It really comes down to Biblical authority’
Posted Thursday, January 31, 2008
We all love this church and hate to see what is happening. It really comes down to Biblical authority, the lack of regard for it, and where that will lead.
Many of us have a long history in this church, or are on staff with an evangelical congregation and will only leave as a last resort. That is why I came up with my amendments to the Presbyterian Church (USA) constitution and why Beaver-Butler Presbytery came up with theirs.
Many are reluctant to leave, and this offers a solution by gathering the evangelical PCUSA churches into their own constitutionally created structures within the PCUSA. If we are to do this, we need to do this while we still have enough votes to do it. The deadline for overtures is in February. It is a time for sober thinking and much prayer.
John Almquist
A reply regarding article by James Berkley
Posted Thursday, January 31, 2008
Face-to-face, I have already said to Mr. Berkley that his utterances border on slander, if not libel.
Nevertheless, I have a dream that one day we followers of Jesus may wake up and realize that we are all on the same team with the same Captain! Then it may happen that we will stop throwing mud and accusing one another of unfaithfulness and truly begin to work together, going the same direction following the same Leader!
In the meantime, I’m going to spend more time watching the Sports Channel where there is much less violence and anger expressed than between brothers and sisters in the faith.
Jack Terry honorably retired, elected member , Advisory Committee on Social Witness Policy
A reply regarding the Western North Carolina Presbytery story
Posted Thursday, January 31, 2008
What a misleading title to this article. It is a shame that we have to have a legal line item in the first place, but not all the money approved is pointed to Montreat. As you pointed out, the Marion church has already filed a suit that we must respond to as a presbytery. Unfortunately, others may do the same.
As for Montreat EPC, it is the sincere hope of many of my colleagues in ministry that we can come to an understanding without legal actions. As it is, I believe that mediation must be sought before any “suing” will ever take place. Since the two committees cannot come to an agreement, maybe the two lawyers will be able to without having to go through a court battle. It’s too bad that we were forced to take the action (setting up a legal fund) that Montreat undertook last year … before they petitioned to join the EPC.
With all due respect to Dr. Williamson, we are already in a vortex. Things are being spun out of control and headlines like this do not help matters. The presbytery budget is not just a “mission” budget, but also includes administrative costs and, believe me, this is one administrative cost that none of us look forward to utilizing. I would hope that The Layman Online would not mislead with a headline, even though I do give you props for presenting both sides of the debate.
It is still my hope that both Montreat churches can work out a compromise on this issue and be a shining light for working together, something that the Montreat EPC church said they would seek to do at the April presbytery meeting last year. I do believe that all believers can live in peace and work together and then no legal defense funds will be needed. May that day come soon.
Edyth P. Pruitt Lenoir, N.C.
Schism appears quite inevitable
Posted Thursday, January 31, 2008
Regarding the article, “‘Fidelity/chastity’ ordination standard not an essential of Reformed faith and polity, commissioners decide,” I’m stupefied beyond words. Just when I thought the machinations of the so-called PCUSA leadership could not possibly be more patently disingenuous, I’m “faked out” again.
How dare they endeavor to intentionally take Scripture and church precedent out of context. And for what, cosmopolitan correctness? How dare they compare their “struggle for equality” to Blacks, Latinos and other minorities who sustained inequities that were neither the result of flaunting of personal choice or, for that matter, biochemical anomaly. Which motif of justification are they flagging this week anyway?
There is a huge difference between laying sin at the Cross and making sin into the shape of the Cross, and these neo-Guevarists are devilishly cunning and masterful in the art of prestidigitation.
Who would have thought Nikita Khrushchev had covert jihad in mind when he banged his shoe while yelling at President Eisenhower, “We will bury you!” Looks as if American political, commercial, diplomatic and militaristic superiority won the Cold War at the expense of the Biblically based, evangelical Calvinism through which and for which God foreordained us in the first place.
Are they not aware that God will not be mocked? What about the message this kind of circus would send to the young people? Have they not read Mark 9:42? Whoops! Sorry, I forgot … Scripture and confessional references? Not “politically correct.”
I recently read the current rate of the decline of the Presbyterian Church (USA) now stands at about 13 members per hour. At that clip, there will be 113,880 fewer PCUSA communicants next year this time – and, yet, they claim to champion inclusiveness? God help us.
Eric Wells Boardman, Ohio
A reply regarding the Twin Cities action: Duh … really?
Posted Wednesday, January 30, 2008
A few thoughts regarding some of the letters [Letters, January 29, 2008] reacting to the apostasy of Twin Cities:
Eric Wells: I would say some congregations rather than many, Eric. Why, you might ask? Because the overwhelming majority of leaders in this denomination – especially corporate apologist clergy – are intentionally keeping this information from their congregations. They will not “rock the boat” and risk offending their pension-plan managers. It is much safer to keep the member in the pew ignorant of the failures of leadership. The tortured and twisted rationale of the Twin Cities committee on ministry is beyond the pale and entirely outside of traditional Reformed faith and practice.
David Lenz: God bless you for trying. However, any of us who were awake and paying attention during the Re-Imaging fiasco are unsurprised by this behavior. After all, the Twin Cities is the ideological Mecca of those heretics. More to the point, David, is that you now must gather like-minded faithful leaders who understand the marks of the true church to act. File a remedial action against the presbytery immediately. Please do not allow this to stand.
Ken Tazelaar: What can be done, Ken? Initiate a remedial case. A remedial case is initiated by the filing of a complaint with the stated clerk of the governing body having jurisdiction. A complaint is a written statement alleging an irregularity in a particular decision or action, or alleging a delinquency.
E.E. Jones: I, too, wonder about the alleged evangelical members of the Theological Task Force on Peace, Unity and Purity. In fact, I have publicly challenged several of them to comment on this obvious disconnect with the assurances we were all given in the headlong rush to change, by fiat, the polity of the church. None of them has had the temerity to so comment. Now, I wonder if that is because what is going on now was their intent in the first place. I suppose another possible explanation for their silence is simple shame.
Bill Crawford: As always Bill, I appreciate your faithful witness while I disagree with your position viz. remaining and going. However, in this case I would defer to Bob Kopp’s Animal House analogy (Face it Flounder …).
The disconnect between the membership of this denomination and its elected leadership is staggering. More problematic is the reality that a majority of particular churches are de facto Congregationalists and/or led by pastors without the courage to confront and name the sin before us. The next step will be the San Francisco approval of Lisa Larges. And again, many of us will be left with all of the same questions.
Here is a new question I haven’t heard asked. If, in fact, Dr. Capetz is already engaged in a teaching ministry under the auspices of the United Church of Christ, then why doesn’t he just take his ideological issues there where they are welcomed and celebrated, and leave the Presbyterian Church (USA) alone? Just wondering.
Rev. Jim Yearsley Tampa, Fla.
A reply regarding the Presbytery of Western North Carolina
Posted Wednesday, January 30, 2008
It is very interesting that the “Legal Fundraising” line item is over twice as much as the “new church development” line item and only slightly smaller that the entire “Division of Evangelism …” grouped budget.
Granted, this legal fund is less that a tenth of the largest grouped item, but that item is staff. Be happy that the presbytery is spending more on physical needs (supplies and equipment) than the legal fund by $6,000, however the real physical needs (“Hunger Committee” equals $1,450).
I know that staff and people cost money and that the Hunger Committee is not necessarily monies for food, but when you look at the budget as a whole it is amazing how little is spent on ministry and the cause of Christ vs. physical human wants and protection of the presbytery’s (isn’t it God’s?) property.
Bruce Ludwick
An appeal to my presbytery, the Presbytery of the Twin Cities Area
Posted Wednesday, January 30, 2008
On Saturday, Professor Paul Capetz asserted that affirming “chastity in singleness” (Book of Order G-6.0106b) was tantamount to taking a vow of celibacy. This assertion at its heart calls into question the words of the Angel Gabriel, “with God nothing will be impossible” (Luke 1:37, RSV). As Jesus reiterated, “with men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).
And yet, in restoring Professor Capetz as a minister member in the Presbytery of the Twin Cities Area, we say to the church and the world that there is at least one thing that is impossible with God; namely, redemption for men who desire men and women who desire women (see Romans 1:26-27).
That “homosexual orientation” is unchangeable goes largely unquestioned in Western society today, but God mercifully calls into question all our impossibilities. Romans 1 tells us that our Savior Jesus, “the just who shall live by faith,” lives in order to save us from our enemies (Romans 1:17). As King David saved the ancient Israelites from the Philistines, themselves sent as a manifestation of God’s wrath (see Judges 2:14, Romans 1:18), so the clear implication of Romans is that the King of Kings, Jesus, saves us from enemies far more terrible than the Philistines – enemies not of flesh and blood, but the powers and principalities of this world.
God’s mercy does and must abound in His Son Jesus. Romans chapter 1 shows us the glory of just Jesus against the black background of universal sin (all we like sheep had gone astray). But the just Jesus is also the justifying Jesus. Romans 1 begins with the resurrection of the dead, and this is no accident. The resurrection of the dead is inseparable from restoration of right relationship between men and women (R. 1:4,17ff).
Remember the woman of the city who was “forgiven much” and therefore “loved much” bathing Jesus’ feet with her tears, anointing Him with precious oil (Luke 7:37-50). Somewhere she had heard the word of forgiveness, and in the Gospel stories we see a woman redeemed, transformed. Jesus said of such a one, “wherever the gospel is preached this will be told in memory of her” (Mark 14:9).
Simon the Pharisee called this woman a sinner as her tears fell on Jesus’ feet. One could well guess that, in Simon’s view, it was impossible that this woman be anything but what she was known to be, one whose body and soul were corrupt. But what is inconceivable and well-nigh impossible with men is more than conceivable and do-able by the Word of God. As Luther said, “the word, the word, the word will do it.” God the Father delights, “sings with joy” over what He has done and is doing in Jesus (Zephaniah 3:17).
But not only that, it is “these sinners” who go first into the Kingdom and, in so doing, provide a shining hope for us all. When these are saved, those to whom salvation was accounted by church and society an “impossibility,” then hope springs up in our own hearts. Perhaps we in the pews and pulpits and choir lofts also can be saved from our innumerable miseries, weaknesses, sins and burdens that have grown too heavy for us to bear.
Our heart rejoices in Jesus, the Anointed One, anointed both by God and by the sinner who “once was lost but now is found.” Who can doubt that that unnamed woman is now crowned in light at the throne of the Lord of hosts?
Beloved brothers and sisters of the Presbytery of the Twin Cities Area, I appeal to you by the mercies of God. Let us not be conformed to this age, but transformed by the renewing of our minds.
Rev. Amy Flack minister member , Presbytery of the Twin Cities Area , Ellsworth and Hager City, Wisc.
Why not file complaints about other issues?
Posted Tuesday, January 29, 2008
If Westminster Presbyterian Church and others like it would file complaints to the synod concerning the ordination of homosexuals and preachers performing gay marriages, which are also violations of the Presbyterian Church (USA) constitution, maybe churches like Roseville and Fair Oaks would not feel compelled to leave.
If the constitution is not being enforced concerning ordination standards, why should it be enforced with respect to property? All of these cases seem to be about money and somewhere in the process the will of God gets lost. If a church discerns that the will of God is for them to depart the PCUSA and join another church, then that shouldn’t be questioned. Forcing churches to stay in the PCUSA is not the way to promote “peace, unity and purity,” especially unity. The ultimate goal for all of us ought to be to do whatever we need to do to further the Kingdom of our Lord. If that means doing it in another denomination, so be it.
The only people benefiting from all of the court battles are the lawyers. If the PCUSA is really interested in furthering the Kingdom of God, they ought to let churches go in peace and pray for them and their ministries.
Tim Rodgers Vicksburg, Miss.
Blasphemy!
Posted Tuesday, January 29, 2008
Brothers and Sisters in Christ, will the blasphemy never end? This ongoing desecration of God’s Word must stop! What can be done?
Ken Tazelaar Waukegan, Ill.
Article on the Presbytery of the Twin Cities Area is ‘to the point’
Posted Tuesday, January 29, 2008
Your article is concise and to the point. I am the commissioner who made the comment about consequences. As you note, the discussion mostly played out on the previous motion. I, along with others, worked hard to rally an evangelical response to the request for restoration. We had nearly every evangelical commissioner there that we could. The vote totals show the composition of this presbytery.
David Lenz pastor, Hope Presbyterian Church , Richfield, Minn.
Action on Capetz will accelerate ‘the decline of the PCUSA
Posted Tuesday, January 29, 2008
Regarding the story: “‘Fidelity/chastity’ ordination standard not an essential of Reformed faith and polity, commissioners decide:” The only purpose served by his reinstatement will prove to be the acceleration of the decline of the Presbyterian Church (USA). Mark my words, within a few short weeks, congregations that may have entertained the idea of leaving will be pushed right over the edge.
Eric Wells
Growing awareness
Posted Tuesday, January 29, 2008
For those who are just now realizing that the PUP report is all about allowing critical and intentional ambiguity into our faith and practice, I have a few words: Take a deep breath, sit down, pray and then give up the old game.
Everything has changed. It started 80 years ago and has never stopped. We have been outflanked at every step. It is time to embrace a new thing.
Bill Crawford pastor , First Presbyterian Church of Thibodaux , Thibodaux, La.
A response regarding Larges and Capetz
Posted Tuesday, January 29, 2008
The back-to-back logical sequences of constitutional defiance enabled by PUP have generated an avalanche of outrage, ecclesiastical depression and the like which I have rarely experienced. The frozen chosen seem to be thawing a bit under the heat of …
Regardless, I am hearing from across the country and even the world – pastors and elders and members and non-members and non-PCUSAers and others – that the worst fears of PUP are being realized. I’m even hearing a lot of concern about our “emerging” denomination increasing the assault on the unique saving Lordship of Jesus as attested in Holy Scripture and upheld by our constitution. Even if this particular concern is not yours (viz., Capetz and Larges), the fear is that anything related to Biblical Christianity will now be subject to the dark enabling of PUP.
God have mercy on the Presbyterian Church (USA) and those of us who remain to be faithful.
Robert R. Kopp
Nothing has changed’
Posted Tuesday, January 29, 2008
I wonder what the members of the PUP task force who went around the country telling scores of Presbyterians that “Nothing has Changed” with the passage of its recommendations will say now.
Two individuals from two different presbyteries have been cleared for ordination. Many execs and presbytery staffs did the same thing. Many of us warned about the “Crack in the Door” and were ridiculed. No organization can exist without trust.
Many in the Presbyterian Church (USA) have no regard for anything but their own agendas and, with that attitude, they will bring about the demise of this branch of the Church.
E.E. Jones
Only other option for the PCUSA is ‘total schism’
Posted Monday, January 28, 2008
With respect for the Rev. Greg Wiest [Letters, January 23, 2008], the only faithful and honest other option total schism. The liberal and conserving camp must separate.
Schism would say to the world “in this camp, we believe that the prophets, apostles and Christ Himself spoke the truth.” While, in the other camp, they could say “we know better, with our great modern understanding, than did the prophets, apostles and Christ Himself.”
Both camps should be honest enough to say what they believe and take care that the world be not deceived or confused. It could be done graciously and legally, but it must be done. It is time for separation so that evangelicals can get on with the work of preaching the wonderful, soul-saving, life-changing Gospel of Jesus Christ while the liberals wade deeper into the humanist morass with Universalists and others who deny the Savior of this world.
The need is critical. According to the National Center for Health Statistics, in the U.S. 2.5 million people died in 2005, going to where the Lordship of Jesus Christ will no longer be a matter of opinion, but eternal fact! In the same year, there were 4.2 million births – precious little humans needing to be taught the abundant life available in Jesus Christ.
Our message must not be confused by association with those who believe the Gospel message is a lie, a fable!
James H. Logan Sr. Rock Hill, S.C.