By Alva James-Johnson, The Ledger-Enquirer (Georgia).
A proposal for First Presbyterian Church of Columbus, Ga., to separate from the Presbyterian Church (USA) failed Sunday by eight votes.
The 900-member congregation, which has been divided over gay marriage and other doctrinal issues, voted 266 to 146 in favor of the measure. But the number fell short of the 274 votes needed for dismissal from the denomination, which required a two-thirds vote.
Some members were seeking to separate from the national denomination, which has become more liberal about same-sex marriage and other doctrinal issues in recent years. They had hoped to join the ECO: A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians, a new denomination formed out of churches that have separated from the national church.
Doctrinal differences with PCUSA, the largest Presbyterian denomination in America, escalated in June 2014 when the General Assembly approved an amendment in the Book of Order that allows ministers to marry gay couples in jurisdictions where such marriages are legally permitted. Some members also disagreed with the denomination’s decision to divest from companies doing business with Israel and they were disappointed when a motion to identify essential tenets was defeated.
The marriage amendment has since been ratified by a majority of the denomination’s presbyteries, which are regional governing bodies throughout the organization.
A total of 412 members voted Sunday at a special meeting held directly after the congregation’s 11 a.m. service. Before the vote, a motion was made for First Presbyterian’s “dismissal to another Reformed body of its choosing.” Then members representing both sides of the debate lined up to express their views.
Related article: First Presbyterian Church votes today on proposal to leave denomination
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Condolences to a congregation that will lose their building if they stay faithful to Christ and shame on those who exchanged Christ’s cross for the world.
And more than half the members of the congregation didn’t even care enough to show up and vote? Or is this a congregation that hasn’t cleaned its membership rolls in years, and doesn’t really have 900 members?
In any case, the very, very difficult, but appropriate, thing for the 266 to do is to walk out the doors, find a temporary place to worship, and start a new congregation, leaving the property to the 146 and the presbytery to which the 146 affirmed allegiance.
Yep seen this movie before, people who have not darkened the door of the church in years show up to defeat this, so when the come crawling back to have a funeral or a wedding, charge them double.
You’re probably right.
A good rule of thumb in politics is that you never allow anything to come before a vote, until the outcome is more or less assured. That’s how the PCUSA plays the book, time for evangelicals to so the same.
In this case, and in a few recent others featured on the site, votes for dissolution, relocation, denomination departure and brought before the floor or the congregation, prior to hard work of organization, leadership, and management of the process to provide an overwhelming majority case for such. The fact that in this situation a goodly number did not even show up for a vote says that the books were way out of review or the faction in favor of disunion was either not prepared or not ready for such.
Either way this is not so much a plurality for departure from the PCUSA as it is a garden variety church schism over theology, happens all the time and it never ends well for either side in the conflict.
This type of decision will cause deep pain within a local church body. In today’s secular changing world, we need “strong” Bodies of Christ and not “split” ones. There is to much at stake. We need to pray for this congregation and all congregations.Lord in your mercy–
Mark–
That is an unnecessary comment as it does not provide any perspective other than to dig a comment that in actuality a valid point.
For too long Christendom minded communities have idolized an edifice, and I believe that the American church needs a drastic methodological change as it has lost its place of stature and cultural influence.
We need to embrace a new era emerging where communities of faith are flourishing devoid of the fiscal and missiological entrapments of facilities.
Time to dust our feet and walk on in bold faith that we follow a living Christ who tore down the Temple-centered religion in order to bring the Gospel to the streets.
Great post. Those old, weathered edifices don’t seem so ‘lovely’ when the congregation is told to dig deep in their pockets, and savings accounts,for a million dollar, or more, renovation every eight or nine years.
The brief comments in the article really highlight the fundamental issue/conflict. I’ve been seeing and hearing those two approaches for 40+ yeasrs. Two groups of people are talking/believing past each other. One group is telling stories of people and their issues in order to move to a more “people centered” approach where standards (or behaviour) change in response to change in society. And with all due respect, there have been many instances in Church history where that has been the right approach. Jesus himself admonished the Pharisees about looking to the letter of the law and ignoring things like forgiveness.
The other group sees Scripture as the immutable plumbline. I would propose that is the soundest approach….but, there is always the question of adequate interpretation of scripture. They would answer that moving from forgiveness to endorsement of that which scripture calls sin is wrong.
One can make observations about those differences and argue from now on. Bottom line, the two approaches are irreconcilable. The two groups need to go their separate ways for the health of both.
A final comment. Man is totally depraved. Plumblining to the shifting sands of society will lead into the arms of the ruler of this world, not the ruler of the Kingdom.
Even if those who lost the vote left and started another church, the remaining ones would likely not be able to support this church building. And since those who voted to leave were most likely paying the bills, unless this church has a large endowment, the presbytery would have to pick up the tab.
I hope those who showed out of the blue to vote against this, put their money where their mouth is, but I’m not going to hold my breath!
The appropriate thing for the 266 to do is sue the Presbytery for ownership of the property and then leave if they win. Rules are for the unsaved.
What does “rules are for the unsaved” even mean? You mean like First Pres in Houston where the leadership couldn’t win playing by the rules so they went to court?
Did this congregation frame their reasons for leaving around the homosexual agenda?
The unholy actions of the general assembly to endorse universalism and discount the biblical teachings that Jesus Christ provides the only way to eternal life in heaven should speak louder and clearer to any Christian church. The homosexual agenda is only a judgmental wedge to sidetrack the congregational membership.
I hope this congregation follows Biblical scripture and votes a second time with their feet.
I am a member of the First Presbyterian Church referenced in this article and I voted for gracious dismissal. It is an odd feeling to know that though not a super majority, a significant majority (65%) of our members have now stated their desire to leave PCUSA, but by falling short by a mere 8 votes we, as the majority, can not leave PCUSA. I am relatively new to this beautiful city and this church 8 years) and while I am torn as to how I will react, I feel deeply for those families that are the 5th, 6th and even 7th generation of members in this church that now find themselves, I am sure, strongly considering an exit. Several members that voted as I did have already shared their decisions to leave the church, which while being a shame, I fully understand. After much thought and prayer I told my wife tonight that I have reached a decision As to “what next”. If the church will adopt a policy (not sure what to call it in church terms re:session, etc) that states that our church will not perform same sex marriages nor will the church allow them to be performed, then I will stay. If the church will not do so then, I will have to find a new church that shares my same deeply held religious beliefs. Carmen Fowler’s video on “what to do next” was incredibly helpful to me and for that I thank her. No doubt this situation is sad for our church and members on both sides of this issue. While I hope to stay and be even more active in the future, it will require that our church take a direct and strong stance against same sex marriage. And to the point raised earlier about the 65% leaving and taking their tithings with them, I can’t imagine how the remaining members will be able to support what is left of FPC. That will be a real shame.
What you suggest is not “appropriate” at all, for it is the world’s way of doing things, not God’s.
“All things should be done decently and in order.” (I Cor. 14.40)
And again, “If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.” (Rom. 12.18)
Also remember that although Jesus taught Peter that “the sons (of the Kingdom) are free” from the “rules” of men, that nevertheless we should “not…give offense to them.” (Mt. 17.24-27)
Resorting to lawsuits is the way the world resolves its problems. Now in certain cases, a congregation may very well be obligated to seek the protection of a secular court from a litigious presbytery that seeks to exercise hegemonic influence in imposing the denomination’s immoral property trust clause on said congregation, if that congregation has discerned that it is the Lord’s will that it disaffiliate from the denomination to affiliate with a more Biblically faithful denomination. But it should never be the church’s first recourse to take the presbytery to court; rather, the congregation should first seek to come to a fair, just, and equitable settlement with its presbytery (Lk. 12.57-59).
The presbytery is in a position of authority over the congregations within its jurisdiction. As such, the congregation (and the members of the congregation) are obligated to show due respect to the presbytery, regardless of whether or not the presbytery has acted in a godly manner. “Pay to all what is owed to them; taxes to whom taxes are owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.” (Rom. 13.7)
Now as to the situation with First Presbyterian of Columbus, theirs is not a clear-cut situation, as there is not substantial unity within the congregation. It is an unfortunate situation where a sizeable majority wants to disaffiliate from the PC(USA) and to reaffiliate with the ECO, but there is a substantial minority that does not agree. “If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.” (Mk. 3.25) The majority would not be living peaceably with the minority if it then took the session and the presbytery to court to seek to enforce its will regarding property settlement. The church property does not belong to the majority any more than it belongs to the minority; it belongs to the corporation of the church government. And the corporation is governed by its by-laws.
Now if the church by-laws require a two-thirds majority of those present and voting, and a two-thirds majority is not attained in the voting, the majority does not have a right to ignore those “rules”. The majority does have the right to seek to have the by-laws amended, so that a two-thirds majority is not required for such a decision, but that would still be a superficial fix to the situation that First Presbyterian of Columbus is facing.
The truly “appropriate thing for the 266 to do” is to get on their knees and pray for a spirit of unity under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And if such a spirit is not forthcoming, and if it is odious to the majority to continue in membership in a congregation that remains affiliated with a denomination that pays greater heed to the Spirit of the Age rather than to the Spirit of God, then it is incumbent upon the majority to peaceably depart the congregation and either start a new congregation in the community or else join existing congregations already established in the community.
Thank you for stressing getting on our knees and praying for direction! We don’t do that enough and God longs for us to seek Him in relationship and in our need for wisdom. 2Timothy 1:7.” For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and love and of a sound mind.”
Thank you for posting so we can move beyond conjecture and opinions about what people should do, and begin praying for the real people involved here.
Having worked for two 200 year old congregations, I can understand the institutional legacy and loyalty your community is struggling against. Also, I love that in an era that most young adults move every 2 1/2 years, you are considered “new” in Columbus, GA having been there 8 years (says a boy from ATL whose sister spent 15 years in Thomasville and was always considered “new”). I’ll pray for you as a “newcomer” that you can provide some creativity and innovation into a community rooted in stability.
Often our desire for sustainability has led our denomination to fail to consider the innovative options that God is calling us to embrace.
However, I think that these debates are forcing couples and families to healthily evaluate their allegiances. It is fascinating to think about the 5th, 6th, 7th generation families in your community. They have a desire to honor the past, but in doing so may be dishonoring the tradition. I have been reading the Epistles recently, and have been struck by the church struggles of passing on the legacy of the Gospel to the 2nd generation christians–let alone to the 7th generation.
Prayers are up for your family and community, What’s Next.
Journeying on in Christ,
Wes Barry
This situation is alot like Houston 1st Pres, people who have not darkened the door in years, but their still “faithfull” Presbyterian Christians, who have NOT given a cent to the church, but still want to make everyone else paying the bills suffer. DO NOT think that for a moment the presbytery does not take advantage of that.
I will pray for you. You still seem so filled with hate and anger over a year later. It was the will of the Holy Spirit discerned through prayer that First Pres remained in PCUSA. Accepting this result and moving on in your faith will help you heal. If you feel compelled to go to another church, so be it.
Amen, Loren! The hate and vitriol so many seem to feel when they don’t get their earthly way is scarcely Christ like. The Lord works in mysterious ways.
Be careful, Anne, hate and vitriol works on both sides, progressive and conservative. Maybe some of your comments relating to the leadership at FPC Houston fall into that category. Accepting the result of what FPC Houston’s leadership has done and moving on in your faith will help you heal. If you feel compelled to go to another church, so be it.
Blind fools – don’t you understand that divesting from Israel encourages ISIS and all the other crazies to keep killing Christians and Jews in the middle east? While all these people are getting all nuts about same-sex marriage, there are thousands of people plotting death to all of us 24/7 – sorry to butt in with ugly facts but the more we isolate Israel, the more our enemies take this as a signal that we will also isolate our Judeo/Christian faith and our brothers and sisters in the world. And that, my friends, is a threat to each of us. While our pastors are allowed to make their decisions whether or not to perform s-s marriage, and that’s what they are saying, we are looking the other way at a far-worse trend. We all need to pray.
Thanks Donna,
The actions of the last GA used political earthly means to bring about change. There was no desire to trust or follow God’s way.
They essentially cut off any meaningful dialogue or witness to Israel by their actions for the far left divestment. The only way to change people is to change their hearts.
There are many issues more alarming than sexuality, and the lack of
Purity in the church is a symptom of deeper problems.
God is in control and He hears our prayers. Thank you for calling us to pray……..God’s power and wisdom is available even for these church
Members who must now decide how to live out their faith in God’s will.
Is keeping a building worth disobedience to God?
David, it isn’t “hate” to hold church leadership accountable for what they’ve done. It isn’t “love” or “forgiveness” to hold them unaccountable.
Does anyone know if this church can begin a gracious separation process again at a later time, or does it all end with this vote? Is the window closed for them?
I accept the will of the Holy Spirit which the vote represented, David– not the egos of men who don’t get their way.
***to bring about change.***
Have not we heard this before??? How about bringing about Transforming this nation by some?? Either conform or be cast out is the new mantra, but those of us who are Conservative in theology and life, will be cast out by those who want to redefine Now the Church of Christ. The best days of persecution are ahead of us to determine who is on the Lord’s side or who will wimp out. No guts, no glory.
**Accepting the result of what FPC Houston’s leadership has done and moving on in your faith will help you heal. If you feel compelled to go to another church, so be it.**
My wife and I did, leaving a pcusa church for accepting same sex definition of marriage. I did not want to fight those who know nothing about the issue, yet, wanting to stay in the pcusa, so for my family, I/we have separated from those who will not separate from the apostasy. Many pastors who have time in the pcusa nearing retirement will keep their mouths SHUT for fear of losing the same IF they reject the new view of marriage so called. I pity them asking the Father to forgive them for they know not what they are doing, and have done. Suggested reading with the link provided.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_4?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=j+gresham+machen&sprefix=j+gr%2Caps%2C146
Evangelical-Conservatives, especially as applies to what is left in the PCUSA need to be very, very careful they do not make the same mistakes as their liberal counterparts. In essence become like Pharisee’s themselves to counter the death-struggle many churches get into over matters of brick, mortar, stained glass, conduits and HVAC.
Christ chided the Pharisees over their love of pomp, liturgy, building, structure over faith and hope. I think he would have the same to say to those who say they cannot exist or have ministry outside their s0-called blessed or sacred buildings which so many expend so much treasure and blood to keep up.
The faithful, if required and need be, flee, flee the house of sin, shake the dust off the feet and move along. God will be with the Body be it in a movie house, cafeteria, or storefront, just as if the community was still in a brick and mortar church. Is your time, treasure and energy best used in the enteral death struggle over property or real ministry? Cannot do both at the same time.
As far the PCUSA and their property clause, let them have it, they will choke on it, be in property management or money gained. It makes no difference. That is their god, and their god is nothing but death and misery. Move along.
To Anne – So when the PCUSA general assembly voted 6 or 7 times over 10-15 years not to ordain practicing gay ministers, that was not the will of the Holy Spirit? Man, I wish I was able to discern which votes are Holy Spirit blessed and which are not, like you can. You have a special gift.
Here’s a scary thought – or perhaps a glimmer of hope, depending on who decides or is chosen to participate: there’s another GA in 2016. Lord have mercy, this time, those in control will offer even more “changes” of who knows what proportion. Maybe some brave volunteers in our congregations can be there to save what’s left of the once mighty PCUSA and to stand up for the Word. It will be rough and the fight will be bloody but, for the right David or Moses, it could save the denomination.
I have to agree 100% with this commentary. The “trapped” majority in this Chuch has an option… stand for the Truth, quit the PCUSA jurisdiction, leave and start at a new place and affiliate with a denomination that stands and defends what you believe. This group is large enough to start a self sustaining community right from day 1. In my opinion, this is the best option for all parties involved.
There is a “stay and fight” argument, Mr. Gregory, that has merit, especially among the younger. At my age, I will not spend the final years of my walk arguing with disgusting leftists. I can see how the youth might choose to fight.
Here is a more realistic (and depressing) thought:
“But (Hophni and Phinehas) would not listen to the voice of their father, for it was the will of the LORD to put them to death.” (I Sam. 2.25)
“But as (the prophet of the LORD) was speaking, the king (Amaziah) said to him, ‘Have we made you a royal counselor? Stop! Why should you be struck down?’ So the prophet stopped, but said, ‘I know that God has determined to destroy you, because you have done this and have not listened to my counsel.'” (II Chr. 25.16)
“So then (God) has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.” (Rom. 9.18)
May God have mercy on the PC(USA)’s soul.
Red_dirt, with all respect — stay and fight for what? In 1995, maybe even 2005, stay and fight was a valid option. In 2015, the “progressive” takeover of PCUSA is complete; their victory is total. Wouldn’t young people better focus their energies in a faithful EPC or ECO or PCA congregation, than in the rapidly dying PCUSA, whose leaders now look to the world rather than the Word for guidance?
My epiphany on this matter of property and the properly clause came from the realization that even in best of circumstances and conditions, “gracious separation” was designed by the organization not a means to foster the grace and peace of the church, but to extract a price, time, resources, treasure and energy from the departing group. It was to keep the disaffected in the ‘system” or process to drain their collective energy and spirit. Over the process of time or litigation.
ML King said many times that the subjugation and oppression of a minority by the majority, can only happen with the cooperation of the those so oppressed. In essence their money and time to the oppressing organization. Which is why economic boycott was such a tool in the civil rights era.
Again, in these situations, one can choose to fight the good and worthy fight, over time, over a physical plant and cement. Is it worth it? And what is the price to pay? The counsel of Scripture is to flee sin and evil. Not engage in tort civil or church law over such people and matters. if the faithful just walk away and remove their tacit financial support and time, the system will collapse under its own bulk and heft. It is inevitable.
Pres is correct as far as he goes in stating that the EPC requires a 2/3 majority vote for churches to be dismissed. What he fails to note is that there is no mandatory negotiation imposed by the presbytery to reach some “approved settlement” that typically will cost the local congregation dearly if their vote is successful Instead, in the EPC, if the vote reaches the 2/3 threshold, the denomination dismisses the congregation “…with all of its property and assets.” Such a far cry from the intimidation and costliness imposed by PCUSA presbyteries in their “gracious dismissal” process. I wonder what the vote at FPC Columbus, GA would have been if there were no other costs to departure than just the vote itself. I would hazard a guess that at least two “no” votes would have switched to “yes!”
I think the polemics of “pres” makes my point. One can choose to engage in endless and fruitless debate on a host of matters. He is of his or her opinion, others theirs. Just shouting over the great divide. Each convinced of the rightness of their actions and beliefs.
One’s energy and time is best spent in building communities of common understandings of confession and practice. Move along.
The ECO not requiring a “settlement” isn’t relevant to this situation. Both the ECO and PCUSA require 2/3rds, and First didn’t achieve that. What is there to “settle”, unless you’re thinking First should just leave anyway?
First, Mateen was referring to the EPC, not the ECO. I don’t know what the ECO requires.
Second, it is very relevant. How many people vote against leaving because the Presbytery makes a punitive demand for the property? To be fair, not all Presbyteries do (and now we are seeing mean-spirited open letters being circulated in them complaining that not enough blood is being drawn from departing congregations), but certainly some do. In the EPC, a congregation is released and is not required to make a payment at all.
And somehow, despite the EPC denomination not trying to grasp the property of congregations, very few choose to leave. Does that mean there are better ways of ensuring unity than a coercive trust clause? Well, I’ll be darned.
Stay and witness is a viable option. There should be *some* pastors and congregations in the PC(USA) that will publicly uphold the faith once given to the saints. I have to believe there is a reason for that.
Scott, suppose you were to invest $100,000 equally with two different banks offering you the same benefits in every way, except that one bank will let you withdraw all your money with no penalty, and the other charges a 10% penalty for “early withdrawal.” Then a need arises in your life for the use of $100,000, and you need to withdraw it from one of the two accounts. Are you honestly telling me that the penalty cost would have no bearing at all on which account you would draw the money from?
Church members might be very willing to vote to leave the PCUSA were they given that option “free and clear,” but not willing if the cost for departure is $1,000,000 to the local church, particularly if that money is going to go to an institution in which they have lost all faith and fiduciary trust.
Please clarify how this issue is “not relevant” to voters being influenced concerning whether they vote yes or no to departure from the PCUSA.
I am just repeating what our leadership said repeatedly during the GRD, David, I.e., that the outcome of the vote would reflect the will of the Holy Spirit whether or not to leave PCUSA.
I know that you seem filled with anger, James, which is most unChrist-like. I will still pray that you can move beyond your personal grievances and find peace.
Yea, I suppose you’re right. We’ve all seen how readily conservative evangelicals put $$ ahead of their supposed morality. Staying in the evil PCUSA cause leaving would cost them holy $$ is totally in character. Staying in the PCUSA as individuals when they can leave at no cost means no longer controlling that holy $$. You’re right. It’s all about the money.
Scott, your response is not worthy of a Christian. In the first place, Christians are required by God to be good stewards of their resources. Secondly, it seems to me your sarcasm regarding concern over money would be more naturally directed against presbyteries which are demanding scandalous amounts of money from local churches in order to grant them their freedom. Individuals making decisions as to how their money should be spent is a matter of stewardship. Presbyteries making decisions as to how to acquire money they have no inherent right to is a matter of extortion, in my opinion.
A congregation can only go so far. The Presbytery has extreme latitude in placing a congregation under an Administrative Commission for governance. A teaching elder must obtain Presbytery approval to accept a call to a particular congregation. The options are very limited and are at best only a delay tactic.