Jeff Winter does not buy the argument touted by the secular media that homosexuality is innate. He says there is no science to prove existence of a “gay” gene people have that causes them to be born gay or lesbian. From his perspective, homosexuality is learned behavior – a lifestyle choice – and it’s one that can be changed.
To educate church and community members about homosexuality, First Presbyterian Church of Haines City hosted a seminar Saturday, Jan. 18 that revealed homosexually identified people can change through the transformative power found in Jesus Christ.
Jeff Winter
Winter said the seminar was peaceful with no demonstrations or outbursts, even though a number of online derogatory comments were made about the purpose behind the event and a misperception that it was to persuade gays and lesbians to renounce their same-sex attractions.
“There still was some pushback, but people need to know the truth about homosexuality,” Winter said. “This was not about converting people but sharing the Gospel to help them come to know Christ and develop a deeper relationship with Him. That will lead to change. When people with same-sex attractions know Christ and grow in their relationship with Him, they will stand on God’s Word and experience change.”
Brad Grammer and Kristin Tremba
Experiencing a change through Christ
Speakers Brad Grammer and Kristin Tremba, each of whom formerly identified as homosexual, shared with those in attendance just how the Holy Spirit convicted them and led them away from their former gay and lesbian lifestyles to a relationship with Christ that now sees both of them married with children.
“Both speakers were led by God away from homosexual relationships into a deeper intimacy with the Lord,” said Winter, who has been the pastor at FPC-Haines City for two years and also serves as chairman of OneByOne, a Presbyterian-affiliated organization with a mission of educating and equipping the church to minister the transforming grace and power of Jesus Christ to those in conflict with their sexuality.
The organization’s web site corroborates the purpose behind the seminar, reading, “The Bible teaches that all sexual relations outside of a marriage commitment between one man and one woman are contrary to God’s plan for our lives. Yet, we affirm that the Gospel proclaims God’s unconditional love, forgiveness and redemption of all sin as we submit our lives to Christ.”
Education of a cultural shift
Winter explained that the seminar – attended by approximately 125 people – was used as an avenue to educate people about homosexuality.
“The media has sold the public on the legitimacy of homosexuality,” Winter said. “People are believing the lie that homosexuality is of the Gospel, that God creates both heterosexuals and homosexuals, that it’s an innate trait and we are created that way. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that. Homosexuals base their beliefs on their feelings. Someone has to make a choice to move in that direction.”
Winter was one of the founding members of OneByOne when it started in 1995 to minister to those people struggling with same-sex attraction.
“It was a way to speak to the aggressive, liberal wing of the church at the time,” he said. “We had no idea back then how pervasive homosexuality would be today. Now it’s so ‘in your face.’
Changing hearts and lives
Offering a seminar dealing with homosexuality was just part of the educational purpose Winter had in mind for the presentation. He also hoped it would be an opportunity to show that God still changes hearts and lives while shedding some light on a subject that many conservative churches tend to shy away from discussing.
“There are many people who believe that homosexuality is OK, but it’s swallowing us up as a culture,” he said. “We need to be teaching people the truth about homosexuality because we don’t hear it enough in our churches, and the media is doing a good job telling us it’s OK.”
Winter pointed out that people need to know that God can bring about change in all people, even those who show same-sex attraction.
“God still is in the business of changing lives, and He can bring someone with same-sex attraction out of those feelings,” Winter said. “The message we don’t hear spoken is that people can change. The message that people can change needs to be heard by the church.”
Grammer and Tremba were examples of such life-changing events.
Focus of the speakers
Grammer spoke of traumatic issues in life that often lead to a change in lifestyle. In his case, it was a desire to receive affirmation for who he was from his father, a reason often cited in the traditional view of homosexual males.
Tremba focused on how the church has done a bad job reaching out to those with same-sex attractions, failing to witness to them and share with them the redeeming grace of God.
“Church should be a safe place for people with such attractions to come and share their struggles,” Winter said. “Instead we have not loved well those who have same-sex attraction; we have pushed them away.”
Tremba pointed out that there are many people with same-sex attractions who know their behavior is not right, and they seek God’s grace and forgiveness as they try to change.
“She spoke of praying for and showing grace to those who are struggling with same-sex attraction,” Winter said of Tremba’s address.
Overcoming through a relationship with Jesus
In a day and time when the Presbyterian Church (USA) has moved to allow the ordination of gays and lesbians as pastors and lay leaders, Winter noted that the Bible still shows that sexual relationships are reserved for a man and a woman in the context of marriage, and FPC-Haines City holds to that Scriptural teaching as a confessing church even with the denomination looking to redfine marriage at its upcoming General Assembly in June.
“This church has gone on record that we believe sex should be between a man and woman in the context of marriage,” he said. “We believe in Biblical marriage. Anything outside one man and one woman in terms of sex is wrong, therefore, homosexuality is wrong based on what we believe.”
Noting that homosexuality is a sin, Winter still sees the need to reach out to those with same-sex attractions, providing them an opportunity to experience God’s transformative power offered through acceptance and following of Christ.
“In my opinion, the church has done almost nothing to minister to homosexuals. We don’t want to get to know them or learn about their problems,” Winter said. “We need to pray for and love those homosexually indentified persons. I do believe their lifestyle is one of sin, but we need to provide tangible love for them.”
With that love comes the opportunity for those burdened by same-sex attraction to establish a relationship with Jesus.
“The only way someone can fully change is to come into a living relationship with Jesus Christ,” Winter said. “It’s not a matter of doing what’s right or wrong, but encouraging these people to go deeper in their relationship with Jesus. The goal is not to make a homosexual become heterosexual. The goal is to let those struggling with same-sex attraction go deeper with Christ. They need to know that hope comes from knowing Jesus to help them say no to that homosexual attraction. Through a day to day walk with Him they will commit to stay true to the Word of God.”
16 Comments. Leave new
This view of homosexuality is terribly confused and distorted. It uses language that sounds like Christian compassion, but it is not. It is destructive, hypocritical, judgement based on fear and ignorance. Jesus the Christ is weeping over this distortion of his Good News.
In my opinion, homosexuality, pedophilia, bestiality, etc. are all the result of a mental illness that should be treatable like any other mental illness. However, just as an alcoholic must admit he/she has a problem before the problem can be addressed, so do the people who pursue these perverted sexual lifestyles.
The message proclaimed in the seminar reported in this article is in no way “terribly confused and distorted.” To suggest that homosexual practice—two men or two women engaging in sexual intercourse with one another—is acceptable behavior in God’s sight is destructive, for it is a lie. As proclaimed in the Scriptures, which God Himself breathed (II Tim. 3.16) homosexuality is a sin, a form of sexual immorality (Gen. 19.4-9 [cf. Jude 7], Lev. 18.22, 20.13, Dt. 23.17, Judg. 19.22-25, Rom. 1.24-27, I Cor. 6.9-10, I Tim. 1.9-10), and “God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.” (Heb. 13.4) However, the good news is that those who commit homosexual acts can repent of them and turn to Jesus Christ and be healed and forgiven, as did some of those in the Church at Corinth (I Cor. 6.11), and as did Brad Grammer and Kristin Tremba, as reported above. To suggest that they cannot repent of their former sins is truly “destructive, hypocritical judgment based on fear and ignorance,” and a “distortion of (Jesus Christ’s) Good News.” After all, His “Good News” began with, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mt. 4.17), not, “You have no need to repent, for homosexuality is acceptable behavior in the sight of God.”
What is interesting about Jeff Winter is that he never cites any statistics about his record of “success”. He never mentions the story of Exodus International that had two leaders who were gay, then straight and then married and then going back to being gay. The reparation was ineffective did not take and many lives were hurt.
Rev. Winter may make a ministry on this part of life, but it seems in the long run to be destructive and damaging.
As for the comments by Bill, the ignorance level is appalling.
Let’s really look at the verses from Romans which talks about the origin of same-sex attractions:
Romans 1:23 [They] exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
*****Other religions of Paul’s day worshiped statues in the shape of men or animals as deities. Paul is saying that people chose to worship these statues rather than the God of his religion.
Romans 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen.
*****Again, other religions of Paul’s day worshiped statues in the shape of men or animals as deities.
Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
*****Because of worshiping statues in the shape of men or animals instead of the God of Paul’s religion, God gave these people over to [demonic forces which cause] same-sex attractions.
Romans 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.
Paul is clearly stating that same-sex attractions come from worshiping the deities of other religions rather than the God of Christianity. Anyone can see that Paul’s statement is incorrect. We all know many faithful Christians who have always worshiped the god of the Bible, and yet they have same-sex attractions. And we know that adherents of other religious faiths that worship “false” gods have no higher percentage of same-sex attracted people than do people of the Christian faith. Paul wrote an ignorant and insensitive slur on same-sex attracted people. I’m very sorry to all you Christians who think the Bible is the infallible word of god, but here is an example that it is not. Its the fallible word of man.
One more note, yes a homosexual man CAN marry a heterosexual woman. But I think that marriage should include romance, and passion, and sexuality. A homosexual man marrying a heterosexual woman has no more of these than would be if a heterosexual woman married another heterosexual woman. Its a complete charade. I feel bad for people like Kristin Tremba. She has really torn herself up over her same-sex attractions being in conflict with her religion. But there comes a time when a person has to use common sense and a bit of smarts and recognize that religion and its book of rules is a man made thing.
Rev. Winter, of course there is no “gay gene,” just as their is no “straight gene.” The balance of scientific research suggests that an adult’s sexual orientation is caused by a complex array of genetics, prenatal hormones, socio-cultural influences and pscho-social factors. It is not as simple as a single gene or an individual’s choice. Read Dean Hamer, the preeminent researcher in the field. Until you inform yourself about the science of sexual orientation, you are spreading misinformation based on your own willful ignorance.
Brad Grammer and Kristin Tremba can live however they choose, but these so-called “ministries” that purport to change sexual orientation are not just disingenuous, they do real harm, especially to young people who are just learning about their own sexuality. Ignorance, guilt and shame do not help.
And Loren Golden, you can cite as many Biblical texts as you want, but it will not change the fact that you are dead wrong about what the Bible says about homosexuality — because it says absolutely nothing. The Biblical texts know nothing of sexual orientation. They express the understanding of an ancient culture. To deny that fact is like denying evolution — facts are facts, even if they don’t square with your religious prejudices.
The ship has sailed on this issue, folks. LGBT persons are equal in God’s sight — just as they were created. Your children will look back on you and shake their heads.
I cannot agree more with Jim Phoenix’s comments. Like one of the other commentators, would that Rev Winter provide some statistics supporting his philosophy. Something like the estimated percentage of gays in the US population, the percentage of those who wished to change their sexual orientation, the percentage of those who were successful, and an analysis of the methods used by that final figure. Of the gay folks I have known in my life I have yet to be aware of any who wished to become straight. The notion that one would knowingly choose a gay lifestyle in our society defies logic.
When DOMA was shot down by the Supreme Court, the lawyer who argued against the Defense of Marriage Act walked onto the steps of the Supreme Court and announced, “People should be able to marry whomever they love.” Hmmm. That sounds scientific, doesn’t it? No. It’s based solely on emotion!
Let’s suppose for a moment that my son and I are passionately in love with one another. Should we be allowed to marry? No??? Why not? What gives you the right to condemn me for wanting to marry my son? This is the way God made me. I can’t help it.
This is the argument we hear from homosexuals and their advocates all the time. I can’t help myself. God made me this way.
Remember the school teacher Mary LaTourneau (name is likely misspelled/misremembered) who fell in love with her 12 year old student? They were in love. They had a child together. She went to prison. Was her love wrong or misguided? Using the logic of homosexuals, this is the way God made her. Would a loving God make her this way and then deny her the ability to act on her desires??? What an evil God!
God created us human, with human frailties. But God also created us with an intellect and free will. The Bible is our guideline for living. If homosexuals want to cherry-pick the parts of the Bible they adhere to, then that is their choice. If others want to deny the existence of God, then that is their choice. God does not expect nor does He desire his people to act on every impulse that comes into the human brain. He expects us to use our brain to make choices that are holy and healthy. He expects us to use self-control. We are not wild animals, incapable of self-control.
The issue of hating homosexuals— except, perhaps, in the case of Westboro Baptist Church— is a false argument. The acceptance of homosexuality in the church is not about hate. It’s about choice. It’s about choosing to be obedient to the Word of God or choosing to follow desires that God calls sin. An just like the Prodigal Son in the Bible, God lets the wayward son live his life of debauchery until, at last, he comes to his senses, returns to his father, and begs for forgiveness.
Lind, you have missed the point of the passage of Romans 1.18-32.
First, Paul wrote, “I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, ‘The righteous shall live by faith.’” (Rom. 1.16-17; citation from Hab. 2.4)
Following this, Paul wrote, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.” (Rom. 1.18) All that follows in the first chapter of Romans then follows those who, in their unrighteousness, suppress the truth of God. Verses 19-20 state that “what can be known about God” has been clearly revealed (cf. Ps. 19). Verses 21-23 refer to humankind’s rejection of God as He has revealed Himself, substituting idols for Him. Please note that what is offensive to God is not the substitution of a carven idol but any idol at all. To reject certain aspects of God’s character (e.g., by saying, “I cannot believe in a God who would…”, if what is being denied is revealed in Scripture) is tantamount to rejecting God and substituting one’s own foolish ideas about what God should be, which is the heart and soul of idolatry.
Verse 24, which you passed over, states that “God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator.” Paul did not say that “Same-sex attractions come from worshiping the deities of other religions rather than the God of Christianity.” Rather, same-sex attractions are latent in the hearts of some men and women as “the lusts of their hearts.” They aren’t something that God put there as punishment for apostasy. Neither are they caused by “demonic forces”, as you wrongly claim that Paul is stating in verse 26.
Sins of the body come from the human heart. As the Lord Jesus said, “Out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander.” (Mt. 15.19) The human heart is corrupt and not to be trusted (Gen. 6.5, 8.21, Prov. 28.26, Jer. 17.9). Every human being who has ever lived (save Jesus Christ alone) has been prone to multiple types of sin, all of which proceed from the human heart. To be sure, not every person is prone to every sin, but every person is prone to multiple sins, and some people are prone to the sin of homosexuality, as this is manifested by same-gender sexual attraction.
Now God “is able to keep (us) from stumbling and to present (us) blameless before the presence of his glory.” (Jude 24) He is not, however, obligated to do so. And in preparation for judgment, He hardens the hearts of those who have so offended Him as to keep them from repentance, as is evidenced from Pharaoh (Ex. 4.21, 7.3,13-14,22, 8.19, 9.7,12,35, 10.1,20,27, 11.10, 14.4,8, Rom. 9.17), the Canaanites (Josh. 11.20), and Hophni and Phinehas (I Sam. 2.25). God “has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.” (Rom. 9.18)
That a culture or society has women who, in Paul’s words, “exchanged natural relations (i.e., with men) for those that are contrary to nature,” (Rom. 1.26) and men who “likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men,” (Rom. 1.27) is evidence that God has left such individuals to their own devices and perhaps even hardened their hearts, as is evidenced by the hard-hearted attitude prevalent in the world today against Scripture’s proscriptions against homosexual behavior.
Now, as far as the fact that there are Christians who worship God as He is revealed in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, who also suffer from same-gender sexual attraction, does not mean that God has left such individuals to their own devices. Such individuals are tempted by “the lusts of their hearts” to commit homosexuality, but the temptation to commit a sin is not the same as committing that sin. Indeed, the Lord Jesus Christ “in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.” (Heb. 4.15) And “because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.” (Heb. 2.18) Just because a man or a woman is tempted by same-gender sexual attraction to commit homosexuality does not make him or her guilty of the sin of homosexuality.
Contrary to the lie perpetuated by this morally perverse world, having same-gender sexual attraction does not make one a homosexual; engaging in sexual intercourse with an individual who is the same gender as oneself makes one a homosexual, and therefore guilty of the sin of homosexuality. Conversely, when one repents of the sin of homosexuality, ceasing to engage in sexual intercourse with an individual who is the same gender as oneself, one is no longer a homosexual. Paul identified homosexuals among those who will not “inherit the kingdom of God” (I Cor. 6.9-10), but he also stated some in the Church of Corinth had committed the sins identified in I Corinthians 6.9-10 who would not “inherit the kingdom of God”, but they “were washed, (they) were sanctified, (they) were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.” (I Cor. 6.11) To be sure, repentance and forgiveness of the sin of homosexuality does not mean that such individuals will therefore be free from same-gender sexual attraction (and therefore from the temptation to commit homosexuality) any more than the man who repents of pornography will be free from the temptation to view illicit images, or the man who repents of gambling will be free from the temptation to gamble, or the man who repents of drunkenness will be free from the temptation to overindulge in alcohol. Indeed, this temptation may very well remain to remind such individuals of the sin from which they have been delivered and that they need to rely daily upon the provision of the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit to keep them from sin when the temptation comes (Rom. 8.1-11, Gal. 5.16-18).
Finally, you should not “feel bad for people like Kristin Tremba.” She has chosen, by God’s grace, to rely in the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit to strengthen her in her hour of temptation when she feels sexually attracted to other women to keep her from that sin. Her trust in the Holy Spirit—and in the atonement wrought on her behalf by the Lord Jesus Christ on Calvary—will ultimately be rewarded. As the Lord Jesus Himself said, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.” (Rev. 3.20-21)
Mr. Phoenix, your argument that “the Bible says nothing about homosexuality” because “the Biblical texts know nothing of sexual orientation” is entirely without merit. As I have already told you, “sexual orientation” is the invention of the unbelieving world to explain the phenomenon of same-gender sexual attraction and to justify homosexuality, bi-sexuality, and transgenderism, and is not an incontrovertible “fact” that one “knows”. The same is true of the theory of macroevolution, which claims without scientific proof that one species can genetically mutate into another species that cannot mate either with the “parent” species from which it purportedly evolved or with other species that also purportedly evolved from said “parent” species. To assert, as you continue to do, that God regards homosexuality as morally acceptable behavior without any authoritative revelation to corroborate your claim is utter dogmatism. You have believed and are propagating a lie. For the sake of your immortal soul, I urge you to repent of it and seek the forgiveness of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Loren Golden, that was quite a “noise bomb” you dropped. You had to jump from book to book of the Bible in an attempt to avoid facing what Paul is clearly saying. Paul is saying that same-sex attractions come from worshiping pagan gods instead of the God of the Bible. Paul got it wrong. This is evidence that the Bible contains at least one error. If the Bible contains just one error, then reason tells us that it can’t be the infallible word of a god. It is the word of man…like the man Paul.
I have now included verse 24:
Romans 1:23 [They] exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
*****The pagan religions of Paul’s day worshiped statues in the shape of men or animals as deities. Paul is saying that people chose to worship these pagan statues rather than the God of his religion.
Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
*****Because of what these people were doing in their pagan religions, God allowed impure sexual desires to develop in their hearts.
Romans 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator–who is forever praised. Amen.
*****Again, pagan religions of Paul’s day worshiped statues in the shape of men or animals as deities.
Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
*****Because of worshiping pagan statues in the shape of men or animals instead of the God of Paul’s religion, God gave these people over to [possibly demonic forces which cause] same-sex attractions.
Romans 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another.
Paul is clearly stating that same-sex attractions come from worshiping the deities of other religions rather than the God of Christianity. Anyone can see that Paul’s statement is incorrect. We all know many faithful Christians who have always worshiped the god of the Bible, and yet they have same-sex attractions. And we know that adherents of other religious faiths that worship “false” gods have no higher percentage of same-sex attracted people than do people of the Christian faith. Paul wrote an ignorant and insensitive slur on same-sex attracted people. I’m very sorry to all you Christians who think the Bible is the infallible word of god, but here is an example that it is not. Its the fallible word of man.
The idea of proof texting your argument is so not Presbyterian. Loren and Lind wage a mighty war of words, that miss the point of the whole Jeff Winter ministry. A few ( or not so few, we don’t know) gay persons have changed their behavior for a while (we don’t know the long term situation, or even any statistics).
One of the major reparative ministries—Exodus International closed up shop a while back as it was not successful in its ministry and caused actual harm. This is not mentioned and not proof-texted. And why is that?
The article and the proof texts are simply short on facts an long on vagueness.
Linden,
As the Apostle Paul wrote in his second epistle to Timothy, “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.” (II Tim. 3.16-17) As such, any one passage in Scripture must be interpreted in the context of the whole, inasmuch as God is the author of Scripture. Therefore, your argument that it is inappropriate to “jump from book to book of the Bible”, that is, to consult other passages of Scripture, in order to interpret the meaning of a particular passage of Scripture is without merit.
Paul is not “clearly stating that same-sex attractions come from worshiping the deities of (non-Christian) religions”. Paul in this passage does not state where same-gender sexual attraction comes from. What he is stating is that when a people turns from “the truth about God” to worship other things, God (at least sometimes) gives “them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves”, including “dishonorable passions”, and he describes these “dishonorable passions” as homosexual acts. These “lusts” are already in “their hearts”, and God is giving them up to these “lusts”. Your forced interpretation of this passage is false, as is your pretense for rejecting Scripture as “the fallible word of man”.
The current social climate in the Western world bears witness to the truth of Paul’s testimony in Romans 1.18-32. Beginning in the so-called “Enlightenment” of the late 17th century through the end of the 18th century, Europe began rejecting Christianity and the revelation of God in Jesus Christ, especially in its institutions of higher learning. In the 19th century, theologically liberal theologians like Friedrich Schleiermacher, Albrecht Ritschl, and Adolf Harnack sought to recast Christianity into terms of thought acceptable to the modernists who had rejected Classical Christianity in both its Protestant and Roman Catholic forms, thereby compromising the Christian Church in Europe to the world. As a result, by the time the sexual revolution of the 1960s arrived, Christianity in Europe was largely dead.
Here in the United States, the secular philosophy of the Enlightenment had very little influence, owing primarily to the Great Awakening of the 18th century, through the preaching of such notables as Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, and John Wesley. The secular philosophies of Europe did not begin making inroads in the American Church until after the Civil War, with the arrival of Charles Darwin’s Theory of Evolution and European Theological Liberalism. By the early decades of the Twentieth Century, the Mainline Protestant denominations in the United States (including the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America) caved in to the pressure to compromise themselves theologically to secular ideologies.
Meanwhile, the divorce rate in the United States grew from practically nothing at the time of the Civil War to approximately fifty percent by the mid-1970s, where it has held steady ever since. In the context of loosened standards of marriage, the sexual revolution occurred in the 1960s, resulting in a precipitous rise in extra-marital sexual intercourse to the extent that today, it is the rare couple that has not engaged in sexual intercourse before the wedding night. And also since the sexual revolution, there has been and increasing effort to normalize homosexuality in the culture.
The 1960s also saw a major turning point in the Mainline Protestant denominations. Hitherto, the Mainline Protestant denominations had been experiencing modest growth. But beginning in the 1960s, they entered into a long decline that has never been halted. They have lacked the theological conviction to preach the Bible’s teaching on sexual ethics, and in the last two decades, they have caved to social pressure to normalize homosexuality. As a consequence, they have become utterly irrelevant and as unable to reverse the Godlessness that has arisen in America as the Church in Europe is to reverse the Godlessness over there.
And in the context of the growing Godlessness in the Western world, we have witnessed the giving up of those afflicted with same-gender sexual attraction to those desires, committing homosexual acts, just as Paul in Romans 1.18-32 said would happen. Consequently, your contention that “Paul wrote an ignorant and insensitive slur on same-sex attracted people” and that, therefore, the Bible is “the fallible word of man” is also without merit.
Loren,
When you need to go off subject that far, it shows that you don’t want to accept the clear reality of what Paul wrote…
People rejected Paul’s God and worshiped the idols of pagan religions.
Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts (same-sex attractions). Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
Romans 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another (same-sex attractions).
Rejection of Paul’s God through idol worship ===========> people develop shameful lusts (same-sex attractions)
Paul didn’t say some of the men and women experienced lust for the same sex, he indicates that men and women in general who rejected Paul’s God experienced shameful lusts (same-sex attractions).
This makes me wonder why not all Hindus and Buddhists experience shameful lusts (same-sex attractions).
Paul made it clear what his opinion was about the origin of shameful lusts…the rejection of his God through idol worship. But we know his opinion was wrong. We all know many people who reject Paul’s God and do not have shameful lusts (same-sex attractions). So clearly God was not guiding the writing of Paul.
Loren, your faith is man made. What Paul wrote shows us he was not being inspired by the supernatural. Loren, if you had a good argument, you wouldn’t have to babble on and on in so many paragraphs about unrelated things to what we are talking about.
Linden,
Despite your assertions to the contrary, I did not “go off subject”, and neither did I “babble on and on”. I made a clear and cogent argument, and your insistence that Paul’s message in Romans 1.18-32 must absolutely be interpreted in isolation from the rest of Scripture and must absolutely be treated as necessary cause-and-effect is impairing your ability to properly interpret the passage. I stand by my interpretation.
As for my faith, Jesus Christ is “the founder and perfecter” of it (Heb. 12.2); it is not “man-made”, as you allege. “Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. … Without faith, it is impossible to please (God), for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” (Heb. 11.1-3,6)
Loren,
Jesus isn’t the founder and perfecter of your faith…Paul is. Also, Paul and Joseph Smith have a lot in common. They have both found a lot of suckers who believe everything they say.