A judge has ruled in favor of First Presbyterian Church in Houston in its legal battle with New Covenant Presbytery for its property.
On Feb. 20, Judge Wesley R. Ward granted the church’s request for summary judgment, “finding that there is no genuinely disputed issue of material fact and that plaintiff is entitled to judgment as a matter of law.”
In his decision, Ward found that there was “no enforceable trust or property interest created by any version of the Presbyterian Church (USA) Book of Order or the Presbyterian Church of the United States Book of Church Order under the neutral principle factors set forth by the Texas Supreme Court in Masterson V. Diocese of NW Texas.”
“Judge Ward’s decision is firmly rooted in Texas law and the facts of this case,” said one of the church’s lawyers, Lloyd J. Lunceford, who is also a member of the board of directors of the Presbyterian Lay Committee. “The court rejected the presbytery’s argument that a valid trust arose under the express trust clauses that were added to the PCUS and PCUSA constitutions in the early 1980s, and the court rejected the presbytery’s novel, fallback argument that a trust or other property right arose under the denomination’s dissolving clause that dated to 1925. Needless to say, the leadership of FPC Houston is gratified and is looking forward to a bright future of Christian ministry without any distracting threat or confusion about the property rights of the local church. The local church’s legal representation was a team effort, involving my Baton Rouge firm, Taylor Porter, the Dallas-based firm of Craddock Davis & Krause, and the Houston-based firm of Susman & Godfrey. It was a privilege to be a part of that team and to help represent such a wonderful client.”
The decision stated that “all property … is held and owned by First Presbyterian Church in Houston … in full, complete, unfettered, fee simple and absolute ownership and title, all in accordance with the laws of the State of Texas.”
It also stated that the “trust and other property interests claims” made by the presbytery are “unenforceable and without legal force and effect.”
The judge’s decision included a permanent injunction that barred the presbytery, the Presbyterian Church (USA) and any people or entities related to it from doing anything that would interfere with or disturb First Presbyterian’s “ownership, use, control or disposition” of the property.
The background
On May 29, 2014, the church filed a civil lawsuit seeking to clear the title of the church property from claims by the denomination that it holds a trust interest in FPC’s property. In a letter to the congregation citing its reasons for filing the lawsuit, the clerk’s of session referred to the congregation’s recent experience in working through New Covenant Presbytery’s “Reconciliation and Dismissal Procedure” and its failed voted to leave the PCUSA.
Earlier in the year, on Feb. 23, the church held a congregational meeting to vote on leaving the PCUSA and joining ECO: A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians. The vote fell 36 votes short of attaining the required two-thirds majority.
Out of approximately 3,100 members, 1,681 attended the meeting, with 1,085 of them voting in favor of leaving the PCUSA. The congregation needed at least 1,121 votes in favor of the motion for it to pass.
While the church was working through the discernment process, the presbytery “made it clear that it believes that FPC owns its property for the benefit of the PCUSA. The FPC session believes it is necessary to resolve this issue once and for all – does PCUSA have any interest in FPC’s property?” according to a May 29 letter from the session to the congregation. “Clearing up property rights will honor the legacy of our past and provide stability for our future.”
The clerks of session – Jane Costello, Lesley Lilly and David McCarty – wrote that“It’s important to stress what this lawsuit is not.FPC is not seeking to leave the PCUSA through the filing of this legal action. Nor is this lawsuit seeking another vote on whether FPC should leave the PCUSA. All this action seeks is a determination from the court of whether FPC completely controls the use of its property.”
Related articles:
FPC-Houston files lawsuit seeking clear title to property
Texas Supreme Court rules in favor of neutral principles
76 Comments. Leave new
Good for 1st Pres, now ther’re free to pursue their mission without the greedy presbytery or the louisville sluggers breathing down their neck. The courts from the state supremes’ to this judge have settled the issue at least for now in Texas. God bless 1st Pres, Houston.
The reason why denominations with an episcopal understanding of property, ECUSA/PCUSA try to squeeze, extort, bully individual churches into settlements at the local, presbytery level is that in tort-constitutional law, the matter of freedom of association and assembly will always win over matters of ecclesiastical, church/state purview. Which the PCUSA will always try to argue. In the SCOTUS decision on “Citizens United” the precedence was made that money, assets are considered free speech, along with people. And again, constitutionally very hard to suppress.
Louisville knows this, hence the drive to settle these matter prior to winding their way through the courts.
Which is why the ECUSA has been warned of the dangers of taking the SC diocese decision issue beyond the Federal District level.
Drink it all in, PCUSA. You have had your reward in full.
“Dooh!” – Highland Park Presbyterian upon hearing this news
This headline is misleading… This was simply a summary judgement hearing. This is NOT the actual court decision. This is simply a decision that the church does have a right to HAVE a case and final judgement on the matter. This is not yet settled.
This reinforces my frequently stated opinion that Highland Presbyterian Church missed a golden opportunity to settle the issue (the enforcement of the trust clause) by means of a summary judgment. There was no disagreement over the facts. A jury was not needed to determine what was true and what was not true. All the parties had to do was ask the court to apply the undisputed facts to the law and hand down a decision. Unfortunately, a Dallas court never got that chance. (One can still hope, however feint, that Highland Park could back out of its agreement with Grace Presbytery. It’s worth thinking about.)
The naysayers will say “this is only one judge,” just as they always do, except in those cases where the judge supports them. But, in my opinion, this case will have high precedential value in Texas and will be highly influential nationwide.
Yes, I think it is a game changer. And, I encourage the Houston church to keep trying. The “reformists” never took “no” for an answer, as they tried, year after year, to change the definition of marriage. Turnaround is fair play. The Houston church should keep fighting until the members there achieve the two-thirds vote they need to join the ECO. I wish them well.
Zac, this actually is a verdict. The judge found that the case was so overwhelming in favor of First Church that the case need not even proceed to trial. In other words, he found that there was no way that the Presbytery could prevail on the merits. Hence, summary judgment.
Zac, a summary judgment is often final. You can never assume it will be appealed. The court obviously saw no genuine issue of material fact (that is, a disagreement concerning facts that were important) that would prevent him from issuing a decision. Time will tell.
The headline is correct. The grant of summary judgment was a final order of the district court. Like any final decision of a district court,though, it is subject to review on appeal, and the presbytery has filed a notice of appeal. All of this is part of the ordinary process of civil litgation.
As for any comparison of FPC’s summary judgment to the settlment of the Highland Park Presbyterian Church case, folks should not be too quick to draw conclusions or criticize HPPC. Although the Texas law was the same in both cases, under the neutral principles of law approach any outcome depends on the law as it is applied to the facts of a particular case– and the facts differed between Highland Park and FPC Houston in ways that were potentially significant.
There may end up a patchwork of decision in this area depending on state laws. The Georgia Supreme Court ruled in favor of the trust provisions of PCUSA in Timberridge vs Presbytery of Greater Atlanta and reversed the appellate court. Timberridge appealed to U. S. Supreme Ct. which denied certiorari.
Good for Texas! The PCUSA should be ashamed of what the did and said about Israel!!
Nancy, the PCUSA’s position on Israel was about the LEAST egregious thing they have ever done – at least in recent history!
Yes! Let’s hear it for the mutineers, the betrayers and deceivers! Let’s all cheer for the traitors, the Judas model that works to undermine and fragment the churches strength, unity and peace. What a crock of self interest called Godly all your behavior clearly remains. Remember when the split was over the ordination of women? Before that is was something else and something else and something else. All petty human matters and not of God.-RB
Wow you’re not bitter at all, are you? As far as peace and unity if you wanted that you would have already looked around the pcusa and seen the state of the denomination that frankly your side created that’s driving people away.
No peace, it’s the big tent theology featuring the three ring freak show with louisville as the ring leader, or no unity at all, it’s louisville’s way or the highway, just leave them the door keys and bank account numbers to pay for their financial peace (their jobs), and their unity…whatever that is.
We’ll see just how honest they’re being about that soon enough.
—–
The clerks of session – Jane Costello, Lesley Lilly and David McCarty – wrote that“It’s important to stress what this lawsuit is not.FPC is not seeking to leave the PCUSA through the filing of this legal action. Nor is this lawsuit seeking another vote on whether FPC should leave the PCUSA. All this action seeks is a determination from the court of whether FPC completely controls the use of its property.”
**In his decision, Ward found that there was “no enforceable trust or property interest created by any version of the Presbyterian Church (USA) Book of Order or the Presbyterian Church of the United States Book of Church Order under the neutral principle factors set forth by the Texas Supreme Court in Masterson V. Diocese of NW Texas.”**
Correct, and when the pcusa rejected the Holy Bible as the inerrant, infallible Word of God violating Holy Scripture, the pcusa ceased to be a church. To believe the pcusa has been evolving as a so called church giving in to the culture is insane, thus, leading millions of people down the road to perdition. God’s Holy Word is the standard to be received, believed and obeyed by everyone in and out of the church. God is Sovereign, Jesus is Lord.
Scott, oh Scott, it’s good to hear from you again, however, by the way, the presbytery did everything they could to manipulate 1st Pres from leaving during the dismissal process, frankly I hope their gone by Easter to the ECO.
Presbyterians have split time and time again over matters of polity and theology, if history shows anything, it is that there’s a reason we’re sometimes called the “Split P’s”.
However, in this case more churches are more concerned with the authority of Scripture, theology and the turn toward securlar culture within the denomination, than polity issues.
Yet, what is so wrong with letting a church move to a different denomination? What is Christian about calling fellow Christian’s “deceivers, mutineers, thieves” as if they were stealing what is not rightfully theirs? Many of these churches were founded and built their buildings long before any ‘trust’ clause was added to the Book of Order.
These church often paid their Per Capita to support the higher councils in full, some withheld the portion going to the headquarters because they did not wish to support what they saw as policies they could not support, yet Presbytery & Synod were still funded.
I truly wish to know why such vituperation towards those who have not done you harm?
So James H, you’re explicitly saying that you hope they are lying about leaving the PCUSA? That’s the moral standard your Perfect Lord & Savior calls for? And don’t try to get out of that by complaining about Louisville – Christians have faced much worse over the last 2000 yrs while still being expected to act morally themselves.
Scott “Christians have faced much worse over the last 2000 yrs while still being expected to act morally themselves.”
Scott when you are right, your are right, but the presbytery did all they could to stop them from leaving during the dismissal process, besides why do you care if they leave? What are you afraid that they would be takening “louisvilles” property, because nobody on your side cares if people leave in droves, as long as they leave door keys and the bank account numbers.
On Friday, February 27th, the Presbytery’s general council approved the pursuit of an appeal of the Court’s summary judgment. So there will be an appeal of the Court’s decision.
it looks like the presbytery is going to follow the episcopal churchs way on this, and in the end it’s the lawyers that make out like bandits.
Lloyd
Looks like the Presbytery will appeal. No surprise. Given the wide variance between states (such as SC & TX on one hand and CA & GA on the other), when would you guess SCOTUS agrees to hear a case and (hopefully) reach clarity on the issue of “Implied” Trusts. I suspect it is just as likely to come from the ECUSA’s appeal from SC as a PCUSA appeal from TX. Any indication of the leanings of the current members of the SCOTUS?
From the Presbytery’s brief opposing the motion for summary judgment:
“The inconvenient truth about this lawsuit is that it is an attempt by one faction of a church to use the civil justice system to effectively overturn a church-wide vote on an internal church matter. FPCH’s leadership promoted that vote largely because of its resistance to societal changes that now have become law in much of this country.”
Are we not supposed to avoid conforming to the world?
Captain Ahab keeps pursuing Moby Dick.
So the trust clause argument didn’t work, so now it’s this argument, it won’t go anywhere.
the inconvenient truth is that trying to steal property you did not so much as contribute one penny for the purchase, construction or upkeep is serious business to the Presbytery. What is a few hundred thousand $ of legal fees if you can steal millions?
The Presbytery has approved legal expenses up to $960,000 in the FPC case. Their annual operating revenue was budgeted just under $1.3 million in 2014. Obviously, the money for legal expenses is coming from somewhere other than operating.
James, you ducked the question. Are you explicitly hoping that FPC is telling a very public lie when they claim they aren’t planning to leave the PCUSA the minute the property issue is settled in their favor?
So if louisville decides they want to gamble on this case, and since the pcusa headquarters is in the home of the Kentucky Derby, maybe our stated clerk and our moderator can dress up together (pumps and pillbox hats) at the next Derby to commemorate the visit in 2007 of Her Majesty the Queen, and HRH the Duke Of Edinburgh, I’m sure if they bet and pray the book of order together, they will win the Triple Crown.
I haven’t ducked anything, the presbytery did what they did, and now 1st Pres is doing what they have to do, really why do you think 1st Pres followed the dismissal process to the tee, only to have the presbytery throw the trust clause in their face during the whole process, your duckng the entire issue.
This is all about intimidation, scare the hell out of anybody not following the louisville line, manipulate the process, what’s sad, is that it has come to this, and for that, I’m sorry you can’t see that Scott.
“I haven’t ducked anything, the presbytery did what they did, and now 1st Pres is doing what they have to do, really why do you think 1st Pres followed the dismissal process to the tee, only to have the presbytery throw the trust clause in their face during the whole process, your duckng the entire issue.”
The Presbytery didn’t give Grace Presbyterian any issues when they voted to leave. They’re ECO now. Are you claiming that poor little FPC is being uniquely persecuted by New Covenant in ways other large rich churches aren’t?
The Presbytery and FPC have differing positions on the trust clause. The Presbytery has held a consistent position the whole time, even if it one you disagree with. That’s not me ducking anything.
Scott, “The Presbytery has held a consistent position the whole time, even if it one you disagree with.”
Yes they have Scott, their position, what’s is yours mine, and what’s mine is mine, very consistent indeed.
and FPC has also held a very consistent position on the trust clause. That is what many in the minority at FPC fail to understand. FPC has never agreed to the trust clause and has been fighting it since Day 1 that Louisville tried to impose it by fiat.
FPC says it isn’t planning to leave. James H wants them to leave. James H therefore wants them to be lying. His excuse for the lie will be unspecified and unproven allegations of wrongdoing on the part of New Covenant, with no explanation as to why they didn’t treat Grace Presbyterian, which is equally large and wealthy, the same way.
James, given your belief that the church is justified in lying to get it’s way, what response would you have to someone who asks “how do I know you aren’t lying about Jesus too?”
Scott,
Your’re right, I’m wrong, the presbytery is the paragon of virtue, of all that is Holy and right, without sin amoung them, there is no greed to be found………….. NOT
James, New Covenant doesn’t have to be ‘perfect’ or even ‘good’ to have more integrity than FPC. That’s a pretty low bar.
Scott I pray you found a new church home because its obvious that your hate of FPC would make it impossible for you to worship there.
Mark, I’ve concluded no God that empowers the likes of the people who run FPC is a real God. I walked into FPC a man raised in the church. I walked out an agnostic. FPC doesn’t act like they believe anything they say about eternal accountability, and never acted in anything that looked like love. If they don’t believe their sales pitch, why should I?
Scott,
I’m sorry that you were offended at 1st Pres, Houston, did you talk to a Pastor or a member of the session about your concerns?
Yep. All FPC ‘leadership’ does is circle the wagons and give excuses for their behavior, when they aren’t giving people an attitude of “sit down, shut up, and obey”. They will never admit their dishonesty. Too much Earthly power and influence, and too much holy and sacred money at stake.
Scott, I am truly sorry for your experience at FPC. I am a member there and have not witnessed the attitude you are talking about from leadership. The Senior Pastor, to me, is a very humble leader. I am not saying that what you experienced did not happen, just that I have not seen the same thing. I hope you keep your eyes and ears open for when God presents you an opportunity to experience him.
I know all the pastors very well and they are all outstanding – easily the best overall group that has ever been at FPC in the 20+ years I’ve been a member. I also know many members of session who are all fantastic with strong faiths.
I have no idea what happened to Scott because he provides no details. Just a lot of name calling and blame. Maybe a specific example of when he was told to sit down and shut up would be helpful.
If you’re the Mark I’ve had discussions here with earlier, you know the details. The conversation was removed by the moderators because they don’t want it hashed out here. Fine, but it isn’t honest of FPC to insist on specifics in an environment where providing specifics isn’t allowed. The nice folks at the Layman have made it clear they don’t want us naming individuals.
Let’s just say I have court documents in PDF form on my phone, and can prove FPC lied to anyone anywhere at a moment’s notice. Whenever anyone in the local media starts writing about local churches, they get copies of these documents for when FPC says or does something that could make this info part of the back story. I’m going to hurt FPC with this info. I have the means; it is just a matter of never giving up and finding a good opportunity.
According to David (see below), the presbytery has budgeted $960,000 for the legal appeal. If that runs out, they will no doubt get more from Louisville. Because this is a fight they must win; if the trust clause falls in Texas, the denomination falls in Texas. The trust clause is all that is preventing outright schism.
Two points:
1. If the FPC Houston case continues, it may be years before it makes its way to the US Supreme Court, which will likely decline to hear the case.
2. It is an enormous scandal that PCUSA is paying these legal bills with money put in collection plates by Presbyterians who have no idea their offerings to God are being so obscenely misused in this way.
Scott I cannot imagine that the course of action you are contemplating will benefit you in any way. Revenge for perceived slights? deliberating *wanting* to hurt others? Really??
What does it say that people whose point of view is clearly carrying the day in the denomination continue to bitterly attack those who still hold to a different view?
You know, setting aside for the moment the divisions over doctrine and belief, it seems to me to be sufficient reason to want to leave the denomination, that they will engage in litigation with member churches over the churches’ property. The denomination didn’t build that church, and it has nothing invested in it. The church is using it as a church, and would continue to do so, even if it left the denomination. Could the presbytery fill that church and keep its doors open, if not for those pastors and that congregation? No. They’d rent it out or sell it. I trust the congregation has cut off its per capita payments. No use subsidizing this denomination as it fights with you in court. In fact, it seems reasonable to me for all churches of like mind to this one, whether able to muster the votes to leave the denomination or not, to cut off the per capita payments. And what requirement is there to identify yourself as being a member of PCUSA? If you want to leave, but can’t quite achieve it, why shouldn’t you change your name to that of some form of community church, with a tiny asterisk after it, identifying you as PCUSA, for the purpose of literal truthfulness, if not to advertise it?
“Fine, but it isn’t honest of FPC to insist on specifics in an environment where providing specifics isn’t allowed.”
I’m not FPC. I’m an individual.
“Let’s just say I have court documents in PDF form on my phone, and can prove FPC lied to anyone anywhere at a moment’s notice. Whenever anyone in the local media starts writing about local churches, they get copies of these documents for when FPC says or does something that could make this info part of the back story. I’m going to hurt FPC with this info. I have the means; it is just a matter of never giving up and finding a good opportunity.”
Scott please go back and read what you wrote. I’m 100% serious here – the hate you have will eat you up inside. Most people would say what you posted is the ranting of a mentally unbalanced person.
I know you somehow blame FPC for your lost faith, but I’m sorry your faith and what is inside you is 100% up to you. You have received the invitation – its your decision and yours alone to accept or reject….you can’t blame it on someone or something else.
I sincerely hope you seek some professional help to rid your heart of anger you have.
I have personally heard from a pastor friend that a couple who were life-long Presbyterians recently moved to her town, and didn’t even bother checking out the congregation she servers because it had a ‘flaming cross’ on its small church sign identifying it as PC(USA).
Sorry, false concern for my supposed well being won’t help you convince me to stop holding FPC accountable for their actions (in a perfectly legal way). I’ve heard “we only want you to shut up about what we did and start obeying a Good Christian Leader again because we luuuv you” before. Fine. I’m crazy. Churches will just have to keep in mind the people they deal with may be crazy when they take the attitude of “yea, you know I’m lying to you – what are you going to do about it? God gave me power and authority, not you. Shut up, submit, and obey”. If that means churches, *gasp*, are forced to treat the cattle in the seats with some respect instead of being the means toward leaderships’ egotistical ends, so be it.
RC: When we invested in a new sign, Session explicitly requested that the PCUSA logo be left off.
Interesting that you automatically assume that someone has “false concern” for your well-being. You do not know me or my motivations. But I feel I am learning a lot about yours. And it saddens me. I don’t know you, I won’t lose sleep over it, but yes, it does sadden me to witness such vengeful and obsessive behavior from anyone.
There will come a day when FPC’s witness is inhibited and shadowed by “isn’t that the church that covered up….?”
My goal is to keep people from FPC’s lord, thus keeping them from donating to FPC’s bank account, which is the only thing FPC cares about. If their lord, their morality, their principles were more important than their bank account, they’d leave said bank account w/ the PCUSA and just walk as individuals, free to start an ECO church or two anywhere in Houston they wish to.
Actually, a small faction of the church’s leadership instigated the litigation against the Presbytery–not the other way around. Specifically, only 23, unnamed families funded the contentious litigation after the “leadership” lost the vote to leave the denomination pursuant to the Gracious Reconciliation and Dismissal procedure.
Moreover, what about the $18 Million endowment of FPC? People left money to a PCUSA church–not some fringe, right-wing denomination.
Speaking of “stealing,” what about the $18 Million endowment that was left by generations of donors to a PCUSA church–not some fringe, right-wing church?
I am not sure the Supremes will decline this time since there is a split among the states, all of whom are relying on the Supreme Court Jones decision.
Anne, please stop posting that ECO is fringe, right-wing denomination. It is to theologically to the left of both PCA and EPC. Please do your research.
Also, I am pretty sure the mission statement of the FPC Foundation is to support FPC specifically, and not the PCUSA. So if people wanted there donation to help the denomination, they should have made their donation directly to the denomination.
Inasmuch as marriage equality will be the law of the land by the end of June, the entire raison d’etre of EPC will be out the window.
Actions speak louder than words. There are only 3 women ministers listed in the entire state of Texas and one of them is actually a missionary. That’s pretty right-wing and fringe to me!
I meant “ECO.”
I don’t understand what you are saying. Same sex marriage will be allowed in the PCUSA by the end of June. How does this affect ECO?
Anne, according to the law firm that represented FPC against the presbytery, they will continue to defend FPC in the appeal Pro Bono. So I am not sure where you are getting these 23 families that funded the litigation. According to the representing law firm, there was nothing to be funded.
http://www.susmangodfrey.com/News/News-Archive/Susman-Godfrey-Wins-Pro-Bono-Case-for-First-Presbyterian-Church-of-Houston/
The Supreme Court of the United States will presumably uphold marriage equality by the end of June. (Oral argument is on April 28th.) The reason ECO was formed was in an anti-gay knee jerk reaction. Civil gay marriage will most likely be the law of the land by the end of June. Whether such a marriage can occur within a PCUSA church will be local option only. Much of the campaign to move to ECO was an anti gay/anti same sex marriage battle. If it is the law of the land, the so-called argument becomes a red herring.
FPC has 4 sets of counsel. Count ’em. Tom Paterson is at Susman and has donated his time, but his role has been quite limited in the litigation from what I can tell.
I believe you said you are a member of FPC? The litigation slush fund established by 22 member families and one non-member was discussed at the last congregational meeting. Also, the Session refuses to alert the congregation if they are required to tap general funds for the litigation. The $750,000 these families had pledged thus far is woefully inadequate for an appeal.
If you think the only reason that ECO was founded was because of gay marriage, then you haven’t been paying attention. PCUSA continues to become more of a political organization than a religious organization. Obviously, you disagree with what FPC is doing. Are you a member there?
Well, according to the Presbytery minutes from last summer, they had already spent about $300,000 in legal fees and had approved spending up to $960,000. So their funding, according to your math is woefully inadequate as well. Both parties will probably have to come up with more money. FPC is probably more equipped to handle this long term than the Presbytery.
The Presbytery has a favorable flat fee arrangement with their counsel that includes all appeals, David. They are good for the long haul.
Anne,
I can’t speak to this particular church, but I can speak for ours. Our endowment isn’t that large, and has been given exclusively for the use of Missions work and for advancing the unique saving grace of Jesus Christ. Our local PCUSA presbytery has shifted over the past 20 years to become a political organization devoted to progressive causes, and has openly stated that Jesus is but one way to salvation, it is not our church that has changed. I knew most of the people who donated the money for the endowment. They would be horrified to think that their life savings were going to promote a social gospel, completely free of Jesus.
Let’s start with the basics, and see if we can get agreement.
1. God is all powerful, and created the universe, and all that is in it. 6 days or 6 trillion years we can debate, but He and He alone created it. And He created Man. From sand, through a controlled evolution, through some means we haven’t thought of yet….but He created Man, and created Man to be in His image, and to be sinless and have a relationship with Him.
2. He gave man free will, and man sinned, separating himself from God. As God is perfect, by logic and definition he can’t be in union with imperfection. Separation exists between God and man.
3. God sent Jesus, his Son and part of the trinity, to be fully man and fully God, and live a sinless life. He was crucified for our payment of sins. In his own words, he is the only way to salvation and unity with the God of the universe.
Can we all agree that believing these three simple, straightforward things are what make you a Christian and give you eternal life with the Father?
Then anything beyond that is how we interpret different things, how our world view colors things, and how we choose to worship. And we will all choose differently. Some like PCUSA. Some like ECO. Some like other denominations. We are all ‘brothers’ if we all believe the three items. Beyond that, let’s work together to expand the Kingdom, regardless of how you view homosexuality, creation, poverty, or foreign relations.
Anne, do you know where the Presbytery is getting their money for legal expenses? it is not coming out of their operating fund and according to the Presbytery treasurer, it is not coming out from any of the presbytery member churches contributions.
I do not know, David. I just know that they have all the funds they need and have already paid their counsel its flat fee. I am not aware of any outside funds though.
Sorry Anne – FPC has always been in your words “right wing”. Those earlier generations would be part of the current 2/3 majority in the church you cast as “right wing” and would be horrified to see what PC(USA) has become.
That’s what is so sad about the FPC situation – for some reason you and your ilk think the 2/3 majority has changed, when in fact its your group (and the national denomiation) that continues to slide into liberalism and worldliness, while abandoning the word of God.
Anne, are you an FPC member?
To Mark:”That’s what is so sad about the FPC situation – for some reason you and your ilk think the 2/3 majority has changed, when in fact its your group (and the national denomiation) that continues to slide into liberalism and worldliness, while abandoning the word of God.”
My ‘ilk” voted to remain with PCUSA 23 years ago rather than go to the uber right-wing EPC denomination in which women are second class citizens. The same people who were behind the move to EPC years ago are now behind the move to ECO. They are also the ones funding the litigation. They learned their lesson years ago, however, and know that they cannot overtly oppose women in leadership positions or the ministry. Still, leopards don’t change their spots, do they? Today we have NO women ministers at FPC when we had several decades ago. Indeed, we have one minister on staff who is openly against women in the ministry and leadership positions in the church. I will take a little bit of “worldly” over “backward” any day.
AMEN
We are all sinners and can all be forgiven, just like the prostitute at the well. But remember, Jesus charged that prostitute to leave her sinful lifestyle. To ordain a homosexual as a minister is contrary to Christ’s teachings. If he is to recognize his sin, seek forgiveness, and leave that life, that would be worth considering, but to stay in a church organization that ordains these unrepentant sinners is to accept sin into the body of Christ, and it will rot that part of His body, causing Him to reject that part. Consider this as an alternative:
Why I Want to (and did) Join the RPCUS