of supreme arrogance and will result in economic suicide of the PC/USA. Do you seriously expect God to bless a body that openly and unashamedly defies Him?
Mr. Berry,
One final thought. You accuse those of us who dare to disagree with PC/USA positions as being motiviated by self righteousness, ego, power, fear and greed. Actually, you are failing to recognize that the person you’re describing as acting under these motivators is yourself and your fellow travellers. Accuse the opposition of something, anything. It’s a tactic Progressives have utilized for years to blur an issue and sway the uninformed.
This is really old news. Why does the Layman keep putting it up as a headline?