MLP’s statement may be seriously skewed
Posted Tuesday, April 28, 2009
I would suggest that the following statement from More Light Presbyterians: “The witness of this ratification process across the country indicates without a doubt that a growing number of Presbyterians believe that LGBT persons and their families should have the same opportunities and responsibilities of full participation, membership and ordained service in our Church offered to their heterosexual sisters and brothers,” may be seriously skewed.
I doubt the folks at MLP are really foolish enough to feel that the numbers of people who favor removing the fidelity and chastity section of The Book of Order are increasing at any meaningful rate. What is really changing is the ever increasing number of faithful Presbyterians who have left our denomination by the tens of thousands who are now absent when the votes are taken. John McWilliams Naples, Fla.
This year’s vote on G-6 is only a temporary fix
Posted Tuesday, April 28, 2009
“Does referendum vote ensure G-6 enforcement?” It may. My once-optimistic-but-now-somewhat-pessimistic view is that this year’s vote is only a temporary fix. But, meanwhile, once-staunch Presbyterians by the thousands are so sick and tired of the never-ending insistence by the militantly left that lesbians/gays/bisexuals/transgenders will be ordained that before anything else happens, they are taking the opportunity of this moment to walk – no, to bolt – out the door. And one day (very soon, I suspect), the LGBT advocates will get their way. Who will be left to stop them? Dan J. Weitner, pastor Bunker Hill Presbyterian Church, Sewell, N.J.
Progressives place higher value on ideology than on worship, true religion
Posted Tuesday, April 28, 2009
I read Jim Berkley’s commentary with a quiet amusement, tinged with deep sorrow. While I think Jim was being a bit disingenuous with some of this, I am certainly glad he has the forum with which to puncture the self-righteous left.
Is it really a surprise to anyone to recognize political bias among the faces of our denomination? In the long gone days of Presbyterian influence, missionaries went out to proclaim the Gospel of Christ by their words, their actions and their appearance. That ended in the last 40 years when political ideology and the social gospel began to trump the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
From the first day of Ufford-Chase’s run as moderator, his bias and progressive activism was front and center in his “performance.” Pick your venue of choice, from advocating violation of U.S. law (illegal immigration), to insulting the service and honor of our brave military members (his self-aggrandizing speech at the Council of Military Chaplains), to participating in the attempt to forcibly hijack worship at a Korean Presbyterian Church, Ufford-Chase’s real colors have been obvious.
His tenure as moderator did nothing to improve the witness of the PCUSA, why would you expect him to do the just thing now?
When will we learn that the progressive humanist church deconstructionists on the left place a far higher value on their ideology than they do on worship and true religion (see James 1:27). Do you need more proof of that? Look at the response of the left to the results of the latest effort to weaken the standards by removing the fidelity chastity after four defeats. The deconstructionists still claim victory and proclaim their intentions to continue to defy the will of the church and Scripture. Breaking news folks, winning by attrition is not winning.
It is time for the left to acknowledge defeat, bow to the will of the church, or fold their tents and steal away. There are other places they could be at home. May I suggest the ECPA, UCC, U-U or MCC? Please, anywhere but here. Jim Yearsley Tampa, Fla.
San Francisco Presbytery is finally ‘getting it’
Posted Tuesday, April 28, 2009
The trends are clear: More liberal pastors, especially in states like North Carolina, worked to secure like-minded elders as commissioners to meetings where the big vote took place. In addition, some presbyteries, like San Francisco, are finally “getting it.” Sid Leak, honorably retired Orange Beach, Ala.
Rev. Rihner will be better off out of the PCUSA
Posted Tuesday, April 28, 2009
If the PHP acted in the manner described, it is clear that Christ has fled from that body. Accusations without a shred of evidence being presented are equivalent to false witness! Rev. Rihner will be better off out of the PCUSA. I know that dropping my membership was the best thing I ever did. Fred Edwards Holland, Pa.
Practicing gays ought to consider their habitual sin
Posted Tuesday, April 28, 2009
How can you people even consider allowing gays to be pastors or elders? When God spells out a specific sin, He probably means what he says: “They shall not inherit the Kingdom of God” I Corinthians 6:9-10. This is talking about those who continue in habitual sin. Practicing gays who claim to be Christians ought to consider their habitual sin. But then again, you are the Presbyterian Church (USA) who went sideways years ago.
Remember we have a loving and just God – don’t forget the “just.” Jim Floyd
No clear evidence as to how sin of homosexuality causes damage to me
Posted Tuesday, April 28, 2009
The article you posted “No truth without love, no love without truth” by Albert Mohler raises some good thoughts about Christians telling the truth to others in sin but also showing compassion.
Mr. Mohler notes about liberals: “Liberal churches have redefined compassion to mean that the church changes its message to meet modern demands. They argue that to tell a homosexual he is a sinner is uncompassionate and intolerant. This is like arguing that a physician is intolerant because he tells a patient she has cancer. But, in the culture of political correctness, this argument holds a powerful attraction.”
Mr. Mohler notes about conservatives: “Biblical Christians know that compassion requires telling the truth, and refusing to call sin something sinless. To hide or deny the sinfulness of sin is to lie, and there is no compassion in such a deadly deception. True compassion demands speaking the truth in love – and there is the problem. Far too often, our courage is more evident than our compassion.”
OK, as a homosexual in question I will offer my own perspective. First of all from my own experience in being among more conservative Christians for a number of years, I believe they tend to not be so courageous and in fact show a good deal of compassion. They in fact tend to feel sorry for the homosexual who seems to be astray. But their answers as to why they should feel sorry for the homosexual are usually lacking other than that’s just the way things have been for 2,000 years or more. Unlike Mr. Mohler, I think they too often show much compassion and don’t really place so much emphasis on telling the truth. Of course there are some exceptions as we all know too well of those that choose to be more vocal. I’m simply talking about the people in the pews.
Liberals on the other hand place a lot of emphasis on science and balancing that with faith, contrary to some popular beliefs that would say they are practically atheists or heathens who don’t find so much value in having God in the equation.
Mr. Mohler’s statement about cancer reminded me of my own life experience with my father who died just over a year ago of cancer of the pancreas and liver. I will never forget the doctor taking me to a room to show me the extent of the cancer via pictorials of tests taken on my dad. The doctors were truthful with both my dad and me as to the damage truly taking place. There was indeed truth as well as compassion.
Going back to the debate about homosexuals, the fact remains that there is simply no concrete truth that can be demonstrated as to the so-called ravages or destructiveness of the so-called sin of homosexuality as we have with diseases such as cancer. I would be the first to accept this if it were so crystal clear as would so many others. But it simply doesn’t happen and so if there is a real truth out there I don’t know of, some people need to take this more seriously I expect and make it happen. Otherwise it is simply words without any meaning or effect. Maybe someday some doctor will be able to take me into a room and show me a picture of how homosexuality is destroying me. But until that is possible, I see no clear evidence as to how this so-called sin causes damage to me or others. In fact I observe the opposite in which homosexuals are engaged in happy (not destructive) lives and find meaning in following Christ.
The fact is that in speaking the truth, one must first have compassion. God did this throughout history and through Jesus Christ. And when it came to speaking truth, God and Jesus made things quite clear without doubt just as the good doctor did to me and my dad. God and Jesus simply tell the truth rather than rely on popular opinion. Earl C. Apel, deacon Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church, Cincinnati, Ohio
Shame on the PCUSA and others that support a destructive lifestyle
Posted Tuesday, April 28, 2009
I support what Kimberley Moore, Bay Village, Ohio [letter to the editor, posted April 21, 2009] is saying about the AIDS crisis and think that her statements needs to be examined by the PCUSA. I lost someone in my family to HIV/AIDS so I have first-hand knowledge of what this disease does. I was made fun of by former classmates at Union-PSCE for not engaging in pre-marital sex based on my religion’s convictions. It’s true that the Bible’s prohibition of sex outside of marriage is a support to us, and contrary to the PCUSA teachings, this Biblical rule is not designed to take away our fun or enjoyment. Shame on the PCUSA and others that support a destructive lifestyle. I suggest the next time a church leader wants to support a wild and free sex life, that he or she starts this campaign by holding the hand of someone that is slowly passing away because of AIDS. Josh Butcher Bloomington, Ind.
Every effort must be made to protect valued colleague’s reputation
Posted Thursday, April 23, 2009
Because I am not aware of any circumstances surrounding the events in Prospect Hill Presbytery, I will not comment on the validity or lack thereof of the accusations made against Rev. Rihner. What I will comment on is my direct knowledge of him. Brian Rihner and I were classmates in seminary. On more than one occasion he and Lynn and their children invited me into their home for a meal and fellowship. Theologically, Brian and I are miles apart, yet I encountered in him a gentle and generous Christian spirit that looked beyond disagreement to fellowship. That is the witness of Brian Rihner I recall and that is that memory that speaks to my opinion of the good character of this man.
Our process for investigation is difficult for all involved and I have no doubt that the presbytery of Prospect Hill takes its work seriously and with care. I do hope, however, that every effort will be made in this context to protect the reputation of a man I know to be an honest and valued colleague. One of the things that makes our church a vital witness to a broken world is that we have competing voices and differing opinions that constantly challenge one another to seek God’s will deeper and more fully. Brian was one of those voices for me in seminary and for that I am thankful. The members of the presbytery, the congregation, the commission and the Rihner family are in my prayers.
The Rev. Robert Wm. Lowry First Presbyterian Church of Searcy, Arkansas
Hoping the Kingdom advances in Denison through this chain of events
Posted Thursday, April 23, 2009
It is just plain ignorance to treat the leadership of Prospect Hill Presbytery (or that in Louisville) as Christian. “To invite them in,” as
United did, was just as unwise as the Trojans assuming the Greeks to be honorable. You’d think after all these years, the big wooden horse would be a dead give-away.
Here’s hoping and praying the Kingdom advances in Denison through this chain of events though. Jesus’ people (at least 40+ family units of them, anyway) are now free to use their gifts and talents in an orthodox church; that can’t be bad, no matter how it came about.
Praise be to our God and Savior Jesus Christ, who shall never leave His church to die on the vine!
Pastor Russ Westbrook, PCA
‘Whole heartedly agree with the article’
Posted Thursday, April 23, 2009
I whole heartedly agree with the article and Pastor Rihner. Please see my comments.
Jim Runnels
Crushing to witness the cruelty with which the presbytery treated our pastor
Posted Wednesday, April 22, 2009
I am a former member of United Presbyterian Church in Denison, Iowa. I am also one of eight session members — out of twelve — who have resigned our positions with the Denison UPC.
It has truly been a crushing and yet eye-opening experience to witness the cruelty with which the Presbytery of Prospect Hill (PPH) has treated our pastor. It has been a sad time for our church membership and this has caused a division in membership of the Denison UPC that it may never recover from. There are over 40 family units that have left the church. Families that were some of the most involved in the church’s operations.
This division need not to have occurred had the PPH allowed us to discuss and discern among ourselves for longer than they allowed. Once the PPH got involved the bullying and the innuendos began. The church became an “us vs. them” environment and we were told we could not communicate among ourselves as to the reasons for considering a change to PCA, New Wineskins or some other denomination altogether.
Here is a copy of my family’s resignation letter:
Sir or Madame:
In light of recent events which took place at the United Presbyterian Church in Denison, I am compelled by the Spirit and by my firm belief in Christ’s teachings to draft this letter.
My wife Lori and I have been faithful members of UPC of Denison for over 20 years. Lori has been a part of the Presbyterian church for approximately 50 years. My wife and I have served as deacons, session members, Sunday school teachers, Wednesday night youth group leaders, Bible school teachers, confirmation class facilitators, landscapers, cooks, janitors, Christian education committee chairperson and construction manager. Our children have faithfully attended Sunday school, youth group, Bible school and confirmation. As they grew older, they also served as volunteers in those same youth programs. On numerous occasions, our daughter has shared her musical talents, both vocally and instrumentally, with the UPC congregation. We have faithfully given of our time, talents and hard earned dollars to the mission of the UPC. When I see the influences of the immoral “left” taking a larger and larger foothold in the PCUSA, I strongly believe that I must keep my family focused on the teachings of Jesus Christ and not on the societal whims of the moment.
Throughout this “discernment process”, it was quite evident that the Commission on Ministry and the Presbytery of Prospect Hill had no intention of hearing our cries for understanding or for our concern for the teachings of the Bible. This was about winning and losing. This was about a personal vendetta towards the best minister this church has had in our 20-plus years of membership. This was about many things, but this was not about God’s teachings. This is about what the General Assembly has done and is continuing to do to the Presbyterian denomination. In a recent visit I made to the presbytery, I was told that “the GA has no effect on us locally.” If the GA has no effect on us locally, why is there a GA, and why can’t we decide locally what’s right to do? Questions I’m sure that I will never get answered.
Well, I suppose in the eyes of the presbytery, you feel you have won? However, “as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (Joshua 24:15)
We will just have to do our worship in a church home that believes in the teachings of Christ as the one Truth and not in a body that feels compelled to succumb to the whims of societal and moral proclivities.
Please withdraw from the membership roles of United Presbyterian Church of Denison the names of:
Jeffery A. Sis – Current session member
Lori B. Sis – Current Christian education committee member and past elder
Jordan C. Sis
Carly J. Sis Jeff and Lori Sis
Attacking a pastor and session for questioning the mother church is unconstitutional
Posted Wednesday, April 22, 2009
Prospect Hill Presbytery can be proud of the way it ousted the Rev Brian Rihner by following The Louisville Papers to the hilt. This is the case of another pastor and congregation who consider loyalty to God more important than loyalty to the unfaithful PCUSA. Rev. Rihner is fortunate that the Louisville Papers do not condone burning at the stake anyone who disagrees with the false teaching and false witness of this presbytery and of the Louisville leadership, as was done during the reformation.
I must confess my belief and naivete from years past that the Presbyterian church stood for Christian values and that should a presbytery be guilty of such a malicious act that the synod or the GAC would have the courage to right the situation. No evidence of that. It is obvious that our newly appointed stated clerk, Gradye Parsons, possesses the same tunnel vision with respect to right and wrong as did Cliff Kirkpatrick.
To attack the pastor and session of a congregation questioning the direction of the mother church is morally wrong and unconstitutional. It is the mother church that has turned its back on God and put its faith in a godless, worldly religion. It appears that Rev. Rihner and the session bent over backwards to conform to the ridiculous requirements imposed by the Louisville Papers. Once again the presbytery Gestapo rushed in to take control where it was not warranted. Who is next?
Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C.
Officials’ actions are what puts nails in the coffin of power-hungry presbyteries
Posted Wednesday, April 22, 2009
After reading Carmen’s blog on where everybody went during holy week, I have to say it is strangely familiar to what happened with Brian Rihner. Don’t the exec and the COM know that their very action is what puts nails in the coffin of power-hungry presbyteries? May the end come soon.
Meanwhile, what are our options for disarming rogue presbytery committees, commissions and executives? Divide and conquer them we must. A “good death” is in order for the institution … not this useless, evil, spiritual bloodshed. Leo Wideman
Was the process was ‘by the book?’
Posted Wednesday, April 22, 2009
I read with interest your article on the dissolution of the relationship between Pastor Rihner and his congregation by the Presbytery of Prospect Hill. Maybe I missed something, but I have two concerns about whether the process was “by the book” or not.
First: who did the investigation? Your article uses the words “committee” and “presbytery officials” to describe those who conducted the investigation. Such an investigation should be done by an administrative commission. Did the presbytery appoint an administrative commission or did presbytery staff and/or a standing committee of presbytery (COM?) conduct the investigation? If it was not done by a properly empowered administrative commission it is my opinion that the session of the congregation had no responsibility to speak at all or to turn over any records. A COM may conduct inquire into difficulties in a congregation (see below) but I am not convinced that a congregation or a session is required to cooperate. When an administrative commission is appointed with powers delegated by the presbytery the congregation, the session and the pastor must respond.
My second concern relates to a section of the Form of Government. G-14.0610 says:
The pastoral relationship between a pastor, associate pastor and a church may be dissolved only by presbytery. Whether the minister or the church or the presbytery initiates proceedings for a dissolution of the relationship, there shall always be a meeting of the congregation to consider the matter and to request, or consent, or decline to consent to dissolution, as provided in G-7.0304a(3).So a congregational meeting must be held no matter who seeks the dissolution of the relationship between the pastor and the congregation. Was such a meeting held? The article does not say.
Yes, the presbytery may ultimately act to dissolve the relationship between a pastor and a congregation no matter what the pastor or the congregation may want. G-14.0613 says:
The presbytery, through its committee on ministry or an administrative commission, may inquire into reported difficulties in a congregation and may dissolve the pastoral relationship if, after consultation with the minister, the session, and the congregation (G-7.0304a(3)), it finds the church’s mission under the Word imperatively demands it.This is speculation on my part but I am fairly certain that the congregational meeting must be held before the presbytery votes. Also while I saw that either a committee or presbytery officials brought accusations against Pastor Rihner at no point in your article did I see any statement that suggests that the presbytery voted that the church’s mission under the Word imperatively demanded that Pastor Rihner should be removed.
It seems to me that I remember a similar case in Cincinnati Presbytery against a pastor who was ordaining self-affirming, practicing homosexuals. Cincinnati Presbytery removed the pastor, but when the case was brought before the Synod PJC the PJC found that the presbytery could not do so without charges being brought against the pastor before the presbytery PJC. At least that’s what I remember. Maybe someone with a better memory than mine could say what exactly the Synod PJC decided. In any case the pastor renounced jurisdiction of the denomination and the case did not go forward.
While Pastor Rihner may have a case in a civil court against the presbytery unless the presbytery called and held a congregational meeting and then acted to say that the church’s mission under the Word imperatively demanded that Pastor Rihner be removed the presbytery is out of order. There may be grounds for a remedial case here.
And if the Synod PJC in the Synod of the Covenant is correct (and also my memory) charges should have been brought against Pastor Rihner.
That is if anyone cares about doing things decently and in order.
One last point: I believe the GA PJC decided last year that a congregation could not hold a meeting to discuss whether it would leave the denomination or not. I’m not sure what a congregation is to do under such circumstances, particularly if the presbytery is unwilling to send an administrative commission that will listen openly and make decisions fairly. But there is a better way. Philadelphia Presbytery, of which I am a member, managed to dismiss a congregation to the EPC by appointing an administrative commission that listened carefully and acted fairly. Would that God would bless all presbyteries with such administrative commissions!
By the way, the new Form of Government currently has no provision for a congregational meeting to be held when the presbytery seeks to remove a pastor. Robert Campbell, pastor Tully Memorial Presbyterian Church, Sharon Hill, Pa.