Presbyterian Lay Committee Board of Directors repudiates action of PCUSA General Assembly

Thanks for your statements, Carmen. I have nothing but love and respect for those like yourself who have taken on the role of Jeremiah in the midst of a people who are actively turning away from God, to call out the error of their ways and to urge repentance among people whose hearts have been hardened to the call of our Lord. God bless you all.

So, you’re in favor of divestment after all?

Thank you, Carmen and Presbyterian Lay Committee for this statement and for its strong witness to the truth. It’s comforting to know that within our denomination there are still strong faithful Christians unwilling to follow the herd.

Is it time for the PLC to remove itself from all involvement in the PCUSA in order to focus on a more fruitful ministry?

“You should refuse to fund the General Assembly, your synod, your presbytery and even your local church if those bodies have not explicitly and publicly repudiated these unbiblical actions.”

Or you could just leave.

This is a very sad day for the Presbyterian Church…They have gone off God’s cliff…

Thank you, Carmen and the Presbyterian Lay Committee for your statement of protest repudiating the action of the GA to redefine marriage. Your statement I am sure expresses the heartbreak of so many PCUSA members. The Holy Spirit is grieved.. Thank you for expressing truth.
Kay Green

There are many Presbyterians that do publicly repudiate these unbiblical actions and have been literally trying for years to leave and are still wading through the “gracious dismissal” policies. It is not nearly as easy to leave as you indicate.

The door’s over there. It’s easy.

It is mean spirited comments like yours and Jim’s that make the decision to leave the PCUSA much easier. Our ties to our own congregations, who share our understanding of the Bible, are much harder to disavow. I wish I could rejoice that you will be the one supporting all of the beautiful empty church buildings across the country while we get on with the important things – at least until there is no PCUSA at all. Only time will tell.

The Holy Spirit is rejoicing!

As it is not the prerogative of the PCUSA to tell PCA entities not to fund their own church, it is not the prerogative of the PCA to tell that to the PCUSA. I am sure you want your denomination to grow–“negative selling” is a poor way to do it. BTW, didn’t I read of a prospective split in the PCA over intinction/nonintinction? There are always different views within any denomination–and proposals to split may follow.

As John Wesley noted—What one generation tolerates, the next generation will embrace. Even within the church change does occur. Your point of view lost, now you have to decide what to do, and whether you will do it with character and class, or with bitterness and crassness.

Carmen, nobody would expect the Lay Committee to support the actions of the Assembly today. The Lay Committee should not expect those of us who love the PCUSA, even at times when we may not agree with all it actions, to take lightly the subversive call to with hold funding from all levels of the councils unless they knuckle to the view and stance of the Lay Committee. With regular reading of the Layman in print and online for many years, it is obvious the Lay Committee does not support the PCUSA. That is okay. It is not okay for brothers and sisters in Christ to subvert and disparage other members of the body of Christ. I am very sorry to read the present position of the Lay Committee.

There some spirit rejoicing, but I’m not sure its Holy …

I really don’t understand what you’re saying here. The Layman has always been a voice in the PC(USA).

Today’s voting by the apostate majority delegates at GA demonstrates their contemptuous mockery of the Scripture posted on the homepage of the pcusa.org website:

“Consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God.” Rom. 6:11

So was the subversive behavior of same sex everything supporters going all the way back to the 1970’s wrong? What about the use of the Property Trust Clause to imprison, punish, and pillage congregations which have voted to leave? I’d call it a corporate method used by the 1% (PCUSA bureaucracy) to pillage dissenting congregations.

I don’t see the “call to action” by the PLC as being subversive in the least. Nor can you rightly imply that the PLC (and those of us who have opposed many GA decisions over the years) doesn’t love our denomination. They speak for a lot of members and congregations who have no other voice. Since the exodus from the PCUSA has increased substantially each year (now each month), the PLC isn’t inciting anything.

Since I could not have said it any better than Robbie … Amen!

They will be selling the forfeited property, and living off of that income until there is no one left to rob. It is my understanding that the San Francisco Presbytery no longer claims that the ransom demanded of departing congregations will go to Missions. It’ll most likely be used to employ ordained clergy who can’t find a paid call because healthy congregations would never call them.

They do NOT publicly repudiate these policies while they remain in an apostate church.

They should stop worrying about “gracious dismissal. It’s an unbiblical distraction. If Paul had waited for the other pharisees to graciously dismiss him, half the New Testament would never have been written.

Amen, Jester! Supporters of gay ordination and marriage have basically wrecked the denomination in order to get what they want.

………..AND Now, you may kiss your ………what ?…………….. ( And this glorifies God ? )

Meanwhile, the other 1.75 million of us mourn the Presbyterian Lay Committee’s mean-spirited, unchristian bigotry and pray that its members come to better understand the teachings of our Lord, Jesus Christ. We encourage Presbyterians everywhere to refuse to fund the PLC.

Horse apples.

Get over it Wayne………..your crew has spent 30 plus years doing nothing but subverting and disparaging those who advocate obedience to Scripture and who refuse to worship at the alter of tolerance, Take a deep breath Wayne……………and reach in you pocketbook….you will need to pony up a little more.

Stick with it. You’ll figure it out someday.

Jim, you guys and gals just love tolerance for everyone………….. except,….. those who don’t agree with you., who you then encourage to leave,….and they have………I think I’ll stay cause your bunch is just so much FUN…………..anything goes

Romans 1:
21. They knew God. But they didn’t honor him as God. They didn’t thank him. Their thinking became worthless. Their foolish hearts became dark.
22. They claimed to be wise. But they made fools of themselves.
24. So God let them go. He allowed them to do what their sinful hearts wanted to.
25. They chose a lie instead of God’s truth. They worshiped and served created things.
26. So God let them go. They were filled with shameful longings.
28. They didn’t think it was important to know God. So God let them go.
31. They are foolish. They can’t be trusted.
32. They know that God’s commands are right. They know that those who do evil things should die. But they continue to do those very things. They also approve of others who do them.

Do Not Be Joined to Unbelievers
Bible believers cannot and should not try to be united “as one”, with Bible non-believers.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18
14. Do not be joined to unbelievers. What do right and wrong have in common? Can light and darkness be friends?
15. How can Christ and Satan agree? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever?
16. How can the temple of the true God and the statues of other gods agree? We are the temple of the living God. God has said, “I will live with them. I will walk among them. I will be their God. And they will be my people.”
17. “So come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch anything that is not pure and clean. Then I will receive you.”
18. “I will be your Father. You will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord who rules over all.”

Thank you Presbyterian Lay Committee

The Layman has, since it became obvious that those it supported would not be running everything, or even be the governing majority in the PCUSA, said all it could to belittle, badmouth, discourage and dis spirit those in the church. Calls not to support GA, to without per capita, etc. are hardly heard for the first time here. After a while ( a few years back ), as was their right, of course, The Layman stopped focusing almost primarily on PCUSA news, and began giving more and more coverage to other more conservative Presbyterian denominations and bodies.

The Layman once was a voice in the PCUSA, but it some time ago became a voice Shouting AT the PCUSA, and hardly a constructive, loving or helpful one. Although, I admit I have used the tone of several of its articles as examples of how conservatives think and write when talking to commissioners before they went Presbytery meetings and GA’s. In that sense, its been helpful indeed.

Agreed. PLC fought the good fight, but it’s over. Even if it was arguable before, it’s not now. Full apostasy is here. Time to go.

I pray for the church leaders to come back to God. I have refused to be a part of this blasphemy and have found a new home in the United Methodist Church. As the father of a gay child, I love the child but hate the sin. Don’t be fooled into thinking 1.75 million believers in God believe this is right

For more than 40 years the PLC has tried to subvert the Presbyterian Church. When the General Assembly does something the PLC does not like it calls it apostate, misguided, non-Biblcal, etc. It is as if the PLC is the only true Kirk. What bologna we have heard over the years.
Today a majority of elected commissioners voted to approve same-sex marriage ceremonies can be performed by Presbyterian clergy in states where it is legal. The PLC went ballistic and demanded a withholding of giving to all judicatories that do not support the PLC point of view. This is abhorrent. This denies the democratic values of the church.
It is time for the PLC to leave and go into whatever dark corner is best for them. Go to the EPC, or the PCA or wherever. Just go. You’ve done enough damage with your lies and negative attitudes. I am sure the PCA will welcome you with open arms. But I am not sure you will like all of the baggage of the PCA.

Sure it is, just leave and find a bible based church.

Frank,

I think you jumped from the frying pan into the fire. The UMC is in chaos now with clergy openly disregarding denominational standards on marriage and sexual behavior and a number of bishops are now refusing to discipline clergy who violate these standards. I won’t say that it’s hit the level of anarchy yet, but it’s getting close. Besides, you do understand that UMC theology is in no way Reformed, right? On the other hand, if you feel that you can be justified by your works, you should be very comfortable with Methodism (I know, theoretically Methodism does not say this, but the almost total emphasis on social justice leads to works justification in practice).

The Lay Committee’s statement is both sad, and frankly, frightening. Instead of speaking for the Divine maybe you should be listening!

Thank you for standing firm, speaking wisdom, and continuing in the face of persecution.
I appreciate The Presbyterian Lay Committee!

“The door’s over there. It’s easy.”

I think this is what the meaning of the policy of ‘inclusion’ really is!

If you don’t think it’s just a matter of time before the Methodists also come around, you’re deluding yourself.

In the midst of all this I still believe in the sovereignty of God. “His winnowing fork is in His hand and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but the chaff He will burn with unquenchable fire.” Matt 3:12

Look, same-sex marriage is an emerging issue in religious and civil society. PCUSA couldn’t ride the fence forever. It has made a decision, and when it did, it called immediately for efforts at reconciliation. PLC has called for withholding all support from local congregations, synods and presbyteries. All I saying is that, if the decision the PCUSA has made is so objectionable to you, why not find a place to worship more suited to your convictions? I know I would. Inclusion is for all, but you have the choice whether (and where) you want to be included.

And yet when others called our denomination “apostate”, “abomination”, “unbiblical” when we ordained women, the Lay Committee remained and affirmed women and eventually called a woman to lead them. I dare say those who broke away from us when we ordained women continue to affirm these views. How do you explain this journey of embracing women to our former brothers and sisters in the PCA? How do you answer their claim that our denomination and you are “unbiblical” and “heretical” for embracing the ordination of women? It would be interesting to dig through the archives of The Layman to read what was said all those years back when we were debating the ordination of women.

Rob, I believe they are listening to God’s Word and yes to God Himself as He has revealed His holy will in this matter. They are listening to Scripture. They are listening to the Creator, the natural design of creation and the creation mandate to fill the earth (heterosexual and monogamous marriage). God calls His people to speak and not to listen to those who deny His Word but rather to rebuke them lovingly.The saddest passages in the Bible are those that describe the people of God who do not listen to His prophets. Those are also the most frightening passages of the Bible. If you think that God is known only as “the Divine,” that is rather sad as well. I don’t even think that word is ever used in Scripture. It could speak of most any religion’s God or a concept of God or an impersonal God. Jesus blessed marriage between a man and a woman and it was inconceivable to Him to acknowledge anything else. He also called for sexual repentance and He called the Apostle Paul personally to preach and decry the many ills of that day, including sexual immorality. He spoke through Paul by His Holy Spirit and Paul’s writings are inspired, evident to all, quite clear in this matter and worth listening to as well. He that has hears to hear, let him hear….

Your last name must be “Calvinist”, cause you are not related to John in any way.

Jim, but why wouldn’t I want to stay here and get those warm and fuzzy feelings ( and others ) and be able to do whatever I want and just feel the depth of acceptance and tolerance where ANYTHING GOES………Here I could do what is right in my own eyes……….( I heard that somewhere before ).

Years ago, I left the PCUSA because of it’s liberal tolerance beginning with abortion and homosexuality, bi sexuality (I took a group of high schoolers on a retreat only to be led by a bi sexual woman. Really a good example for my kids.) I really don’t care what anyone thinks….but I do care what God thinks and His word is VERY CLEAR…Abortion and Homosexuality are an abomination to him (Read early Old Testment writings and Romans 1) We keep trying to water things down. God says, “I change not!”. Love the sinner; hate the sin. Many friends I have are homosexual…but I do not stand with their lifestyle. Neither does God.
Years ago, we left and were grateful for the Lay Committee….it helped us stay connected to our roots…Just extremely grievous that the mainline church has changed so very much. My great love is for the theology of the Presbyterian church ….. but not for it’s politically correct changes.

I feel liberated. Our congregation here in Melbourne Florida elected several years ago to leave the PCUSA, and joined ECO. We are flourishing and growing. I feel much pain for those who have to remain in the PCUSA as their congregation is stuck in that misguided denomination. That organization continues to lose high numbers of members as individual families vote with their feet, and transfer to to other denominational churches. At this rate, this denomination at some time in the future will report zero members or just a few die hard liberal folk who think they “carry the flag” for the PCUSA. God is not mocked, and this is just what the GA is doing. I have been a Presbyterian all my life, 84 years of it, and I still subscribe to that form of church government as the best way to serve Christ. However, it has resulted in anarchy in our denominational system as a few leftists have all but destroyed the denomination. What is next? Nude congregaitons?

Thank you so very much, Carmen and the Presbyterian Lay Committee, for being the prophet of truth and for standing firmly on the Word of God. The Institute on Religion and Democracy said in a statement issued yesterday (the day of the vote), that if the PCUSA continues in its present rate of decline, there will be no more members within twenty years or less. Another institution has labeled the PCUSA “pseudo-Christians. The PCUSA Louisville leadership, mostly liberal presbyters, and ministers who won’t teach the truth of the Scriptures to their members have brought the denomination to a turning point. They and the GA has built its house on sand, and it will not stand. With its support of all forms of abortion, with its campaign against Israel (God’s chosen people), and now with its approval of gay marriage and ordination, the exodus of churches will exponentially increase. I have grieved since 2010, but I now realize that God’s Word addresses this very situation, as stated by Karen, from 2 Corinthians 6:14: “Do not be joined to unbelievers.” It is time for all churches to pull out of this pseudo-Christian denomination. I pray that all PCUSA churches will take this admonishment seriously. Turning its back on God’s Word yet again is the final straw. May God have mercy on all of those who have brought the PCUSA to this point.

Correction: “They and the GA HAVE brought…”

I agree

“time for the PLC to leave and go into whatever dark corner is best for them”… This doesn’t sound like something Jesus would say. “denies the democratic values of the church”… God and the bible are now a democracy??. What happened to the rule of law? “damage with lies? and negative attitudes” Where is your tolerance for others? This is church to worship according to scripture and praise God, not a liberal social club.

Those opposed to the passage of these overtures may have expressed such in a genuine and loving manner reflecting their beliefs. Sadly, it seems that, more and more, these folks are becoming much like the South in the middle of the 20th Century.

I respect that choices have consequences and that some people and churches will leave PCUSA. As much as I will hate to see it I am not willing to insist PCUSA step back in time to retain these folks. This is a joyful and painful time for our church but we continue to march forward.

Huntington, that is a gracious response, but why won’t presbyteries allow easy exit from the denomination for those of us who feel we are yoked to Gomer? I would think you would be glad to be rid of us rather than holding us hostage. At this point, appealing to the BOO on property issues really isn’t an honest argument.

You mean listen to the liberal majority rather than the inspired Word? No thanks.

Just ask the members of my church, First Presbyterian Oostburg, how easy it is to “just leave” the PCUSA. http://layman.wpengine.com/milwaukee-presbytery-wants-500k-let-oostburg-congregation-leave/

The EPC will also protest this denial of catholic Christianity by the PCUSA. Appreciate PLC taking a stand for the historic faith of the Church.

My guess is that Gene, Will, and A Calvinist are the same person.

Your point of view lost before, and what you decided to do was dishonestly pledge to uphold the constitutions of the church, while deceitfully violating and subverting those constitutions.

You have no high moral ground to stand on. None.

The PCUSA may be a democracy but the Body of Christ is a theocracy. The head alone is Jesus, the Christ.
The PCUSA may vote something here at GA, but it in no way changes the Word of God which stands forever.

I believe that PCUSA taking positions on political items violates the separation of church and state.

Thank you Presbyterian Lay Committee for speaking the truth! This entire statement was prophetic and timely!

Mr. Calvinist sir, you are calling people who disagree with you to go away. Think of the comments you just made and think what would you have said if that was said to you.
Your vocabulary and tone of language sounds so angry and bitter, sir, smile, you won, the PCUSA is yours. Now you can practiced hospitality to those that want to stay and worship in your church.

I remembered the good old days when liberals or progressives spoke about acceptance, tolerance and love and gave you a smile, a handshake or a hug. Now that the culture has shifted in to “anything goes”, many are showing their true self, hatefulness. intolerance, name calling, accusations and persecution is the norm.

What’s next for bible believing Christians in the USA? I’m afraid to say that I doesn’t look good. We only have to look to other countries today, even Mexico, persecution is alive and well. As we take a look at memory lane and remember what the Hebrews did to the OT prophets when they were called to repent? Or what happened to Jesus, Stephen and most of the apostles and it has not stopped since. If you study
the history of the printed the bible, some of the translators and common readers were persecuted and murdered. It’s obvious that the enemy of God doesn’t want the message of the scriptures to go out to people.

The liberals stayed in the PCUSA and are the instruments in turning the institution into what it is today. Is it relevant to the present culture? It seems to me that the answer is no, the secular culture is doing a good job in promoting what liberal Presbyterians believe, so basically who are they going to preach to, what message they are going to preach and what is the source of their message and authority? Born again Christians are not backsliding into death and darkness, so basically they will be preaching to the secular liberal choir.

I have never heard any Presbyterian church that I attended and served in calling people to go away and hide, on the contrary, it has always been a call to come as you are. But imagine if the church Of Jesus Christ would stop calling sin a sin? Then what you have is a group, an organization or even a religious organization that may have the best intentions in their thinking and have the nicest people, but it will not be the Christian church as stated in historical Christianity or the NT.

Any person or entity has a right to stay in the PCUSA if that is what they want to do. Last I check, we are in the USA who still have some liberty. By the time you finish reading these words, hundreds if not thousands of people will be dead because of their faith in Christ in some part of the world. Some people have chosen to stay in places of danger in order to be faithful witnesses to Christ; likewise if God calls people to stay in the PCUSA, then stay and do what God calls you to do.

Is the PCUSA going to died? Probably not, there are enough funds to keep it going for many years. Also there are enough people who like to be around like minded individuals in a club that requires no responsibilities, no dues and you may even get free donuts and coffee.

If I wanted to pick a cause to fight for in the PCUSA, it would be to work to get the name “ church” removed as not to cause more harm to the kingdom. I still believed that the Church of Jesus Christ is alive and well and billions will come to know Jesus and become disciples and their lives of sin and darkness will be transformed into a new life in Christ Jesus. ( 2 Cor 5:17)The spirit of God is moving people to repentance and they are looking for something new and powerful, we don’t want them to be deceived into believing that because a building or denomination has the name “church” in their stationary that it is the church as written the new Testament.

I’m sorry if I offended my fellow evangelicals with by sense of humor, I’m sad, maybe is a way to cope with my sadness. Some how I knew this was coming, I fought hard, I prayed, I spoke and wrote, now that it has come, it’s a very sad day for me to see the church I love fallen. I will continued to pray for the church as long as I live and somehow hope against hope that people will see the light of Christ and repent from their sin.

Amen , excellent thought

Thank you for your excellent summation. Your comments are accurate and helpful. It strikes me that this seminary and others like it as well as many pseudo christian professors began this movement away from biblical principals and scriptures. They have immersed themselves in secular politics. Going to a pcusa in my region is like attending a political action committee meeting. We has to leave, or I literally felt as if I was going to die in spirit

Horrible decision. Abomination PCUSA. Good bye God’s Word,

Amen.

1. The PC (USA) is not run by majority rule. The strident, unreasoning, politically liberal faction is now in control; by the way, ALL tyrannies are tyrannies by the minority of the majority. The leadership of PC (USA) is not diverse or accommodating. The leadership does not hold that the Bible is THE source document of/for Christianity. The leadership is willing to compromise basic principles and tenets to ‘get along’, ‘not offend’, ‘stay relevant in today’s culture’, etc. 2) Can you imagine the great reformers studying what the PC (USA) has become and not be shocked? I suspect that Calvin, Knox, Wesley, et al, would be lining up behind Luther to nail some theses to the PC (USA)’s HQ. 3) Not one of the issues discussed, debated and voted upon at this GA added one whit to the preaching, teaching, evangelizing and living the Gospel and the Word of God. 4) When was the doctrine of “because something’s legal, it should be accepted by the church” get adopted? The list of legal activities that should not be condoned by the church is a long one – but one that is shrinking as each GA bows down to secular humanism as a guide for church policy and behavior. It’s time for those who care to stay & fight to do so. However, the likely result of our self-destructive policies will be an accelerated decline in membership; most will find churches that still want to be churches – not adjuncts to the national Democratic party.

IF individual PC (USA) churches en masse decided to switch their affiliations, say, to the PC (EPC), the PC (USA) couldn’t afford the embarrassment and bad PR of not letting the churches go. They’d have to accommodate the congregations and allow them reasonable property settlements. Otherwise, the PC (USA) might be painted as some sort of wealthy land owner sticking it to the ‘tenant farmers’ who have been loyal workers for decades. The individual congregations DO have power & influence if they choose to use it.

Hopefully, the majority of the local Presbyteries will reject the actions of the General Assembly pertaining to all political issues not directly related to Church activities in furtherance of the ministering process.

This headlong movement into non-biblical political questions may very wel destroy the Presbyterian Church.

At this rate the Pby Church is becoming little more than a club.

One last thought: On second thought, some things are best left unsaid…

If nothing is a sin…who needs redemption?

My ancestors would be saddened, including Rev. William Graham founder of Washington and Lee University, who enrolled and oversaw the complete education of the first black college graduate in North America, and who enrolled a married woman with children, “one at the breast”; and he did this in the latter 1700’s in the largest slave-holding state in the nation. With Graham’s tutelage, Mr. John Chavis became the first black Presbyterian minister in America. Of course, this is all virtually unknown, but then, Rev. Graham wasn’t about shining a light on himself. His focus was on the Christ.

Consider folllowing Rev. Graham’s lead and call for a general convention in each Synod or Presbytery as the current rules provide and reject this ill advised set of political statements. When Mr. Graham did this in re Jefferson’s Bill for Religious Freedom in Virginia, he did it because the subject of Church and State related directly to the affairs related to the Presbyterian ministry.

May God be with you,

Sincerely Kent S. Graham [Wilcox via step-parent adoption]
East Lansing, Mi
kwilcox@acd.net

There is no law in the constitution regarding ‘separation of church and state.
This idea is based on a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists in 1802
http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html
which stated the government should stay out of the church business….not the other way around.
What the Constitution’s First Amendment *does* say is that government shall make no law “respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” It is well to attend to the actual words of the Constitution.
Nowhere is this more important than with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment: forbidding an official establishment of religion is something quite different from the much looser, imprecise term “separation of church and state.”

I find it curious that the PCUSA sees its actions regarding homosexuality as prophetic and brave. The pro-gay agenda is now the norm in our culture. Those who speak against that agenda are the brave ones who are genuine prophets in a society that wants to silence them. Persecution of traditional-values Christians is on the rise and will get worse in the years ahead. Will the PCUSA speak up for them? I doubt it.

I was about 14-15 at the time women were ordained. I thought it was wrong then and still do 60 years later. That was the beginning of the end for PCUSA as a church of Jesus Christ. Evil is rampant in America.

My Dad was raised in the Presbyterian Church. I was raised Baptist. All the comments takes me to the book of Daniel Chap 3 vs 16-18. This tells us how easy it is to leave an apostate church and seek a Bible believing, Bible preaching Church!! May the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ direct your feet, mind, heart and soul.

As far as I know God created the gays too. Are you sure he would want them to be treated differently than straight people? God makes no mistakes which is more than I can say for us humans. How would you feel if your daughter or son turned out to be gay? Would you wish for them to be discriminated against and not be allowed to marry their loving partner?

That 1.75 million number will change downward pretty rapidly once the impact of the recent GA is felt. What will the leaders of the GA say when they show up at Portland in 2016 with 100,000+ fewer members than just two years before? Will there be regrets or cheers that those Bible-thumping, old-fashioned members who don’t buy into the Democratic party platform are no longer a part of the church? Is this the Presbyterian form of ethnic cleansing?

Very well said, Geo. This is one of the most misunderstood and misinterpreted concepts in America. You are spot on. Thanks.

Rick Wolters
I agree with the Calvinist

AMEN

The Presbyterian Lay Committee should change it’s name to The Baptist Lay Committee
Rick Wolters

How would one go about starting a movement to get the word “church” removed from the Presbyterian Church, USA? My fondest hope would be for both the word Presbyterian and Church be removed from its name; since it is no longer “Presbyterian” or a “church”.

I was sharing with my family how sad we all are. The original confessions of the PCUSA are so beautiful, so biblically centered and now they have forsaken solid biblical theology for a cultural gospel. My children were born in the PC. They are adults now and have children of their own. As young adults they left the PC to attend bible believing churches and two of them are in professional ministry and the other is also involved as lay person in the music and children ministries, for that I’m thankful. I stayed and tried to be a faithful witness. I was even a commissioner to GA all to no avail. Year after year for 30 plus years most of our energy and millions of dollars of God’s money went to deal with the issues I stated.

We have to remember that the PCUSA started in a path of heresy for some time now. With big issues, like the authority of scriptures, once that was won, it became like domino effect, if the bible is longer the authority, then anything’s goes. Them it became obvious that the PCUSA became universalist, Jesus deity was denied and He no longer was the “only way”, then came the high intensity of left wing politics, the horrible, horrible denial of life for millions of babies, by promoting abortion on demand and adding insult to injury by supporting late term abortion and as of late, refusing to take a stand against the murder of babies who survive abortions. If we watch an abortion film, the practiced is a barbaric. Then there is the constant attacks on Israel and the intimidation and persecution of Pastors, congregation’s and anyone who does not agree with their left wing antichrist philosophy; their refusal to accept the bible as the ultimate biblical authority. Prayer went out the window and then, there is the constant mockery of the scriptures and the pagan practices in public gatherings and churches as seen with the Sofia fiasco. All these things have resulted in what the PC is today.

The general assembly has become a den of heresy, is unlikely that any evangelical, bible believing person would get a job in GA or get elected to be in a committee.
I have not heard comments about these issues that I mentioned, I love to hear comments from bible believers, especially their thoughts about the abortion issue of late.
Concerning the removal of the name ” church, or Presbyterian”, I don’t think that will happen. So far, from what I hear from people the PCUSA is not a popular denomination among the Jewish community and their supporters and from the thousands of people that work in Motorola, HP and caterpillar, so who knows, it may be to their benefit to change their name. I know that some churches in my area have spoken many times about removing the Presbyterian. name from their churches
May God have mercy in all of us, since we the bible believing Christians, are part at fault, for not speaking earlier and allowing the heretics to get in committees at every level until they took over the denomination. I’m afraid this cause is loss, just like The Church of Christ, The Evangelical Lutherans and other mainline denominations. They continue to go on, smaller in numbers but going on preaching a social universalist gospel.
I call on all believers in Jesus Christ to pray for the PCUSA, something supernatural could still happen if the Presbyteries and believers take a strong stand for biblical authority.

If I had a son or daughter, who was a Christian believer, who thought they were gay, I would expect the same sexual purity of abstinence for them that God’s Word instructs for any unmarried person.

That is the correct answer! (Except nobody wants to hear it let alone live it out.)

Cherie… God didn’t create gays any more than he creates rapists, murderers, pedophiles, adulterers, etc… IT’S A CHOICE THAT THEY MAKE TO PRACTICE THAT LIFESTYLE. Saying that God “made them that way” is a lie that they embrace in order to gain the sympathy of the true Christians. Love the sinner… not the sin. If one of my sons told me that he was gay… I would still love him, but I would mourn for the sin that he has embraced. And since my sons attended a Reformed Christian college, they realize that homosexuality is a SIN as defined by the Word of God. You could choose to either abide in God’s Word or reject it… that too is a choice.

Romans 1:26-27 – “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”

As the grandson of two Presbyterian ministers and the brother of another one, I am appalled at the actions of the GA!! Let us now see what the individual synods and presbyteries do. That will tell the tale as to the general state of the PCUSA!! I am afraid of those results and if the PCUSA, as a denomination refuses to support the clear teachings of scripture, then it truly is apostate, and it is time for believers to leave!!!

Yes, I know – we are going to hell in a hen basket. We know – we know – we know. Ya’ll have told us and told us – so – we get it now. Thanks for judging us. It is very uplifting indeed.

Brother Kent, good comments; thanks! presbyterianism has a mixed history, doesn’t it? several years ago, some of the guys who helped start the P.C.A. told me that, in addition to wanting to maintain and expand a presbyterian/reformed presence worldwide, they were committed to racial equality, affirming one another, image bearers of our Sovereign Lord, no place for segregation. they did not see this practiced well in the mainline denominations just as, now, we see the persecution of our unborn children. very, very sad. may our Lord, by his spirit, yield a new generation of bold leaders, elders and pastors, driven by a healthy fear of his holy name! “When the righteous triumph, there is great glory, but when the wicked rise, people hide themselves.” Proverbs 28:12 thankfully, we have earnest groups of believers striving to hear and heed the Word, good examples as we strive to be faithful, for Jesus’ sake. with prayer, thanks for you, Dale Seifert

How can anyone with a conscience “fully led” by the Holy Spirit, Who is forever aligned with scripture, choose to vote against anything in the inspired, pure, living Word of God, which is Jesus Christ Himself, our one sure source of Love & Truth, for all time? I’m deeply grateful that our Lord God taught us to be of One Accord, IN HIM, and that He never changes, in this ever changing, anxiety-ridden world.
Carolyn

Comment from Kevin Williams, emailed to The Layman Online 6/29/14: I sent a letter to our Teaching Elder calling for a special session to examine each action of the GA, concur or denounce them on an individual basis, recording the findings in the minutes, and disseminating those to each member of the congregation. The answer I got was not satisfactory. I believe that a congregation which remains in the denomination supports it even if it says that it doesn’t agree with its actions; therefore, we cease to support this congregation so long as it remains a part of the PCUSA.

This is what the Apostle Paul had written years ago 1 Cor 1:10:

A Church Divided Over Leaders
10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters,[a] in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

So, with that in mind, what are the divisions? The different Christian denominations, over 33,000 of them in the world!

Quite frankly, I don’t get why the PLC thinks its any of its business to “repudiate” anything of the PCUSA. Your members have either defrocked themselves or left the denomination completely. Some of you have even led your own congregations out of the denomination. Ever since you convinced the conservative congregations to kill the enormous World Mission programs the UPCUSA and Southern Presbyterian Churches had, you have thrown one rock after another at the Presbyterian Church. If stoning were a technical skill you could claim it to be a core competence at the PLC. And now, ironically, you have helped create the most liberal Presbyterian Church there has ever been, by scattering the conservative congregations to the denominational Four Winds. You should celebrate in your achievements rather than throw more rocks at your child.

a very sad time for the PCUSA indeed. and a call for repentance is certainly in order.

however, it’s become painfully obvious that the enemy has infiltrated virtually every Christian denomination. there are enemy operatives at all levels of even the largest Christian Churches on earth. forces of evil will not win this battle, we already know the outcome, but we have a long way to go. in the process of trying to save our brothers and sisters from the deceptions of Satan let us not forget to preserve our own souls. as Christians, spending more time praying for lost souls is the only weapon we have; virtually all of the bricks and mortar churches may eventually be under a one world religion, then what do we say and do?

first and foremost let’s all try to remember we are responsible for the salvation of our own souls. what we say and do during these difficult times we will eventually be held accountable for, same as everything else. there is no such thing as justified evil; saying/doing evil to try to bring about social justice. it’s very easy to pass judgment on others, this is also something we’ve been taught as Christians not to do. we’re walking a thin line here, between wanting to help our friends and wanting to save our own souls. we should always err on the side of saving our own souls first, otherwise we risk making the same mistake that we are accusing others of doing, namely the sin of playing God, by passing judgment on others.

eventually i believe we are ALL individually going to have to make the painful decision to simply walk away from this; meaning so called church organizations, bricks and mortar, internet, etc. it’s rapidly moving in this direction. the time it takes to prepare for this transition is enormous. will we all be ready, i hope so.
the remnant army has been forming for several years now. it is a small but powerful light in the darkness.

For more than 40 years the PLC has tried to subvert the Presbyterian Church. When the General Assembly does something the PLC does not like it calls it apostate, misguided, non-Biblcal, etc. It is as if the PLC is the only true Kirk. What bologna we have heard over the years.
Today a majority of elected commissioners voted to approve same-sex marriage ceremonies can be performed by Presbyterian clergy in states where it is legal. The PLC went ballistic and demanded a withholding of giving to all judicatories that do not support the PLC point of view. This is abhorrent. This denies the democratic values of the church.
It is time for the PLC to leave and go into whatever dark corner is best for them. Go to the EPC, or the PCA or wherever. Just go. You’ve done enough damage with your lies and negative attitudes. I am sure the PCA will welcome you with open arms. But I am not sure you will like all of the baggage of the PCA.

To so called calvinist:

The organization the former pcusa signed its death warrant on giving pastors permission to marry 2 people, either man/woman, woman/woman/, man/man, and I will throw in man/animal. When you violate the Holy Bible, we, who contend for the faith will rise up and tell you: you are wrong.

The former pcusa does not believe in the Holy Bible, they are condemned to the Lake of Fire, Rev. 20 and 21.

Hey Rick,

The truth hurts doesn’t it.

Francis Shaffer warned about the PCA in 1982, with too many apostates hiding out and waiting one day to take over the PCA.

No Bob, the PLC is contending for the Holy Bible, unlike you, a lap dog for apostasy.

The organization the former pcusa is going down in flames, the same reflects the Titanic and will sink in the misery of its own sin. Romans 3:23, The wages of sin is death.

Wrong Jodie,

The former pcusa has destroyed itself by repudiating the Holy Bible and the WCF decades ago, and what would you expect???? Hugs and kisses to the apostates in the pcusa???? Get real, grow up.

How??? Simple Acts 13:10, and when you are of Satan, anything is possible.

Hey fella, at least you know where you will spend eternity, i.e. with the devil and his angels. Is this what you want, or you just being funny???? Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23, John 14:6, which I think you know, and get out of Sodom.

Yes, Pray and Leave at the same time, the organization is dead, a live corpse.

Sin is sin, and the effect of the cause is apparent.

The pcusa is dead.

In the name of so called Unity, the Presbyteries will approve the action of GA 221 with orgies, sexual fantasies for days maybe years. The gays got what they want except Sodom, and the destruction will one day destroy the pcusa.

God has given them a strong delusion that the pcusa is believing a lie, 2 Thessalonians 2:11. Why???
The Bible makes it clear why God is sending a strong delusion in the end times: “They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness” (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12). Simply put, God sends a strong delusion to those who chose not to believe the gospel of Christ. Those who take delight in mocking and rejecting Him, He will condemn.

How would you feel if your daughter or son turned out to be gay?

I would tell my son and daughter if gay, I love you, but being gay I do not love, and help them get into a Bible Believing church. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

What’s next for bible believing Christians in the USA? The gays, the radical gays will do everything to persecute us who do not believe in their sin. Who would have ever thought we would be here in the history of the Church??? The Body of Christ has been lukewarm as I realized this 50 years when I became a believer in Christ, July 17, 1964, and look at the church now??

Tell that to Heath.

Money, money and money.

Which Authority, which Confession??? After 84 years, you no doubt has seen so much apostasy, and I wonder if your believe in the authority of the Holy Bible, traditional marriage between 1 man and 1 woman, and subscribe to the WCF without deletions of the modern versions?

An Elder of 1 man and of 1 woman, and how can a woman be a husband unless she is gay? Better for woman to be deacons, and better yet wives.

Today a majority of elected commissioners voted to approve same-sex marriage ceremonies can be performed by Presbyterian clergy in states where it is legal.

Legal to you in your neo-orthodoxy, but illegal from the Holy Bible’s point of view, so you are the rebels thinking you are god.

I am sickened by this “response,” but not surprised.

Just a short time ago Bible verses were quoted to up hold the sin of women wearing pants, women leaders in the church, couples living together, children born out of wedlock, women being submissive to men, meals at church. These people were banned from the church. Every educated person knows all of the above are personal choice. The gay’s don’t have a choice no more than you can determine if you want to be right or left handed. Do you really want to sit in God’s seat and judge someone else. Good Luck! John 8:7 and Matthew 7:1-2 “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.”

the business model PCUSA, and it’s offspring, has been flawed from the beginning. a business created by man for man. to my knowledge there was never any vow of poverty either expressed or implied, which was the fatal flaw from day one.
a group of non-consecrated souls sitting in judgment, passing those decisions down as doctrine for others to follow. correct, that’s what this organization has been about from it’s founding, man judging man. while a separate (one would hope, but it’s not clear that there’s no overlap…which would be even worse) group of PAID servants, ministers and administrators, are motivated by money to corrupt the system even further. a prescription for disaster, which is exactly what we’re seeing now.

i haven’t done the research, but if you’ve got paid people, being paid a salary and/or benefits by the church, sitting in voting positions at the highest level, well then forget about it, it’s not even worth discussing anything if that’s what’s happening.

if Presbyterians believed in the Bible, which the overwhelming majority surveyed do not (85% in my last PCUSA church) they would have realized by now that in the end times even more souls would be on the wide road than normal, very few on the narrow road. that’s why you’re seeing almost every Biblical truth distorted and ignored; women dressing like men, women, and men, going out in public with almost no clothes on….almost none of what we’re seeing going on today is Bible based. the world has become corrupted to such an extent that man is blind to the truth. the biggest lie of all is that none of this matters, i.e. souls can do whatever they want and still be saved.

the major problem we’re having now, in all Christian denominations, almost no one believes we’re at the end of the road, even though the Biblical signs are all there. most souls here talk about the future as if there are many more years to sort these issues out. there’s not that much time left. countless souls are wasting precious little time in these humanly impossible to resolve failed businesses, scrambling to grab and protect assets before they become bankrupt failed businesses.

“The General Assembly consists of commissioners elected by presbyteries. Half of the commissioners will be ruling elders, half will be teaching elders.”

found this in the PCUSA website. correct me if i’m wrong but it looks like you’ve got half of the GA consisting of ‘teaching elders’. it goes on to explain in the PCUSA website this is just another term for ministers. i assume all these guys, and gals, are on salary. hence you’ve got half the GA voting to keep their paycheck, and the other half theoretically not directly motivated by money. which is another subject entirely; i personally know of at least one lay elder using the organization as a business networking device, but that’s beside the point. no way are you going to resolve these issues when you’re paying your own ruling body. can’t believe we’re even still talking about this, it’s game over.

“The General Assembly is the highest governing body of the PC(USA). Until the 216th assembly met in Richmond, Virginia in 2004, the General Assembly met annually; since 2004, the General Assembly has met biennially in even-numbered years. It consists of commissioners elected by presbyteries (not synods), and its voting membership is proportioned with parity between elders and Ministers of Word and Sacrament.”

from wiki. so there we have it, half elders (lay people) and half ministers.
what’s needed is a list of all these souls and exactly how they voted, then go after them one by one to root out the evil from the church. talking in open public forum like this won’t work, they’re hiding behind anonymity, that’s how they got away with so much in the first place. the lay elders i don’t think are the primary problem, i assume they’re not on salary/benefits/pension.

Echo, Bravo.
Who cares what the PCUSA has to say about anything.
It has been leftist infiltrated, it is a scam, and any credibility it has now is a left over.

John; Thank you for being bold in sharing God’s word! It truly is a two-edged sword. I fear for those who have left the faith of the Bible,which leads them down the road to destruction. God truly is NOT mocked. What a person sows, he shall also reap.