Comparative decline in membership in the PCUSA
Posted Friday, May 28, 2004
At a recent book study meeting with fellow Presbyterian pastors in my area, I expressed concern at the high rate of decline in membership of the PCUSA, particularly as compared to other mainline denominations.
The response of the other pastors was “Oh, the rate is not greater than others, and even if it seems that way, it’s only because we keep our roles cleaner.” Generally, I get the attitude, “Oh, you can’t rely on what The Layman tells you,” which, in fact, I do.
I know I’ve seen reports from time to time, not only in The Layman. Can you provide some current info and indicate what the sources are please?
Rev. Les Winters
There’s a weakness in Caldwell Memorial
Posted Friday, May 28, 2004
Caldwell Memorial Presbyterian Church has let the fox in the hen house and now the fox wants, and does, control policy.
Would any of us give in to someone coming into our homes and dictating how we should live in our homes? Common sense says, “No.” Except in Caldwell’s case, Caldwell says, “Yes.”
If our cross and stained glass windows offend you, we will cover up the same, since we need the money. We want to be politically correct; we are to be modern; maybe you will become Christian.
How sad, shameful to give in to those who seek to destroy us. No matter how you reason it, Islam is here to take us over, and I rest my case with Caldwell.
Louis S. Nowasielski Pittsburgh, Pa.
Church ought to reach out to Muslims with good news of Jesus
Posted Friday, May 28, 2004
This story about a Presbyterian Church leasing their facility to a Muslim school is so very sad. What has the church come to? I cannot help but think that God is not pleased that people professing to be Christians should support the propagation of a false religion in this way. Rather than taking their money and allowing them to teach their false doctrines to those children, that church ought to be reaching out to them with the Good News about Jesus.
But I suppose the fact that the pastor of the church actually thinks that the Lord Jesus is the same God as Allah tells us why he cannot see this. Allah is no different from Ba’al, Molech, Zeus, Chemosh, or any of the other false deities of the gentiles. To say that this abomination is the same God as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob takes a blindness that is so very sad.
The only hope for this world is in Christ and Him crucified. Why oh why do we water down the Good News and give people the idea that there is any other hope? We should preach Christ even if it is in a tent.
“Even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus.”
Rev. Austin Olive Faith Presbyterian Church (EPC) , Covington, La.
In further response to Earl Apel
Posted Friday, May 28, 2004
I’ve wondered for some time why Earl Apel and others insist on remaining part of the Presbyterian Church (USA) and changing its stance on homosexual relations rather than moving to another denomination, such as the MCC or the UCC, which has abandoned the orthodox position on homosexuality.
The argument I’ve heard in return amounts to, “I’m Presbyterian and I’m going to stay Presbyterian,” and I’ll grant that has some force, if not enough in my opinion. In Mr. Apel’s case, however, I’m now all the more confused because he clearly isn’t Presbyterian — not theologically, anyway. Even granting the point Ed Koster made in a letter posted on Presbyweb, that the PC(USA) has softened its doctrinal distinctiveness in recent years, it’s still thoroughly Reformed in its theological affirmations, where Mr. Apel, not to put too fine a point on it, isn’t. And he’s an ordained deacon! What have they been doing at Mt. Auburn, anyway?
So, though it seems a little embarrassing to explain basic Reformed (and thus Presbyterian) theology to an ordained officer of the church — and though I’m just a simple country preacher, no professor of theology –I’ll try to offer some response to Mr. Apel’s confusions.
First, to say that God curses evil is not to say that God wants to curse people. Granted, there is a stream in the Reformed tradition (the roots of which can be traced all the way back to Beza) which would argue that he does – any student of Presbyterian history knows that – but that isn’t what any of Mr. Apel’s respondents were saying. The point here, rather, is that God is utterly intolerant of sin. It isn’t his desire to curse any (Deuteronomy 30:15-20), for he desires that all should come to repentance (Ezekiel 33:11, 1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9), but those who will not repent will perish (Luke 13:1-5), because he is perfectly holy (Leviticus 11:44, Matthew 5:48, 1 Peter 1:16; cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:7) and vehemently hates sin (Psalms 5:5, 11:5, 45:7, Proverbs 6:16, 11:20, 15:9-10, 28:9, for starters). Thus God will curse the enemies of his faithful people (Deuteronomy 30:6-7, Isaiah 37:36-38); thus he will judge the evils of the nations (Isaiah 34:1-2); and thus, if his people cease to be faithful, then there are curses waiting for us as well (Deuteronomy 28:15-68 – a passage Mr. Apel didn’t address in any way – Hosea 12:2, Amos 4:6-13, 6:8, Malachi 1:14) – and anyone who doesn’t believe that should spend some time considering the exile. God is absolutely holy and will not tolerate sin in anyone for any reason, which is why the prophets warn that the Day of the Lord will be a dark and terrible day for many (Isaiah 13:6-9, Joel 2:1-17, Amos 5:18-20, Malachi 3:1ff).
Second, Mr. Apel writes, “Why should Christ die on the cross if we are to believe that God truly wants to curse us? Doesn’t that make Christ’s death in vain?” but (once the above-noted error is corrected) this gets the matter backwards. It’s precisely because God hates evil and has pronounced a curse on all sin that Christ had to die, because it was that curse which Christ absorbed for our sake in his death on the cross. Were God the milquetoast bless-but-don’t-curse God Mr. Apel presents, what need would there have been for the cross? The crucifixion points us not to Mr. Apel’s conclusion, that God doesn’t curse, but rather to the recognition that his curse is a far greater thing than we understand, that his hatred of sin is far stronger than we can comprehend, that his holiness is far higher than we know, if this was the price required to satisfy them. The cross shows us how great are the demands of God’s holiness, and how far his love is willing to go to meet them on our behalf – and thus how great a debt we owe, and how seriously we should take his call to live holy lives.
Third, the root error in Mr. Apel’s logic appears to be his parenthetical observation, “You can’t curse if you are loving.” Sounds good, but it doesn’t logically follow. God curses sin because he loves his creation and sin blights it. For the elect, those who accept Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, Christ bears the curse. Those who don’t, who elect to hold on to their sin, bear the curse themselves.
Fourth, where, biblically, does Mr. Apel get the idea that Satan curses? Nowhere in Scripture does it say so; nowhere is Satan represented as cursing anyone, or as having the power to curse anyone. The verb is used with God as the subject, but not with “Satan” or “devil.” In fact, the first two chapters of Job make it very clear that Satan’s ability to do evil is utterly constrained by the hand of God, for it is only by God’s permission that Satan can do anything to Job at all. Further, in the translations I commonly use, the only place where any form of “curse” occurs together with “Satan” or “devil” is Matthew 25:41, where Jesus is the one calling people accursed; far from being the one doing the cursing, the devil is on the other end of that curse, together with all those who fall under Christ’s judgment.
Fifth, the great issue here is the sovereignty of God; this brings up another text to which Mr. Apel didn’t respond, Isaiah 45:5-7. In this passage, God flatly declares, “I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things” (Isaiah 45:6b-7, ESV). God shows himself in this passage, and throughout Scripture, as completely sovereign in everything. Within the great stream of Christian orthodoxy, there have been disputes as to what exactly that meant and how exactly it played itself out, but there has been no dispute with the statement, “I am the Lord, and there is no other.” Even the devil is under God’s authority, as Job demonstrates. By contrast, Mr. Apel’s view, in which “God blesses and Satan curses,” affirms Satan as an independent agent, perhaps weaker than God but outside the scope of his sovereignty; as such, it’s far more in line with dualists like Manichees and Zoroastrians than it is with historic Christian orthodoxy. It’s particularly out of line with the Reformed tradition, which affirms in no uncertain terms the specific sovereignty of God at every point. This is not to deny our own status as free moral agents, but it is to affirm that in every act, every event, every decision we make, God is Lord, and none of them happen apart from his will. Thus Satan cannot be said to curse, because he lacks the authority; only God is Lord, only he is in control, and there is no other.
Sixth, Mr. Apel asks, “If God truly curses then why should we be Christians in the first place?” He asks this question because, he asserts, “this would be a God that simply by whim just likes to curse for the heck of it when God pleases.” The problem is that his statement doesn’t follow in the slightest; to say that God curses is not to say anything at all about why God curses. Indeed, Scripture makes quite clear, as already noted, that God curses sin because of his own absolute holiness. This, then, points us to an answer to Mr. Apel’s question – but, I suspect, a very different one than he’s looking for. From the tenor of his letter, it seems to me that his proposed reason for being a Christian is that God is a loving God who only blesses us and affirms us and gives us good things, who never punishes us or sends us bad things. From my point of view, that sort of God might be worthy of affection but would fall far short of meriting our worship. The biblical God, by contrast, is quite another matter. Why be Christians in the first place? Because the God we worship is Lord of all and the source of all good things; because he made everything that is; because he is utterly holy and good and great and glorious, and when we have once met him, worship is the only possible response; because he has cursed all that is evil and will certainly destroy it, including the evil that lives in each of us; because, though he allows evil to continue for now, he will turn all of it for good in the end; because he is the only God who is, and all other Gods, all other faiths, all other philosophies, all other hopes are false; and for many other reasons as well.
Rev. Rob Harrison Grand Lake, Colo.
About the stated clerk’s race
Posted Friday, May 28, 2004
Just curious as to why we are diluting the votes against Kirkpatrick by running 3 people against him – all of whom, I believe, have similar views.
Why not use just one of those persons to run against Kirkpatrick and quite possibly beat him in the election? 3
Fred Bierly
About the article on the Alpha Course
Posted Friday, May 28, 2004
Reading this article just reinforces my decision to leave the Presbyterian church two years ago. I now attend an independent church that averages 1,000 in attendance every Sunday. Seven years ago, it averaged 200.
Can you guess what program was major factor in that growth? The Alpha Course.
The way the PCUSA is going, it will be all but gone in the next 30 years and that is sad, for me and my family are lifelong Presbyterians. I am just glad I am gone. Good luck.
Randy VanDeventer Manchester, N.H.
Stated clerk debate a service to the church
Posted Friday, May 28, 2004
The Presbyterian Lay Committee is to be commended for this service to the PCUSA. It is imperative that we have the best-qualified person to fill this most important position.
It also will be of the greatest benefit to the PCUSA to have a person in this position who will do his duty as the Book of Order and the Constitution outline, as the present man, Clifton Kirkpatrick, will not do this.
Bud Olinger, Elder First Presbyterian Church
Please consider church where Apel serves as deacon
Posted Friday, May 28, 2004
I have read the informed and detailed replies to the way-off-base thinking in Mr. Earl Apel’s letters. While I would never attempt to belittle his thinking, I would ask, however that one consider the church he is a deacon at – Mt. Auburn in Cincinnati, Ohio. Does the name A Stephen Van Kuiken, et. al bring light to Mr. Apel’s theology? I am surprised he has not moved on with “Rev.” Steve.
Keep up the good work.
James W. Brown Jr.
Choking on the solid food of the Gospel
Posted Friday, May 28, 2004
Someone, please, feed Earl Apel some milk! He’s choking on the solid food of the Gospel (Heb. 5:11-14).
James D. Berkley Bellevue, Wash.
Response to Earl Apel’s Second Missive
Posted Friday, May 28, 2004
In his second letter as in his first, Earl Apel exhibits a dualistic worldview. That is, he believes that God and Satan are two eternal entities, one good and the other evil, battling one another in a colossal arena for the souls of men and women who must decide between them. In this simplistic worldview, to bless is necessarily associated with the good God and to curse is necessarily associated with the wicked Satan.
Reality, however, is quite different. God alone is eternal, omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. Satan is only a creature, like us, with a fixed beginning and a fixed end. Indeed, he is more powerful than us, and for that he must be respected, as respect is given to a ferocious carnivore, a hostage-taking terrorist or a severe thunderstorm. But he is not to be feared, in that he does not have the power to condemn. He is not the judge over fallen humanity. That prerogative belongs to God alone (Mt. 10.28).
Sin, to quote the Book of Confessions, “is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God” (7.014). God, as the holy and righteous judge over all, judges sin according to its severity in His eyes. When the Bible speaks of God cursing, it is in reference to His righteous judgment against fallen man. We have all sinned, and are therefore under the curse of sin — of sin’s presence, sin’s power and sin’s penalty. The curse of sin is this, that we should reap all its bitter consequences, including its ultimate penalty — death, and that we should be subjected to the debasing of our thoughts to be captivated to its utter futility.
Although God is not the author of sin, He is its judge – He is the one who will ultimately bring about its final destruction, along with all those who cling to it.
Jesus Christ became the curse for us (as Paul stated in Gal. 3.13-14, which both Mr. Apel and I stated in our previous letters), receiving in His flesh all the bitter consequences, including the humiliating death on the Cross, on our behalf, that we who believe and trust in Him alone should be delivered from the curse of sin. When He died on the behalf of the elect and rose again from the grave, He delivered us from the penalty of sin. Through the instrumentality of the Holy Spirit working within us and through us to sanctify us, He delivers us from the power of sin. Ultimately, when He returns in power and glory at the end of history, we who are found in Him shall be raised from the dead incorruptible, to be delivered from the presence of sin in order to enjoy the presence of God forevermore.
God’s curses are His judgments, and they are by no means whimsical or frivolous, as Mr. Apel has alleged. “He is the Rock, His work is perfect; for all His ways are justice, a God of truth and without injustice; righteous and upright is He” (Dt. 32.4). He lacks not for knowledge, wisdom, or veracity. Therefore, His judgments – His curses – are true.
To be sure, God most certainly blesses, and for this we must be thankful. But to pretend that God only blesses and does not curse is to substitute an idol of our own making for the one true God, which is dishonorable to, not to mention an egregious sin against, Him.
Loren Golden Overland Park, Kan.
Regarding Apel: ‘If God truly curses then why should we be Christians?’
Posted Friday, May 28, 2004
Simple answer:
To escape the curse (of being unable to keep the Law) and be saved by Jesus Christ (who bears the penalty for us not being able to keep the Law).
Ken Swanson Leonardo, N.J.
Letter writers exhibit ‘sanctimonious self-righteousness’
Posted Friday, May 28, 2004
The sanctimonious self-righteousness of those ready to hurl theological thunderbolts at the “wicked and wayward” continues to come to us in all its glory via letters to The Layman. While they readily paint “liberal Christians” (interestingly enough, Webster’s definition of “liberal” includes the words “generous” and “openhanded” in the no. 2 spot — surely qualities to be desired and manifested by all Christians) as “heretics and unbelievers” who disregard the Bible, they show no evidence of critical self-discernment. I believe our Lord had something to say about that sort of behavior, “Do not judge, so that you may not be judged.”
As to strict adherence to God’s Word, do these pastors, elders, etc, propose that we should get rid of every minister who has been divorced? 1 Timothy plainly states that such persons are to be “married only once.” What hermeneutical backflips enable them to pass this by like the priest on the road to Jericho and then shower condemnation when others do the same thing elsewhere?
Turning to another passage of Scripture, we read Paul’s words to the Galatians describing the works of the flesh that include “enmities, strife, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions ….” If the shoe fits.… In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit, “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity (one of the marks of those dang liberals), faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control” often seem to be lacking in the fulminations of the self-appointed guardians of God’s truth.
Lost in the ongoing debate is any sense of God’s grace that saves us – remember Reformed Theology 101? Salvation will not be ours because of where we stand on the issues of human sexuality, but because of what God has done for us in our Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, belief does matter, but our tradition also reminds us that the fullness of God’s truth (in this world, anyway) remains beyond our grasp, and that because we see as “in a mirror, dimly,” error in judgment and action accompanies us at our best, no less than at our worst.
Rev. W. Patterson Lyles First Presbyterian Church
God curses sin, God curses the wicked
Posted Friday, May 28, 2004
I appreciate the obvious earnest hunger that Earl C. Apel has to understand the Word of God. I am also impressed that he quotes from the King James version of the Holy Bible.
I have spent quite a bit of time and energy studying and praying for the Holy Spirit to give me understanding of this very issue. In answer to his question, “Why one should bother being a Christian in the first place,” I can say that it is ONLY if we accept the Lord that the verse he aptly quotes from Galatians applies. Jesus came to save all mankind, but unfortunately there are some who reject the salvation which He freely offers.
The undeniable fact is that God does curse. It is precisely because of His great love for His creation that He has done this. It is not proper for the created thing to look at the Creator and tell Him what is proper for Him to do.
God curses sin – God curses the wicked – God curses Satan. One great day (sooner than we may think), we will see the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, coming on the clouds of Heaven, and Satan will be finally and completely overthrown. Until then, make every effort to live a holy life that pleases God.
Brian Ahier The Dalles, Ore.
Will the steeple be changed into a mosque-style dome?
Posted Friday, May 28, 2004
How much more will Caldwell Memorial Presbyterian Church, under the leadership of the Rev. Dr. McDonald, tolerate? Possibly they could scrape up enough money to change the steeple into a mosque-style dome.
How much light shines from Caldwell Memorial with the symbols of the Lord hidden even from its membership? Jesus said that if we were ashamed of Him, He would certainly be ashamed of us when we stood before the Father in His glory.
Bob Campbell, elder Kingman Presbyterian Church
No curse’ is from Lite Presbyterians
Posted Friday, May 28, 2004
Mr. Apel is one of the new Lite Presbyterians who believes all may freely sin without fear of God’s wrath. Nine commandments are nearly as good as ten.
There’s not much use in referring Mr. Apel to Scripture. He has his own interpretations. He has persuaded himself that God doesn’t care about immorality and evil. God is redefined in the new post-modern terms as having a mind like Rosie O’Donnell and Susan Andrews.
All those notions from the previous 19 centuries were just misreading of Scripture. God has learned a thing or two in recent years, and now knows what Rosie and Susan knows, that the old perversions are really all right because they re-affirm every person’s right to sexual gratification, which is what God really wants for us. Philip Pettus Pasadena, Calif.
Philip Pettus Pasadena, Calif.