During Kirkpatrick’s reign the PCUSA took giant steps to the left
Posted Tuesday, November 30, 2010
Me thinks one must be painfully naive to consider that Cliff Kirkpatrick remained neutral on the same-gender marriage and homosexual ordination issues during his tenure as stated clerk. He refused to take action in several instances of homosexual ordination claiming that it was not in his job description. At other times he came down hard on congregations that refused to bend to a more politically correct position. He was rather selective in who he took to task, the constitution be-damned. During Cliff’s reign the denomination took giant steps to the left making the PCUSA a more user friendly and more socially minded, diverse organization. With intentional effort our Lord Jesus was replaced by a watered down, easy going savior.
Sorry, but I don’t buy the story that the zebra has lost its stripes. Additionally, Gradye Parsons has done little to change direction of the PCUSA toward a more Biblically based denomination.
Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C.
Thankful for Biblically faithful congregations in the PCUSA
Posted Tuesday, November 30, 2010
As it is Thanksgiving season, I would like to give thanks to God for four wonderful and Biblically faithful congregations in the PCUSA: Scotch Grove Presbyterian Church (Scotch Grove, Iowa), Center Junction Presbyterian Church (Center Junction, Iowa), First Presbyterian Church (Wellsburg, W.Va.), and First Wyoming United Presbyterian Church (Torrington, Wyo.).
If we have need to address serious issues through this forum, should we not offer appropriate words of gratitude and thanksgiving for those who strive, and in no small manner succeed, in being a voice in the wilderness and a fervent Christian light unto a world darkened by many things? Rev. Steven L. Seng
The United States can extend mercy to the ‘immigrant’
Posted Tuesday, November 30, 2010
Re: The immigrant in the Hebrew Bible
Would you agree that all sin deserves death? If you do then all forms of sin including sexual immorality is deserving of death – adultery, fornication and homosexuality. That is why the Bible speaks of death to all such acts. I will agree that Jesus’ fulfillment of these laws by dying for all sin(s) doesn’t negate the righteousness of these laws, but extends mercy to the lawbreaker for the purpose of leading them to repentance from sin in their hearts and salvation through Jesus’ atoning sacrifice on the cross for us.
The United States can extend mercy to the “immigrant” don’t you think? The last time I checked the only original natives in America are the “American Indians,” so all other Americans are descended originally from immigrants.
Is it possible to extend the same mercy to others? Nicola Payne
Three denominations have failed to reckon with the awesome power of the Holy Spirit
Posted Tuesday, November 16, 2010
“God the Father is up there in heaven and Jesus His son is up there sitting on His right hand, so we can do whatever we want with impunity down here on Earth,” seems to be the thinking of the leaders of some denominations from three Protestant traditions. We are free, therefore, to set aside the guidance of Holy Scripture and to attune our denominations to the popular culture and do whatever is popular and in style goes the thinking.
Did something or someone get left out in the thinking of these denominations? Have they forgotten that our God is a triune God and that the third person is the indwelling Holy Spirit? John tells us that Jesus said, “… I will ask the Father, and He will give you another helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. You know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. … But the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.” (John 14: 16,17,26.)
John tells us, “[b]eloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (I John 4:1). It seems that hundreds of thousands of Christians, guided by the Holy Spirit, are testing the spirits in these denominations and finding that these spirits do not come from God, so they are picking up and leaving.
The Presbyterian Church (USA) lost 63,000 members in 2009. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America lost 91,000 members in 2009. The Episcopal Church in the United States of America (ECUSA) reported last week that its domestic membership was down by almost 51,000 members in 2009. These are only the latest in heavy membership losses that have been going on for years. The ELCA has lost about 900,000 and the ECUSA and the PCUSA have each lost about 2 million members.
There seems to be no end in sight to the membership loss. All three denominations have failed to reckon with the awesome power of the Holy Spirit, working through millions of individual Christians, so all appear doomed to greatly diminished size or even extinction. George Hill Port Allen, La.
Positive ways students are seeking to engage with Christian mission
Posted Tuesday, November 16, 2010
G. Jeffrey MacDonald’s article, “Mission-minded Christians 1910 World Missionary Conference,” is an accurate rendering of the conference and a helpful reminder of the positive ways students are seeking to engage with Christian mission here and throughout the world.
The one day at Boston College, which is the focus of MacDonald’s helpful article, is but a vignette into the rich conversations and lectures that occurred over the time frame of the 4-day conference which also took place at Boston’s historic Park Street Church (with support from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary), Boston University, Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology, Andover Newton Theological School and Harvard’s Memorial Church. Although conference registration hovered about 300, well over 500 persons attended the event at one time or another. For details, see: www.2010boston.org. Rodney L. Petersen, PhD, executive director Boston Theological Institute, Newton Ctr., Mass.
Believers need to examine our motives for redefining sin
Posted Monday, November 15, 2010
Re James Berkley post: Let no faithful disciple go unpunished?
Excellent comments on 10-A. If it does not pass, can we be done with this? It is creating disunity in the church to have constant harassment on this issue. God is the same, yesterday, today and forever. Surely we need to conform to Scripture. Unrepentance is unacceptable before God. We as believers who follow the Word need to examine our motives for redefining sin. God is not mocked. Susanne Sill
Kirkpatrick gives bold license to be intolerant toward only one group: faithful believers
Posted Monday, November 15, 2010
When I wrote my commentary about chilling developments to punish faithful Christians for upholding biblical morality, I didn’t have former Stated Clerk Clifton Kirkpatrick’s further egregious example.
Kirkpatrick “called on the church to repent of its ‘exclusion’ of gays and lesbians” [emphasis added]. One must repent of that which is evil. Therefore, according to this train of thought, our steadfastly rejecting the leadership of those who proudly remain involved in serial, unrepentant sexual sin must be evil, occasioning the demand for our repentance.
Kirkpatrick declared that “Our only intolerance should be an intolerance of efforts to exclude those who are different.” There you have it: bold license to be intolerant toward only one group: faithful believers. “Bad” people like those who follow the Scriptures are fair game for discrimination and even punishment. Chilling indeed! (And his framing of the terms is a cheap jab in itself: Referring to efforts to uphold godly righteousness as “efforts to exclude those who are different.”)
Clifton Kirkpatrick superbly illustrates my point: Christians who will not accept unrighteousness seeping into the church from our fallen culture will become objects of scorn within their own formerly Christian denomination. That would be a dark, despicable day.
Vote no on Amendment 10-A. James D. Berkley Seattle, WA
Hoping the PCUSA refuses to get involved in targeting IRD
Posted Monday, November 15, 2010
The article found at “New York Episcopalians consider targeting IRD” states: The November 13 General Convention of the Episcopal Church Diocese of New York will consider a resolution to “assess the threat to religious freedom posed by the activities of the IRD and related groups.” The proposed resolution insists on the “right of churches” to operate “without interference” from “private groups” like IRD. Seemingly this version of religious freedom negates freedom of speech for critics of Episcopal Church elites. The resolution wants a “joint task force” of the Episcopal, Presbyterian (USA) and United Methodist Churches to “develop common strategies” against IRD.
As it pertains to the Presbyterian Church (USA), I do hope our denomination refuses to get involved in such a joint enterprise. But if it does, it would have to preclude any and all association and interference by groups on both sides. If common strategies are developed against groups such as IRD, Presbyterian Coalition, The Layman, etc., then they must develop them against The Covenant Network, etc. They can’t have it both ways. (Though so often it is tried.) Presbyterians, be on the alert. Rev. Steven L. Seng Torrington, Wyo.
Ateek has a very real story of hurt and pain
Posted Monday, November 15, 2010
I’ve studied in Israel on several occasions and each time I am struck by the sheer complexity of the situation. So many articles written in the West fail to capture or explain these realities. My heart goes out to Rev. Ateek and the challenges he and the Palestinian church face. I’ve met several of the Christians, especially those still in Bethlehem, and they express sadness over their isolation from Christians abroad. Instead of recognizing the challenge of the situation and seeking to offer an ounce of brotherly compassion, this article simply calls down Ateek – a move that over-simplifies a complex reality. Ateek has a very real story of hurt and pain, and the author of the article simply calls it a “sympathy building tactic.” Surely we have more heart than that. Preston Pouteaux, director of discipleship ministry Lutheran Church of Our Saviour, Calgary
It’s hard to hear the PCUSA’s self-admitted vow breakers’ strident calls for repentance
Posted Monday, November 15, 2010
Your statement, “… Rev. Clifton Kirkpatrick called on the church to repent of its ‘exclusion’ of gays and lesbians ….” raises an interesting question. It appears that at least some of the ordained men and women who make up the Covenant Network are practicing gays and lesbians. I am a PCA teaching elder and I therefore don’t know much about PCUSA rules and regulations. As part of our ordination exam and trial by presbytery, we affirm that if we are ever “out of accord” with our ordination vows, we will notify our presbytery of such a change. I am guessing something similar must exist in the PCUSA. If that is the case, ordained PCUSA men and women took a vow that included the G-6.0106b “fidelity-chastity” clause or its earlier equivalent. They took vows, broke their vows and now urge the PCUSA presbyteries to repent of their “exclusion” of gays and lesbians!
To use the word “repent” implies that there are absolutes and God-given standards by which we are judged. It appears that the only absolute these men and women recognize is the absolute of accepting all forms of sexual expression as legitimate and/or God-ordained. If this is what they believe, they don’t need to be part of the PCUSA to promote their “faith.” The Metropolitan Community Church would be happy to welcome them and assist them in their promotion of their gay and lesbian agenda. From that platform they could urge the PCUSA to repent. From within the PCUSA, as self-admitted “vow breakers,” it is a little hard to hear, (if not almost comical), their strident calls for repentance. Rev. Thomas Hudson Mission to the World, PCA
How many times God has to say ‘no’ before we need listen?
Posted Monday, November 15, 2010
Speaking to the national conference for the Covenant Network of Presbyterians, Professor Myers brings some interesting logic to bear on the science of Biblical interpretation.
He points out that only 7 verses out of the 31,303 total verses in Scripture deal with same-sex behavior. He then asks whether we should preoccupy ourselves with .0002 percent of the Bible or the remaining 99.9998 percent. It is a valid question.
Further investigation might uncover just how many verses deal with abuse of women or child abuse. Perhaps the number dealing with same-sex behavior divided by the number dealing with pedophilia would yield further useful information. A sort of “sin coefficient” if you will.
Or, one might simply ask just how many times God has to say “no” before we need listen? If 7 isn’t enough, how many then? John Cowan Cartersville, Ga.
Williamson review of Ateek’s talk is what one would expect from a Zionist ideologue
Posted Monday, November 15, 2010
Parker T. Williamson’s uncharitable review of Rev. Naim Ateek’s talk is what one would expect from a Zionist ideologue and not a member of the Presbyterian community. He myopically sees the Israeli/Palestinian struggle through the Hasabra talking points prevalent in our media. Only a closet racist can take exception to the message of peace that Ateek has preached. Williamson’s disdain for Ateek’s assertion that Palestinian Christians are no different than those in the West is only one example of the implied racism that is rampant throughout the decidedly one-sided review. Even a cursory acquaintance with the historical facts would reveal that the colonial onslaught of the West including the blind support of a fundamentally racist and expansionist Israeli State using theology and security as a justification has largely contributed to the unsettled conditions in the Holy Land. What set of American values finds it acceptable to have an exclusive Jewish State in the traditional multicultural home of the Palestinians ?
Sami A. Halaby Raleigh, N.C.
What happens if 10-A passes?
Posted Monday, November 15, 2010
Just for the sake of curiosity … what happens if 10-A passes? I mean, what are churches and pastors going to do? Are we going to once again change our line in the sand. “Well, I’m out of here if they __________?” I hear evangelical saying things like “we will work for repeal.” Are you kidding? Once the toothpaste is out of the tube it will not go back in again! Seriously, what are folks going to do? And if we are too frightened to reply because of fear of reprisal … well that answers my question. I anxiously await your responses. Bill Little Mt Vernon Community Church, McKeesport, Pa.
Samaritan is not described by Scriptures as being an abomination unto God
Posted Monday, November 15, 2010
More comment on the red herring of homosexuals and lesbians being the “good Samaritans among us.” [Larry Brown’s letter to the editor, Posted Oct. 29, 2010; and David Carothers’ reply posted Nov. 2, 2010]
True, many do good works – but “good works” don’t excuse a clear affront to God; neither do they get us into heaven. And true enough, the “Good Samaritan” was not commanded to stop being a Samaritan (as if he could possibly have changed his lineage, and done so).
But unlike homosexuality, being a Samaritan is not described by Scriptures (Solo Scriptura) as being an abomination unto God. If there are those unfortunates who lust uncontrollably after those of their same sex – then they are to be pitied; but that is their cross to bear.
No matter how strongly a young man wanted to serve his country, in time of war – if he had a physical defect then he was disqualified for such service. So it should now be with those who would be officers in God’s army.
They are no worse off than young unmarried heterosexuals, in my youth: Let them forbear, take cold showers if necessary, and live chaste lives. Lewis Briley
Berkley is sinful in actions, words against the LGBT
Posted Monday, November 15, 2010
The article you posted by James Berkley notes that: “If a majority of PCUSA presbyteries vote in favor of Amendment 10-A, which would make ordination ‘standards’ as pliable as a putty nose, those among us who defend what the Bible says about sexual morality would suddenly be deemed sinful for doing so. Efforts to believe and uphold basic sexual morality that Christians throughout the centuries have believed and upheld would become subject to reprimand and censure – within this denomination.”
Well quite frankly I don’t get the point. Being one who is gay and in the so-called liberal side I wonder where has Mr. Berkley been for the past several years? For I as others in the PCUSA do consider Mr. Berkley and others to be sinful in their actions and words against LGBT persons. I didn’t think this was any real secret but always made loud and clear. So how does this really change just by adopting 10-A? Mr. Berkley and others likewise will continue to call me and others in favor in LGBT inclusion sinners. Of course we are all sinners in the end, so one might even ask what’s the point? Seems to me we just continue to affirm the Reformed tradition where we all fall short as humans.
It is also important to note that I or anyone else in the PCUSA currently has the right to file charges of sinful behavior of ordained officers who commit sinful acts against LGBT persons or inclusion. But we don’t. Rather those opposed to LGBT inclusion file the charges yet they don’t really seem to go anywhere and just cause a lot of frustration especially for some in the middle I might expect. So as one can see the charges and cases just don’t get anywhere.
Here is the bottom line I think. The current policy is basically ineffective and just results in stalemates, frustration and no real resolution at a national level. In thinking about sin, one must realize it has basis in brokenness and separation as explained in Genesis.
Amendment 10-A I think does offer a much saner way, as opposed to a way that is really insane if one thinks about it, of the PCUSA addressing the issue in a more effective way. Rather than having a certain standard officially in the BoO that favors half of the PCUSA but basically excludes the other half in belief, we do have a new standard as noted by Mr. Berkley that is more like “putty.” But isn’t faith supposed to be like putty? I’ve never met a person who hasn’t made changes throughout life in specific beliefs. And the fact is the PCUSA is that way as well just in its basic organization, the BoO, and the various confessions which offer various perspectives on faith throughout the ages.
The real question is should the PCUSA continue to pretend that the issue of LGBT inclusion is settled or should it be more honest in saying the issue isn’t settled and probably won’t be for quite some time?
I do firmly believe 10-A will make us more honest and I think more like putty to be molded by God just like clay. And I think all in the PCUSA can really see this as a better way as living together as Christ’s disciples where we affirm each other and also make each other more accountable. Earl C. Apel Cincinnati, Ohio