Two churches – on opposite sides of the country – have been dismissed for more than a million dollars each from the Presbyterian Church (USA) by their respective presbyteries to join ECO: A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians.
The 580-member Walnut Creek Presbyterian Church in California was required to pay $2.7 million – approximately $4,700 per member – to San Francisco Presbytery before it was dismissed to ECO on Feb. 26.
The 800-member Crestwood Presbyterian Church with two campuses in Virginia – Richmond and Midlothian – was required to pay the Presbytery of the James $1.5 million to be dismissed to ECO. The average amount per member of that settlement is $1,875.
Walnut Creek
According to a source familiar with the settlement, the $2.7-million – “take-it-or-leave-it” – price tag the presbytery insisted on was far above what the presbytery’s dismissal policy required.
The presbytery’s “Policy for Reconciliation and Dismissal of Congregations” states that
Payment based on assumed property value. Presbytery may permit a congregation seeking dismissal to leave with its property provided that the congregation makes a payment to Presbytery of ten percent (10%) of the fair market value of all of the real and personal property in question (with the value as to the real property held and utilized as a place of worship being based on the value of the real property as an ongoing place of ministry and worship, less any outstanding debt on the property), provided that this property-related payment shall not exceed the applicable amounts set forth below, which amounts are determined based on the size of the congregation seeking dismissal and a maximum assumed value of real and personal property:
With a property value of approximately $9 million, Walnut Creek’s dismissal price — if the presbytery had followed its own policy — should have been $900,000. When asked how the presbytery came up with the $2.7 million amount, the Rev. Victoria Wells, a member of the Presbytery Engagement Team (PET) said it was “based on the amount we felt it was worth to you to be dismissed.”
While “payment” section of the presbytery’s policy was ignored by the PET – another section of it – requiring the church to continue to pay its per-capita for five more years after it is dismissed was factored into the $2.7 million payment.
When asked about the discrepancy of one section of the policy being ignored while another part was enforced, a member of the PET said that the per-capita requirement was “the part of the policy that is still in effect.”
Paid in full
Thankfully, according to the source, actions taken by church members in the 1990s made the multi-million dollar payment possible.
In the ’90s, the church bought an apartment building located on property adjacent to the church. The church had “no idea what to do with it,” the source said. The building is now in the process of being sold and will net approximately $2.4 million.
Also in the 1990s, a member included the church in his estate planning. This past summer, the church was notified of the bequest, which included a note from the lawyer apologized for how long the notification took. One of the heirs of the estate had passed away. Another charity that had been named had ceased operations. Therefore, the amount the church received from the bequest increased from $150,000 to $340,000.
That amount – added to the proceeds from selling the apartment building – gave the church what it needed to pay the presbytery.
Crestwood
Crestwood’s dismissal was approved at the Feb. 20 meeting of the Presbytery of the James (POJ). In an announcement posted on the church web site, Pastor John Daniel wrote:
With joy I report to you that today at the meeting of the Presbytery of the James all terms for our dismissal to the ECO were approved. This means that all approvals needed have now been received and the only matters remaining are the legal documents regarding ownership of land and our payment to the presbytery of the agreed upon amount. These matters should all be completed in the next two weeks.
There was no discussion by the presbytery of the recommendation of the Trustees that the matter be approved and there were only 6 “no” votes. It was great to have so many elders and members present. Thanks to all who were there.
In effect, this entire matter is now resolved as far as the process is concerned. Thank you again for your prayers and support. What a great day this is.
The congregation voted by 98 percent on Jan. 10 to approve the $1.5 million property settlement. The church’s dismissal – except for the property settlement – had been approved by the presbytery in March 2015. A property settlement was finally agreed upon by the POJ trustees on Nov. 3, 2015 and then approved by both the congregation and presbytery.
In an article published on The Layman web site, Daniel and Jerry M. Roper wrote that the dismissal process “stretched over three years, and involved 19 months of contentious negotiation with two presbytery bodies; first an Administrative Commission (AC) and when those negotiations failed, the Board of Trustees.”
“Crestwood detailed for these 18 POJ representatives the crushing impact a million dollar plus settlement would have on evangelism, missions, and ministry. Yet throughout the lengthy dismissal process not one of these POJ representatives stood up for Crestwood or advocated for the people served by our outreach and mission programs,” the two men wrote. “How is it that teaching and ruling elders, who in some cases have known and worked with Crestwood elders for decades, can remain silent and participate in foisting such a crippling financial burden on those they call ‘brothers and sisters in Christ?’ The answer is that the POJ representatives have a vision of God and humanity that is fundamentally different from the vision embraced by Crestwood’s session. The struggle between these two visions drove Crestwood’s dismissal process, and likewise is driving the ultimate demise of the PCUSA.
Related items:
Recommendation and report of the POJ trustees on Crestwood Presbyterian Church, Feb. 20, 2016 (starting on line 36 of page 1)
18 Comments. Leave new
And we ALL know that this money will be used for missions and the spreading the Gospel…………..YEAH RIGHT!
They love the money, but not the message coming from these departing churches. These churches are growing, the life of the denomination, but they ignore the Gospel proclaimed by these departing churches. The PCUSA thinks they win but in the end they loose what would be the saving message to the next generations. God will do whatever it takes to spread his message and bring about His will…..sometimes it is severe…..but there is hope in His sovereignty!
The GREED of PCUSA’s leaders makes one weep. Where is love? Where is justice? Where is mutual concern? The Reverend Victoria Wells should be ashamed her motive was so clearly declared. I am sorry I still have connections to this denomination.
As painful as it is to experience, there is something salutary about the stripping away of the pretense that many of the movers and shakers in the presbyteries of the PCUSA are “brothers and sisters in Christ” to those of us who are evangelical, biblical and orthodox Christians. They are not, and have never been.
While there are a few presbyteries that continue try to be fair and just in their dealings with congregations that ask to be dismissed to the EPC or ECO, such presbyteries are becoming increasingly rare, and are heavily outnumbered by presbyteries that are baring their fangs and inflicting as much pain and suffering as they possibly can on departing congregations.
The door is rapidly closing on “gracious” dismissals, and very soon the door will close completely on almost all dismissals, after which time the only congregations that will be able to leave the PCUSA with their property will be those that have lots and lots of money, are located in states that follow neutral principles of law, and are willing to go to court to protect themselves. All others will have everything they own taken away from them, and will have to begin again from scratch.
It is a very good and comforting thing to know that God is always with his people, and that in him all things will indeed work together for good.
The PCUSA is making no attempt to be generous or hide its motives in dealing with churches requesting dismissal. It’s an indicator of how bad things are in the PCUSA that the churches leaving are willing to meet these outrageous demands.
It was C.S. Lewis in “Mere Christianity” which stated that ability to feel shame or guilt over one’s actions and behaviors is that which defines the presence of Christ or personal redemption in one’s life. The null is that the absence of, is usually indication of the demonic or a life unredeemed.
Such is the PCUSA in general, Presbyteries in question more specifically. The cardinal mistake conservative-evangelicals make time after time in these property disputes is the assumption that people on the other side of the table are Christian, redeemed, or are in some state of relationship to Christ. By their actions and behaviors they prove themselves as shameless, lacking that ability to regret their own greed, avarice, and shameless money, power grab. Their own works and deeds expose them for that they are.
That said there are some common steps churches and clergy considering departure could do to mitigate the pain and stress.
-The matter of denominational affiliation and real estate are two different issues and should be processed differently. Any church in question should remove affiliation off the table prior to the legal engagement over real estate and property.
-A competent tax attorney could provide counsel and advice as to protecting non-real property assets from Presbytery and denominational interference.
-Going back to Lewis. The primal sin as he understood it was pride. Or Ego in more modern terms. Denominational bureaucrats, liberals all have one thing in common, an inflated sense of entitlement and pride, bordering on narcissism. You deny that to them, disrespect that, call them what they are, give it a name. They will not like it one bit, but they will be on notice that they will not have the final word.
in regard to: ” “How is it that teaching and ruling elders, who in some cases have known and worked with Crestwood elders for decades, can remain silent and participate in foisting such a crippling financial burden on those they call ‘brothers and sisters in Christ?’” how about turning that around: “How is it that teaching and ruling elders, at Crestwood who in some cases have known and worked with Presbytery of the James elders for decades, can work so vigorously to demonize, condemn as apostate, and reject being associated with those who they call ‘brothers and sisters in Christ?’
I suspect that the reference you cite had to do with the dismay that was felt by some people toward the handful of actual Christians who still remain in the Presbytery of the James, not toward the many faux-Christian “brothers and sisters” in that presbytery who exposed the true nature of their religiosity by extorting $1.5 million from the people of the Crestwood Church.
For my part, I do not feel any animosity toward believing Christians who still remain in that benighted presbytery. They are not unlike the Pakistani Christians who were brutally attacked this past Easter Sunday. They are a minority group surrounded by religionists increasingly hostile to them and to the Lord whom they worship.
Until God provides a means of escape for faithful believers in the Richmond area, we should keep them, endangered as they are by their own presbytery, very much in our prayers.
“faux Christians” – I don’t know how you decide on this Donnie Bob, maybe it takes one to know one? For me and I my house; if I hear someone “confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord” I will go with that. Unlike Donnie, I will leave the other part for God to know: “and believe in your heart…” I think what I hear you saying is that if someone shares your beliefs in regard to congregational dismissal, then they are a true Christian – if not they are a faux Christian. Here is what I say, we are all calling on the name of the same Lord, who simply asks that we be one.
It is a fairly simple matter. Swindlers who extort millions of dollars from Christian congregations reveal clearly in doing so that they have never met Jesus, do not know him, and certainly do not follow him. Jesus said: “By their fruit you shall know them.” (Matthew 7:16) Jesus also said a few verses later: “Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)
The extortioners and swindlers in the Presbytery of the James can shout “Lord, Lord” all day long, but it is by their fruit and not by their words that they are truly known. And it is by their actions in regard to the Crestwood Presbyterian Church that everyone with eyes to see is able to know what is in their hearts.
Paul wrote in I Corinthians 5:11, “I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler.”
Sometimes a person has to choose sides between those who have been swindled, and those who have done the swindling and will now be pocketing the proceeds. It’s just as simple as that. And if you honestly believe that Jesus stands on the side of the swindlers, their pockets stuffed with the money that they have taken from the Crestwood people, then you need to do some serious soul searching.
Proof that your concern is justified appears in the February Minutes of the meeting of Mission Presbytery:
COM recommends that Presbytery approve the removal of the Covenant Order of Evangelical
Presbyterians (ECO) from the list of Reformed denominations to which this presbytery will dismiss congregations and teaching elders, until such time as they can demonstrate that they will act in good faith and require congregations and ministers to have followed constitutional processes for dismissal, with the following exceptions: First, San Antonio, since their dismissal to ECO is part of the mediated agreement between the church and the presbytery; and Leon Springs, San Antonio and First, Ingram, both of which have followed the Gracious Separation Process and are currently in its final stages.
There was discussion of the Motion. The motion was put to a voice vote, and failed.
The motion failed . . . this time.
Clarity.
Thank you.
Jesus will be able to determine (and already has) who is and who is not a “faux Christian.” His Word is unmistakable.
“Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” Matthew 7:22-23.
He is aware of who is and who is not truly His.
[ True and False Disciples ] “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER who is in heaven.” Matthew 7:21.
The loss of millions of dollars to retain their property is not the tragedy here. These churches have been brought, by the willful disobedience and disregard of the clear teaching of Scripture by ordained ministers, presbyteries, and their former denomination, to the place of having to separate to maintain their doctrinal integrity and devotion to the Word of God. The PCUSA abandoned its first love and first commitment—God and HIs revealed Word.
This is the greater tragedy. And one with eternal consequences for those He finds are “faux Christians.”
Churches wishing separation from PCUSA are primarily interested in obeying the “great commission” of going into the world to preach the gospel. The alternative is to have a millstone (PCUSA) impeding that calling. The Presbytery has decided to hold our congregation hostage, levying an impossibly outlandish one-half of the appraised value of the property. How about “God Bless You. Go forth in the power of the Holy Spirit and Preach the Word.” That would be the Godly response, wouldn’t it? ARM
“Graceful” dismissal was a victim of this process a long time ago. It’s a term that is null and void, if indeed there was truly any validity to it. One thing that never seems to be covered is just what happens to this money that is collected. The amounts are obscene, made more so by the fact that no longer are many of the presbyteries paying attention to the predetermined formulas. It is ALL about money and, I suspect, exacting as much pain as possible from those churches that want to leave.
This is not to say that the churches are not already in pain having struggled over such a serious decision. The desire to leave is certainly not something being taken lightly and it’s a shame to feel as though the denomination is running these churches off.
We’ve been watching the leadership for a while and it seems perfectly comfortable with the departures. Suffice it to say those churches leaving are the “conservatives.” With the conservative base getting much smaller, the leadership is free to pursue its own liberal platform and policies in unfettered fashion. Sure there are surveys and sure there are listening sessions. But what kind of answers do they expect to get from the remaining churches and presbyteries?
It’s a circular problem. Unfortunately, it’s also a downward spiral. How can the leadership be so proudly overseeing the steep decline of what was once a great and meaningful denomination?
I would suggest those churches seeking to leave the pcusa to hand over the keys to the Presbytery and walk away with your congregation, start a new church, and the money the pcusa would require, use the same to build a new building IF you have born again, Bible believing blood washed believers in Christ. Your testimony will honor God.
So, it’s somehow more Godly for the mutineers to make things about money but not the presbytery? That, even though all the affected churches willingly agreed to terms under which they are being asked to uphold. Weird bit of twisting of the gospel and covenant going on to simply rationalize one’s desires and position by judging the PCUSA Presbyteries wrong and the offending mutineers right. And for what tiny absurd reason? Sexuality? Really? That’s just petty and silly when we all see in so many other and bigger ways. Pointing fingers and calling names is hardly what Jesus demonstrated and charged with doing. Other than just being human and generally poor at keeping his tenants, how can you really think your words and actions are right with God? Let you without sin cast the first response.
Sorry, Bob, but saying something like “let you without sin cast the first response” is just a way of trying to shut out opposing voices and intimidate those of a different point of view into shutting up and letting you have the last word. Nice try, Bob, but that is not about to happen.
Several points.
First, your word “mutineers” is misleading. In the real world, mutineers take over a ship or an institution in some way. The people at Crestwood, Walnut Creek, etc., are not trying to take over their presbyteries or the PCUSA. They are just trying to get out of an abusive relationship, and are being abused even more for daring to make the attempt.
Second, your sentence fragment “That, even though all the affected churches willingly agreed to terms under which they are being asked to uphold.” does not even make sense. One can guess at what you are trying to say here, but it might be wise for you to convert your thoughts into normal English sentences before posting your comments.
Third, your description of sexuality as “a tiny absurd” thing may reflect your values, but it does not reflect the Bible’s point of view. The Bible addresses questions of sexuality from beginning to end. Read it, Bob, and you will discover that Scripture does not consider sexuality issues as either tiny or absurd.
Fourth, your comment “Pointing fingers and calling names is hardly what Jesus demonstrated ….” is patently untrue. In his dealings with the scribes and pharisees of the apostate Jewish religion of his day, Jesus was constantly pointing fingers and calling names. Read the Bible, Bob, and you will see that Jesus was anything but sweet and polite in his confrontations with them.
Read the Bible, Bob. You will be amazed at the Jesus who emerges from its pages. And if you look carefully at what Jesus does, and if you listen carefully to what he says, you will come to see just how far astray the PCUSA has wandered from everything that Jesus is and from all that he represents. You will also gain a better understanding of why those who are committed to faithfully following Jesus as Lord and Savior are leaving the PCUSA in droves.