By Eric Adler, The Kansas City Star.
Being an arrogant winner is hardly Christian.
That’s why a small group of members of the Presbyterian Church of Stanley, part of the mainline Presbyterian Church (USA), insisted this week that their job now (at least for the time being) is to be as gracious as possible to the former members of their congregation who last year voted to break away. In so doing, they had also sought to wrest away control of the congregation’s $4.4 million building in Overland Park and its contents.
“We wish them grace and peace,” said member Ellen Crain.
In 2014, the 1,200-member congregation at 148th Street and Antioch Road went through a painful schism that split the church and friendships, and led to a lawsuit.
At root were issues of both theology and property. The congregation’s more conservative, evangelical members, including the congregation’s senior pastor, Eric Laverentz, voted in October to disaffiliate themselves from the Presbyterian Church (USA) because they believed the mainline church had long been veering from what conservative members deemed to be the faith’s Bible-based mandates. The bulk of the congregation joined in, choosing to affiliate with a different denomination, ECO: A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians.
Such schisms have become increasingly common in the Presbyterian Church, especially since 2011, when the mainline Presbyterian Church (USA) changed its rules to allow the ordination of gay and lesbian clergy.
Heartland Presbytery, the regional body that represents the national Presbyterian Church USA, filed the lawsuit in Johnson County District Court. Heartland held that the mainline denomination owned the church, its pews, its Bibles and all other property. If the ECO members wanted to leave, fine, but they shouldn’t get the building.
The ECO faction argued that the church and its contents belonged to the congregation, the entity that holds title to the building, other property and has long paid all its bills.
Judge Kevin Moriarty this month ruled in favor of Heartland Presbytery, supporting the mainline members of Presbyterian Church (USA).
98 Comments. Leave new
This church building will have to be merged with another freak show pcusa church or it will be on the market within three years, revisionist don’t tithe, and the presbytery is not going to subsidize a small group of people in this big building.
I hope they just walk away and dust their feet off, the ones leaving are ones who have been paying the bills, I read very last comment in this article, they want them gone to, so they can get on with their freak shows
I cannot comment on the legal merits of the ruling in this particular case, but the PCUSA position on the matter is self-evidently unjust. It seems more concerned with the prospective loss of wealth than the loss of brothers and sisters in Christ. Wow.
“We wish them grace and peace… (and now we’re going to take everything they have)”. I’m sensing a rather sarcastic graciousness on those staying behind that does not sound truly genuine. Can anyone say Anatevka?
Do not shed tears for the faithful who have left the physical structure. They will not only survive, but thrive once free of the PCUSA millstone. This paradigm has been repeated many, many times.
The real poison pill in the property in trust circus are those who chose to remain in the physical plant. Their loving Presbytery and PCUSA will soon show them the door as well, as they seek to unlock the property value by other means. As my father said many times, an idiot and his money are parted rather easily.
I have a feeling there is indeed plenty of “arrogance” involved with the PCUSA supporters…otherwise they would have not fought and graciously turned over the building to the much larger group that had contributed so much more to it..and could continue to use it as a church….a few dozen will NOT be able to.
Tater knows all and feels all – you make it clear that you believe in the end in simple mob rule. The largest group gets their way, send the others away quickly, they do not agree with the Tater truth…
@ James H – you know all this how? what source? – this is your opinion and you should preface it as such. Do you listen to Rush daily, your tone and vocabulary indicate you must…
@ Todd – no the Presbytery seems appropriately concerned with the group that wants to maintain communion with the denomination that constituted the congregation. Siding with the underdog in this schism seems unjust to you?
May the lord bless and keep them…..far away from us. Some of them anyway. The remnants of the PCOS congregation is not as supportive of this ill-conceived scheme and some might like to believe. Nor are they terribly interested in starting a new church or sitting on folding chairs because a few fools overplayed their hand. All are welcome who come in a spirit of peace and reconciliation. There will always be those who have nothing better to occupy their time other than gleefully anticipating our demise, but don’t kick dirt on our grave just yet.
Clarification…nobody has taken anybody’s stuff here. A handful of fools overplayed their hand, bet it all and lost. The few at the top of this pyramid got paid all the while they convinced some very gullible people to keep writing them checks. I feel terrible for those people, truly. But it’s not like a lot of good, smart and faithful Presbyterians didn’t try to stop them, and try, and try, and try….for almost two years. And now have the scars to show for it.
“The way of the fool is right in his own eyes, but he that listens to counsel is wise.” Proverbs 12:15
People have a way of seeing this however they need to, I find. There is not much to be done either to displace those beliefs once they’ve taken hold.
Freak show? Name calling does not help your witness or anyone else’s I don’t think.
No Pres-person it’s not my opinion, it’s a fact, revisionist don’t tithe, they just throw a little in the plate once in a while, and no I don’t listen to limbaugh, and how I know this well…………..
@ James – you have your personal experiences – your world is not the whole world, why do you persist in painting every situation with your narrow little brush? That seems freakish to me…
Deborah”All are welcome who come in a spirit of peace and reconciliation.”
What a load of crap, that’s code for come back and shut up and accept revisionist theology, I give this church three years tops, unless it’s sitting on a large endowment, then the presbytery well………….
“Who really cares” by Arthur C. Brooks is an excellent book on charitable giving and includes statistics and hard data.
Pres-person, I’m curious as to whether you leveled the same criticism at GA decisions over the years, which typically are very slight majorities one way or the other on controversial matters. Are the ones you disagree with “mob rule,” but the ones you agree with “the will of God as discerned by the proper process of the denomination”? In fact, in the PCOS voting, the outcome was not a slight majority, but super majority. If only GA decisions on crucial matters demanded such super majorities, we wouldn’t have gotten into the mess the PCUSA has found itself in for the last two decades, imho.
Time will tell. We’re not worried, but you seem pretty worked up. Try to take it easy, ok? It’s just church. There are people in this world with real problems.
Great points. They are all for majority rule at the General Assembly level.
Siding with the underdog? I think the underdogs are the churches who feel betrayed by the majority rule workings of PCUSA and simply want to leave with the property they paid for. PCUSA is all for majority rule when it comes to reversing centuries of biblical understanding, but not so much when congregations react to those changes. Then, the attitude seems to be don’t let the door (that we now own) hit you on the way out.
Math has never been my thing, but how does 300 out of the 1200 members they claimed to have a the time constitute a super majority?
“Only about a third, or 400, of the congregation’s 1,200 members voted. Of those, 300 voted to disaffiliate and link up with ECO.”
The math says that 300 out of 400 is 75%. That’s where Rev. Elass gets his “super majority”.
Also, “Laverentz, the senior pastor of the ECO faction, said that about 450 parishioners met at the church Sunday to discuss future plans.”
Assuming that the “450 parishioners” includes the “300 (who) voted to disaffiliate”, and that only those “450 parishioners” are leaving PCOS for the ECO, the math says that leaves 750. Now out of those 750, only 100 showed up to vote. What happened to the other 650 members? To be fair, I would suppose that some of them would have voted for PCOS to remain affiliated with the PCUSA but were unable to attend the congregational meeting where the vote took place. To be generous, I would suggest that another 100 would have done so (now it would be 450 to 200, which would be a 69% majority), which leaves 550 unaccounted for. Where were they on the day of the vote? What rationale do you follow that leads you to believe that they all would have voted to stay? Have they all been faithfully attending and giving all this time, or has PCOS been lax in cleaning up its membership rolls?
It is time to let go of anger.
What is GOD calling you to do?
Remember Joseph…..The brothers meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.
This decision from the courts may mean that this group will leave the building, the PCUSA, the ministry in that place and set out to follow where God is leading them.
Maybe God want a new start, new name, new ministry and that means severing the ties completely.
Ultimately, God is about bringing HIS WILL and plan for the sake of the gospel and to bring many to the Faith through Jesus.
Those who stay will do their thing. Those who are called to go and leave
will find fruitful ministry under The Holy Spirit as God calls in the place God calls them. There is more at stake here than just property.
We can let go of anger, because we are following the call of God
what ever way He calls (going or staying). There is peace and power in being true to the call we have as we submit to God. There will be unity of vision with a separated church and maybe the witness can be effective.
Only God knows.
It is not winner takes all, it is not my way or the highway, it is not
an attempt to hurt others. It is trying to follow the will of God and move in the direction God is revealing. God is moving people around, that means change. Are you ready for it?
Let go of anger, and instead be under the power of the Holy Spirit
and draw close to Jesus. Be in prayer!
These people on both sides have been courageous and God has allowed the circumstances to dictate the out come. Now follow that leading
whatever the cost. GOD BE WITH YOU,
In the pastoral profession you deal with very angry people often. Angry church folk get angry just like anybody else. Anger is based in pain, emotional, physical, spiritual, psychological, personal and public. Deal with the pain, deal with the anger. I think this why Jesus chose to heal as He did in his ministry. You deal with the pain, there is healing, and Jesus healed completely, physical and psychic.
I think its completely silly to ask people, don’t get angry, or suppose that anger is not a fact of the Christian life. Jesus called us to do many things in life, love your enemy, forgive the unforgivable, feed the hungry. “don’t get angry” never came out of His mouth, and its contrary to basic human nature.
Anger is, it exists, it is what we choose to do with, and about it, how we chose to process it in our lives that makes it either a force for change, justice or just a pathological emotion that cripples us. And in the case of the PCUSA there is indeed much to be angry about and people whom to angry with. You can forgive them, pray for them, wish them well, but they are not off the hook for the consequences of their choices, nor should we let them. Nor will God at that time of His coming. He sees all and knows just who is who, and whom will be the recipient of His anger. I think that’s in the Bible.
California Episcopal Church is 10 yrs ahead and is doing exactly as you predict
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/church-670011-james-great.html
Oh….the little one is back….it really DOES bother you that I am correct about so many things, doesn’t it?
Buildings are not really that important.
God was willing for even the temple to be destroyed when His people turned away from Him.
Hmmm “you have your personal experiences – your world is not the whole world, why do you persist in painting every situation with your narrow little brush? ”
Why is it that at the 2014 General Assembly everyone who spoke for SSM, said basically the same thing, “well in my experience”, and it was OK ??
“displace those beliefs” … if you could show me where, aside from a few still majority conservative presbyteries, where an actual ‘gracious dismissal policy’ was actually gracious toward the congregation who decide to leave, I may change my mind.
.
However, you may be on a very long search for an example.
“Just church” ????
.
What about mission? What about evangelism? What about helping those in the community who have less??
.
More than “just church” ..
Thank you both whoever you are. That was lovely.
Yes, but losing one can be disruptive to ministry—especially to a large church.
It’s just an accident of the law that this state’s courts would award ownership of the buildings to the presbytery. In other states, the breakaway congregation would have won. This is no vindication of PCUSA theology, and no declaration that the minority has been abused. It’s just how the courts in this state decide these controversies. It’s just a shame that the majority may need to find other quarters, for now, to carry on as a church. It sounds as if the few dozen people who worship in the PCUSA services in that facility may be an insufficient number to support the the cost of the buildings, and this facility may be available again, just like the other empty facilities that the presbytery is reported to be offering for sale or lease.
About one hundred members turned out to vote against disaffiliation, not just “a few dozen”, and there may be more that might have wanted to vote against it but were unable to be present on the day of the vote. To be sure, you and I do not know whether or not those who remain do not have the financial resources to continue to maintain the facilities.
And to be sure, the majority party does have the right to appeal the ruling in Kansas Appellate Court. Whether or not they choose to exercise that right remains to be seen, so this sad drama of a congregational split might not yet be over.
Your point is good…..we can not deny we have anger, but it is what we choose to do with it that makes the difference. Denying anger is unhealthy. I’ve found myself being consumed with anger and acting out, speaking out of anger. Recently, as our church is going through discernment, I realized that I needed to start seeing God in the disparaging things that have been happening. To have more faith that God is doing something in our time.
Moving out of the PCUSA or staying in does not have to be about anger alone. Sure, all the movement and circumstances add up and make us angry. But there is a higher call from God for where we decide we should be and how we respond. When we have anger we focus on the thing that makes us angry. I want to focus on what God is calling me to and doing instead. The decision I make is now about the CALL of God on my life and less about anger. Some might be called to stay and some to leave…..I respect that.
God is in the midst of circumstances and we have a better chance to see God’s perspective and hear the call when we praise God. It allows us to approach the circumstances with power and assurance rather than anger. The things we are angry about become stepping stones to God’s will rather than a stone wall.
Like you said, anger then becomes productive.
It is hard to have joy and praise with anger. It doesn’t mean I don’t feel angry about things, but I am going to choose to praise God for what God alone can do even in these “PCUSA ” circumstances.
What’s done is done. I hope both groups can get on with the ministry to which they feel called to.
I do not advocate schism or breaking away from an established body of Christ. However, there is such a time when one part of the body has
turned from Christian doctrine and tradition and adopted apostacy.
I have no idea about any congregation or presbytery or court of the church, but when both resort of the secular court to settle an argument
about property, theology and all that implies for a body of Christ becomes a secondary issue.
The primary issue is how much value in terms of today’s dollar does the property have? Therein is a theological statement: the doctrine of avarice.
On the other hand, I know of a presbytery that has a gracious policy and extracts little Geld from the departing congregation. Unfortunately, there are other presbyteries that go for the bank accounts and book value of the buildings, inside goods, and land.
In these cases, the judacatory is looking ahead to support the presbytery leadership in a style that it has become accustomed to living. That is my opinion and I imagine I am not far wrong.
Finally, in these cases there are no winners; the cause of Christ has lost.
The continuation of the article reports that sometimes only a “few dozen” worship on the PCUSA side of the church, while hundreds reportedly worship on the ECO side. While you’re correct that I don’t have financial information on those few dozen, I’d feel safe in saying that that number won’t be able to keep the lights on in a $4.4 million, 1,200 member facility. As to the right to appeal, you are certainly correct, and I confess that I’d like to see that appeal take place. I wonder whether the appellate courts might be willing to change the law, since the congregation paid for that church. I’d be willing to bet that the presbytery has never put any resources into it, and is being unjustly enriched as a result of hundred year old law.
@ Mateen – Changes to BOO and BOC are decided by duly elected elder commissioners and require Presbytery affirmation (and BOC is a super-majority) – big difference from a “congregational” schism vote driven by a particular faction in a single congregation! Presbyterian = rule by elders, not congregational “mob” votes
hey tater – sticks and stones…
THUS SPAKE JAMES – he knows all – 3 years, you heard it here first
Ah. So if the duly elected elders of the congregation decide that the congregation should leave the denomination, then you’d be fully supportive of that?
I don’t see the big difference you apparently do between congregational votes and GA votes. Both are decisions made by “duly elected individuals.” Every church member has been “elected” by the session and then congregation when they are received publicly. While GAs make decisions for the whole denomination, congregational votes are made by the members on matters of direct relevance to their own futures — that seems even more just to me than depending on “duly elected commissioners” who are not called to represent their constituencies but rather to “vote their conscience.”
Using loaded language like “schism,” “driven,” “faction,” “mob,” adds no light, but only heat, to the discussion. When a presbytery meets and votes with only 30% of the presbytery membership present, do you complain that the winning side was merely a “faction” that was driving a certain agenda, and that the result was mob rule? The fact is that most congregational votes on the matter of dismissal reach a participation threshold much higher than one would every find at a typical presbytery meeting (or congregational meeting, for that matter).
Since PCUSA polity envisions the possibility that congregations might want to be dismissed from the denomination, and provides an avenue for that possibility, why are so many individuals and presbyteries of a liberal persuasion so angry and punitive when congregations decide to pursue that option? Heartland Presbytery in particular has shown itself to be utterly depraved in its efforts to deny congregations under its charge the freedom they seek to transfer to another part of the body of Christ. Where is the grace of God being shown by denominational officials? What is so hard about releasing them and sending them forth with blessing?
evidently words too…or you wouldn’t continue as you do
Although I do not have any data at hand, if TYPICAL facts apply in this case and the PCUSA faction retains control of the building, in 10 years time it will be shuttered. The people with get up and go are getting up and going.
Although I do not have the financial data for this church in hand, if TYPICAL fact patterns apply in this case, the building will soon be shuttered. The PCUSA faction will not have the means to support the building and or run a church program unless there is an endowment. Those with the get up and go are getting up and going. If there is an endowment that will only postpone the inevitable. Another hollow “victory” for the PCUSA. In a just world it would be Heartland Presbytery that is being shut down.
I assure you that whatever else, this building will not be shuttered in ten years’ time. It is in southern Johnson County, Kansas, one of the richest counties in the nation. If this PC(USA) remnant can’t make a go of it, then one of three things will happen: Heart-of-Litigation Presbytery will either try to plant another congregation there (think 1001 New Worshiping Communities), give (or sell) the property to another congregation in the presbytery (e.g., Village), or sell it for a lucrative sum.
@ Mateen – Are you even a PCUSA Presbyterian? Presbyteries are the council that constitutes congregations – only Presbyteries can act on changing the status of a congregation. Presbyteries get to decide the process for dismissal for their member congregations and this Presbytery decided – what is your problem?
Pres-person, I have been a minister in good standing for 33 years in three Presbyterian denominations (24 of those in the PCUSA), so I believe I have a pretty good understanding of PCUSA polity. My “problem,” as you put it, is that I am not willing to absolutize polity as morally good. It is true that the BOO gives presbyteries the authority to constitute, dismiss or dissolve congregations, but that does not mean that the methods they use (or refuse to use) are therefore by definition morally right before God. Even though, as you say, “presbyteries get to decide the process,” the GA back in 2008 encouraged all presbyteries to develop gracious dismissal policies for churches wishing to leave. Heartland Presbytery along with a majority of others, completely ignored the higher judicatory (and the Bible as well — see, e.g., 1 Cor 6:7-8; Romans 12:18) in this matter (hardly Presbyterian behavior, I’m sure you’d agree), and has acted instead in a supercilious, high-handed manner toward each of the congregations that has sought to “work within the system.” Do they have the right to do that according to PCUSA polity? Apparently. Are they right in acting that way? Hardly. It is not my place to condemn them, but it is fair to point out their unchristian behavior, and to remind them, as I remind myself, that “judgment begins with the household of God” (I Pet 4:17). The PCUSA does not belong to the PCUSA but to Jesus Christ, and should the Lord wish to call one of His congregations into a different denominational home, woe be to the institution or “council” that seeks to thwart His will.
Other than that, I have no problem.
http://www.gastongazette.com/article/20150731/NEWS/150739789 – same issues in the EPC – same issues everywhere – I affirm PCUSA polity as best balance between the two poles here – this is not black or white issue
I’m not sure what the two poles are which you refer to, but EPC polity is intentionally more gracious than that of the PCUSA regarding church dismissals. Every church has the right to be dismissed with its property (and no ransom to the presbytery) as long as they it follows the denominational procedure (public meetings and votes, with presbytery presence, separated by at least 6 months’ time for rumination, if I remember correctly). This seems to me much clearer and better than the PCUSA free-for-all approach, leaving things up to each presbytery to decide its own policy (or not). At the local level, tempers often flare, and feelings get hurt, so policies can be driven by desires for payback, etc. If the policy is set at the GA level, then such idiosyncracies are diminished, if not eliminated.
“A few dozen” was what was reported in the reading to be worshipping there. That is where that figure came from. And the number of people worshipping weekly is probably a much more important and valid figure than the number of people who showed up on a certain day for an important vote.
I believe he said “if PCUSA retains control”…and he is probably saying this because unfortunately PCUSA is closing infinitely more churches than it is planting. Even the churches in your wonderfully “rich” counties are drying up and dying around the country.
Deborah,
Do you think dialogue is ineffective now?
Seems like everyone is committed to their own views? Is that discouraging?
Yet, I think about the Apostle Paul, who was stopped on the road and confronted by Jesus light. That sure changed him.
It sure keeps us humble and seeking God in the midst of change….
I think God’s perspective is above it all and God knows the out come
and is capable of bringing His will to fruition.
What about the over 600 souls that left this church a year or two BEFORE any lawsuits were filed. The supposed “majority” was only concerned about getting them out so they could look like a majority. I heard “good riddance” from those supposed Christians.
Yes it does seem pointless, impossible and destructive even at times. You are right though. God can change the game and with His help, impossible things happen every day.
Please don’t worry that I’ve given up hope entirely. I have held on to the hope all along that those who revile and abuse us today will one day thank us for what we did here. Once some time has passed and emotions have calmed, people won’t be able to help but begin to see things as they actually are, rather than as they were led to believe they absolutely must be.
“Leave with the property they paid for”. There were 30 years and hundreds of hundreds of previous Presbyterians in this church that bought and paid for this PCUSA church wanting only for those future children of PCUSA to have a place to worship and you are only concerned with the few that claim to paid for it all in the last few years. Let’s check how long the leadership here have been members.
Let’s get right down to it. This fight truly wasn’t over theology! Our smaller group is probably evenly divided into conservative, moderate, and liberal. It was over the ineptness of leadership. The leadership even elected someone who wasn’t even baptized. They had to stealthily baptize him at another church later. We were taken in by someone with an agenda to become a big fish in a small pond. Most of the “majority” haven’t worked with him or his “group of advisors” to realize the elders had their heads cut off in this churches new governing system. The power is concentrated in a few individuals.
You missed my point. Regardless of whether or not this PC(USA)-remnant congregation succeeds without the heart and soul of the PCOS congregation, this building will not be shuttered. Land in southern Johnson County, Kansas, is at a premium price. If the PC(USA)-remnant congregation does not succeed, the building will either be given (or sold) to a church like Village to establish a satellite campus, used to plant one of the “1001 New Worshiping Communities” (Heartland has already repurposed one failed congregation’s building for that purpose), or else it will be sold. I never suggested that the PC(USA)-remnant congregation’s death was somehow precluded.
This has been my impression of the pastors in several of the breakaway congregations. I’ve been affiliated with three different congregations that called pastors with severe personal ego problems who struggled with self-esteem issues (not to mention church administration issues). Like ineffective leaders in other organizations, they name a bogeyman outside their own organization to rally their followers, rather than addressing their own organizational and personal issues. In all three congregations, the pastors gathered sympathoizers around them and even had secret meetings (using euphemisms like “discipleship groups” or “Covenant groups”) as they built support for pulling out of the PCUSA into other denominations where they felt they could be a bigger player. In one congregation it worked… in another, the pastor got caught by long time members and removed by the Presbytery (it still resulted in a split), and in the third… the verdict is still out. What hasn’t been reported is that in the months leading up to this split, the leadership consistently misled others about their intent “We have no intention to leave the denomination, we’re just getting the title correct”, etc. Meanwhile, I know of dozens of long time members who were fed up with the petty politics and agenda of the leadership and moved to other PCUSA or Methodist congregations – not because of theology, but because of civility.
Barbara, hypothetically speaking, if the PCUSA were to declare at the GA level, and to have it ratified over the next year by a majority of presbyteries, that it was embracing unitarian universalist “theology” as its core beliefs, and individual congregations decided they wanted to leave with their property, would you argue that it would be wrong because so many Presbyterians of previous generations had helped to purchase the land and build the facilities so that “future children of the PCUSA [would] have a place to worship,” even though those past Presbyterians would have rejected out of hand the unitarian universalist beliefs embraced by the contemporary denomination? Do you really believe that Presbyterians from the 1700s, 1800s and 1900s would approve of the churches they helped build now embracing unrepentant homosexual practice, same-sex marriage, a lack of emphasis on the divinity of Jesus and his atoning work on the cross, the theology poverty across the board when it comes to Reformed essentials, and so on? My guess is their chorus from history would be, after seeing all the rebuffed efforts to reform the PCUSA over the last 30 years, “Let’s separate ourselves from such a misguided group and find a Reformed body more in line with our historic faith.” What do you think?
@ Loren – they hear your point – but don’t want to admit you might be right – they only want to hear the building will be shuttered in three years, blah, blah, blah…
I continue – therefore…
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