Ron Scates accused of violating ordination vows

As I understand it, Highland Park’s lawyers said they believed they would prevail against Grace Presbytery, but — given the unpredictability of judges and the judicial process — they couldn’t guarantee it. Highland Park’s leaders were unwilling to take that gamble and possibly lose their historic and extremely valuable real property. So they caved and paid Grace the enormous exit fee. I wonder: How much do the people of First Church San Antonio love their real estate? Enough to eventually cave, as Highland Park did — and in the process leave the trust clause to survive in Texas so it can continue to be used by presbyteries to sieze property and extort money from congregations that are trying to remain faithful to the Word?

There is no reason for FPC San Antonio to cave. They are currently not seeking to leave PCUSA, so that is not a bargaining chip for the Presbytery. They are seeking for the State to determine who owns the property just as First Presbyterian in Houston has done. FPC Houston has won their case, they are just waiting on the courts to rule on the Presbytery’s appeal to the ruling.

Thanks for the clarification David..

Looks like someone is about to get “rightmyred”

As a pastor in Texas, I can tell you that, although the various cases might seem identical, “the devil is in the details.” Often that devil is in the details of the way property was obtained or other facets–don’t know the legal terminology here–of the actual title deeds.
A small congregation in Mission Presbytery (New Hope, near San Saba) was released without any kind of payment or litigation by M-P because there is no money to speak of and there is a “reverter clause” in the title deed that sends the property back to the family that donated the land in the first place should the land cease to be used for a church. In the only slightly paraphrased words of the person reporting to presbytery, “There is nothing there for us to go after.”

I hope that the Rev. Dr. Scates will wear these charges as a badge of honor. He is a fine pastor and a faithful, honorable man.

I am retained counsel for FPC San Antonio, I was also retained counsel for Highland Park. Readers should know that along with myself and Kent Krause of Dallas, David B. West of the San Antonio office of Dykema Cox Smith is also retained counsel for FPC San Antonio. Readers should also know that Mr. Krause did NOT represent Rev. Rightmyer in the PCUSA’s internal defrocking procedure. Rather, Rev. Rightmyer chose to proceed without benefit of counsel. The “case” against Rev. Scates is postured very differently. No easy comparisons can be made. Rev. SCates’ counsel are very optimistic. Finally, it is a myth that Highland Park “caved.” Its settlement represented about 11% of total asset value, accurately calculated. Concluding whether or not that figure represented a prudent settlement requires a knowledge of certain facts that were presented between the parties during pre-trial discovery but which would not have been made part of the public court record unless the matter went to a hearing on summary judgment–which did not occur. Therefore, respectfully, those who throw stones at Highland Park and accuse it of “caving”do not have all of the facts needed to have an informed opinion.

I cannot imagine that a judicial action caused by pure vindictiveness, as seems clearly the case here, as it was for Rev. Joe Rightmyer, can possibly reflect the mind of Christ.

Thank You for the clarification on both situations. I truly hope that mission presbytery is held to account for this action, at this point it seems really stupid, petty and vindictive of them, but we have seen this before.

I’m so tired heretics roaming free in the pcusa, while Godly men and women are treated this way because they failed to ‘further the peace, unity, and purity of the church…what a joke, it’s about time for the gloves to come off!!!

I’ve been put in my place by Mr. Lunceford, and I’m duly chastened. But it won’t stop me from giving another opinion: until a Texas church takes the legal fight all the way, the trust clause will be used by PCUSA to keep faithful congregations in this state chained to an apostate denomination, unless they are willing to pay exit ransoms. I’m sorry HPPC wasn’t able to be that church, for the undisclosed reasons known to Mr. Lunceford. I’m still hopeful that another church might step forward.

My brother Don, I did not intend to put you in your place orin any way publicly embarrass. I actually appreciate your zeal and that you are engaged with the issues. I wish there were more folks like you! You and other readers may be heartened to know that the Texas Supreme Court has already held in the Masterson case that a denomination’s trust clause does not of its own create a legally binding trust. It happened to be an Episcopal denomination involved in the Masterson case, but the nature of the denomination was irrelevant in the an analysis.A Texas appellate court has since held in the Windwood case that Masterson also applies to the PCUSA.The Windwood church was then dismissed by the presbytery — for zero payment. FPC Houston, which has exceedingly strong facts, has since refused to settle for any amount and has obtained summary judgment from the district court. (The presbytery has filed a notice of appeal.)

In response to Mr. Lunceford, Esq.

Those who are not willing to stand on the Word always use the excuse that there are “mitigating circumstances” and “you do not know the whole story”. “When will you stop standing first on one foot and the the other?” “I will spit you out of my mouth because you are lukewarm”. The elderly priest Mattathias slew the apostate priests and preserved Judaism as the cradle for the Saviour to enter the world. MartinLuther did not say ” HIer stehe Ich, unless it is too risky”

Highland Park and Mr. Lunceford have betrayed every small church in Texas and condemned those congregations to either capitulation to apostasy or slow death. But at least they made the “intelligent worldly decision”. Highland Park was blessed by God with resources to make a difference and they chose to hoard them.

This post will be castigated and scorned by the compromisers. They are heirs to Desiderious Erasmus. The church needs heirs of the great reformers, not of the milk toast compromisers. The criticisms will fall back to the same tired arguments of “you do not have all the information”

Totally predictable. But truth is truth and capitulation to the purveyors of apostasy, no matter how well disguised as rational and practical is just plain wrong!

Thanks. I’ll be praying for FPC Houston.

Ok, longtime observer, I’ll probably regret this but the Esq. is right.
A member of HPPC pastorial staff (of whom will go un-named)unless someone at the layman wants to know can contact me and can verify privately with this person, married my wife and I, married her sister and her brother in law, and buried their mother, my late mother in law. With that said they could not be happier now that they are out, out to God’s work at his leading without a bunch of heretics breathing down their necks.
The Esq. laid out the facts of the Masterson case, HPPC made a smart decision to settle out than fight a long legal battle, not everything is going to be cookie cutter.
Texas pcusa churches are in better shape to leave now than just a couple of years ago, thanks to like of HPPC, Windwood etc, so before you going throwing bombs at these people, just understand that they help pave the way for these court decisions, and trust me, they did NOT do it for the money!

James,

I would first testify that I neither wrote the reply signed “James H.” Nor participated in any way. It is such perfect validation of my arguments that to have done it myself would have been suspicious. I could not have fabricated a reply so supportive of my premises.

As predicted, your reply is based upon the fundamental argument “you do not know all the information”. And the prejoritive “throwing bombs”. No bombs have been thrown….only scripture…..and history.
“My sister was married to the sister of the pope and I have insider information that trumps the Word”. Actually I got lost in the convoluted familial relationships that supposedly validate the “you don’t have all the information” argument. Was Lucretia Borgia somehow involved. I make that comment to point out the historical parallels with the ignoring of scripture in favor of the “you don’t have all the information arguments”.

“Mr Esq. laid out the facts in the Masterson case.” OK, he also said in the HPPC case essentially ” you don’t have all the information”. It is secret, known only by the Vatican (note no quotes this is a synopsis).

“HPPC made a smart decision”.

We are commanded to be “fools for Christ”.

Thank you for validating my comments with the perfectf Erasmian reply
And Mr. Lunceford virtually simultaneously validates with conciliatory rhetoric. Everything is really OK. We won partial victory.f. We will eliminate indulgences but the Church still is the final authority on salvation….don’t read the Bible.

I have served as an elder in small Texas PCUSA churches. The proof of what I am saying will play out in the fairly near future as these churches (want an example, try First Pres, Brownfield) fade away. If the churches with resources like Highland Park and the Mr. Luncefords of the PCUSA would step up to their responsibilities and stop being so self centered, that withering of the witness to the reformation in small (and medium) sized towns could be strenghtened.

No need to go looking for dirt or misplaced bitterness, I never lived in Brownfield and was only in the church once . Just a good example.

I expect my post to be of no impact. After all, I don’t have “all the information”.

But I do have the Bible….the Truth.

WAKE UP SLEEPERS

Hey Lloyd, who is the anonymous outsider paying FPC’s legal expenses? It must be pretty embarrassing if FPC is keeping quiet.

Wouldn’t you imagine Scott….that it is the DONOR, not the church who want it to be anonymous?….embarassment is not applicable here in any way, I would imagine.

My former presbytery was preparing the same action against me, so I simply renounced. “Riches I heed not, nor man’s empty praise.” Best career decision I have ever made.

Maybe I’m just dense. How does the action of the presbytery further “peace and unity” let alone “purity”? Seems to further the notion WE’VE GOT THE POWER and we’re going to use it against ANY deviants from the holy PCUSA doctrine.

What is the donor hiding?

Sad to see that three men whom I trust, know the LORD deeply and have impacted me in such positive ways experience the denominations angry attempts to keep itself together. This really just makes ithe PCUSA less and less relevant and sends the wrong message to the world. It clearly cares more about its kingdom than Gods.

Tipping my hat to Joe, Roger and Ron

Are you really serious, Scott??!! thousands of people give the causes every day on this earth anonymously…..just because they want to and that is their right. Really weird outlook for you.

CT, this anonymous donor, or at least one of them, isn’t even a church member. Doesn’t the membership of the church have a right to know who this is?

So let me be clear about this. Scates remained in the PCUSA, took a PCUSA interim job, then tried to help ‘lead’ that church out of the PCUSA?

Nope, Scott. No one has a “right” to know the identity of an anonymous donor except the donor’s advisors who help with the logistics of the gift, not even the officers of the beneficiary organization. That’s why it’s called “anonymous.” Even with the advisors it isn’t so much a right as a necessity.

I have been told Highland Park turned out to have a really bad fact in an old communication with their Presbytery that made trial more risky for them than it would otherwise have been. They probably did the most prudent thing. I wouldn’t call it caving at all.

What’s wrong with that? If the session of the church desires that, he needs to follow the direction of the session.

First Presbyterian Church has made no attempt to leave the denomination; they have requested a judgment to determine ownership of their property. Actions like the one taken by Presbytery will certainly give many within that congregation a strong desire to leave the denomination.

I respect your integrity, Bob.

Actually, I agree with Scott. The congregation should know who these “23 families” are who are literally trying to buy the church. This is a small group with a controversial agenda within the church. They are not entitled to anonymity the way a legitimate gift to a reserve fund would be.

The main reason I think they want to be anonymous, is in case the presbytery tries to pull their crap, listen FPC Houston is eventually going to leave, and Scott and other people who don’t like that need to get over it.

Really James? People fear the PCUSA so much that they have to be anonymous for their own protection?

What Scates is doing is unethical. If he believes people should leave the PCUSA, then he should leave and stop taking interim jobs there.

James, FPC leadership is on record as saying they’re not intending to leave. Are you calling them liars?

Well they are not going through this for fun, and besides what do you care you don’t there anymore, and if the congregation tells the session they want out, then they will have to go that way, it was the pastors and session that said they would honor the vote, not the congregation itself. Besides the presbytery had people come to that vote that had not darkened the door or given a cent in years, thats manipulation.

Scott, at some point you have got understand that not everyone wants a rainbow flag flying in front of their church, but since you seem to be feeling so evangelical, why not reach out to B/C Jenner and see if he/she reaches back.

The fact is FP San Antonio has been the largest contributor to Mission Presbytery and MP will fight for those dollars. In the past it was upwards of 1 million dollars as i remember. Even in better times i remember MP employees telling me privately how they hated FPCSA, the biiterness was scary, but publically they were charming towards the staff. They hated the church, but oh they loved the money.

Ron is a good guy, I wish him the bes.t

The “rainbow flag” is irrelevant. If Scates believes God is calling people to leave the PCUSA, he should leave and not take PCUSA interim jobs. Period.

“it was the pastors and session that said they would honor the vote, not the congregation ”

Shorter James H: “My supposedly omnipotent God needs the money more than he needs the personal integrity of his witnesses, hence our willingness to lie about leaving the PCUSA when money and property is involved”.

James H knows the FPC session is lying just as much as I do. What he wrote is just an excuse for when the lie is proven. Everyone here knows the FPC leadership lies – the only differences among us are how we react to that.

James, Grace Presbyterian, an equally big and rich church, left New Covenant w/ no fuss. If the PCUSA is the evil entity you need them to be to justify your behavior, why did that happen?

Who is paying your bills, Lloyd?

Anne, I think everyone should tell me whatever I want to know too. But that’s just not how anonymous giving works. In a truly anonymous gift, *no one* at the beneficiary organization knows who the donor is. They interact with a third party who protects the donor’s identity. It’s perfectly legitimate and happens all day long every day.

Scott: FPC San Antonio has done nothing to try to leave the denomination. All actions taken have been at the direction of the Session. I suspect if it weren’t for a restraining order the Presbytery would probably have tried to unseat the Session.

What I want to know is what is driving the hate of Scott in all this?

Hey, Scott, buddy, does MP have a policy/process for leaving? If so, then why so bitter about a church following the process/policy to leave? It’s like if you put a glass of water in the fridge, tell me I can drink said water, and then get pissed when I reach for it. That don’t make no sense.

“Hey, Scott, buddy, does MP have a policy/process for leaving? If so, then why so bitter about a church following the process/policy to leave?”

The policy required a 2/3 vote. FPC’s vote fell short. If they leave they aren’t following the process they promised to follow.

The interesting thing is FPC said its anonymous donors would pay all the bills. They’re now half a million dollars short of what they need and are going to the general funds for the balance despite their earlier promises. You’ll claim the situation changed. I suspect that was their plan all along – to start the war then use being at war to get $$ from the congregation.

Scott, Scates has nothing to do with it, this is about the congregation, much like the HPPC and FPC Houston saying we want out and they are laying the foundation, this also because the people of the likes of you (the pcusa) that feel entitled to other people donations, your side has made the bed, you all can lie it, just without their money.
And speaking of Scate’s getting another job, most of the people in louisville and the presbyteries would not last 10 seconds in the private sector, it’s Pastors’ like Scates who do the dirty work for God.
This is all about money and power, between those who actually paid for everything, and those who did not.

I agree, the fact that they are going after Scates in light of the Judge’s order shows the desperation. They know their goose is cooked.

James H is arguing that FPC leadership is promising not to leave while the congregation is making plans to leave, and this is honest because the leadership and congregation are two somehow unrelated entities.

As for FPC Houston, Pastor Birchfield and the Head Clerk of Session signed the Gracious Reconciliation and Dismissal agreement on behalf of the congregation. When the vote was “lost,” the congregation was required to seek “the restoration of fellowship” with PCUSA. Turning around and suing the Presbytery because you didn’t like how the Holy Spirit spoke, violates the GRD.

Scott is correct. According to the May Session packet online, the litigation fund is $535K in the red.

In answer to the trivia question, are there still heresy trials in the PCUSA? Yes, but they are not based on matters of polity, confession or theology, but are ideological and economic in character. As the above example witness. In the PCUSA you can pretty much confess, believe, act, behave, do a you please. Do not pass go without a financial deposit or a rendering unto Caesar crossed the PCUSA line of good order and discipline.

I with the good pastor Scates well, but his cardinal Sin in the PCUSA was ever trusting the organization to begin with, or posit that they would act in good faith.

Anne, don’t give me the vilolating the GRD crap the presbytery manipulated the process behind the scenes by digging up people who had not darkened the door for years, let alone had given a cent. The bottom line if the congregation says we out, either the session and the pastor go along with it or their out.
As soon as the appeal is lost by the presbytery, you can bet that you’re going to see a mass exodus in Texas, and I say good, people are tired of the progressives letting hertics roam free while the faithful presbyterian Christians are harrassed for their faith and their property.
It’s time for the gloves to come off on the faithful side because the progressive have already taken theirs off!

Shorter James H: the ends justify the means.

Hey Scott: Not sure where you’re getting your information but it’s incorrect. There has never been a vote at FPC San Antonio. Checking your facts before opening your mouth (or typing on your keyboard) would help to make you look more intelligent.

Anne says:
Actually, I agree with Scott. The congregation should know who these “23 families” are who are literally trying to buy the church. This is a small group with a controversial agenda within the church.

Probably the same 23 families who have been footing the majority of the tithing bill at FPC for years. The agenda is only controversial to a few like you. The vast majority of the church is fully in favor of this.

Scott has professed on this website before to be an atheist who claims his prior experience at FPC turned him away from Christ. He is not a member of FPC but spends a lot of his time and energy obsessing over FPC.

Sorry, but after checking a very old discussion on this website I’ll change my response above. Scott has said he’s agnostic not atheist. Sorry for that characterization.

Anne Says,
When the vote was “lost,” the congregation was required to seek “the restoration of fellowship” with PCUSA.
It’s hard to do that when they are sneaking around the back door.

Scott: First Presbyterian Leaders are the Ruling Elders of the Session who are elected by the congregation. Teaching Elders cannot decide to leave the denomination. I know they keep changing the Book of Order, but the tyrants haven’t changed this……yet. Does someone need to send you a Book of Order?

Anne says:
“Head Clerk of Session”

Really Anne? Are you even a Presbyterian? Where did you get this office “Head Clerk of Session?” If you don’t know better than to use that kind of made up vocabulary, why are you even involved in this discussion?

I meant FPC Houston, not San Antonio.

Anne says “When the vote was “lost,” the congregation was required to seek “the restoration of fellowship” with PCUSA.” It’s a lot easier to accept a “lost” vote when it’s a fair vote. Requiring a super-majority of 2/3 (or MORE in other Presbyteries) is not a fair vote. How would you like it Anne, if your vote was only worth 1/3 of what a person with a differing viewpoints counted? “Gracious Separation” is a misnomer.

FPCSA took an unofficial survey and didn’t have the numbers. That’s why they hired Ron and are taking this action. The elders can’t stand PCUSA and are trying to lead a smear campaign against the presbytery.

Dear Longtime observer,
I am writing as someone outside the denomination you participate in (by choice). I, by choice, do not serve within a PC(USA) congregation, though I was a long time member in the past.
You clearly share your hurt by the departure of HPPC and now FPCSA and FPCH. What confuses me is whether you are upset that they departed, or whether you are upset because they departed and your congregation is now left to stand on their own (or whither and die as you state above). Or maybe it is both.
Is your anger toward the fact that the money is gone, or that brothers and sisters in Christ don’t occupy PC(USA) pews?
Scripture is clear in its absence of denominations for a reason. They are man-made. Man-made entities rise and fall, but God’s Church is not overcome. I continue to see PC(USA) proponents intermingling their words, using the word denomination and church as one in the same. But they are drastically different. These Brothers and Sisters in Christ are still part of the family, they just participate in the kingdom under another man-made institution in which they feel they can serve God more effectively.
I would ask you to clarify where in Scripture you see a man-made denomination discussed to such a length that you should hurl insults and venom at Brothers and Sisters in Christ under the guise of “Truth”.
I do not choose to serve the Baptist Church in town, but they are not the enemy. They are brothers and sisters in Christ, and under the headship of Christ. They will reach a group of people my reformed denomination will not reach. Praise God for that! And, though part of different denominations and theological positions, together we use resources to further the kingdom of God, working together as one in Christ. I could not minister effectively under their polity, and they could not minister effectively under mine. That does not hinder us from being co-laborers for Christ. Please check your motives before hurling insults at those who seek to serve God as part of the Church, just under a different polity and denomination.