By Lee Shearer, Athens Banner-Herald (GA).
Members of Athens’ Central Presbyterian church dissatisfied with recent shifts in the denomination’s theology are welcome to join another denomination — but they will have to leave Central Presbyterian, a regional church governing body has told rebellious members of the congregation.
The Central Presbyterian “session” — a group similar to what in some denominations might be called a board of deacons, or council of elders — scheduled a Jan. 24 vote on whether the church should secede from the Presbyterian Church in the USA, the mainline Presbyterian denomination in the United States, and affiliate with a more conservative branch of Presbyterianism.
But the Administrative Commission of the Northeast Georgia Presbytery dissolved the Central session this week and will train and install a new session.
That Jan. 24 vote can go forward, the commission said in an email to church members Friday.
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This is a very sad report on overreach and abuse of power by an administrative commission. Such stories are all too common in the PCUSA.
Congregants who seek refuge from the abuses and apostasy of the PCUSA might find aid and comfort at one of the five PCA churches in the Athens area.
http://www.pcaac.org/church-search/
The louisville sluggers and their minions don’t care if you leave the pcusa, as long as you leave the door keys and the bank account numbers.
Blatant sheep steeling ok there at the PCA? – Call your fellow believers apostate and then try to evangelize them? You realize this seems unaligned with the gospel – right?
No – Leaders trying to persuade and “council” congregations out – just realize that there are others who are ready to step in and continue the ministry the congregation was constituted under?
my response is to George here, not the article James H
As I’ve told you before, the PC(USA), as the undershepherd, does not own the sheep. If the undershepherd has mismanaged the flock, do not be surprised if the owner of the sheep moves them to the responsibility of a new undershepherd.
Common Pater, that’s my bad…..
The real pity is that the Administrative Commission did not respect their own process enough to at least wait out the results of the congregational vote. If the members are so loyal to the PCUSA, then the vote would show confidence in the denomination, and justify the replacement of an adversarial Session. On the other hand, the Session may simply be mirroring a lack of denominational confidence that pervades the congregation. This looks a lot more like a AC which has grown skittish on the allegiance of not just the Session but of the whole congregation, and is trying, if not explicitly then tacitly, to forestall the vote. Really ridiculous to demand an oath of allegiance from Session members when they are in the middle of a process of discernment: they are still figuring out if they can still ally with the PCUSA or not! So, no, the AC has acted incorrectly here.
My real suspicion is that the AC fears that the vote will favor leaving the PCUSA, and that the Session will follow through vigorously; if there is no Session, there is no legal entity to file suit in civil court for the property. Just trying to dodge another court loss. At least, that’s the way it looks from here.
Votes are just excessively divisive and not productive, they alienate people and create unneeded emotional baggage. If there is enough support found by the AC to maintain a viable PCUSA congregation at the site and the Presbytery has given the AC the power to act – they should act, s they did here, and move on without excessively divisive votes that have no real meaning in our polity.
So Loren, you believe the session owns the sheep I see…
The owner of the sheep is the One who laid down His life for them (Jn. 10.1-18).
Huh? Voting is bad?
I thought Presbyterian polity was the basis of representative democracy. Sounds like you’re implying that autocratic fascist dictatorships are better than democracy. If that really your position?
The AC set out a process and a procedure. It was orderly. But the order was disrupted by a few who had their process and agenda. I side with the AC.
This is outright theft by PCUSA. It is time for all true Christians to leave their buildings and bank accounts behind and start anew. If you dare.
Matthew 19:23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
The better part of wisdom or common sense suggest wait for the vote. The Presbytery, like Custer, rushed in and forget to count
the cost.
I will be interested if the vote numbers support the presbytery action.
Sorry, but that is a load of rubbish.
There is nothing gracious, pastoral, or respectful about this blatant example of ecclesiastical tyranny….So much for order and process.
http://covnetpres.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Gracious-Dismissal-Policies-218th-GA-action.docx
My experience at First Presbyterian San Antonio is that NOT voting was terribly divisive. Since our overwhelming vote to leave the joy that had disappeared from our church is back. There are a few who were in favor of staying in the PCUSA who have joined other churches in San Antonio, but nowhere near the monthly attrition the church experienced prior to the vote.
My prayers go out to the people of Central Presbyterian. I cannot imagine the loss and pain they must be feeling as they deal with a denomination that’s top concern is property.
One thing I find missing from this discussion is the fact that the General Assembly asked presbyteries in 2008 to form a gracious dismissal policy for those seeking dismissal. The Northeast Georgia Presbytery has failed to comply and now is allowed to run roughshod over a congregation. Please follow the rules before you ask others to play by your rules.
Pater…. I do not disagree with your statement but your statement has nothing to do with the question I posed. If your statements are true (and I concede they are), the PCUSA is effectively Episcopal in polity and no longer Presbyterian in polity. It certainly has never been congregational in polity! The terms used to to name the components of governance are moot. The nature of the polity you describe is Episcopal. The Presbytery in the PCUSA functions as a Bishopric or a Diocese. So the governance is autocratic and not representative.
Now for an actual posting from me….what strikes me as almost amazing when I read this article….it is like the NE Georgia Presbytery exists in some sort of vacuum or time warp, where everything else that has happened and is happening around the country simply doesn’t exist and has no bearing on their actions.
90 percent of a church membership can vote in favor of leaving the the PCUSA and the presbytery can still accuse church leadership of….abusing its power through word and pulpit to intimidate and manipulate any opposed to get them to support dismissal….This is a common blueprint strategy used by Presbyteries to deny a church dismissal. They use their authority to exert a type of legal abuse to retain church property. Uncooperative churches can be taken over by Administrative Commissions who then strip a church of control and process as was done with Central. All under the guise of protecting the “ministry” of the church. In more and more instances, there is nothing Christian, pastoral, or gracious about it. It is ecclesiastical tyranny.
Common T:
As one who has been “trolled” on this site, the problem is with the firewalls and lack of IT support structure maintained by the “Layman”. And that’s on them.
That said as pertains to this case ,and those similar. What, who, is the PCUSA today is up for some debate. One thing that is clear is the PCUSA does not exist so much as a religious organization or denomination as it is a corporate-legal entity that treats non-compliant or non-conforming churches as IBM would treat a company that they see as infringing on their trade marks or logo. Lawyer up, rack up billable hours, employ threat and intimidation to cease and desist, and ask questions later. Its who they are, what they do. One should not be surprise when the folks lacking in either grace or culture, act as lacking in such.
It appears them liberals ain’t so liberal….
Leaving the church and all of the property to the Presbytery is NOT the solution. That is simply caving in to what the Presbytery actually wants; a property grab.
No, this can be fought in the court room.
Does this church not have a lawyer or two in the congregation? They need to simply go to the courthouse and get a judge to sign an injunction keeping the Presbytery from performing its “removal and replace” action until the property issue can be settled.
This process has been used successfully in other churches leaving the PCUSA. It protects the church and its property from encroachment by the Presbytery and allows the vote to proceed as scheduled. If 90% of the congregation votes to leave the PCUSA, the court will see that in the vote and will keep the injunction in place permanently.
The congregation should NOT kowtow to the Presbytery in this matter. They have taken the first steps to withdraw from the PCUSA without apparently having consulted with other churches who have already done so, and as a result they have left themselves wide open to being hammered by the Presbytery. This was reckless on their part. It is still not too late for action on their part, but they mustn’t dillydally any longer. Time is of the essence.
The issue really is that this isjust another example as to why the PCUSA ruling body should be dissolved- they are only interested in property, greed and liberal doctrine. It is disgusting.
By permitting the discernment process to proceed, the Presbytery has acknowledged the church’s right to vote and to leave the presbytery. The AC and the Presbytery are wrong to step in near the end of the process, dissolve the Session, and deny the congregation its right to leave the PCUSA. No wonder the PCUSA is in such deep trouble and disarray.
With a little digging on the NEGP site I found that they at least had a guideline. It was an attachment to one minutes of meeting from several years ago. I couldn’t tell if it was the current document, or if other process details were imposed. Do you know of this?
What was the procedure, was it different from the NEGP guidelines, and how did the session disrupt order to such a degree that it should be dissolved? Please give a lot more detail.
Amen Jim. The PCUSA is running through money to fund property battles just to get more money to fund more property battles. There is only so much property, and as such…so much money. Maybe there might be something left at the end to put in a collection plate. Pretty simple I think, and yet we go back and forth on property. Just think how that money could be used to further the Kingdom instead of lining the pockets of counsel obtained by the PCUSA. Go figure.
You are so right about that, CT.
Actually, you are one of the few regular commenters on this site who is able to spot Pres-Child pretty quickly whenever he starts commenting under one of his aliases. And then you ever so nicely call him out by name.
Gotta love it.
Lee J: having experienced firsthand the horrible convoluted process of “gracious dismissal”, I would not be at all surprised if these good folks walk away from their buildings and bank accounts. Unless you watch the pain and confusion of a congregation that has been betrayed, manipulated, and disrespected, it may be hard to understand why they believe it better to leave behind it all instead of facing a long and ugly fight in court. The rules were changed along the way, our session was removed by an AC that had no intention of finding the will of God in our situation. It was robbing us of our joy and making it difficult to worship as our time, energy and hearts were forced to focus on the process and sadly the fight. Our money was taken under the guise of doing us a favor. We walked away from everything after it became crystal clear we would never be released to be realigned with EPC…as hard as it was, I believe as many of our congregation also feel, it was the right choice. We started over, and the black cloud of PCUSA is no longer hanging over us, our hearts are lifted up in a new hope. So my hope for you is that maybe you will see the tragic loss and pain they are going through and remember that they are seeking Gods guidance in this difficult season in the life of their congregation. For some congregations, it is simply time to go. Please remember to pray for this church.
God bless you
…and another thing, One should be aware that all churches should now be working to make sure they are securing their funds. Shift the money to other outside accounts and put protections in place. This is good advice to all from someone who knows how these jackals and thieves work!
elder80 – I think you know what went on there, same as I do. You all spread untruths and scandal about the PCUSA. You all took actions to circumvent and put down those of us who want this congregation to stay with the Presbytery. I, for one am thankful the Presbytery is helping us and will support us as we move forward from this sad episode.
I wonder why they did not ask if each Session Elder would pledge allegiance to Jesus Christ! Also, would the Presbytery leaders also pledge allegiance to Jesus Christ? That is the bigger question that all should be asked!
This is at the heart of the vote, the chaos and the underlying reason churches are seeking to be in discernment.
Why did they ask if they would give their allegiance to Jesus Christ?
Isn’t that the important question for Session Elders and Presbytery leaders?
Hi Peach. I don’t live in Georgia and have only this newspaper article to explain it, and as usual, they don’t know enough about the subject to do it well. You seem to know what happened but also seem to assume the worst and accuse me of having some part in it. Is the policy “Consideration of the Request for Dismissal to Other Church Bodies Guidelines for Northeast Georgia Presbytery and Its Congregations” which appears to have been written several years ago the governing document for the process that Central and the presbytery began? (That’s all I can find on the presbytery website.) Were there other agreements or constraints placed upon the process that are documented elsewhere? What was the action or inaction by the session that caused presbytery’s AC to assume original jurisdiction? How was it explained to members of the church and how was it authorized and explained to presbytery? Can you share links to more information? Thanks in advance.
My church is going through this exact same process. The AC has come in and taken over so that we can not have a vote. They are now using a process “schism” to remove any member that does not believe the new beliefs and supports of the “evolving PCUSA”. Many members at our church are terrified and confused.
Which church, Tracy?
I don’t know about Northeastern Georgia Presbytery, but the Gracious Separation Policy for the Twin Cities Area Presbytery was never completed. It was more in the form of guidelines. It reminded me of The Pirates of the Caribbean movie. “Do we have an accord?”
Um .. which untruths are you referring to?
Is it the one where the PCUSA allows Ministers who do not believe in the Resurrection, Virgin Birth, or much of anything listed in the Nicene or Apostles Creed to continue to serve ??
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/03/17/im-a-presbyterian-minister-who-doesnt-believe-in-god-2/
Or the one where the PCUSA is in violation of its own Consitution ?? (Book of Order disagrees with Scripture & Book of Confessions).
Please explain which untruths you refer to.
Well, young child, calling another an idiot does wonders for their encouragement and attention to the coherence of your argument.
However, let’s consider your point: “The issue is you are organized as a congregation (VOLUNTARILY!!!) under the constitution of the PCUSA – and yet you decide to violate that by scheming to have a congregation you lead dismissed.”
Is this logical? Consider this:
1. The association is voluntary (as you say).
2. The Constitution of the PCUSA includes the Book of Order.
3. The Book of Order at G-3.0301 explicitly provides for dismissal of a congregation, therefore dismissal cannot be a violation of the constitution.
4. The Northeast Georgia Presbytery established guidance for a church within its bounds to consider dismissal, therefore it cannot be a violation of its rules – indeed, it is anticipated – that one of its member churches should consider dismissal.
5. Apparently, following that guidance, the duly elected session and duly called pastor reached a majority decision to recommend to the congregation to request dismissal.
6. The congregation, in a duly called meeting with quorum, voted in an overwhelming super-majority to request dismissal.
Therefore it appears to me there was no violation by the leaders of that particular church.
On the other hand, it appears the representatives of the presbytery, the AC, chose to ignore its own guidance, to set aside the leadership of the particular church that was not in violation without any clear explanation of cause to the congregation, and to overrule the will of the particular church.
The logical conclusion in this case seems to be that the only violations are those perpetrated by the AC.
//2016-Jan-27 10:00pm
In some of the councils of the church, the will to power seems to be the guiding principle. That is how the Lord would have us act.
Correction: That is NOT how the Lord would have us act.
While I think that the Christian should be reluctant to go to law against other Christians, I think the evidence time and time again tells us that the prudent thing for Central Presbyterian to have done was to have gotten an injunction against presbytery from the start. Once an Administrative Commission gets in the door it is an up hill struggle.
Tolerance, or lack thereof, from the ‘progressive left.’ What greedy hypocrites.
It is the General Assembly that is in revolt. The rules it has overthrown have been on the books for generations. The Assembly just figured out a way to make it appear otherwise. The fact it has been an ongoing agenda for many years should be irrelevant; but, of course, it is not.
Somehow, this USA denomination has been stealthly populated with progressive, socialist, left majorities at the control levels…Assembly, it’s committees, foundation, etc. iI has become dominated by its goals and methods. Has anyone read Rules for Radicals, by S. Alinsky? Has anyone read the process that a Liberal used to take the money from a foundation? And move half to its organization. Congressional members need only to watch who appoints whom to their significant committees and serve as their representatives. It’s valuable to just read the definitions in Webster for liberalism, progressivism, socialism, Marxism, Leninism, communism, etc. Then read up on tactics. A good read is Liberty and tyranny by M Levin.
While it seems that this denomination has always been “liberal ” politically
Leaning, All is well as long as conservatives are quiet.
It seems somewhere around the 1950’s Presbyterian dominations united. The USA became the ,title….did all the churches surrender their property which was owned by that unit already before the uniiting? And with all this mess did they remember to bring God along. The USA group still has the foundation proportion gained through all the churches . The fight is over the “property….??? Shouldn’t the leaving churches be granted other holdings proportionately ? Hasn’t progressing toward socialist onward goals toward the Marxist directions toward secularism. Can religious liberty and Marxism exist together?
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My family donated thousands and thousands over the years to ‘our?’ (question with quotes because apparently nothing belongs to us lowly pew sitter victims). During the decades of giving to our (their) PCUSA local church, we were never told donations belonged to higher up entities. This is fraud, deception and theft. Can I get a refund for their false, misleading theft? Under contract law in some states, there’s a case to be made here. PCUSA was sly enough to never let local donors know where the money went, or who actually controlled it.
The Union of the former southern and northern Presbyterian churches took place in 1983, the addition of the ‘property trust clause’ came in the northern church in 1978, and became effective for all remaining southern churches after the reunion in 1989.
For those controlling the denominational political structure the property clause is more important than anything else. You can doubt Jesus as the way the truth and the life but don’t dare question the property clause.
Remember: socialism includes Machivillianism….the goal justifies the imeans.
It is just a statement. And is a part of left “isms” . There seems to be much dismay and surprise at the maneuvers of PCUSA. It seems like the GA changed its policy for dismissal without notification. Did the previous policy time out.. I don’t think so.
You’ve heard of the ends justifies the means.
In many towns population 7500 and less it’s wise to keep quiet about your spiritual beliefs if you own, manage or have a high profile occupation. The elite, politically activist lefties in church leadership will seek revenge, boycott your business, slander you, etc. I know because I’ve seen it over and over again.
**The elite, politically activist lefties in church leadership will seek revenge, boycott your business, slander you,””
And these people are supposed to be christians???? More like sons and daughters of satan.
Though you accuse the PCUSA of being sly, if you were unaware of the property clause (which as stated below has been in place since reunion in 83…though old PCUS churches could leave within an 8 year window) your pastor and session should have made it clear that all property was held in trust for the denomination. As a PCUSA pastor who believes that churches ought to be able to leave without hassle, i have always reminded my session and the membership of the property clause. So don’t blame the denomination…take those to task who did not make this clear to you
I am blaming the cowardly, secretive, scheming PCUSA for theft, fraud and other tricks to pile up cash, and promote their apostate leftist velvet glove agenda, at the expense of unsuspecting donors. The presbytery, and on up, have made a conscious effort to hide in the shadows, keep local pew sitters in the dark, deceive and profit mightily. Just a sample: in 60 years, I’ve received three, maybe four contacts from the PCUSA and/or Presbytery. End of story.
When we give offering we give to God and God’s work.
How the church leaders use that money is a choice leaders must make, but they will answer to God in the end for how they further God’s will.
One of the reasons to leave the PCUSA is because of how the stewardship of our offerings is being used. Some churches have given to other causes, through designated giving and have withheld per capita.
Your offerings were gratefully given to God’s work and nothing can take away from your sincere desire and we can trust God to
bring about His will despite any factors put out by the PCUSA.
Thank you for all you have done in being a generous giver.
You are wrong about the ‘opt out’ clause. The correct wording states that churches that were formerly PCUS had to(1) have the session to indicate in writing,()2) have a called meeting of the congregation and (3) the congration shall agree, and (4) so inform the presbytery in writing of their action.
That is the only thing that needed to be done to afferm that said congregation could/would would be as the book of order of the PCUS indicated as to the “trust” cause to apply.
Reread the Book of Order….
When a church wants to leave, the first step should be to obtain legal representation. The facts regarding the ownership of the property should be explored. The session or the corporation that owns the property should seek an injunction against the presbytery to prevent interference with the session.
While I don’t know the facts in this case, it appears that none of this was done. Now they have a real mess.
The congregation may have to walk away from the property and reorganize in a different denomination and have church somewhere else until they can rebuild.