Kudos for standing firm
Posted Thursday, October 30, 2003
Kudos to one and all for the Lay Committee’s public stand. Although stating the obvious, you will no doubt be castigated by many for being nasty, unloving and divisive, when in fact so many in the PCUSA, from our national leadership on down to and through the liberal special-interest groups, are working so hard to steer us away from the truth and the faith once received by preaching a new gospel which of course is no Gospel at all.
I know that, like the Apostle Paul, you know the joy of standing firm and realize any persecutions that are sure to come your way are really badges of honor for taking such a leadership role in defending the faith, and that you will not weary in your work.
I note that one such letter was already posted on yesterday’s Presby Web, and it will be interesting to hear what others have to say. Since we’ve reached a stage of such embarrassment for the Gospel (per the send-ups about Philadelphia Presbytery and its support for a Messianic congregation) – and any seemingly firm and bold stand for the foundational truths we hold as members of his body, I’m sure the members of PLC are ready for the onslaught of negative reaction.
I would also hope and pray that others would see the heartfelt need for such a declaration and respond in support of your action. Hopefully this can be a positive step in correcting the downward spiral our denomination now finds itself in.
Thank heavens God has raised up men and women who down through the years have indeed stood firm, sometimes to the death, for the truth, grace, and freedom found only in Jesus Christ – you are continuing that long tradition in answering his call to faithful witness at this time.
Bill Prey
Couple make their own ‘Declaration’
Posted Thursday, October 30, 2003
I’ve just finished reading “A Declaration of Conscience.” My wife and I recently decided that our own “Declaration of Conscience” needed to be acted upon. We have been members of the PCUSA for the last 14 years. We have been members of a strong Scripture-based fellowship and have not been nor are we now displeased with this body of believers.
However, conscience demanded of us that we at this time needed to leave our membership in the PCUSA and as a result of that action, also our membership in this local body. There were a number of issues among which is the sending of monies to a denomination headquarters in the form of the “per capita” remitted to the local presbytery and to the national headquarters.
It was with deep sadness and sorrow that we submitted our letter asking to be removed from the roles of a church (local) that we love and have heartily supported for a good number of years. We continue to attend and serve in those areas that do not require membership. Our tithe is designated to a specific area that is not subject to “per capita.”
Yes, there are consequences for actions taken by leaders in this denomination. That is how they have touched us.
Paul and Lucille McKay
Good things are happening in the PCUSA
Posted Thursday, October 30, 2003
I am very sorry you are unable to see the faithful, untiring work that is being accomplished under the banner of the Presbyterian Church (USA). Through my work in recent years, I have been able to witness the Presbyterian Church at work in the Synod of the Pacific, in border ministry in Texas, in south Florida, in and through the Washington Office of the PCUSA, in the Synod of the Rockies and Alaska Northwest. Lives are being transformed and the Gospel is proclaimed with joy and enthusiasm. It is readily evident that we are an imperfect people and I don’t expect that I will always or even often agree with my colleagues except on the truth that Jesus Christ is Lord.
It is a sad day when you seek to punish sincere, faithful servants and weaken the witness to our living Lord by holding tight to your money! I think that Jesus may have much to teach us when it comes to generosity and humility.
May the Lord forgive us all for our stubborn, pig-headed bickering.
Jack M. Terry Interim ministry specialist
Look where Calvinism has taken us – Louisville
Posted Thursday, October 30, 2003
Jacobus Arminius was right 400 years ago and he is more right today. Calvin won the battle and lost the war. Look where Calvinism has taken us – Louisville. Calvinism is so easily perverted to allow us to feel comfortable with sin.
Sovereignty of God is a “buzz word” tool to excuse man’s responsibility for any role in salvation and Christ-like behavior. God is omnipotent and not “sovereign.” God gave man a responsibility in his salvation – even though a small one. This is not rocket surgery! There is some small part of my pitiful and sinful nature that wants to be near God! There are those who want to be totally depraved but I am not!
Look at the results. Calvinists don’t care a wit about evangelism. PCUSA numbers go down year after year. They don’t believe John 3:16 or the Great Commission. Look where the Gospel is really reaching people – the community church movement. Ever been in a 5,000 seat church full of committed Christians under 40 years of age filled with the “Holy Spirit” dedicating their lives to Christ? (Forget the Jumbotrons. It works.) The belief in predestination, sovereignty of God, irresistible grace, and “once saved always saved” has undermined evangelism because it doesn’t matter to Calvinists. The evangelical movement will either save the PCUSA or it won’t. I do not intend to give up and let tens of billions of dollars of assets promote abortion, Wiccans, homosexual behavior and socialism.
Douglas Anderson
Let Wiccans study theology
Posted Thursday, October 30, 2003
If a Wiccan wants to study theology, I say let them. However, I would be concerned if Presbyterian scholarship funds are used to support such a quest. There is a certain irony in all this. The Wiccans, occultists and pagans I am familiar with ascribe a spiritual power to a source beyond themselves that is often absent in institutional Christianity.
Pastor Jerry J. Voss Millbrook Church, Fresno, Calif.
Many families have already left PCUSA
Posted Thursday, October 30, 2003
It is a shame that it has taken everyone such a long time to see what is happening and has happened. This Declaration of Conscience should have been made public two years ago. There has been way too much talk and a serious lack of action.
Many, many families have left because of the most serious problems. What true Christian does not want to fight for what is right? But, what parent can put their young children in the front lines of this turmoil that is sickening at best.
I left the PCUSA after seeing firsthand how the liberal crowd did not want normal “traditional” Christians who believed that the Bible should actually be followed. Tolerance is everything to them and the only sin is not to agree with them.
I have peacefully withdrawn from this denomination that I participated in for 33 years, but only after I faithfully protested against many things that I witnessed to be wrong.
I, as a father, could not leave my young children in the hands of people that clearly did not want to understand the Word of God.
If there had been a more conservative Presbyterian denomination near our home, that is probably where I would have gone. Maybe, someone should try to invite the EPC to Central Ohio.
But, the denomination is not as important as the Church itself. I am a Christian first and always. I prefer to stand on solid ground, not sinking sand.
Willard Camm
Declaration is better late than never
Posted Thursday, October 30, 2003
Better late than never. I have always said that the Holy Bible is a living truth. Who so ever goes against it does not remain Christian any more. How is it possible that we obey nine commandments and preach and teach and struggle to declare the tenth commandment does not suit us?
A Christian must obey all commandments in the same spirit as they are given by God through his Word. We have to be absolutely obedient to God. We can’t be choosy what suits our desires and what does not. God teaches us self-control and if we can not do that we must declare that we are not Christians.
“The Declaration of Conscience” by the Presbyterian is worth considering. It has come at a time when our historical faith is endangered by forces of evil that have crept into the church. These aggressive forces will destroy the body of Christ if “common believers” would not react now. The statement that “we are two faiths within one denomination” is correct and we must decide which faith we have to follow. Are we for God or against him, are we for Lord Jesus Christ or against him and are we for the Living Word of God or against. There is no third choice. Well done, Presbyterian Lay Committee!
Bishop Timotheus Nasir Presbyterian bishop of Pakistan
Where’s the beef about Jewish-Christian congregation?
Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2003
I fail to see what all the uproar is regarding the PCUSA support of a Jewish Christian congregation. Has our denomination forgotten that Jesus was a Jew and so were the apostles as well as most of the early followers of Jesus?
Three out of the four gospels were written by Jews, as was almost all of the New Testament.
When Jesus sent the twelve out on a short term mission trip, he limited their ministry to the Jews only: “These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.” (Matthew 10:5-9, NIV)
What right have we to exclude the Jews from hearing and receiving the good news of the Gospel? It’s interesting that a denomination that wants to be so inclusive as to welcome unrepentant sinners, those who don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus, those who don’t believe in the resurrection, and those who don’t accept the authority of Scripture should raise such a fuss about evangelizing “the lost sheep of Israel.” After all, it was his Jewish followers to whom Jesus spoke the words of the Great Commission: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28:18-20, NIV)
Peggy A. Alexander Kirk of the Hills, Tulsa, Okla.
PCUSA leaders need to wake up and smell the roses
Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2003
The leaders of the PCUSA need to understand that if they are ever successful in putting homosexuals in our pulpits, they will have won the battle but lost the war, as at least 50 percent of the PCUSA membership will walk.
There are denominations where homosexual leadership is not an issue. Yes, there are other denominations to go to. Bible-believing Presbyterians will be no part of a denomination that has homosexuals in their pulpits. Not only is it not Biblical, it puts us in the same boat with the Catholics who have many legal cases against the church because of deviate homosexual priest’s molesting young boys. These staggering legal costs would put the PCUSA in bankruptcy. When are our leaders going to wake up and smell the roses?
Ed & Barbara McLean
PCUSA’s priorities are wrong
Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2003
I do not understand how PCUSA has become more concerned about political correctness than spreading God’s word to the world. The Bible is very clear about such things as homosexuality and bisexuality. We are all sinners and are all welcomed to become members of church, but only those whom we can look up to for guidance and trust should be our spiritual leaders. How can we even consider ordaining practicing homosexuals or bisexuals? This would be the same as ordaining practicing alcoholics or habitual liars. The fact that PCUSA is even considering this shows how far we have moved away from spreading God’s Word and how much more concerned we are with looking politically correct to our peers.
Daryl Gessner First Presbyterian Chuch, Cartersville, Ga.
Difference between behavior, preference
Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2003
In the interest of full disclosure, I should probably preface my response to Ms. Van Brocklin by saying that I am a graduate of Hope College; as such, “Alma” primarily conjures up images of one of the few football teams we could beat during my time there. This probably doesn’t affect my replies, but given that she shares a surname with one of the great QBs in NFL history, I can’t be certain.
That said, I have three rejoinders to Ms. Van Brocklin’s statements. First, I continue to deny, along with others, that there are such as “GLBT persons,” any more than there are “alcoholic persons.” We aren’t our desires, not even our sexual desires, nor are we our weaknesses (or, for that matter, our strengths; being intelligent or a good athlete doesn’t define one as a person either). We are people who have desires, strengths, weaknesses, etc., but they do not define us; we are bigger, far bigger, than even the sum total of such things. (This is not a new point, either, though our culture seems determined to lose it.) Thus what we have, truly, are people who have GLBT preferences.
Second, with the obfuscatory “GLBT persons” removed from the equation, it is possible to see that the issue is not preferences but behavior. Ms. Van Brocklin is completely correct to assert that the Book of Order does not bar people from ordination on the grounds of homosexual preference. It does, however, bar people from ordination on the grounds of homosexual behavior, and it is on these grounds that Ms. Marlow’s ordination would be unconstitutional.
Three, no one may be called “faithful” who is not faithfully seeking God and striving, by his power, to live a holy life. This means, for Ms. Marlow as for all the rest of us, setting aside one’s own will for God’s will, which includes giving up one’s own desires if they conflict with his will. Ms. Marlow, as an active lesbian, is not doing so, and thus may not be described as “wonderfully faithful;” and while she may very well be “working to nurture our young people in their faith,” she is not, at least in one respect, working to nurture them in the faith which was “once for all delivered to the saints.”
Rev. Rob Harrison Grand Lake, Col.
Book provides light, not heat
Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2003
I would highly recommend a book written by Gordon College Professor Marvin R. Wilson, Ph.D. Our Father Abraham: Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith.
In addition, Professor Wilson has produced an excellent video-documentary and study guide. I believe this material can enrich this discussion in Philadelphia Presbytery – providing light rather than heat. Marvin Wilson could also serve as an excellent ‘in the flesh’ resource.
This study material is available through Auteur Productions of Potomac, Md., auteur@worldnet.att.net.
Rob McClelland Furlong, Pa.
Homosexual argument not about salvation
Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2003
It made me very sad to read Mark Achtemeier’s characterization of Robert Gagnon’s position on homosexuality as “Pelagian.” Pelagius was the British monk, contemporary with Augustine, who thought that we have in ourselves the ability to obey God and live sinless lives. Gagnon’s article begins by saying that Paul’s letter to the Romans places people “face on the floor, open to whatever way God chooses to redeem us because we have nothing to bring with us” [italics added].
The homosexuality debate is not about whether a practicing homosexual can be saved. Of course he can! It is not about whether he must stop practicing homosexuality first. Of course, that is not a requirement, any more than a thief must give up stealing first.
Rather, a saved thief now hears God’s call to wrestle with and ask for deliverance from his thievery. Ditto for homosexuality, promiscuity, gossiping, voting for the party that will do the most for me, and all other expressions of our rebellion against God. The homosexuality debate is solely over whether this activity is or is not sinful.
If it is not, then we celebrate it as part of God’s good creation, which is what the Covenant Network and its allies want. If it is sinful, then God calls the homosexual to struggle against his sin in exactly the same way in which he calls the rest of us to struggle against our sins. If that is Pelagianism, then Luther and Calvin, to say nothing of Augustine and Paul himself were Pelagians. We should be glad to join their company.
Dan Reuter Prospect, Pa.
Let the world know that Jews need Jesus, too
Posted Monday, October 27, 2003
For more than a month now, I have been investigating congregation Avodat Yisrael. While I was initially thrilled that the PCUSA would back a Messianic congregation, I quickly became wary of this congregation’s soteriology. I have interviewed all the principals involved and have unearthed other resources.
My concerns can be found in the articles in the general news media, and they have been confirmed through interviews. This deficient soteriology is being mandated by the PCUSA itself.
As someone who has been involved in the Messianic community for years, I beg you to let the world know that Jews need Jesus, too. If Jesus did not come for Jews, he did not come for anyone.
2000 years ago, Jesus was not considered to be for Gentiles. Now, it is the reverse. Please, I beg you! My Gentile cohorts! Do not show ingratitude. Don’t prevent the gospel from going to all people.
That view isn’t based on Scripture. How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news! I am not ashamed of the gospel which is first for the Jew and also for the Greek.
Geoff Robinson Haddon Heights, N.J.
Church believes that the gospel of Jesus Christ is for everyone
Posted Monday, October 27, 2003
I am the pastor of Church on the Mall in Philadelphia, the congregation that is leasing space to Congregation Avodat Yisrael. I appreciated your article on Congregation Avodat Yisrael dated October 23, 2003. I appreciated the balanced approach you have taken in reporting the different views of this ministry, but from the perspective of Church on the Mall, I believe some clarification is needed. I would like to point out that the worship center Congregation Avodat Yisrael currently uses has been and continues to be the sanctuary of Church on the Mall since 1972. Church on the Mall has held weekly worship services in the Plymouth Meeting Mall, located in a northwest suburb of Philadelphia, since 1967 and has opened her doors to many different outreach ministries over the past 37 years. The “discreetly placed baptismal font” belongs to Church on the Mall and the session of Church on the Mall has been clear that it is to stay within the sanctuary at all times and in plain view. There have been several occasions where Church on the Mall has had to replace the font to its appropriate place in the sanctuary during our relationship with Congregation Avodat Yisrael.
I realize that these issues may seem to be petty and insignificant, but our support of the Presbytery of Philadelphia’s new Messianic NCD has not been in any way petty. We entered into this relationship fully aware of the consequences, which have included the very real perception that Church on the Mall does not exist anymore, vandalism to our prayer room, and the continual harassment of church members and staff through phone calls, mail and personal visits.
The session of Church on the Mall believes that the gospel of Jesus Christ is for everyone and seeks to honor the ordination vows we all take, including the vow; “Will you be governed by our church’s polity, and will you abide by its discipline? Will you be a friend among your colleagues in ministry, working with them, subject to the ordering of God’s Word and Spirit?” (G-14.0207 e). We answer, “we will” and will continue to pray for the Holy Spirit to be the guide and force behind all of our ministry endeavors.
Rev. Scott K. Bohr