What is the total membership of the More Light churches?
Posted Tuesday, May 31, 2005
Will you give us the total membership of the churches, in the PCUSA, that are part of the More Light organization? Let’s find out just how much of a groundswell this movement is, as represented by the total membership. And, then once you have that figure, let’s share the percentage of that membership group as compared with the total church membership.
Robert Kellner Jacksonville, Fla.
The PCUSA is in a ‘sad state’
Posted Tuesday, May 31, 2005
The June 2005 issue of The Layman had an article “31 of PCUSA”s largest 100 are Confessing Churches.” The very fact that there is a need for an organization for the “Confessing Churches” reveals the current sad state of the Presbyterian Church USA.
B.C. King Sonoma, Calif.
Rick Ufford-Chase Visit to Las Vegas
Posted Tuesday, May 31, 2005
I am an elder at Mountain View Presbyterian Church in Las Vegas, Nev. I chair a session-approved ad hoc committee called the 216th General Assembly Action Protest committee, which was formed to research the actions taken by the 216th General Assembly with regard to the Iraq resolution paper issued by the Advisory Council on Social Witness Policy and the national policy statement on the possible divestment from companies doing business with Israel.
Our goals are to establish the facts on these issues and communicate them to the local congregations in Las Vegas, form a response to the controversies, invite a national polity leader from the PC/USA to Las Vegas to speak to the issues, and formulate an overture to potentially eliminate future controversies caused by General Assembly actions.
On April 23rd of this year, the PCUSA Moderator, Mr. Rick Ufford-Chase, came to Las Vegas to speak to the congregations of six of the valley’s Presbyterian churches: Mountain View Presbyterian, First Presbyterian, Green Valley Presbyterian, Henderson Presbyterian, Summerlin Presbyterian (just recently chartered), and Westminster Presbyterian. Our committee planned this visit for six-plus months, with the aim of having the national church explain their reasoning on several controversial issues. We formulated numerous questions that were given to Mr. Ufford-Chase in advance of his visit to allow him time and capacity to be fully answered during his presentation. We also allowed an hour of questions to be asked by parishioners from the floor.
His presentation, including the “scripted questions” and the questions taken from the floor, lasted for three hours on that Saturday afternoon, and the event was videotaped. In an effort to let as many Presbyterians know how our leadership speaks directly to the issues that have been on the front pages, our committee has edited the presentation and placed it onto our church’s Web site. I invite you to go to the Web site, see Mr. Ufford-Chase’s direct comments on a number of issues, and see the questions posed to him by our committee.
We will be formulating an overture this summer for presentation to our presbytery, as mentioned in our goals, with the intention of changing our national church’s future directions on how national policy statements and resolution papers are formulated and communicated.
Philip B. Keever, elder Mountain View Presbyterian Church, Las Vegas, Nev.
I applaud First Presbyterian Church of Hollywood
Posted Tuesday, May 31, 2005
I just got my copy of The Layman, June 2005, and as I perused through it I was hit right smack in the stomach by an article about the First Church, Hollywood. Heck, I went to that church back in the ’50s and ’60s.
As I read your article, I was completely confused on the way the article was written. I get it that there was a lot of hollering and shouting back and forth amongst all of the various committees and such, besides trying to fire Dr. Rev. Alan Meenan, Dr. Rev David Manock, and the church session.
I get it that there was mention of Stated Clerk Clifton Kirkpatrick, who wants to ordain all practicing homosexuals. A person like that I think is a person of ill repute, and I personally wouldn’t allow him within a hundred feet of me.
There is another mention of a shortfall of $840,000, which I think was spent for a very good purpose, and knowing Hollywood First Presbyterian can well afford it. I used to know people there that could replace that sum at the stroke of a pen and write it off of their taxes.
Actually, I thought the article was very lengthy and quite confusing. Why didn’t the writer just come right out and state what was going on? I bet there is an extra thousand words that didn’t need to be there, and really didn’t state what was happening. That’s the trouble with too many reporters. They’ve got to write on and on ad infinitum without stating just what they are writing about. (Newsweek is a prime example.) Although I’m retired, my time’s just too valuable to be spent reading lengthy articles that really don’t say anything.
My wife and I finally figured out what in the world all the hollering was about, and as I raised up the church’s Web site, I found out that Hollywood First Presbyterian Church has been trying to reach out into the community and try to bring the Word of God to those who wouldn’t be caught dead in a church. (We all know that there are quite a few of them out there, including me at one time.)
Why, their Contemporary Urban Experience (C.U.E.), held at another place in Hollywood, is a fantastic way to bring the Word of God to those people. I have also noticed that they have tailored their services to meet the growing needs of their congregation. Why, their Music Ministry and their Entertainment Ministries are absolutely fantastic. It’s so much different now from when I was there. Dr. Linquist was there then. (Another era.)
I applaud First Church of Hollywood for their outreach to the people. I would also love to have Dr. Alan Meenan as a minister of my church. Why, I bet he could get our church to grow by leaps and bounds. We need more ministers like him.
Jack Harmon Phoenix, Ore.
The PCUSA denomination is disintegrating
Posted Tuesday, May 31, 2005
Like it or not, the denomination is disintegrating. We have two groups squabbling with one another about core beliefs. We have only two non-Biblical threads now holding us together, property and pensions. Membership is slithering downward. A lack of money has caused a termination of employees and missions programs in Louisville. One group wants to ordain homosexuals, others do not.
The denomination cannot long survive one group pushing their agenda upon the other. The Presbyterians must voluntarily split up in two denominations – evangelical and secular. This would permit each denomination to develop their own agenda and prosper each in their own way.
What we are now doing is absolute suicide. The issue of property and pensions can be easily resolved. Let’s get on with it and enjoy two unified denominations.
Louis L. Mrkvicka Sequim Community Church, Sequim, Wash.
The end of the Presbyterian Church
Posted Tuesday, May 31, 2005
The Presbyterian Church cannot survive the destructive secular cancer which has been allowed to grow in its body. All attempts to ameliorate or cure this cancer have failed. The band-aid treatments of compromise in one part of the church have only caused the cancer to reappear on another part of the body.
You cannot compromise with cancer; you cannot compromise with an enemy intent on taking over your body, your church. The secular, humanist left will not give up until it has achieved total domination of the church. I have nothing but contempt for church leaders who have been tolerant with this movement. They are not good shepherds. They have betrayed their flock. They have caused their flock to stray. They are aiding and abetting the destroyers of the church, in the name of tolerance.
I say cut out the cancer in the church. Let the Christian Left form its own church. Let the dissenters go; encourage the true Christians to return to the fold. All the Presbyterian churches in my area are liberal. I refuse to support them, but as a lifelong Presbyterian, am hoping that one day there will be a true Presbyterian Church that I can return to. Meantime, I worship in private – not with God’s enemies.
May Kramer North Bay, Presbytery of the Redwoods, Calif.
Hollywood Presbyterian update
Posted Tuesday, May 31, 2005
It has been four weeks since the administrative commission put two pastors at Hollywood Presbyterian on administrative leave, had them clean out their offices and placed a gag order on them. I attended the congregational meeting on May 15 and services at Hollywood Presbyterian for the past three weeks. I also spoke to the clerk of session Monday, May 30, who supplied some of the data for item #2.
1. The May 15 congregational meeting was a disaster by all accounts. There was so much hostility directed toward the Administrative Commission that the chair at one point said, “I don’t feel safe here.” (See www.savehollywoodpres.com for a transcript from the congregational meeting.)
2. Church giving is down 20% from May of last year. The overall deficit for 2005 is currently $231,000. The staff and session are working tirelessly to set a budget for 2005 and will have one in place on June 28. Three members of the Administrative Commission are attending these budget meetings, but they have given the session a free hand to solve the financial problems. The session’s greatest hurdle is deciding what, if any, staff positions must be cut. The session has asked the congregation to help them with cost-cutting solutions. A new class of session and deacon members will be installed June 5. The three elders who resigned when the pastors were removed will be replaced at a later date.
3. Overall attendance was down slightly on May 22 and quite a bit on Memorial Day weekend. Attendance at the very contemporary “C.U.E.” service is about half what it was. The session has received some requests for membership transfers to other churches.
4. The new church that broke away from C.U.E. when the pastors were removed is attracting 150 young adults and young families. It has taken the name “Ecclesia” and the May 22 offering was $14,280. The leadership gives no indication they desire to return to the Presbyterian Church (USA), regardless of whether the two pastors return or not. They have planned a day of prayer and fasting on Friday, June 3, to seek direction for the new church. Its Web site is www.ecclesiahollywood.org.
5. The Administrative Commission has not said when or if the pastors will return from administrative leave. They continue to do research.
6. A group of members are seeking signatures to stay the enforcement of the Administrative Commission. They argue that the session was not given a fair hearing required by the Book of Order (G-11.0103s). Only two of the 24 elders were allowed to speak on behalf of the session. For a stay, they need 60 signatures from commissioners who attended the May 3 presbytery meeting. Their efforts to reach presbytery commissioners has been hampered because the minutes from the May 3 meeting contain the roll call from a previous presbytery meeting – not the roll from the May 3 meeting. Attendees of the May 3 presbytery meeting are being asked to sign the petition staying the enforcement of the administrative commission.
Rev. Paul Strand Member at large, Presbytery of the Pacific
Complete General Assembly resolutions should be made available
Posted Friday, May 27, 2005
To suggest that the Caterpillar Company and its 69,000 employees should be punished because a few of its bulldozers are used by the Israeli military completely fails the common sense test, so the divestment resolution is a complete farce.
More importantly, however, all of the resolutions passed by the General Assembly should be made available – in their complete texts – to every member of the PCUSA. And if they’re so wonderful, they should be shouted from the housetops nationwide.
The problem is that resolutions are passed, actions are initiated, and a conscious effort is made to keep rank and file members in the dark. It’s long past time for the PCUSA to “let the sun shine in” on all of its activities – and to live with the consequences.
Jon Spinnanger Williamsburg Presbyterian Church, Williamsburg, Va.
What’s up with the clown eucharist?
Posted Friday, May 27, 2005
For “enlightened” people, as the Episcopalians have traditionally claimed to be, have they now become fundamentalists of the Bible, and take it completely literal?
Heaven forbid they start asking their wives to submit to their husbands. Or, heaven forbid, that they ask their congregation to love one another as Christ loved them, and be willing to die for each other, or for the sake and cause of Christ Jesus; or that they preach the Gospel to all people, and teach them the things that Christ taught his disciples, such as looking foolish to the world simply because they believe in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Heaven forbid that they should consider that they may be offending others who hold the faith of Christ Jesus in all seriousness and respect, especially the commemoration of the Lord’s last supper.
I am sure they believe that this is only to make a point of some kind; however, at the least, I do not think it is to the edifying of the church. New, or different, is not always better, or even acceptable. Scripture teaches that we are to behave respectfully, and to dress respectfully, and to not take His Name in vain by our thoughts, words or deeds.
Brother Cooper should be sure to search the Scriptures and see if there is any precedence for this kind of behavior during their communion service. The outside world may laugh for the wrong reasons. Are we that desperate that we do not trust the Holy Spirit to move in the minds and hearts of people without appearing to look foolish by the way we dress?
Glenda Smith, elder Reems Creek Beech Presbyterian Church , Weaverville, N.C.
Thank you for staying with Hollywood Church story
Posted Friday, May 27, 2005
First of all, thank you Layman for staying with this story and thank you for providing us with the opportunity to respond to it. You certainly are a credit to our faith. We are hemorrhaging badly with few signs that we are going to escape a serious outcome, and praise God that you are available to help us through this.
The Presbytery of the Pacific has values intertwined with their beliefs that are totally offensive to us at HPC. For them to believe that they can heal our church while possessing a homosexual agenda and a camaraderie with the Islamic faith is an oxymoron. At the earlier May 3rd meeting, our members left with a sincere respect for them for allowing us to work out our problems amongst ourselves and allow our pastors to pastor. Then, an arm of their body, the Administrative Commission, reversed that decision. Our response to the foregoing is to be very distrustful of them. I don’t believe that they want this to occur. I don’t believe the PCUSA wants this to occur. Yet, they continue with their heavy presence – only creating more division. They know that our church can neither financially afford this division, nor can the PCUSA.
Regarding the signers of the petition to remove our pastors and those who sympathize with them, we can appreciate their concerns and hold no ill will towards them, but where have they been? Recently, we had meeting after meeting with open mikes. I have been present and even spoken at all of them. Why did they not step forward and inform us of their concerns? Even during our last congregational meeting on 5/15, only two or three of their numbers came forward. This is not the way that our Lord has called us to function under such circumstances. They failed to honor the due process set forth by our Lord in Matt. 18:15-17, which is to approach the pastors individually, then with two or three witnesses, and finally before the church.
Yet, I suppose that they chose to understand the word “church” as meaning “the presbytery.” The word church is translated from ekklesia, “the gathering of the brethren” (according to notes in The New Jerusalem Bible). In our case, this would clearly mean HPC. It stands to reason that those who know and can understand the men and issues involved can make the best judgments. Apparently, those dissatisfied with our pastors lacked faith in the rest of us to grapple with such matters, fairly. (This process needs to be mended.) Now, look what has happened. As church member Cristina Wilcox has aptly stated in her letter of 5/17, ” … we as a congregation have let the fox in the henhouse …”
We, the congregation, have fallen short. We have not given our best to loving our Lord God with all of our heart, soul and might and our neighbor as ourselves. We have not been watchful – recognizing that we are all fallible children of God. We have let others carry the ball when we should have been more responsive. We freely call ourselves “sinners saved by grace,” but do we then confess our sins to one another and then pray for one another that we be healed (James 5:16)?
Regarding Pastors Meenan and Manock, we so greatly appreciate their knowledgeable and inspired presentation of the Word. Yet, in their zeal to proclaim the truth to a world starving for it, they obviously ignored other responsibilities that God had placed on their plate. Thus, 108 congregants signed a letter requesting their removal to which our senior pastor stated that he was unaware that he did anything wrong. Even for their most ardent supporters, this contrast in perceptions is difficult to comprehend.
Finally, regarding the administrative commission, we do not, cannot and will not share their values. We find them very offensive and even repulsive. Yet, we do share something in common, and that is we profess a sincere love for our Lord Jesus Christ. This is a powerful bond in a world starving for such unity. But, because of our differences, we dare not to push this bond too far. Thus, they need immediately to back off and give us the space to work out our own problems. Fine, if they wish to remain as our advisors, but they come with a very different agenda, which we will not tolerate. As with our physical body, the spiritual body will normally heal itself with only minor assistance. Yet, they are currently not allowing this healing to occur. They have served his purpose; the major part of the problem is now out in the open. Now, they need to allow us to deal with this issue under his guidance.
Briefly, then, error needs to be shared by all, to which our Lord has stated very succinctly: “He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone.” With this in mind we, the congregation and all of our pastors, need to gather in the name of our Lord, the Prince of Peace, and present our concerns to one another. Prayerfully, we need to be open and respectful of one another, recognizing that we are all a work in progress. Hollywood and the world needs for us to do so and to do so quickly so that we might continue to be a light in the darkness, and others might ask: How is it that we have succeeded and many have not?
Thus, this is our chance to honor our foremost calling: to glorify God. We need not wait a moment longer. To ignore this will have very serious consequences for all. The division in our congregation is only widening. What we have on the corner of Gower and Carlos is a great gift and treasure. May we use this gift to God’s glory, end this strife and make this our small way of saying, “Thank you Jesus for having the passion to do what you have done for us.”
Glenn Dunlop, member HPC Los Angeles
Love of Christ embedded in hearts of Hollywood Church’s pastoral staff
Posted Friday, May 27, 2005
I became a member of Hollywood Presbyterian Church in 1999. I know the pastoral staff and know the love of Christ is embedded deep within their hearts. I still recall the words preached by Dr. Meenan when he spoke on Ephesians 3:20: “Now unto Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh within us.”
I was having a difficult time and God used him in such a powerful way. I always thought of that sermon as a gift from God. I feel deep sorrow due to the fact that such a blessed man of God has been temporarily silenced. My prayers and thoughts are with Dr. Meenan and Dr. Manock and their families. I guess I just wanted them to know they are loved and missed. God will have the final glory, just hang in there.
According to Mrs. Brenot’s letter (May16), only 1,100 to 1,300 people show up on Sundays and the church’s membership on the books is not accurate. I’m a member, but you will not see me there on Sunday, See, I’m disabled and have seizures. I rarely leave my home. My remembering to keep the Sabbath holy occurred each Sunday evening listening to the sermons on the Web, which had a one-week delay. Since this spiritual attack on my church, there has not been a new sermon in well over a month.
When I was not disabled, I taught Sunday school, was a Stephen’s minister, member of the Hollywood prayer watch and even walked Hollywood Boulevard with other wonderful FPCH members inviting the homeless and tourists to FPCH. I stood on the sidewalk on Sunday mornings and was part of the greeter ministry at the church.
It is true, I can’t attend the services any longer, but I’m a member. Please don’t drop my name off the books because this broken body cannot walk inside the building. Also, do not forget about all the other disabled members in my homebound situation. It hurts when we are overlooked.
Finally, I wanted to thank Rick Penner and Glen Dunlop for their letters to The Layman Online (May 23). They seem to clearly state a Christian approach to the FPCH situation. Rev. Erdmann is well-qualified and is a wise servant of God. God is in control and his will be done.
I do not fear the church will become lukewarm to God’s word. The members of FPCH are prayer warriors. The FPCH will not bow a knee to a false God, but will serve Christ knowing he is the way, the truth and the life. I also know God is watching over Meenan and Mannock and their families.
Knowing all this is in God’s hands, I can sleep a little better tonight. Remember, “All things work together for good, to them that Love the Lord.”
Darrell W. Gosnell Disabled member of Hollywood Presbyterian Church
Who can guide me on conflicts between Scripture and culture?
Posted Friday, May 27, 2005
I am a new kid on the block, ordained in October 2004. It gives me a great deal of trouble to understand the mindset that some of our leaders have when it comes to the issue of homosexuality in our society.
I chose to become a Presbyterian minister knowing very well the issues that we are confronted with these days. God gave us a story to share. It is the story of love, redemption, forgiveness and restoration. I am just wondering how we moved from telling that story to becoming advocates for what the Bible clearly condemns as sin.
The reality is that our society is in conflict with the principles well stated in the Scriptures. Solving this conflict will not be by compromising the principles designed by God in order for all of us to get along.
I wrote to our executive presbyter and a dozen of ministers from my presbytery, yet I am still looking for the best venue to share my concern. Do you have a way to guide me on this issue? Is there a group that I can join? I can always write a letter to the president just like the stated clerk of the General Assembly did. Will that be a way? Are there any others sharing my concern? Please help!
Paul Muresan Associate Pastor for Youth and Families , First Presbyterian Church, Westminster, Calif.
Folks who have the power couldn’t care less about people in the pews
Posted Friday, May 27, 2005
Whatever is said about Giddings-Ivory, the PCUSA, the Louisville Office – those folks who have the power care less about our opinions because they are in a position of power to do and say what they want. Who will fire those people doing damage to the Body of Christ? Who?
Lou. S. Nowasielski Wilmington, Del.
Kirkpatrick story was a good laugh, but longing for ‘real peace, unity and purity’
Posted Friday, May 27, 2005
I had a good laugh today, thanks to The Layman Online’s recent report on our stated clerk’s statement. Here is the laughable quote:
Kirkpatrick, who on several occasions has stated that it is not his duty to enforce compliance with the constitution, also wrote that the payment of per capita “enables us to uphold our Constitution [and] to promote the unity of Christ’s church.”
You have to admit that this last sentence, coming in the wake of our numerous constitutional breaches – the violations of our ordination standards, the ousting of evangelical pastors and the rampant defiance of our Washington Office, is remarkable for its sheer obfuscation.
A question for Rev. Kirkpatrick: Where is the upholding of the constitution, the promotion of unity? What planet are you on? If this – what we have now – is what “peace unity and purity” looks like, than give me the opposite.
Longing for the real peace, unity and purity of the church – in Jesus Christ.
Rev. Toby L. Brown, pastor First Presbyterian Church , Cuero, Texas
PCUSA’s actions may drive writer from the denomination
Posted Friday, May 27, 2005
I guess I’m getting to the point where I am seriously considering resigning from the Presbyterian church and the PCUSA. I’m thoroughly disgusted with their actions on homosexuality, gay marriages, evolution, etc.
I personally believe that liberalism is turning into a mental disorder. What happened to the obedient true believers; the born-agains?
Chuck Lindvall