Tired of ordained PCUSA pastors thumbing their noses at the Book of Order
Posted Wednesday, March 31, 2010
Pressdemocrat.com reports that Jane Spahr, a retired PCUSA pastor, is again facing discipline charges for officiating at the marriages of same-sex couples. Scott Clark, Spahr’s defender in this case, states that she legally married these couples when same-sex marriages were permissible under California state law. Spahr asserts she conducted the marriages as a “matter of conscience.”
I am a PCUSA pastor in a state that has allowed for same-sex marriages during the past six years. I also live on the island of Martha’s Vineyard. Each summer I receive phone calls from gay and lesbian couples who want to be married on this beautiful island. I thank them for the call. I also express that I can’t marry them because my ordination vows specifically state that I am not to officiate at a same-sex wedding service. Furthermore, as a “matter of conscience” I won’t go against the ordination vows I took 28 years ago when I became a minister of Word and sacrament.
Personally, I am sick and tired of Jane Spahr and every other ordained PCUSA pastor that has thumbed their nose at the Book of Order. These pastors need to be disciplined and removed from service in the PCUSA. Unfortunately, we have men and women serving in the disciplinary process who don’t have the Biblical conviction and courage to enforce the Book of Order. They have allowed persons such as Spahr and others to intimidate them. As reported recently, the denomination is “facing continued drops in membership, a shrinking budget and is offering severance packages to about 30 employees at its Louisville headquarters – part of an effort to cut its budget by nearly one-fifth by 2012.” One does not need to be a theologian or Bible scholar to know why we have lost so many members. It is clear that this denomination is experiencing March Madness and I am not referring to the NCAA basketball tournament.
Dr. Jeff Winter Martha’s Vineyard, Mass.
Teeth need to be added to overture on blasphemy
Posted Wednesday, March 31, 2010
Upon reading the headline “Presbytery wants PCUSA to stand up for Lord’s name,” I uttered an enthusiastic “Yes!” in my mind and clicked on the article. “It’s about time!” I thought. “We need this.”
But then I read the overture, which is about as mild as the blasphemy is egregious.
Yessiree! We Presbyterians are so very offended with our Lord’s name being taken in vain that we’re going to … uh, we’re really going to – Hmmm. What are we going to do? I know! We will, um, we’ll have someone else write a letter for us. Yeah, that’s it. We’re going to have someone write and send a lot of letters saying that we are outraged. So watch out! We Presbyterians are on the rampage!
Don’t get me wrong. I agree with the intent of the overture. It’s good to step forward to do something about the coarsening of our society, and, more, about the profligate demeaning of our Lord, our good and gracious God who ought to be exalted.
But shouldn’t the something we set out to do somehow match the level of the offense? Shouldn’t the something show the measure of our seriousness, even our willingness to sacrifice a little to bring about a necessary change? Our reflexive Presbyterian “solution” of dispatching pompous letters and considering our job done is so lame. We puff ourselves up with pride, thinking we have taken a stand, when in reality, we accomplish nothing.
So maybe there could be some teeth amended into the overture. What if we widely agree to forgo shelling out shekels to view movies that spew profanity, especially profanity that shows “blatant disregard for the sanctity of our Lord’s name?” What if we find a way to identify, say, the five worst examples on television, publish the list, and urge Presbyterians to decide: (1) to watch something else, (2) to let the networks know that we are doing so, (3) to boycott products advertised on the worst-offending shows, and (4) to let the advertisers know our displeasure and decision to boycott their products? What if we find ways to involve family, friends, co-workers and classmates in conversations about sensitivity to the hurt that careless, God-maligning language causes for Christians, and suggest more accommodation to those of us who rightfully wince when God’s name is taken in vain?
We’ve got to move the PCUSA beyond the spineless “direct the stated clerk to write letters” syndrome. What an exercise in futility! We might as well direct the stated clerk to compose letters in his alphabet soup, for all the good it would do. If, in truth, we’re unwilling to do anything substantive, let’s not take the time at General Assembly to consider a matter we’re not serious about addressing.
Can’t we actually do something, rather than just huff and punt?
James D. Berkley Bellevue, Wash.
Support for overture on standing up for Lord’s name
Posted Wednesday, March 31, 2010
Hear, Hear!
You have my support on this overture as well the support of many of my friends. I just wish I could say that my presbytery would be as supportive as I am. But alas, it’s not to be.
Richard Conway, elder First Morganton, Presbytery of Western North Carolina
Article describes many of the church minds of our day
Posted Thursday, March 25, 2010
I am a layman, a 40-year member of Spring River Presbyterian Church, Hardy, Ark., and as such, enjoy The Layman very much.
The article entitled “Vanishing Christianity,” was especially interesting as it so well describes so many of the church minds of our day and hour.
However, our Bible states explicitly on this subject that “heaven and earth shall pass away, but my Words will not pass away.”
And then, it follows if they don’t pass away someone is and will be holding them forth; a true follower will be holding them forth in perpetuity, according to this Scripture. Elijah felt he was left alone but was so very mistaken.
But for this Scripture to apply we must first, believe the Scripture.
Louis Seibert, elder Hardy, Ark.
Article shows PCUSA’s greed
Posted Wednesday, March 17, 2010
Re: Embattled church property on the auction block
Very sad and unnecessary. PCUSA greed.
Renee Guth Tucson, Ariz.
What is temporary supply pastor doing?
Posted Wednesday, March 17, 2010
I must admit that I’m confused. I just read that the congregation of First Presbyterian Church of Safety Harbor, Fla., has left the PCUSA and is now worshiping in a neighborhood library. The presbytery has named Rev. Virginia Simmons Ellis as temporary supply, in light of Rev. Joan Hill’s resignation and renunciation of the presbytery’s authority.
My question is, if the congregation has already left, not just considering doing so, what exactly is Rev. Ellis going to be temporary supply of? A building with no people inside? If so, then maybe when she arrives at the empty church building this Sunday, she can:
- Play solitaire
- Bring some people with her and pretend that they’re the church.
- Bring a truck load of department store mannequins, spread them among the pews, then tell everybody that the house was packed, or
- If the pastor’s study has a TV, she can sit and watch TBN.
This comes shortly after the Stated Clerk of the PCUSA made his gripping speech about how life is like a surfing contest. I’m sure that energized and enlightened everyone. The extent to which PCUSA officialdom is losing touch with reality reminds me of Don Quixote charging windmills.
Larry Brown African Bible College
Layman headline was alarming
Posted Wednesday, March 17, 2010
I was alarmed by the headline in the February Layman “More than half of PCUSA Presbyterians reject Jesus as sole savior.” The article reported that a majority of pastors, specialized clergy, elders and members in a recent Presbyterian Panel survey did not agree with the statement: “Only followers of Jesus Christ can be saved.”
I myself am a PCUSA pastor with strong evangelical beliefs that Jesus Christ is the only Savior, the only way to the Father (John 14:6), and “the only name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). However, as I reflected on the actual question in the survey, I became more hopeful that perhaps things are not quite as bad as we might conclude from the survey results.
Surveys are only as good as the questions they ask. The survey statement to which panelists responded said “only followers of Jesus Christ can be saved.” Here is my reflection: might some of the panelists believe, as I do, that still-born or aborted babies, mentally challenged persons and children who die before an age of accountability are indeed welcomed into Heaven by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, yet before their death would not have had the mental or moral capacity to understand the Gospel and choose to become a “follower” of Jesus Christ? Are they saved through Jesus Christ? Absolutely. Is He the only Savior? Without question. Were they His “followers” in an active, conscious sense? In their case that isn’t possible.
If the statement on the survey had been, “Jesus Christ is the sole Savior and the only way to the Father” I suspect the answer would have been different for at least some panelists who marked “disagree” or “unsure.” The apostasy and mushy theological thinking in our denomination is bad enough as it is – let’s not let the wording of a survey question make it seem worse than it is.
Charlie Winkelman, pastor Jersey Shore Presbyterian Church, Jersey Shore, Pa.
Court agrees that Olivet is and should be God’s steward of property
Posted Friday, March 12, 2010
God is so good! Just wanted to let you know that the judge in the case of the Presbytery of Ohio Valley vs. Olivet EPC has ruled on every count in Olivet’s favor! We’re still unpacking the implications and anticipating an appeal, but rejoice in God’s provision. We are broken-hearted that we were taken to court and pray that this whole situation not reflect negatively on the Christ and His Church.
We are grateful for the verdict that the court agrees with what we had understood from the beginning – that indeed Olivet has always been and should continue to be God’s steward of this property. We are also grateful for the prayers and encouragement of our brothers and sisters throughout the country who have been following these developments. We do pray for healing for those who have been hurt in any way through this disagreement, and look forward to fulfilling God’s purpose for us in ministry.
Pastor Dave Mills Olivet Evangelical Presbyterian Church, Evansville, Ind.
Jesus did not comment specifically about homosexuality
Posted Friday, March 12, 2010
Reply to Tom Hobson in the 4 March letters.
Jesus did not comment specifically about homosexuality. In Luke and the parallel passage in Matthew, He used the Greek word ‘porneia’ which is usually translated “fornication.” This of course refers to any sexual activity outside of marriage between a man and a woman.
Pete Simpson Bloomington, Minn.
OneByOne speaks the truth in love powerfully, humbly
Posted Friday, March 12, 2010
Thanks Kristin for this loving and clear response to Ray Bagnuolo’s article. Ray emailed his article to many in Hudson River Presbytery, where he was approved for ordination in 2005, two days before our presbytery met. On Jan. 14 Hudson River Presbytery voted 50-3 in favor of gay marriage (i.e. to amend the Book of Order’s language to define marriage as also being between persons of the same gender), 49-3 to delete G-6.0106b, and 48-5 to re-write G.6.0l06b into something that no longer specifically addresses the gay ordination question. At this meeting of presbytery, I was literally the only person who spoke out against the amendments. It is truly a lonely world in this presbytery.
I tried to reach you, Kristin, by phone the day before our presbytery met but felt great reluctance in revealing to you Ray’s article because of its inflammatory and hateful tone, as well as its inaccuracies and slanderous nature. Again, thank you for your graciousness and Christ-likeness.
There was one person at this meeting on Jan. 14 who repeatedly asserted, during the dialog period and debate before vote, that ex-gay ministries such as OneByOne have been “proven repeatedly” to lead homosexuals to commit suicide. This person did not cite sources or statistics specifically but I am sure you are familiar with the argument. Would you please consider writing on this topic, too, and perhaps offer another factual and loving response?
I would like to encourage everyone who reads The Layman to consider financially supporting OneByOne. There is no other voice in our denomination that addresses the homosexual issue and “speaks the truth in love” so powerfully and humbly. The ministry needs additional funding so it can keep Kristin full-time.
Dr. Allen Kemp OneByOne founding board member
Same-sex marriage helps reduce population
Posted Friday, March 12, 2010
Re: “Same-sex marriage hurts everyone”
I disagree with the February 2010 premise that same-sex marriage hurts everyone. On the contrary, over-population being the source of most countries’ ills, it helps reduce population. Also, I recall learning in college (WSU) biology that it is a natural behavior when over-population becomes a factor and we certainly have that.
Also, in this country there are hospital rights and inheritance rights afforded a spouse that would not be allowed a life-long partner. I think the whole issue is one of learning tolerance. Let God be the judge.
Nancy Ogden St. Petersburg, Fla.
Commentary leaves me a little puzzled
Posted Monday, March 8, 2010
In sharing and teaching the concepts of Christianity, we often find ourselves caught between two Biblical passages, dealing with tension of seemingly conflicting messages. Your commentary “Reality check” paints the airport picture that many of us have also experienced.
Did you really mean to say that even though we have our “eternal ticket” in hand, making the trip is totally dependent on our efforts? Is it true that the passage about the widow and the missing coin is not part of your commentary? Is it true that the passage about the shepherd with 99 safe sheep but one missing animal is not part of your commentary? While it is true that the captain of the airplane is not going to climb out of the cockpit and scour the airport looking for me because I am firmly planted in Gate 42, your commentary leaves me a little puzzled about our theology.
Maybe the theology of “Reality check” sheds some light on why The Presbyterian Lay Committee is so focused on some issues that other Presbyterians do not find equally compelling.
Vernon Kuehn
PCUSA’s investing policy is concerned with justice
Posted Monday, March 8, 2010
“The Presbytery of Great Rivers is an example of the ‘brothers and sisters’ who could be hurt by the action. Great Rivers has presented a statement of impact, which was shared with the General Assembly Mission Council for its meetings this week in Louisville, Ky. Among its concerns are that Caterpillar does not make products that meet the criteria for divestment and that many members of its churches are directly linked to the company in some way.”
Current PCUSA policy states that we choose not to profit from military, tobacco, gambling, firearms, etc. Our socially responsible investing policy is concerned with justice, not whether or not the corporations involved employ church members, who should be calling for their company to abide by American law (such as the Foreign Assistance Act, which the United States doesn’t enforce in regard to Israeli human rights abuses) and international human rights law.
It was Methodists and Presbyterians who work for Caterpillar who encouraged their churches not to divest in 2008, and Caterpillar sounded like they were finally ready to engage our Mission Responsibility Through Investment committee. The last two years has shown that Caterpillar wasn’t really interested in changing their policy, and seek to continue to allow their products to be used to construct the Separation Wall, destroy Palestinian homes (24,000 since 1967) and uproot olive and fruit trees (1.5 million since 1967), all acts that previous GA’s have spoken against. We have sought to engage Caterpillar for over five years now. At their last annual meeting, Caterpillar CEO Jim Owen, told the body: “If you don’t like how CAT does business, you don’t have to hold your shares.”
PCUSA statements over the last six decades have called for a just peace, but some groups portray our stances as being biased if they don’t bless Israeli control over the whole region. The church has been neutral long enough. Now’s the time to act.
Rev. Will McGarvey Community Presbyterian Church, Pittsburg, Calif.
‘Human-made’ can only apply to the confessions, not Scripture
Posted Monday, March 8, 2010
RE: Loren Golden’s letter to the editor, posted March 4, 2010
Though I am not a member of Heartland Presbytery, I was involved in writing the text of the overture in question for the session of Northside Presbyterian Church, which was then passed by the Presbytery of Detroit. I am happy to say that it has since been passed by many other presbyteries including Heartland, most recently.
I would like to thank Mr. Loren Golden who recently wrote a letter to the editor in which he expresses concern about a sentence in the rationale of the overture. Mr. Golden perhaps understandably misinterprets what may be a poorly worded sentence, and I appreciate his pointing out the lack of clarity. The sentence I wrote states, “In order to be able to rely on Jesus Christ as its head and its chief guide in all of life, the church must shed any human-made, subordinate source of authority that would bind its ability to follow where our Savior leads.” By “human-made,” I meant to refer only to the confessions, not to Scripture. As the confessions themselves make clear, they (that is, the confessions) are not inerrant or infallible, and when they err, we should follow Jesus. Perhaps naively, I thought it obvious that “human-made” can only apply to the confessions and not to Holy Scripture, which is inspired and therefore not “human-made.” But, evidently the sentence was still unclear anyway and I appreciate the opportunity to clarify the matter.
Furthermore, I would point out that the amendment itself unequivocally states that Scripture is the “authoritative witness” to Christ. In addition, the rationale states, “… Chapter II identifies the church’s confessions as its guides, subordinate to the Lordship of Jesus Christ as revealed to us in Scripture alone.”
Fortunately there are several opportunities to perfect the language of the rationale between now and when G.A. votes to approve it, and I appreciate Mr. Golden’s help in doing so. (Please note however, we do not enact the rationale; only the amendment itself. Nevertheless his concerns should be noted and in my opinion the sentence can certainly be refined.)
I hope that clarifies these matters for Mr. Golden and the rest of your readers. While we may disagree about the overture itself, we do agree that Scripture is the inspired, authoritative witness to the life, death and resurrection of His Son, Jesus Christ, and I would not want anyone to misunderstand my beliefs due to one poorly worded sentence.
Dr. Alan L. Kiste, elder Northside Presbyterian Church, Ann Arbor, Mich.
Mainline denominations not helped by sympathetic judiciary
Posted Monday, March 8, 2010
I just read that the U.S. Supreme Court has refused to hear the La Crescenta (Episcopal) property case. This should come as no surprise. Think about it. When was the last time you met an Episcopalian washing windshields at a traffic light? No, they are usually at the top of the American social pyramid. They become Supreme Court justices. I can well imagine that if the honorable justices subscribe to any religion at all, they are likely to belong to that denomination that is being hurt by parishes bailing out and wanting to take their property with them.
The PCUSA has in the last three years lost 87 congregations, mostly to the EPC. But the PCUSA three years ago had just under 11,000 congregations, so this is a loss of less than 1 percent. So their biggest threat is not the loss of intact congregations; it is the loss of individuals, couples and families voting with their feet and walking out. The average size of a PCUSA church has declined to 200. In the years to come, many congregations will be unable to support a full-time pastor. This has enormous implications for PCUSA seminaries that are cranking out graduates loyal to the party line; they shall graduate into limbo.
Meanwhile, there will be the occasional congregation that feels strongly enough about the state of the PCUSA that they will willingly pitch the keys to the church building to the hierarchs and start meeting at the VFW hall or high school cafeteria.
And think of the PCUSA – and Episcopal – church buildings that in the future will be sold to sects, cults and heaven forbid, evangelicals.
And so in the end the mainline Protestant denominations are not really being helped by a sympathetic judiciary. Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Pewsitter can still leave any time they want to. While the denominational leaders speak cryptically of surfing contests, they are failing to win the hearts of ordinary members.
Larry Brown African Bible College