Posted Wednesday, August 30, 2006
Since the hallmark of our beloved Presbyterian church has always been the infallibility of Scripture, and, having just read the last issue of The Layman, I am so shocked and sick at heart that I have sadly concluded that we have now come to the parting of the ways. I am 101 years old and feel the world as I knew it is shaking at its foundations.
Elsie Swindells
Layman should double its efforts
Posted Wednesday, August 30, 2006
I am far from what could be called “a rabid letter writer.” I seldom stop to take the time to tell others what I am thinking. I think the efforts you have been making in the past few years not only have been worthwhile, but it appears imperative that those efforts be doubled.
In reading all that has transpired recently, I am amazed that the denomination continues to exist. I grew up as a Congregationalist in Connecticut, and I still feel that the basic health and welfare of a congregation rests on that local group. However, of course we are part of the world. We should have interests and concerns – not only about our immediate community, and our town, state and country – but also about what’s going on in the world.
I do question, though, some of what has been going on in the denomination at the national level. I’m sure that the people involved are “concerned citizens.” But I raise the question of whether the national body of any denomination should become as involved with revolutionary revisions of principles which have stood well the test of time, as is apparently the case with our church. I truly hope that no one will feel the need to, say, rewrite the Bible.
Keep up the good work. Your voice is needed.
Herbert E. Baldwin Jr. Frankfort, Ind.
GA ‘has now put into church law what Mount Auburn has been doing all along’
Posted Wednesday, August 30, 2006
I have been reading the letters on this site for several months now, and continue to be amused and amazed. As a gay man who long ago left the PCUSA because the liberal and moderate forces of the church showed themselves to be cowardly and more concerned with their status, prestige, security, comfort and property than with the gospel message of inclusion. In short, they, including the leaders of my former congregation, Mt. Auburn Presbyterian Church in Cincinnati, were liars who betrayed those they claimed to serve. Yet now, I see you conservatives and evangelicals and fundamentalists equally have clay feet. Let’s face it, the only reason for you to now stay in a denomination that you truly believe is apostate is because of your fear of losing property, status, prestige and finances (e.g. pension). What kind of a witness to the radical gospel call of Jesus is that?
Lest there be any doubt about what the liberal cowards in the church think was accomplished by the backdoor tactics employed at the General Assembly, let me share this from the recent newsletter of Mt. Auburn Presbyterian Church:
- “The good news from the General Assembly for Mount Auburn is that the denomination has now put into church law what Mount Auburn has been doing all along: Calling people to church office on the basis of the totality of their gifts. The difference, and the bad news, is that church law now says you can overlook unrepentant homosexual practice in calling people to ministry. To the contrary, 15 years ago, Mount Auburn refused to discriminate to begin with. In fact, we have sought to balance the membership of our boards between gay and straight, as gay and straight are balanced within the body of Christ. So two years from now we shall be back at the General Assembly and then the General Assembly after that until the General Assembly gets it right. In the meantime, we can be much more confident that there will be no legalism or church litigation from complaints to distract us.”
So basically, the conclusion is that the express and explicit language of your PCUSA constitution is meaningless and has no legitimate legal authority. How can you live in a denomination that believes that, even for the sake of your property, status, prestige and finances? Somehow, that does not seem consistent with the gospel call of Jesus.
Jack B. Harrison Cincinnati, Ohio
Appalled at the apostasy of PCUSA hierarchy
Posted Wednesday, August 30, 2006
Since the church in which my membership resides, albeit inactive, does not subscribe to The Layman, I have been getting my daughter’s second-hand copy. I would appreciate receiving The Layman on a regular basis.
I am appalled at the apostasy into which the PCUSA has fallen at the hands of the hierarchy. I grew up and was strongly nurtured in the faith when my church upheld the Scripture. At this point, I hesitate to acknowledge I was a Presbyterian. In the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, I pray that those who say they believe will have the intestinal fortitude to finally get out and make their stand. It is long overdue.
I congratulate Shannon Meador. She has more courage of her convictions than the evangelical pastors.
Louise R. Mohr Matteson, Ill.
Are the ‘Great Ends’ unraveling?
Posted Wednesday, August 30, 2006
Under its preliminary principles, the Book of Order lists “The Great Ends of the Church.” These are: The proclamation of the gospel for the salvation of humankind; the shelter, nurture and spiritual fellowship of the children of God; the maintenance of divine worship; the preservation of the truth; the promotion of social righteousness; and the exhibition of the Kingdom of Heaven to earth. The actions of the General Assembly and the whole church, as reported by The Layman, seem to me to have only a vague connection to these “Great Ends.” Am I missing something?
D.G. Cratch Oxford Furnace, N.J.
As evangelicals in the PCUSA it is every man for himself
Posted Wednesday, August 30, 2006
Like many others I have been following the aftermath of the 217th General Assembly and the decision of some churches to immediately separate from the denomination. And while I agree with Tom Gray of the Kirk of the Hills Presbyterian Church that many more churches may be preparing for such a move, I have to strenuously object to his comment: “For those who stay with the denomination, it is a tacit, yet conscious, affirmation of the denomination’s departure from the truth.”
Rev. Gray has no right to make this kind of judgment! With 1,500-1,600 people in worship, Rev. Gray can afford to make such statements. If they lost their property tomorrow (which I most surely hope does not happen), my guess is that those 1,500-1,600 faithful believers would be more than able to provide adequate manpower and resources to begin again in a different locale. Not all churches have that luxury.
A few years ago, I chaired an administrative commission in Scioto Valley Presbytery working with a church seeking dismissal to another Reformed denomination. Although the dissenting party eventually decided to leave without any property, there was a great deal of concern about how this 235-member church could begin again when the presbytery could conceivably fight them for every paper clip. Small churches generally do not have the resources of larger churches, and so to make off-handed remarks supposing to know another church’s stand when it comes to the one truth of Jesus Christ, is just plain arrogant!
I wonder if Rev. Gray and the Kirk of the Hills Church (and other mega churches) would be willing to set up a legal defense fund to assist smaller churches contemplating the same decision?
I wonder if Rev. Gray and the Kirk of the Hills (and other mega churches) would be willing to set up a fund to help dissenting ministers feed and clothe their families after they’ve been stripped of their Presbyterian ordination and are removed from their churches.
I wonder if the big churches would be willing to counsel and equip smaller churches in the ugly battle brewing ahead with many presbyteries? If not, then Rev. Gray has no right questioning any church which does not immediately follow their lead.
One of our biggest problems in the evangelical wing of this denomination is that we all act independently. We have so many renewal organizations (Presbyterians For Renewal, The Presbyterian Coalition, New Wineskins, Presbyterian Global Fellowship …), but no real leadership working to unite evangelicals together in something more than a haphazard church by church response.
So, while I wish Rev. Gray and the Kirk of the Hills Church all of God’s blessings as they undergo this difficult process, his unfortunate comments remind me, yet again, that, as evangelicals in the PCUSA, it is every man for himself!
Rev. Dr. John C. Minihan First Presbyterian Church, Newark, Ohio, (A Confessing Church)
Most of us wouldn’t recognize a new Moses if we tripped over him
Posted Wednesday, August 30, 2006
I would like to respond to Karen Kolbinsky’s plea for a new Moses (Elijah) in the August 29 letters. Actually, I made this point in a letter last week that you chose not to print – I suspect because of an injudicious term at the end of the letter, or because I took the renewal community to task. I’m going to do that again, so maybe this letter won’t be published either. However, my point remains valid.
I hear these calls for a new Moses as a high form of irony. For several years now (back to Indianapolis and even further) there has been a small group of pastors and leaders in the renewal movement who have had the courage to stand out front and call the denomination to account. They have done this at considerable personal and professional cost and risk. They have traveled to Indianapolis, Louisville, Columbus, Richmond, Orlando, Atlanta, Tulsa and Birmingham to witness, preach and pray for this denomination to confess and repent of its apostasy. In Richmond, three of them (Rus Howard, Alex Metherell and Bob Davis) had the fortitude to stand for election in opposition to the entrenched stated clerk. And yet, the professional renewalists didn’t have the guts to endorse any one of these brave men.
For years we have been calling on the combined renewal organizations to set aside their individual agendas and be at least as cohesive and organized as the adversary. That hasn’t happened yet. I despair of it ever happening. A new Moses indeed. Most of us probably wouldn’t recognize him if we tripped over him.
Rev. Jim Yearsley Tampa, Fla.
Confounded by what’s happening in the PCUSA
Posted Wednesday, August 30, 2006
After reading this issue [July 2006], loaned to me, I am confounded by what I read and what is happening to the Presbyterian Church as I have known it for almost 70 years.
Are the General Assembly and the presbyteries headed by a group of 1960s’ far-out druggies and the crazy feminists of today? Whatever happened to the truth that our faith is based on the Holy Bible? I believe that God is the same God of the beginning and forever. The old adage, “If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it,” pertains to the Bible. Leave it alone!
Emma Hart Kensington, Md.
New Reformation needs leadership, not more screed
Posted Tuesday, August 29, 2006
An astonishing trend has begun to manifest itself, not the demise of PCUSA as enthusiasts have vociferously opined, but the very breakup of both renewal and reform! Letters to The Layman Online reveal that we are not seeing coalescence but deliquesence. The New Reformation seem headless. The very organs of uprising now appear dazed and ambivalent about the whole matter. New Reformation needs leadership, not more screed.
Gary Starkey Yakima, Wash.
Comments came from discussion with others disappointed in ‘Ya’ll Come’
Posted Tuesday, August 29, 2006
Jim, [letter to the editor, posted August 28, 2006] I know you are not a bad guy and do not in any way wish to indicate that as my opinion.
My comment re the “smoke screen” evolved from discussions with others in attendance who were dismayed at the “Y’ALL Come” meeting. They had the impression from the Coalition that the meeting was to hear where those attending wanted the renewal groups to lead after the GA. The Coalition in particular, their dismay came from the clear position (not neutral) projected by the speakers from the opening bell that the Coalition was saying and “selling” stay and fight/fellowship. This was not necessarily what a large number of those present wanted to hear. This seemed to many a case of come let us hear, but getting come listen to us and our position.
I wish you had been in the halls and at the lunch/dinner table listening as I was to comments from elders and pastors voicing what I have written. If reporting what I observed makes me a bad guy I guess I have to live with it. My intention was and is, as brothers in Christ we cannot afford to disappoint those we wish to work with. I heard many disappointed voices.
Following the Wednesday night group meetings I heard many positive comments, “our voice has been heard, this is why I came.” When the position of the Wednesday night groups was not reported or discussed, it further seemed that listening was not important. Particularly after reading the posted position statements.
The straw poll taken at the last meeting was after a significant number of the attendees had left and thus not as good an indication as the 400 plus who were in the group meetings Wednesday night.
When an organization signals come let us hear, spends more time on listen to us, then does not discuss the largest sampling of thoughts from those present, the problem is self created.
Robert A. Browne Elder
Congregations won’t give in to Louisville’s lies, threats and intimidation
Posted Tuesday, August 29, 2006
Radio commentator Dr. Laura Schlesinger admonishes young women who say they are engaged to be married that to be truly engaged they must have both “a ring and a date.” Of course she’s right – there often is, in the pursuit of visions and dreams, a long time and a long road between the vision and reality. Without the impetus of a firm commitment, things can and will drag on and on.
So, where are we with the New Wineskins’ vision of a new Presbyterian reality? I think we’re close and I think it’s time to set a date.
Consider this. We’re watching the wheels come off the PCUSA. Let’s face it, if there were no property issue, PCUSA might be not much more than a listing in the Louisville White Pages today. Generally speaking, the evangelicals in the denomination are ready this moment to turn from the darkness and go back to the business of growing a catholic, borderless, international, Christ-centered church of ministers and missionaries, ordained and layperson, in the Presbyterian tradition.
It is almost a certainty that Louisville ultimately will lose on the property issue. They have lost several recent court battles and will continue to lose for three reasons. They will lose because there is ultimately no authority for them to do what they are doing. They will lose because parishioners vote. And they will lose because, no matter which way you examine it, the big denomination trying to take the property away from the little congregation just doesn’t pass the smell test.
Within a few months, this issue will be settled. Mostly, it will be settled because congregations are just not going to give in to the lies, threats and intimidation leveled by Louisville against local churches. They’re going to find that sessions are prepared for them and won’t just roll over anymore. Louisville can’t afford to lose and they’ll soon determine that because they can’t afford to lose, they can’t afford to play. They will then seek a middle ground. I hope that includes returning ransoms, restoring the good names to pastors who did not meet the denomination’s standards for inclusivity, and sharing whatever paltry bank accounts that might exist on a pro-rata basis. Yeah, I know, don’t hold my breath.
So, for all intents and purposes, the decision – the hardest part – is done. We’re on our way. We know where we’re going, we just don’t know when.
I’m writing to ask the New Wineskins to set a date. I’m suggesting that Sunday May 27, 2007, Pentecost, be that date. It is a solemn holiday, a day made precisely for starting churches, for evangelism, for inspiration at many levels, and for communion and communication. It is a date certain. It is close enough to quicken the pulse of those who have prayed for it, and distant enough to allow ample time to organize. I’m also hopeful that other writers will acknowledge their agreement. Don’t we all feel the tug? Can’t we respond?
Let it be Pentecost!
Jack O’Brien Pittsburgh, Pa.
It’s not Christian to accuse honorable people of lying
Posted Tuesday, August 29, 2006
You should read the letter sent to members by the presbytery before you accuse them of trying to identify dissidents. I believe the four people who signed the letter to be honorable Christians. The congregation nor the session has met with the presbytery. The letter indicated that the presbytery wanted an opportunity to answer questions in an open forum.
I would suggest that you write the EOP for a copy. It is not right or Christian for you or others to accuse honorable people of lying. I was a member of Kirk until six months ago.
Kay Ward
PCUSA acts more like the godfather with its vendetta of vengeance
Posted Tuesday, August 29, 2006
“Do you love me more than the secular culture?” “Do you love me?” Do you love me?” This is the question that needs to be asked of their respective presbyteries, synods and the Louisville headquarters of the PCUSA by the Riverside Presbyterian Church (Linn Grove, Iowa), Kirk of the Hills Presbyterian Church (Tulsa, Okla.), Windsor Presbyterian Church (Des Moines, Iowa) the Hollywood Presbyterian Church (Calif.), the “dissidents” (so labeled by the Presbyterian News Service) of the First Presbyterian Church of the Torrance (Calif.) and all other current PCUSA church congregations that dare question their affiliation with the PCUSA.
Our denomination acts more like the godfather with its vendetta of vengeance and omerta rather than God the Father who gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. As Saint Paul warns in Acts: “Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which he purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember …”
Art Montgomery, elder (inactive) Santa Barbara, Calif.
God still is not mocked
Posted Tuesday, August 29, 2006
Earl Apel’s attempt [letter to the editor, posted August 28, 2006] to insert and affirm into the sin debate the offensive language of the Confession of 1967 cannot, must not go unchallenged and uncorrected!
Scripture is not the mere words of men; it is the rev ealed Word of God; and right there is where liberals and Christians completely disagree.
Earl wants us to believe that it is his relationship with God that is important; I totally agree. That relationship must be one of a obedient child with a loving Father. God does not honor what you or I or Earl thinks any more than he did Eve’s wisdom that she got from the serpent. He does not honor our disobedience of the prophets and apostles no more today than he did when he allowed the desert to swallow up those who opposed his servant Moses. What God honors is humble obedience.
I know that liberals hate the apostle whom Jesus called to be his witness to us gentiles Paul. Homosexuals hate him, along with Moses, because he had the boldness to declare what spake the Lord. Liberals hate all of the servants of the most high God, because liberals believe that there is no most high God. So, it will become clear what is one’s relationship with Jesus Christ, the only way to the Father, when one shows or fails to show submission to God and his holy will. That fuzziness will leave you standing, trembling before him!
Not ignoring the elephant in the living room, the issue of whether engaging in homosexual acts is sin is firmly, without equivocation, labeled as sin throughout the Old and New Testaments. It is open to interpretation only on pain of answering to Jesus, the King of Kings; don’t chance it! Dr. Robert Gagnon put together the Bible witnesses’ corporate testimony in his 30 page Power Point presentation. Professor Gagnon further made available on his Web site both the PPT presentation and his no non-sense oral delivery of it. Earl, listen to it, read it; decide do you want to accept their holy witness or continue to accept the witness of people who pretend to be ministers of the Word but are deceivers, leading people away from the joy of godly obedience to the wanton despair of disobedience, vainly praying in their hearts that God will be mocked and there will be no judgment, no punishment.
Jesus prayed for us, sweating blood, that we, who would believe through the Apostles’ words, would be one as he and the Father are one. Stephen, dying from the stoning assault, saw Jesus, not sitting, but standing by the Father. Be not deceived, Jesus still sees the modern stoning of his saints. Woe to any that would harm them and their witness to the little ones! Hiding behind the mantle of an officer in a man-made non-profit Pennsylvania religious corporation will not stay the wrath of God. Not now; not at the judgment bar!
James Logan McHenry, Md.
We need a Moses to fill the vacuum left by fallen leaders in the PCUSA
Posted Tuesday, August 29, 2006
To echo a passionate plea on the part of a member who had attended the conference in Atlanta where Peggy Hedden had opened up the floor for comments, we indeed need a Moses (Elijah?) to fill the vacuum left by fallen leaders in the PCUSA.
What if in answering our Lord chooses to exalt into those powerful positions now void of his Spirit lowly shepherds, carpenters, fishermen and tax collectors? Would this be consistent with what we’ve seen him do through ages past?
Will a western world view of Church as we have embraced it for so long give place to God’s own way of seeing us? Are we in America willing to agree with the God who claims the weakest, poorest and least of all among are chosen by him richest in faith?
Might it be God himself is doing in our own time what has been prophesied by not only Moses but every true prophet and apostle who came after him? Is he not ever speaking to us through his word interpreted and inspired by the same Holy Spirit we cry out for to lead us this day? Are we his church called to collectively show forth his glory in all the earth as we continue preaching the simple good news of a message we’ve been given to share with a lost world?
Our Messiah has come, he died, he rose again. As Peggy Hedden reminds us, we who are faithful to our Lord until the day of his coming will not be ashamed, we will be found standing at his right hand and invited in to receive our reward. What better reward is there for any faithful servant of God, child or holy bride than simply to see his face as we enjoy his presence forever?
The passion of our heart as we his Church throughout all the earth cry together “come quickly Lord Jesus” will bring him quickly to our aid. Men will rise up to fight the good fight of faith behind him, following in the steps of our master. He is “our prophet, priest and king” and we his holy church, a royal family of priests and kings forever.
Karen Kolbinsky Hillsborough, N.C.