Gradye Parsons, stated clerk of the Presbyterian Church (USA), sat down with ruling elders from across the country to answer questions regarding the state of the church and the denomination.
The question-and-answer session was part of the PCUSA’s Big Tent National Elders Conference workshop that took place Aug. 3 at the Kentucky International Convention Center in Louisville, Ky.
Parsons spent almost 90 minutes fielding questions related to various topics regarding the church and the denomination.
Following is a look at Parsons’ responses to questions posed by those ruling elders who sat down with the stated clerk.
What are you excited about in the denomination?
“I get excited about people,” Parson said. “I see the 1001 Worshiping Communities (initiative) and how it is on the growing edge. I recently served as a Bible study leader at a conference and shared a joyful experience with people. Seeing that gets me excited.”
What concerns you most about the denomination?
“I think God is doing something with God’s church, the church at large; there’s something going on that’s huge,” Parsons said. “I think all mainline denominations believe that. But I’m concerned that we get so wrapped up in our internal whatevers that we may miss the moment.”
Is the PCUSA still losing members?
“We are still losing members, as is every denomination in America,” Parsons said. “We lost 100,000 last year.”
What is contributing to the losses and what can be done about them?
Parsons explained that there are three categories of losses tracked: transfers from the denomination, death and those who fade away, which is the biggest single loss category.
“Those can be a variety of reasons,” he said of people fading away. “It can be a personal struggle with God, a crisis of faith, sickness or death. They may be in church, then they are there two Sundays a month, and then you’re asking, ‘Where are the Smiths?’”
He suggested offering a friendly environment and quality worship as possible ways to keep people in the church.
“Everyone tells me how friendly their churches are, but then no one speaks to people who visit. There’s a disconnect there,” Parsons said. “We need to be learning how to articulate our faith and how to share it. A good starting point is quality of worship.”
How many churches have left the PCUSA this year?
The stated clerk, a self-proclaimed statistics junkie, indicated that 48 churches have left the PCUSA – about half going to the Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC) and half to ECO: A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians. That accounts for 8,695 members, and Parsons noted that most of those departing churches are small, with 15, 20 or 30 members.
Parsons also pointed out some 20-30 churches are dissolved each year, and there are currently 28 on the PCUSA books that are unoccupied.
Do most churches leaving take property with them?
“For the most part, most churches dismissed leave with their property,” he said. “By and large, they leave with some sort of payment in kind. Some go to civil proceedings, but that is not a place we need to have that conversation.”
Is there a way to avoid church dismissals?
“We are on the path that we’re on, a relational conversation that parallels marriage/divorce conversations,” Parsons said. “We’re too far into this now and can’t go back. It’s immensely painful. No matter the theological differences, there still has to be a covenantal relationship. I wish no one would want to go, but I know we (the PCUSA) are not always the top choice. We’ve discovered that being a Christian is a relational business.”
How can the denomination help sustain those discerning the call to ministry and how will Board of Pensions (BOP) changes have an effect?
“CPM’s (Committees on Preparation for Ministry) need to be very honest with those coming through,” Parsons said. “There are a lot more people going into ministry than we have slots for. God has called a lot of ministers into the Presbyterian Church, and I think He is telling us there is ministry to be done. We need to help them be self-starters, to support and encourage them to go do ministry when ministry needs to be done.”
As for the BOP issues, Parsons pointed out that changes may lead to many more bi-vocational calls, noting that approximately half of the denomination’s 10,000 or so churches have 150 members or fewer.
“Most of them are not able to have a full-time teaching elder because health care is a huge driver. Our biggest expense line is health care,” he said. “We lament the loss of mission money, but it usually equals the amount health care goes up. That is going to impact employment in the church.”
What can be done to help pastors who are not employed on a full-time basis?
“Local sessions have to understand that they may need to fill in when the pastor is not available,” Parsons said. “That’s going to be an acquired taste for many of them. They have to recognize the needs, what the teaching elder can do and what others need to do. You can’t blame (part-time teaching elders) who have to work their shift.”
What changes do you see in the future for ruling elders?
“I’m convicted to believe that traditional churches becoming vibrant will be about ruling elders, not so much teaching elders,” he said. “In a lot of places all the ruling elder does is go to a meeting and do communion. We have to get away from that board of directors mentality. (Ruling elders) are spiritual leaders in the congregation with a ministry all their own through the gifts they have.”
Parsons extolled the need for teaching elders to give ruling elders more responsibility, sharing duties with them.
“If you can have (ruling elders) actively involved in leading the congregation beyond the session room, you can have a thriving church,” added. “When elders are in meetings, they should focus on spiritual needs rather than budgets, repairs and things other than ministry.”
Are there new ways to do ministry?
Parsons noted the 1001 Worshiping Communities initiative is a learning lab to conduct ministry in a different way, noting that there have been 120 of them formed to date with a goal to have 1,001 in 10 years.
“It’s really an open-ended question,” he said. “How can we reach people in a new way? Some people in our world do not want to walk into a traditional church setting. It’s like a new baby. Everyone gets excited about it, and it gives hope for the future. It’s a chance to celebrate new life. The goal for us is to enlarge the kingdom. These (initiatives) can help us learn. There are going to be ups and going to be failures. 1001 is a different product line, still part of the church, and we’re excited about it.”
He said the premise of any ministry should be about proclamation of the Word and how it is shared.
“Now, it’s built around one person, usually a dude, who delivers the Word from behind a pulpit. We need to get past that,” Parsons said, sharing that years ago traveling groups would criss-cross the country, stopping to evangelize along the way.
“Somewhere we forgot how to do that, and we need to remember,” he continued. “It’s in our DNA somewhere. I think we need to change, get past the point where we are the frozen chosen and get back to a willingness to serve.”
Why do people not want to be in church?
Parsons quickly pointed out that judgmentalism is the No. 1 reason people stop going to church. Additionally, he noted that millennials (those people ages 18-30) seek fairness and they leave if they feel the church is not living it out in practice.
“Many people try to interact with a loving God and receive such unlovingness in return by those people in the church around them,” he said. “Why would they stay? We believe in a church with some sense of discipline, but we need to leave room for people who live life differently. But if it’s not what we want – those who dress like us, have the same skin color, the same standard of living – we walk right past them. That’s not going to work.”
What’s coming up at the 221st General Assembly?
Parsons said a lot of the topics of discussion left over from the 220th GA in Pittsburgh will be on the agenda for next year’s gathering in Detroit June 14-20.
He expects marriage and divestment to be hot-button issues, along with the Belhar Confession and a final vote on the Heidelberg Catechism as well as results of investment in Israel. He does not anticipate too many tweaks to the Book of Order.
He expects a conversation centered on racism, noting that many of the goals and concerns discussed prior to the 1983 merger still have not been attained.
How can we convey GA discussions to our congregations?
Parsons suggested keeping an open line of communication with the congregation during the GA’s proceedings and told those attending not to get bogged down in parliamentary dynamics.
“They don’t care about that. They want to know what’s important and why,” he said. “They want to know what’s decided and how it will impact them, as a congregation or individual. They want to know what they will be asked to do. That’s what you need to be sharing with them.”
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A big issues that is driving many people and churches away from the PCUSA, The Gay agenda wanting to redefine marriage which Biblically is between 1 man and 1 woman for a lifetime. Homosexuality and Lesbianism along with polygamy is an abomination to the Lord.
Tell the truth please not your running around the truth as if the Gay agenda does not exist. More will leave because the PCUSA Leadership is in sin.
This is astonishing. Parsons thinks PCUSA membership is declining because people are “fading away” (that part is true), and it’s the fault of people in the pews who aren’t friendly enough to visitors?
I have often wondered, and still do, which is true of PCUSA’s leaders: That they know their agenda is driving away up to a hundred thousand members a year, but they don’t care as long as they achieve their agenda; or that they are genuinely blind to the fact that they are a primary cause of these hundreds of thousands of people “fading away” in the last few years, and really think those people left because nobody was friendly to them in church.
I don’t believe it’s the case that “every” denomination is losing members, although many clearly are, including ones that previously enjoyed strong growth like the Southern Baptists. But a 5% membership loss in 1 year seems to be in a class by itself.
In any case, the elephant in the room is the revelation of shockingly mean and cynical litigation tactics on the part of the denomination against the Carrolton church. That shows that a spiritual sickness characterizes the state of the church at this time.
Like Don, I am astounded that Gradye Parsons thinks I left the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) because the folks of my former church were not friendly enough to me. For forty plus years these folks loved me and I loved them. Until the leadership policies, that slowly transformed “my” church from a church that truly focused on my spiritual needs, to a church that has become a progressive political activist organization changes directions, this church (political organization), will continue to lose members. Good grief! From 4 1/2 million in the 60’s to a little over 1 million members today, because church members weren’t friendly enough or the ” quality of worship” is lacking is such a disconnect from reality. Over the decades I watched in sorrow as the church embraced a strong leftist social agenda and moved away from the spiritual emphasis that I valued and needed. My heart is heavy for the PC(USA) as I continue my search for a new church home.
What planet is Gradye Parsons on? He sounds like an Obama Political spokesman when he answers these questions. Is there any truth in any of his answers?
For Grady to state that “most of those departing churches are small, with 15, 20 or 30 members” is a complete falsehood. 85 churches have been released by their presbytery so far in 2013. Only 6 have 30 members or less. The average membership for all of them is 215. Another 36 church congregations have already voted to leave PCUSA and are awaiting dismissal by their presbytery. (Average size for those pending = 516)
For Gradye to sit up and say that the denomination has only lost over 8600 this year is outrageous, to say the least. As the current trend of departure goes, that’s close to the average of people who are led out of the PCUSA every month! As for friendliness, that can come at a premium in the PCUSA if you’re inclined toward traditional Biblical standards and believe in moral absolutes. I can’t believe how baselessly he promenades around the real issues that have reduced the PCUSA with an all too heretical banality. With “leadership” like this, it’s a wonder Louisville hasn’t completely folded already.
None are so very blind as those who will not see. And that is the situation with Gradye as he really wants to believe what is proven false despite the avalanche of truth being built up day by day. People are disgusted and want to have a church that recognizes the Bible as our sole guide, not some left leaning politically correct that wants to conform to the world’s morality standard. I did fade away, I ran for the door.
PCUSA is finding a decrease in membership because of unfriendly congregations. This is laughable on face value. Pehaps the losses are due to the tone deaf authoritian style of management starting at the General Assembly and filtering into the Presbyteries. Most Presytery meetings I have attended as a Commissioner appear to be no more than rubber stamps for the collective agenda of the GA. My personal take is that PCUSA leadership is attempting to curry favor with the Secular Porgressives and their political allies to avoid governmental sanctions when issues relating to political incorrectness become law and the church will no longer have protected 501-3-C status if it violates these secular mandates. It appears we are clearly in a battle between man’s law and God’s Law in the PCUSA. As PCUSA leadership increasingly turns its back on God’s Law and embraces man’s law and the codification of sin they should expect more and more exodus to denominations who continue to embrace what God has commanded us to do. After more than tirty seven years in PCUSA, I can only shake my heard in bewilderment and pray for sanity to return to our church.
Jim, source of your stats? I don’t dispute but need source of data to convince some skeptics who assert that such numbers are guesses.
The “left” stole our church and is now reaping the rewards. I couldn’t agree more with all the previous writers. The PCUSA leadership all are living in sin. As our children grew up and moved to other areas, they looked for a presbyterian church that didn’t follow Amendment 10A. They couldn’t find one, so dissolved their membership with their home church. One joined a Methodist Church and another joined a Lutheran Church. Our third still is in the home church. Fortunately, our church is conservative including the leadership. We have a beautiful stained glass window of our church logo. It’s a reminder that we are Presbyterian. There are no plans to leave, yet, but we are not happy with the leadership at the top.
Google some of these….(click on Search Tools and set the custom range to 1/1/2013 – present.)
presbytery administrative commission dismiss pcusa
presbytery docket dismiss pcusa
denominational task force pcusa dismiss
dismissed to covenant order of evangelical presbyterians pcusa
dismissed to evangelical presbyterian church pcusa
Neal Presa is right, they are losing about 5 congregations per week.
Those can be a variety of reasons,” he said of people fading away. “It can be a personal struggle with God, a crisis of faith, sickness or death. They may be in church, then they are there two Sundays a month, and then you’re asking, ‘Where are the Smiths?’”
Does Parson have his head in the sand or is he intentionally misleading the church?
Those can be a variety of reasons,” he said of people fading away. “It can be a personal struggle with God, a crisis of faith, sickness or death. They may be in church, then they are there two Sundays a month, and then you’re asking, ‘Where are the Smiths?’”
Does Parson have his head in the sand or is he intentionally misleading the church? The reason on membership is pure liberalism and loss of Biblical integrity.
Many thanks!
Rev. Grady Parsons displays the same wishful thinking that the members of the PUP committee had when they
elevated unity with diversity at the expense of peace and purity. In order for their vision to happen
they had to change the meaning of God’s way of loving by dying to take the place of sin and instead
presented a gospel based on accepting sinful behavior. One lie begets more lying.
God is doing something BIG but it may not be the kind of emergent unity rev. parsons thinks.
Though his answers seem unconcerned with the “fading away” of people, there is also a disbelief among progressive leaders that members and evangelical churches are not going “along to get along” with these goals. The fact is the goals of PUP have failed and there is no peace, no purity, and no
Unity and that is evidence that God’s power is stifled by Leaders like Parsons and the reason why so many leave.
This is true. And even if the churches were small churches, does that make it right for people to care less? Apparently for Parson’s and PCUSA leadership, if you are a member of a small church you are less important! He ignorant cavalier attitude is degrading to everyone in a small church. It shows the real ones who are non-caring. It shows the hypocrisy at the highest levels of the denomination. The small, the weak, the vulnerable, the oppressed, the peoples of this world with minimal resources, etc. are highlighted as precious treasures of God, worthy of our missions effort. But then, when our smaller churches, some of which are doing amazing ministry and mission in their regions on very limited resources, leave the denomination, the attitude is . . . ‘oh well, they’re inconsequential, they’re only a small church of 15, 20, or 30 members.’ This is an incredible display of non-caring, hypocritical, arrogance. I’ll try to be gracious here and offer Parsons the benefit of the doubt that he is not purposefully a phony, but is truly ignorant of his insulting uncaring attitude toward people in smaller churches. Bottom line: If you’re from a large church you have value and importance to the denomination. If you’re from a small church you do not.
First Winston Salem, Third Richmond, First Yakima, Menlo Park, Sax Gotha and Christ Edina are the next large churches to leave soon. Membership = 1465, 1175, 914, 3382, 1336, 5388
Brilliantly said!!
SHAME! Parsons sounds like the devil in church clothing! Please people excommunicate this horror.