Posted Thursday, August 28, 2008
V. Gene Robinson is more consistent with the reality of who he is than is Rowan Williams. Rowan rides the fence. Robinson jumped over long ago.
Robinson stands in the same place as Jezebel in the Revelation of Jesus addressed to Thyatira.
Revelation 2:20: But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, 23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works. 24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. 25 Only hold fast what you have until I come.
Williams could be addressed by the words of Jesus in Revelation Chapter 3:
And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. ‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’
I am a sinner saved by grace, called to good works,
Rev. Edd Cathey Great Mills, Maryland
‘A house divided against itself cannot stand’
Posted Thursday, August 28, 2008
Frank Christian demonstrates in his letter of August 22 the truth of the saying that those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. His proposal is the same as the unworkable “two synods” approach suggested and rejected years ago as the salvation for our denomination. As Jesus said, “a man cannot love two masters.” In this political season, Mr. Christian would do well to remember the words on the subject of our late fallen president, Abraham Lincoln:
“Under the operation of that policy, that agitation has not only not ceased, but has constantly augmented. In my opinion, it will not cease, until a crisis shall have been reached, and passed. ‘A house divided against itself cannot stand.’ I believe this government cannot endure permanently half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved — I do not expect the house to fall — but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other.”
Not only is Mr. Christian wrong, he would allow the denomination to put apostasy and heresy on the same moral and legal standing as truth and righteousness.
Mr. Christian, a house divided against itself cannot stand, and no amount of looking the other way will wish away the heretics who have wrought schism in our denomination. Like the proverbial tiny fecal matter in the punchbowl, they have poisoned this denomination for us all.
Mr. Christian may be unwilling to stand up for the truth, preferring the appeasement and tolerance of a man who is willfully blind, but others of us remain who will proclaim with our dying breath that Christ, not Sophia, is Lord.
When our nation’s darkest hour was upon us, God sent us a hero statesman to save the Union — even at the cost of the bloodiest war we have ever known. Now that our denomination’s darkest hour has arrived, let us pray that God will send us a Lincoln to save our denomination –even if the cost be the bloodiest war imaginable. Let us remember our history, and consign Mr. Christian’s viewpoint — along with those of Rodney King and Neville Chamberlain–to the ash heap of impossibly flawed ideas.
Frank Berrara
Exams to eliminate those “pesky evangelicals’
Posted Wednesday, August 27, 2008
So the PCUSA is removing its requirement that candidates for ordination pass exams on Greek and Hebrew proficiency? I think I can see where this is headed. First, a presbytery determines if a candidate has any evangelical leanings. If he does, require him to demonstrate mastery of the original Biblical languages. If the candidate proves to be mainstream and politically correct, waive those requirements. There hasn’t been a level playing field for a long time anyway. In a short while, they will have eliminated those pesky evangelicals. Brilliant, eh?
Larry Brown African Bible College
Dumbing down the ordination exams
Posted Wednesday, August 27, 2008
It’s no wonder the powers that be have dumbed down the ordination exams. The less candidates know about correctly dividing the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15), the more likely they are to support the wacky decisions made by the General Assembly!
Dr. Mike Porter Norton Presbyterian Church and Learning Center, Norton VA
First Church – Opelika, Alabama
Posted Wednesday, August 27, 2008
Well done! These folks really know what a Christian church is all about. May our Lord bless them mightily. Ted Chapman Arcadia, CA
Concerns over article by Layman writer
Posted Wednesday, August 27, 2008
It just so happens my wife attended the GA as a delegate and I also happen to be fairly well versed in the Book of Order pertaining to the recent decisions about the “removal of the fidelity/chastity ordination requirements.” I find the article written by John H. Adams irresponsible in its assertion to your readers that the decision “made it immediately possible for sessions and Presbyteries to ordain” homosexuals. I expect this kind of reporting in secular news paper but not from a paper designed to inform the Presbyterian church of the happenings of our denomination. I think you need to correct this report. No one is going to ordain anyone other then what is outlined in the Book of Order until/if all presbyteries vote this motion in the affirmative. I will not be one of those who vote to pass it and I resent the fact that it makes us look as if it is a done deal. Please make this correction.
Pastor Tim Thomas
The proposed revision of G-6.0106b in the Book of Order – the “fidelity/chastity” ordination requirement” – is but one item approved by the General Assembly. Another was the approval of a new authoritative interpretation that permits presbyteries and sessions to allow candidates for church offices to scruple that requirement. In effect, that authoritative interpretation declared G-6.0106b a nonessential. The editors
Middle Sandy’s ‘no cost’ dismissal
Posted Tuesday, August 26, 2008
In reference to the costs of departing churches, I would like to remind you that our congregation, Middle Sandy PC in Homeworth, Ohio, was dismissed in July, 2007, with absolutely no cost to either party. I do not know if the Muskingum Valley Presbytery had any legal costs, but our church had less than $500 total in legal costs for a retainer for legal assistance, if necessary.
That would break down to about $3 per member of the congregation. But more significantly, the cost to the Presbytery was negligible as well! When a Presbytery is willing to legitimately explore a congregation’s calling, and then to dismiss that congregation to a better theological match, the dismissal can be accomplished with very little money needed for the process, which of course leaves a whole lot more for ministry on both sides!
Our congregation continues to be very grateful for a Presbytery and a process that approached a difficult task with great Christian love and fellowship. What a blessing it is “when brothers live in unity…” and congregations can go different directions without condemnation, animosity, or costly legal battles!
Pastor Tom Sawyer Middle Sandy EPC, Homeworth, OH
Leftist Strategy
Posted Tuesday, August 26, 2008
Do you folk think that the leftist/gay rights people have the strategy to run conservative members and congregations out of the USA church during the next few years and then having the church to do with as they will? They are near a majority now and it seems they definitely will be a majority in the near future.
S. David Frazier
Another ‘What if?’
Posted Tuesday, August 26, 2008
I have just read the letter from Elder Frank Christian to The Layman (August 22, 2008). I must say that Christian is very probably a much better Christian than a lot of us including me. He is compassionate and does not want to see all of the strife that exists today in the PCUSA. His “what ifs” make a lot of sense if they could be implemented with candor and cooperation from both sides of the controversy.
Unfortunately I have a “what if” of my own. What if after this program was implemented and all the conservative Christians and some of the more liberal ones agreed, it was discovered that there were a vast number of folks who are never going to be satisfied unless we have a denomination that is structured so that every presbytery and every church is going to ordain anybody, believe in any and all things and admit anybody to membership regardless of whether or not they believe in the things the Book of Confessions stipulates? Then what would we do?
Elder James B. Harper Jr. First Presbyterian Church, New Smyrna Beach, Fla.
More Exit Fees
Posted Tuesday, August 26, 2008
Missing from the list of churches in the article “Exit Fees For Leaving PCUSA … ” is the Circleville Presbyterian Church. See article July 3, 2002 “Circleville Church pays its way out of PCUSA”. Circleville paid $112,500 to leave.
In Christ,
John Scavarda
Keep the ‘powers that be’ accountable
Posted Friday, August 22, 2008
We need to thank James D. Berkley for his insight and his research on this subject. Let us keep the “powers that be” accountable for following what the last two General Assemblies have required them to do.
Mark Markham Morgan Hill Presbyterian
PCUSA leadership is persuaded only by the withholding of all financial support
Posted Friday, August 22, 2008
GA was a disaster. Part of the blame goes to renewal organizations who have not advocated a total cut off of funding for Louisville. The PCUSA leadership isn’t persuaded by dialogs, petitions and “white papers,” but rather only by the actual withholding of all financial support. Maybe one could give per capita if the presbytery threatens some kind of retaliation if a church doesn’t pay per capita. And isn’t that a sad situation for a supposedly Christian church?
Some people advocate the denying of funds for implementation of corrupt decisions. Why not deny funds altogether? Don’t allow any “wiggle room.” Stop funding altogether. Until you do that, it is hard for me to take you seriously. We can continue funding causes which advance His kingdom but not the kingdom of Gradye Parsons and company.
Joe Woods Wallingford, Pa.
It’s the leaders vs. the members on the front lines
Posted Friday, August 22, 2008
The sense I get from reading the letters here and the reports from the GA is that the division is not so much between those who interpret Scripture one way and those who interpret it another, but rather between the commissioners of the GA and the task force members (such as the one on social witness policy) on one hand, and the congregations on the other. It’s the leaders vs. the members on the front lines – in the pews.
On one particular issue, the people voted 55 percent against in 1996, 67 percent against in 1998, and 74 percent against in 2001. In an ideal world of rational people, that would send a message that this is not a path we want to follow. One characteristic of an obsessive personality is that every time he fails at something, he redoubles his efforts in exactly the same way, until, failing again, he redoubles again.
Filing punitive lawsuits, like that against Dr. Howard and Mr. Elmes (Peters Creek Presbyterian Church; filed by the presbytery), shows clear evidence of an “us against them” mindset, a “let them eat cake” outlook, a case of “shepherd and sheep” taken to insane extremes.
Up until recently, we could assume that “GA is over there, we’re here in our church — what they do doesn’t affect us all that much.” But now that the GA has taken up the hammer of litigation against congregations – and even against individuals – we’re all in their sights. We’re not safe, our churches are not safe, even Scripture isn’t safe from their postmodern reinterpretations.
Mike Zorn Santa Ana, Calif.
PFR has ‘capital’ within the PCUSA
Posted Friday, August 22, 2008
I saw the letter by Dr. William N. Johnson on August 14 and the later reply. If this is the same Bill Johnson I know – it’s a perfect picture of the tragedy of the two hermeneutics that divide us. Satan nudges us on to say things we would never normally say. The Bill Johnson I know, respect and love, even though retired, is giving himself to help restore a dying church. He continually reinforces the centrality of the Gospel of Christ, even if he’s of another persuasion regarding ordination of homosexuals. I have experienced the sacrament of communion with him. I have listened to his teaching on our historic confessions. Whatever brought him to the point to write those regrettable things is the same thing that is tearing us apart. I daresay even our own impassioned replies might have elements we’re not particularly proud of when we look at them in a calmer spirit.
I was privileged to attend the PGF conference last week – and this denomination is not dead yet! What if God is at work within the PCUSA to restore our part of His church? I was with Presbyterians of like mind, concerned with mission, loving Jesus and Biblical! What if we were to accept that each side is operating out of an attempt to follow Christ, but we cannot agree on the way to follow Scripture? What if we were to accept that our different hermeneutics drive us to different conclusions – even to opposing each other? If we don’t divide, we will continue to rip each other – 30 years of history has shown us that!
But we can still love people like Dr. Bill Johnson, even though we may not be able to do all of our ministry together. What if we developed a conservative synod, that would allow us to pursue our vision and their vision independently? We could still cooperate on areas of agreement. There are certainly problems that would have to be solved, but we have the best bureaucrats in the world! What if God is trying to do something completely different than what we’ve seen over the past century? What if we found a way to truly welcome conservatives into a mainline denomination while allowing progressives to pursue their visions as well? We could be separate, but remain united within the PCUSA. To my knowledge this has never been done. What a great thing to give ourselves for! This is a huge task, a God-sized task, the success of which is by no means secure. Building this synod could be our “communitas” experience. If we succeed, this could lead to a renaissance for the PCUSA and like the phoenix, we could rise from the ashes to honor Christ in a truly unique way.
I think it’s worth a shot. I urge you to give Paul Detterman some time. PFR has “capital” within the PCUSA that they’ve built up over the years. They understand that this is the time to spend that “capital.” I suspect that even our denominational leadership is able to read the swell of protest that is rising from the congregations. If this is done right, we may have our best opportunity to follow Christ fully within the PCUSA. We may also be able to speak civilly to each other and love each other even if we disagree theologically. Even if it does not work, we can always leave later, but let’s take the shot together. Frank Christian, elder Palm Desert Community Presbyterian Church
‘We have to separate ourselves from those who do not believe as we do’
Posted Wednesday, August 20, 2008
In the story about the Presbyterian Global Fellowship gathering in Long Beach, Paul Detterman, executive director of Presbyterians For Renewal, in response to questions about delays in action was quoted as saying “What we are doing here is the equivalent of ecclesiastical brain surgery.” There may have been a time in my life when I would have accepted that statement, but now that I am old, I have come to realize that in many cases things are not nearly as complicated as we would like them to be. Many times claims of complexity give us welcomed excuses for inaction.
I don’t believe that there is a shortage of people in our congregations who know what has to be done. We have to separate ourselves from those who do not believe as we do. Individual Presbyterians have been doing this for more than 30 years. A relatively small number of individual congregations have tried to separate, with mixed results.
What is lacking is leadership that would allow a large number of congregations to separate at one time. As long as Louisville has the luxury of dealing with troublesome congregations one at a time, the odds are in Louisville’s favor. If many congregations in many presbyteries all rose up and separated and filed the necessary civil papers at the same time, the situation would be very different.
The various renewal groups and the “tall steeple” churches (also mentioned in the Layman’s story) have a great opportunity to lead in action and not just in talk. Pete Allen First Presbyterian Church, Mesquite, Texas