A Presbyterian Church (USA) congregation is where I had my first understanding of God and His love for me. From age 7 I have grown up in the Presbyterian church and sought to serve in various capacities. I began my service as a teenager working in the nursery and volunteering with Vacation Bible School at Blacknall Presbyterian in Durham N.C. I attended King College, a PCUSA institution on a PCUSA scholarship, with an eye toward entering the ministry. In fact during college, I became the youth pastor at First Presbyterian in Bristol, Tenn. There I taught high school Sunday school, and was leader of the youth group. I graduated from King with a double major in English and Bible and Religion. I looked at attending Princeton Seminary at that time, but the call was not there, at least not yet.
After college, I settled in Goldsboro, N.C., where I attended First Presbyterian. There I taught high school Sunday school, and assisted with the youth group. Then I began to teach an adult class, and had my first stint as an officer in the PCUSA serving as a deacon.
My career took me to the mountains of North Carolina and I attended First Presbyterian Church of Morganton, N.C., where I began to teach adult Sunday school. In Morganton, I worked at Broughton Hospital where I met the Rev. Phillip King, a Baptist minister and chaplain at Broughton. He encouraged me and asked me to fill in for him, my first experience in the pulpit.
In addition to being the chaplain at Broughton, he was also pastor of a small Presbyterian church called Oakwood Presbyterian in Lenoir, N.C. The people there were very friendly and welcoming. I filled in for Rev. King a few times and they encouraged me to attend. I joined Oakwood Presbyterian, and I also began to attend the Presbytery of Western North Carolina School for the Laity.
I was elected and ordained as an elder at Oakwood Presbyterian and served in the unofficial capacity of associate pastor. Rev. King was semi-retired and traveled a great deal so I was in the pulpit many times a year including a six month stint as chaplain at Broughton Hospital a State psychiatric institution. After completing the Commissioned Lay Pastor program I was called to Conley Memorial Presbyterian Church in Marion, N.C. I served for more than seven years as the solo pastor of the church. That included everything from preaching to plumbing. Meanwhile Oakwood, a church that I held dear in my heart was struggling. They were struggling financially, they were struggling with pastors with agendas and more importantly they were struggling spiritually/theologically.
Finally, I understood my call was back at Oakwood. I had served Conley faithfully, and went with their blessing.
I have served Oakwood for the last two years as solo pastor. I teach Sunday school, preach Sunday morning service and lead a Bible study on Wednesday nights as well as other pastoral duties such as visitation.
I clearly remember the joy I had as I administered the sacraments for the first time. A thrill that still has not left me and is there each time I administer Communion or Baptism. It is incredible knowing that God’s grace is inherent in the services whether the response is there or not. It is as the Holy Spirit bestows faith, these acts of grace can bear greater fruit, just as the Word of God is constant though fruitless without the work of the Holy Spirit.
In addition to my ministry at Oakwood I have another God-Called vocation. I have a full time job as the Senior Services Director of Avery County. I oversee programs such as Home-Delivered and Congregate meals; In-Home Aide Services; Volunteer Avery; the Senior Center, and much more.
In my life in the Presbyterian Church I have encountered and been influenced by many great men and women. Rev. Ed Henegar of Blacknall Presbyterian Church is the first pastor I really remember; Rev. Allan Poole, also of Blacknall Presbyterian Church; Dr. Errol Rohr, chaplain of King College; Dr. Richard Ray, First Presbyterian Church of Bristol and professor at King College; Dr. Richard Burnett, First Presbyterian Church of Bristol and professor at King College; many professors at King College, and so many more.
I owe much to the PCUSA. I was baptized in the PCUSA, educated by the PCUSA, and commissioned as a lay pastor in the PCUSA. So it pains me greatly to have to consider parting ways with the PCUSA. It pains me more than I can easily express in words.
However, one thing remains. “We must obey God rather than men.” (Acts 5:29 – ESV), and I personally must obey God rather than to submit myself to a denomination that has left Biblical truth for heretical but politically correct teachings.
I have tried to live in peace and unity with the PCUSA for many years as it seemed to drift further and further from purity. I hoped to be part of the voice within the PCUSA that dissented with the wave of non-Biblical anthropology that seems to be sweeping through our denomination.
Now, it is no longer actions of the General Assembly that I disagree with, it is the spiritual state exhibited by those actions.
Issues such as the stances on homosexuality and abortion are all red herrings to the real issue which is the substitution of anthropology for theology. The General Assembly is not listening to God Himself as revealed in Scriptures, but instead is creating a god based on the projection of their flawed human minds. In a recent pastoral letter to the congregations of the PCUSA regarding the General Assemblies action on marriage was the statement that it was “the result of deep discernment to hear God’s voice and discern God’s will.”
I find that hard to swallow when in the very same letter there is referenced 2 Corinthians 5 as concerns the ministry of reconciliation. It is taken completely out of context of Paul as a whole, and even out of context of the very same letter. Paul wrote in Galatians 3:28 and similarly in other letters, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (ESV) Paul was committed to the proclamation of the Gospel and that unreservedly. But the reconciliation has already occurred through Christ, and we are to proclaim this reconciliation through Christ to all peoples. This is a restoration of favor to all peoples. We are not called to reconcile professed sin to the Church. We are not called to reconcile the Church to the world and in doing so compromise our very faith and belief system. But, that is exactly what calling sin good does and the letter from the GA encourages.
When writing back and forth to a current student at Princeton Theological Seminary on the latest vote of the General Assembly he wrote, “I would argue that holding the revelation of the past as recorded in Scripture above God’s continued revelation is just as dangerous.”
That statement is heresy, and is exactly the mindset that is destroying the PCUSA. The statement goes against the principles on which the PCUSA was founded and which it professes in its creeds and confessions. The idea of continuous revelation would not put us in good company theologically and goes against our most basic beliefs as illustrated in the five SOLAS. Unfortunately, it seems that this is the path the PCUSA has chosen.
It is a case of projecting our own belief system on God, and while continuous revelation may not be a part of our official theological system, it is prevalent in the PCUSA as demonstrated by the continual voting against God’s revealed Word in Scripture.
We have given up the Word of God for feelings. We are giving up our birthright for a mess of pottage. At a recent presbytery meeting the word conscience was thrown around all too easily and out of context. We were encouraged again and again to vote our conscience. Our book of order does NOT call us to “vote our conscience”. It instead says:
G 1.0301 (1) (a) That “God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are in anything contrary to his Word, or beside it, in matters of faith or worship.”
and
G 1.0307 the Holy Scriptures are the only rule of faith and manners; that no Church governing body ought to pretend to make laws to bind the conscience in virtue of their own authority; and that all their decisions should be founded upon the revealed will of God. Now though it will easily be admitted that all synods and councils may err, through the frailty inseparable from humanity, yet there is much greater danger from the usurped claim of making laws than from the right of judging upon laws already made,
But now we say I feel, not I believe. We sell our souls for some falsely implanted idea that we are masters of our own ultimate destiny. We have forgotten that Christ died not only to save us for God, but FROM God. We have forgotten our God is not a tame God that we can force through hoops. God is self-existent, infinite, eternal, incomprehensible, supreme, sovereign, transcendent, the one and only God, majestic, present everywhere, all-knowing, all-powerful, unchanging, holy, wise, truthful, loving, good, faithful, merciful, kind, patient, just, righteous, wrathful, jealous and full of grace. He is all those things, but the General Assembly has in its actions shown they do not believe half of it. They have made God into a lap dog.
For these reasons I am strongly considering formally asking that my name be removed from the rolls of the Presbytery of Western North Carolina’s list of commissioned ruling elders. As such I understand that I would also be giving up my privilege of serving God as moderator of the session of Oakwood, and administering the Sacraments. Those things in and of themselves causes me such pain that I was almost willing to swallow the truth. But, I cannot. I cannot because nothing is worth the cost of my soul.
Philip R. Adams, commissioned ruling elder
Oakwood Presbyterian Church
Presbytery of Western North Carolina
Along with his letter, Adams included the following 12 theses:
1. When our Lord and Master, Jesus the Christ, spoke of marriage He spoke of it exclusively as between a man and a woman. (Matthew 19:1-12)
2. The words of our Lord and Master, Jesus the Christ, in Matthew 19:1-12 cannot be understood without accepting the teaching is directly rooted in Creation.
3. The author of creation, Jesus the Christ, alludes to Genesis 1 and quotes from Genesis 2 in Matthew 19:1-12.
4. In Matthew 19:1-12, Jesus the Christ alludes to Genesis 1:27 which says, “So God created mankind in His own image, in the image of God He created them; male and female He created them.”
5. Jesus the Christ quotes Genesis 2:24 8787in Matthew 19:1-12 saying: “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
6. Yet the meaning is not merely restricted to the immediate question of the Pharisees concerning divorce, but an affirmation of marriage as presented in the Old Testament and in Jewish tradition.
7. “The moral law doth forever bind all, as well justified persons as others to the obedience thereof.” (Westminster Confession of Faith XIX.5)
8. Moral obligations and commandments which Jesus the Christ does not overturn or reinterpret are moral obligations and commands for the Apostolic Christian Church.
9. The moral law is not limited to the Decalogue but encompasses Biblical teaching from Genesis through the Pauline Epistles.
10. The Holy Scriptures consistent teaching on human sexuality in both the Old and New Testament is that the only sexually intimate behavior approved by God is between a man and a woman within the bond of marriage.
11. The 221st General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA) in issuing an Authoritative Interpretation that directly contradicts the Constitution of the PCUSA – has apostatized and rebelled against the Presbyterian Church (USA) standards, protocols and due order.
12. The 221st General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA) in issuing an Authoritative Interpretation that directly contradicts Scripture has apostatized and rebelled against Jesus the Christ.
48 Comments. Leave new
Mr. Adams, may God strengthen you to stay strong and to obey Him and not to capitulate to the earthly rulers of the PCUSA.
The only part of the book of order that applies these days is one paragraph on one page, and we all know what that is.
My departure began when God revealed to me the idolization of this institution.
The opening lines of this article echo that same realization.
Perhaps Jesus is calling us to lay down these idols (whether good or bad) in order to follow Him fully.
My wife Jean and I are currently going through this same sort of journey. In fact, except for the skill you have in writing such a long statement, I thought I was reading my statement. My God bless you on your journey.
As have I. I am an elder as well as one of only a small number of Certified Church Musicians (CCM) in the country. I am torn as to what I do next and where I can go. My church has left me, but others are in the same way. There is nowhere to go. So I serve a PCUSA church, but I am not a part of them. It’s a job for me now, not the calling I feel it has always been. It breaks my heart. I know how you feel. I, too, am lost.
Our church just went through the dismissal process from PCUSA and have become ECO. Some of the members were long time over 50 year members of the church. What I found interesting hearing a few times from long time PCUSA members was “Joining ECO feels like we are actually going back to what PCUSA used to be and originally stood for”. So there was less a feeling of loss regarding “PCUSA” itself, but more an excitement to get back to what they felt PCUSA used to be. So it’s more of a returning to the original vision and what they remembered PCUSA used to stand for and be like. I thought that was an interesting and refreshing way to look at it from those who have been long term PCUSA members. It may be called “ECO” now and not “PCUSA” but it is Presbyterian as they remember it and want to get back to being.
How is Princeton affected? I hope it had the foresight to see this coming and divest itself from entanglements. Otherwise, we might be seeing another Jesuit institution in process.
Mr. Adams, this is a beautifully written letter. Thank you.
your thoughtful letter expresses the deep feelings of many who had to choose to part with the Pcusa. I hope it gives others the strength to seek peace and Truth elsewhere. my entire extended family quit various PCUSA churches and are spiritually fulfilled in biblically oriented churches.
What took you so long?
Like most on the liberal left Judith has it wrong. Maybe, it is intentionally so.
The leftist agenda in this country has strongly attacked the Christian church and you, I believe, are part of them. The agenda includes dismissing the Bible as the authority of the church…so much more than the gay agenda you speak of. The takeover of the PC (USA) is as much a takeover of the assets of the PC (USA) as it is an attack on God’s word. It is being shown by the monies flowing to Hezbollah from the PC (USA) and to other liberal groups that are also responsible for attacking the Christian church. The simple little comments like yours on this and other websites only show how weak your arguments are and what you want people to believe about those of us who are leaving the PC (USA). Former and soon to be former members of PC understand the difference between God’s word and what you(pl) on the left would want the uninformed to believe….and it is NOT about homosexuality!
Oh gedi. Such an intelligent response and so little time.
Authority of scripture, huh? I’ll refer you the Book of Confessions, part I of the constitution of our church. The authority of scripture has not been dismissed far from it. Whoever gave you such an idea? ‘The Layman’ perhaps?
The Bible also says the world is flat. Does that make it true? Personally I wouldn’t expect to read a 21st century understanding of astrophysics in the bible any more than I would expect to see a 21st century understanding of human sexuality, evolutionary biology, or orthodontia….need I go on? Are all those things heretical in your mind? What a limited future lies before you.
Is your new-and-improved Presbyterian church taking a hard line on divorced women who remarry? And have more children? That has a far more immediate and catastrophic effect on the lives of families than gay marriage EVER will. What about gluttony? Obesity is reaching epidemic proportions in this country, is literally killing people and costing the taxpayers a lot more than LGBT acceptance ever will. Is your church going to persecute the fat people. There are very explicit scriptures in the New Testament about both those sins. Pot lucks just got a lot less fun. Darn.
No rational person takes the Bible literally in its entirety. No one. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. Period.
As to whether or not PC(USA) sends money to Hezbollah, you are going to need to produce some evidence to that effect PDQ, because that is a pretty libelous statement you just made. Just making conversation, of course, but whatever gave you such an idea anyway? Let me guess….’The Layman.’ While it is true that someone from PC(USA) may have had a meeting with them one time, that certainly doesn’t constitute funding. Big difference. God is in the details dude, but go ahead and keep trying to make hay out of that 10 year old story. There are plenty of people out there ready and willing to believe anything and everything that supports whatever they’ve already made up their minds to believe.
One born every minute they say.
**No rational person takes the Bible literally in its entirety. No one. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. Period.**
Look who is calling the kettle black. When you point one finger, such as accusing one of being delusional, there at three pointing back to you.
Every world of the Holy Bible is true, and when taken literally, you will see the history of redemption is being taught. How else does one become a born again believer with the Holy Spirit opening the heart of the sinner to receive Christ as Savior and Lord?
Romans 10:9 and 10 is the evidence along with John 3:16, taken literally.
Evidence? Still waiting for some evidence to support that Hezbollah slur.
Waiting patiently…..
There are people who go around repeating lies other people tell them. That is just ignorance and is excusable to an extent.
Then there are others who know what the truth really is but tell something different for the purpose of manipulating people and situations. There is no excuse for that. None whatsoever.
Ms. Judy- Why don´t you ask the folks who got fired from Louisville office after they went to visit Hessbolah around 2003 or 2004 ? They will tell you exactly why they were fired. Louisville had to do something to save their necks also because Churches would stop support PCUSA Global Mission. Unfortunately, these fats burocrats who did not know how to work or do mission because blind folks like you put them in there and continue to encourage them to destroy PCUSA. If you want to know the truth: The only organization which is still function in the PCUSA is the Board Of Pension which has competent people running it otherwise retire minsiters and mission workers would have been out in the cold if we wait for these farisees and scribes to come a rescue.
So….you’re morally outraged because they got fired? You lost me there then went into hyperbole hyperbole hyperbole hyperbole. Only…always…never. Only I know the truth. Any evidence to the contrary is just propaganda and lies. Don’t listen to THEM only listen to ME. That way you won’t clutter up you mind with more than one point of view. Blah blah blah. I am SO bored with this. Aren’t you? There are so many more worthwhile things we could and SHOULD be doing.
Extreme ideologues typically reduce themselves and their opposites to stereotypes…caricatures if you will. Before you know it, the whole world is a big cartoon. Nuance goes out the window. No one can get anything done so they just wall themselves off from the world with “like minded” people. That way all your time is free to sit around thinking grandiose thoughts about yourselves. (God told me this and has a special plan for that…..) This is the spiritual/intellectual equivalent of masturbation. Harmless and healthy in moderation, but dysfunctional when it becomes the sole focus of your life.
What is mission anyway? I was raised to believe it is the church serving the world, not the other way around. We help people who are not in a position to do anything for us in return, such as joining our church and pledging a godly amount of money to support the typical program-heavy church where over 85% of the budget goes to payroll……worse than the Red Cross or United Way….but never mind that. There is talk of mission on a regular basis of course, but it’s small talk. Youth mission trip there. Soup kitchen there. Enough to keep up appearances and assuage our guilt for the charmed lives we all live (in relative peace, security and comfort). Born on third base but believing we hit a triple, as they say.
The problem is, we live in a big world with big problems. Big institutions are what we need to meet these challenges (tsunamis, ebola outbreaks, global terrorism)….dysfunctional and out of fashion as administrative prowess seems to be these days.
If siting down with terrorists, Samaritans, tax collectors, or prostitutes helps bring peace to the hell on Earth known as the Middle East, it’s worth a shot, I say. It is what Jesus would do….and did. Look it up.
Ms. Judith- You are a frustrated Liberal left wing who can not accept others explanation. You came on this blog to attack the writer of this letter and other folks. Ms. Judith – You are just a rebelious person who is mad at the world. Have you visited a drug addict in the prison and helped him/her on his/her feet. ? Have you led the poor who did not have a job and found him/her a job.? Have you loved your neighbors as your ownself.You came up posting attacking the person who wrote the article , this , truly showed you are an ignorant and a selfish person. If you can not say good thing , you should just keep your mouth shut. You are a typical liberal person who doesn´t know what love is ( love does not mix with sin) or who to believe ( Believe and obey not only believe and doesanything you want ). You act like a two year old who likes to throw tantrum when you don´t get your way. Don´t you have a job to do or you still living with your mother´s basement?.You show a lot of frustration with your answer. LOL. Could be that you need some counselling service or could be you need a psychiatrist.? For your information, I am retired now and I had served the church and its people for 40 years. I relized that I did not do everything but the things that I did I was very happy that I could do. I have a good idea what category of a person who you fit in.Find a job and stop ranting around will you?
troll alert as pertains to Judith.
ignore them and they go away into their darkness and faithlessness.
What is telling in all these comments is the lack of civility.
You are not alone. About 2.5 million members have left over the years.
How is that you only just noticed the apostasy?
Thanks for saying this before I had to. 😉
Very nice letter. It looks like you made one person pretty irate. But the truth does that to people. Heck, Jesus was crusified for truth. Thy word is truth, says the Scriptures. The PCUSA seminaries are teaching all kinds of crap these days, so I am not surprised about the the Princeton student making up his own theology or simply reiterating someone else’s ungodly principles. You are not alone, my friend. I have been to King College more than once and do not live far from there.
Dear Elder Adams:
I invite you to consider the Evangelical Presbyterian Church.
http://www.epc.org/
I think you will find that our views are in accord with yours.
The church locator lists 14 congregations within 50 miles of Lenoir, NC.
http://www.epc.org/church-locator/
Perhaps your whole congregation would like to come along.
http://www.epc.org/joining-the-epc/
We have grown from 180 congregations in 2007 to more than 500 today.
George Hill
you make an excellent point about the divorced and remarried, which goes totally against what the Bible teaches. it is considered to be a mortal sin, worthy of eternal condemnation, only under specific circumstances of annulment can a Christian remarriage be recognized valid. the presbyterian approach to this subject; ignore it, live and let live, don’t worry be happy, and my all time favorite, it’s all about ‘love’. this mortal sin is so much a part of the fiber of almost all souls here, it’s virtually impossible to have a truthful conversation here, about anything.
My first thought on reading this was: Are you kidding? After everything that’s happened in the PCUSA, you’re only CONSIDERING leaving? What would it take to make you commit, and leave?
But of course that’s not fair. Leaving the PCUSA is a decision for each individual to make in his or her own time. And for many, it can be a very difficult thing to do, for various reasons. I left in 2006. But my mother, for example, who feels exactly as I do regarding the damaging and unscriptural changes wrought by denominational leaders, will not leave. Why? Because she’s in her late 80s, has been a member of her congregation for over 50 years, and has lifelong friends there whom she loves and depends on. She doesn’t have the will or strength to leave. So, again, it’s not my place to tell someone else they must leave.
Praise the Lord
More on J. Gresham Machen below, but first.
Dan and others like him may be on the right path, but it is a path that does not end with the ECO and other’s like it. The ECO as a safety net for the complacent is only deception. For God’s chosen people who are encouraged to be apart of practicing sanctified denominational movements from PCUSA to the ECO and others like the ECO I lovingly pray to our Sovereign God that He will enable you to look into other denominations such as the OPC, PCA, or RPCNA, etc…. The ECO and others like it are “feel goods” for getting out of the PCUSA, but the ECO and others like it may make some people complacent and think they are back to “God’s Word” when in reality they are not. Do not get me wrong, it is good that this kind of discussion and movement is out there. There is a sense of reform and the need to get away from the PCUSA which by God is the right way to go, but I humbly suggest to not stop there and keep searching the ways of God in His reveal written Word.
What the PCUSA “used to be and originally stood for” in terms of what the “over 50 year members of the church” say is not helpful at all and needs to be rebuked:
J. Gresham Machen “Christianity and Liberalism”
I encourage those within the PCUSA and those like it – ECO – to pray and hear God’s loving counsel in His written Word that He may bless you with further sanctified discernment.
God Bless
Dear Mr. Adams,
I invite you to worship with the congregation of Faith Presbyterian Church in Morganton, NC on the next Lord’s Day. We are an Evangelical, Reformed, Confessional, and Presbyterian congregation of the PCA. More information can be found here:
http://www.morfaith.org/
Although we are not perfect, we strive to submit all aspects of our lives to the authority of Scripture. Several of our members are from a PCUSA background, so there would be much shared experience. I pray that the Lord Jesus would use you to bring greater purity and peace to His Church.
Cordially,
David Pope
Why is this a “to the barricades” issue? Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus ever address the issue of gay marriage. Nor does Paul, nor James, nor Peter. So, in the absence of direct teaching, we all grapple, in our imperfect ways, for some understanding based in scripture. But Matthew 19 is a strange peg upon which to hang this argument. A few key points:
First, this passage is really about divorce, not marriage, unless you focus on the remarriage element. And Jesus is pretty tough here in ways that no (or very few) Protestants are today, meaning that we all tend to contextualize Jesus’ teaching in this passage–more so than, say, Catholics. Asa divorced man who would like to one day remarry, I’m thankful for that, if also humbled.
Second, this passage appears (a) right after Jesus’ long multi-parable teaching in Matt. 18 on how God requires forgiveness and will harshly punish the unforgiving, and (b) right before Jesus’ encounter with the rich young man who fails because, like so many born into privilege, he cannot truly see beyond those privileges and renounce them to follow Christ. So the larger textual context seems to be one suggesting that we need to stop clinging so tightly to our own worldly status markers and forgive those who stand beneath us in the eyes of the world (if not Christ). Gays would seem to fit that latter description, making the anti-gay traditionalists look more like Pharisees here. Galatians 3:28 seems especially apt.
Third, that context ties closely into Matt 19:1-12 insofar as the Pharisees demand that Jesus respect “traditional” patriarchal marriage as reflected in the Torah and backed by the authority of Moses. But Jesus, using his typical moral jujitsu throws them a wrench, telling them that Moses’s specific policy was by no means an absolute but was just adapted to the circumstances of his times. The problem, for Jesus, is that the old rules are overly patriarchal and allow husbands, in an asymmetric way, to divorce their wives and kick them to the curb for trivial reasons. Jesus adopts instead a non-traditional model of egalitarian pair bonding, but finds creative scriptural justification for doing so. So rather than reinforcing the expectations of religious authorities, Jesus embraces a modernizing and feminist spin on an old institution (we might also note here that OT marriage is complex and fluid, often allowing polygamy, for example). Then, a few chapters later in Matt 22:29-31, Jesus tells the Pharisees to lighten up since there is no marriage in either heaven or the resurrection.
In other words, it’s not hard to imagine Jesus having more sympathy for gays wanting to pair bond in marriage than for the religious traditionalists who bring down an unforgiving hammer and assert their own privileges, confusing heterosexual social status with following God. For Jesus, “Love thy neighbor” always came first and rules needed to be reinterpreted in that light.
I respect all those who disagree here. These are big changes, and I’ve come to my current views gradually and fitfully. But I do believe strongly that God stands, as always, with the oppressed and the suffering, and that those of us who are privileged in the eyes of the world should think long and hard before harshly judging others or splitting the church apart over matters of difficult and uncertain interpretation. Patience, humility, and forgiveness should be our guides. Mr. Adams, I hope you will reconsider abandoning the PCUSA. We may yet have things to teach each other.
Robb,
With all due respect to the overall point of your comment, which I respect, to assert that ” Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus ever address the issue of gay marriage…” I think highlights the entire point of the letter. Jesus Christ, as the Gospel of John tells us, is the eternal Word of God. Every single word of Scripture, both implicit and explicit, are the words of Christ. The creation narrative, is the work of Christ. The “red letters” are the same as the “black letters”; to imply anything else, restricts the Godhead, which we profess to be the same in substance, equal in power and glory. You may argue that my comment makes your point, however I say: Let God be true, and everyman a liar.
I have always loved the Presbyterian church. I served there; played organ; met my husband there; had the greatest youth group experience…..got married in a Presbyterian church….. I saw them beginning to drift away in the 60’s when they stood for Angela Davis. The homosexual issue was of great concern. However, their latest decision concerning Israel gives me great concert for the whole body. “I will bless those who bless Israel; I will curse those who curse Israel”. I fear the Presbyterian church is in great danger from the hand of God. Praying for those I know that I care for there are there. God, please bring conviction and wisdom.
John, point taken, but I’m afraid we have very different views of scripture. You (along with much of the PLC) seem to embrace what’s sometimes called a “divine dictation” theory where the Bible is a unified set of authoritarian rules, handed down by God, read literally, and enforced by religious institutions to keep all us sinners in line.
But that’s not how Jesus himself used scripture, and he consistently frustrates the Pharisee demand for just such a legalistic moral code. Think about what Jesus says about Sabbath law–he’s really opposed to the hard line advocates of Deuteronomy & its many rules. Same for Paul, especially on issues like circumcision, dietary laws, etc. Jesus commonly broke the religious rules (OT) to embrace the actual person at risk, the untouchables more than anyone. When you talk about all of creation being fulfilled in Christ what that means is that God’s promise was implicit from the start, even if subject to frequent misinterpretation by his own people, tempted as we are to put traditional authority above loving humanity.
To bring this all back to marriage, the laws you’re referring to don’t come from Jesus or Paul. They’re not really even Old Testament (see my polygamy argument above). They’re just our own conventions. Maybe they’re based partly on scripture or grounded in genuine moral quandries, but I’d be very careful before directly attributing those rules to God or Jesus. Especially when Jesus himself NEVER addresses this issue. Jesus and Paul both preached over and over about the dangers of turning our own social structures (whether Roman or Jewish) into divine writ. Those of us who support gay marriage do not think we are jumping on a pop culture bandwagon. We believe that we are faithfully following Jesus’ teaching by extending the moral benefits of marriage to a group long seen as untouchable. Maybe we’re wrong, but we’ve at least got a serious claim to make.
Matthew 15:1-3, “Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, ‘Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.’ And He (Jesus) answered and said to them, ‘Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?”
It is not the Pharisees and scribes that did God’s commandments (Deuteronomy, etc…), but rather Jesus says the Pharisees and scribes transgress the commandment of God (Deuteronomy, etc…) for the sake of their tradition (man-made). Jesus quotes from Isaiah in verse 9 in the same conversation, “But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.” It was the Pharisees who tried to falsely teach man’s doctrines. It was Jesus declaring their error in transgressing the commandments of God.
As to the immorality and thus godlessness of gay desires and marriage:
(Romans 1:25-28) “For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper.”
Also 1 Timothy 1:9-10 God groups homosexuals with immoral men, kidnappers, people who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, etc…. They are (verse 10 and 11) “contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God”
Have a love and desire for them to repent and believe. Yet do not love their rebellion against God. Hate their wickedness. Do not lovingly desire homosexuals and other unbelievers to continue in their unbelief. Rather lovingly pray for their salvation. Pray not for them to go to eternal hell, but pray that God will make them repent and that God will give them faith in Jesus Christ so they will be “joint heirs with Christ” (Romans 8:17)
The author feels pain about the possibility of leaving the PCUSA. However, many who leave this denomination feel relief. There are actually pro-life denominations out there that don’t give abortion coverage to pastors. Plus You can take your family to church and associate with people who support Isreal.
You have it correct.
Please read Francis A. Schaeffer’s book if not already, “The Great Evangelical Disaster.” He has called it correct.
We left last year the pcusa with regret, yet, we pray for the pcusa.
Left the pcusa, and now a member of the EPC with joy.
Nicholas, thanks for the response.
You may want to take a look back at Matt. 15, however. It tends to prove the point I make above. The Pharisees, who claim to be defenders of scripture and tradition (like today’s conservative Christians) are not nearly so righteous as they claim to be. They get obsessed with minor issues of ritual purity (hand washing) that are more matters of their own conventions than of true law: “So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God.” As Jesus argues, true righteousness involves the human heart and its disposition toward others: “Hear and understand, not what goes into the mouth defiles a man, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man. . . . But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.” More simply, we sin when we hate or harm others, including when we speak ill of them unjustly. This sounds more like a condemnation of the anti-gay marriage forces than the other way around. Not to paint with too broad a brush–since I know this is not true across the board–but from the outside what you guys say about gays and even “liberals” (see elsewhere on this string) often seems pretty hateful. Meanwhile, it’s hard to see how married gay couples actually “harm” anyone else in any tangible way.
OK, so we also had a pretty good list of sins there, not including homosexuality, but we don’t usually go to the barricades over those things (fornication, false witness, etc.). The Bible is filled with such lists. So you bring in the passages from Romans and I Timothy, which is necessary for your argument because Jesus himself NEVER has a cross word about homosexuality. And you’re right to see those passages and condemning sexual immorality. The strength of your case is that sex and morality are necessarily connected, something that some on the left have trouble appreciating, and the Bible clearly argues for sexual restraint. But why make homosexuality a special case? Notice also that Paul uses the example above primarily as a METAPHOR for the natural vs. unnatural, in particular for how even Gentiles should have some knowledge of right and wrong, even without scripture. FWIW, Paul may be wrong about what behaviors qualify as “natural”–we know a good bit more about sexuality today than first century Jews did.
But Paul follows with a longer and much more inclusive list: “full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.” Are we going to kick out all the gossips? I’ll confess to a decent amount of insolence, haughtiness, and foolishness myself. I’m not alone, however: your PLC conservatives certainly look haughty, heartless, and boastful (strife? deceit?). Of course, we’re all condemned here, which is Paul’s point. As he says in 2:1: “Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.” That’s pretty tough language, and it implicates all of us, which is why we need faith. It is also why we need to be more forgiving toward others and what we perceive to be their sins. Gays are no different than anyone else: “For God shows no partiality” (Romans 2:11).
I could go on. Romans 13 has a really great passage condemning those who whine about the government and protest against paying taxes (Tea Party?). Jesus, of course, saves his harshest words for the self-righteous and for those who would ignore the plight of the hungry, the sick, the stranger. All of which implicates contemporary conservatives. But no one, including me, wants to purge those folks from the church. We all need redemption and grace. I look forward to a day when my gay friends and my conservative brothers can sit next to one another in the same pew, share their respective struggles, and walk together in Christ. Swords into ploughshares, you know,
Robb says, “Think about what Jesus says about Sabbath law–he’s really opposed to the hard line advocates of Deuteronomy & its many rules. Same for Paul, especially on issues like circumcision, dietary laws, etc. Jesus commonly broke the religious rules (OT)”
There are many issues you brought up even in these couple sentences in your earlier post. Aside from the dietary laws and circumcision which are other topics, what I am focusing on is your comment that Jesus opposed Deuter. and broke the OT rules. Clearly scripture does not say Jesus opposed Deuter. for that is what Jesus is accusing the Pharisees and scribes of doing. Jesus in fact says the Pharisees and scribes transgress the commandments of God. Jesus accuses them of following after the traditions of men and opposing the commandments of God. Jesus tells them they do not worship Him (v.9), but instead follow the traditions of men. As it is written:
But Jesus says to the Pharisees and scribes, ” And He (Jesus) answered and said to them, ‘Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?”
Jesus accused the Pharisees of opposing Deuter. and breaking OT rules, but you say Jesus opposed Deuter. and breaking OT rules. I think the text speaks clearly as to what it says.
God groups homosexuals with murderers in that 1 Timothy passage. Again it is clearly written in the text itself and then God says that homosexuality and murderers are, “contrary to sound teaching, according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God.”
Clearly homosexuals like all people are sinners and need to repent and believe. If people do not read the scriptures and let God speak for Himself in His written Word, then people will not know what they need to repent of and what they need to believe in.
Titus 2:13-14 “Our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.”
Nicholas, nice move! I love how you yada yada through the NT teaching on Sabbath rules, circumcision, and dietary restrictions as if they don’t completely dismantle your case. Looking back broadly at the books of Moses, there are countless prohibitions we Christians ignore, and rightfully so (seed planting, beard trimming, blended fabric clothes, tattoos, shellfish, stoning the psychics!). When Jesus accuses the Pharisees of not following God’s law, what he means is that they have failed to love God and love thy neighbor, which is what all the little rules should come back to but often do not (Matt 22: 34-40). Which, again, is exactly the point I’ve made above. I have yet to hear an argument for how hating on gays simply for being gay can be construed as “loving thy neighbor.” Jesus always saw the forest, you guys just seem to howl at trees.
The church of the Son of God Our Lord Jesus Christ is the spiritual Israel. God’s true people come from every nation, tribe and tongue.
The Bible teaches that The church of the Son of God Our Lord Jesus Christ is the spiritual Israel. God’s true people come from every nation, tribe and tongue. The Israel God speaks of is the spiritual Israel, not the modern day land of Israel.
The original land of Israel is no more, it was destroyed in A.D. 70. The current designation called ‘Israel’ is another entity. It is not the Israel spoken of in the Bible. Only those who repent of sin and profess belief in The Son of God Our Lord Jesus Christ are God’s blessed people.
Modern day Israelites are free to join the church, but only can do so by repenting of sin and the professing of belief in The Lord Jesus Christ, the same way any other person does.
You’re only NOW considering leaving the PCUSA?? At this point, why bother?
Just read this letter and felt the letter was about me. I grew up in the PCUSA, taught Sunday School for 27 years and found myself enrolled in the Commissioned Lay Pastor program, for informational purposes originally. The more I studied the more I felt called to serve. I was with a great group of students with the majority of our instructors very liberal in theology. I had finished my classes and within 2 months had my own church. I served as pastor for this church for 3 years and 3 months before I felt compelled to resign this past October. The homosexual issue is just the final “straw” and not the basis of my reason for leaving the PCUSA. I also notified presbytery and my home church of my leaving and the reasons for leaving. Got absolutely no response from either. The PCUSA is no longer a true church of Jesus Christ. They hide much of what they are doing and the majority of church members are completely unaware. To follow Christ, I and my wife have left and now are in “the wilderness” while we await God’s direction.
Thanks for saying that, Richard Hedren.,
i can probably say a little something to help understand what goes on with this. when i left PCUSA, i was a cradle PCUSA, over age 50, it wasn’t the family ties or the history that was hard to leave, it was the friends i was leaving behind. the natural inclination was to either want to stay with them, thinking i could help them, or take them with me. it was only after a few years that i realized the sad truth, i was not called to leave as a group, i was called individually, it was very much a lonely painful individual walk out the door. for me it came down to a choice between Jesus or friends and family. Jesus was patient with me, ‘talked’ to me every day for months on end, sending me little signs and indications He was with me, otherwise i don’t know that i would have had the strength to ‘just walk away’. it’s not that easy, even if you know the truth.
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their clients the things they want to know. Typically,
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everyone or two years.
And I have long term goals, like feed Aktai’Parapon and.
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