By Viola Larson, Naming His Grace blog.
The way presbyteries negotiate with churches seeking dismissal from the Presbyterian Church (USA), I believe, says a lot about how they view the church universal. And this includes the presbytery’s view of the mission of the church. The thoughts I am writing about here came together after listening to the speakers for three administrative commissions at the last Presbytery of Sacramento meeting. Adding to my thoughts was a letter the session of Journey Church, (My church), received from the Presbytery negotiating team.
And let me quickly add that I don’t believe questions about the PCUSA’s view of its mission or its view of the universal church has yet been truly formulated and answered by either my presbytery or the denomination. So here is the background.
At the presbytery meeting first two speakers explained what an AC was doing about two Korea churches who had simply withdrawn from both the denomination and their properties. One church, Capital Korean, now has 49 people worshiping in their church and according to the speaker are in need of healing. They hope to emphasize their youth ministry.
Zion Presbyterian church is consumed with problems. At the first meeting with those who had not left, the speaker stated that 58 people were present but twenty of them were people who wanted to leave but not with the pastor. The situation at this church is troubling to the AC and the presbytery because the church owes a huge debt. As I stated in another posting members of the presbytery wondered if the people who left owned the property and should pay the debt. The report was confusing but it seems as though the Presbytery is acknowledging that the property with the debt is theirs.
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A strategic mission plan, and the commitment to share and implement that plan, do seem to be missing. The only ‘Plan’ I know of in my Presbytery (San Francisco) is to extract as much money as possible from departing congregations, no matter how much damage that causes, and bank the money for some future ‘good’. They acknowledge that the ‘gracious dismissal policy’ no longer exists, and it shows. They tear up as we vote to leave without acknowledging the actions they have taken over the years which forced us to take these drastic steps. And they fail to do the hard work of self-examination to determine why membership continues to decline. By next year the membership of the PCUSA is likely to be 1.5 million, and at that burn rate they will need to merge with another dying denomination soon just to be able to pay administrative costs. Mission? An afterthought at best.
I have a very hard time reconciling the trust clause with Exodus 20:17:
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
You say hard to reconcile with the OT Law, how about Jesus words in John 17, or Paul’s words in Acts or Romans 12, etc. – etc. Whom do you think is doing the coveting here? The people in particular congregations gave of themselves to Christ and the Church. Your problem is you no longer believe the PCUSA is part of the Church – right? BE clear about your accusations…
To be more precise, given the 40 year trend of membership loses of about 3.75-5% per year off the previous year’s base, the end of 2016 number for reported PCUSA membership should be around 1.45 mil. But remember as mortality, death rates accelerate among its core demographic, whites 65+, continued departures of people, churches, and always working off a smaller starting base, by 2020 the PCUSA should dip below one mil. And within 10 years will settle at similar numbers to other non-chrsitocentric sects, Quakers, Unitarians, about 600-700K.
To the other questions, should/will the PCUSA merge with another dying liberal sect. Economies of scale and simple survival dictate such. Whom? Given their episcopal leanings and sensibilities, the ECUSA maybe. Is,should the PCUSA still be considered in the greater Body of Christ? Given their own hubris and arrogance, I am sure they assume as much. But they have assumed group-think, and other institutional practices in centralized planning, such as the current application of the property in trust clause, one would associate with cultist like behaviors. Talk to folks who ever tried to leave the Jehovah Witness or Mormons, similar experiences to those who try to exit the PCUSA in terms of institutional shunning and denial of basic due process and rights.
Wow, I thought I had heard everything under the sun from Peter Gregory, but this tops the cake. Why would you say something like this. You know for a FACT that anyone can leave membership in the PCUSA whenever they want. You (and every elder in the denomination)also know for a FACT that to dismiss a congregation requires a vote of Presbytery. 99.99% of the issues with leaving arise when TEs and REs try to circumvent or work under the table to take out congregations with property using misinformation and scare tactics. To equate the the dismissal process with cult like behaviors is misguided and delusional – paranoid some there Mr. Gregory?
Pres, “To equate the the dismissal process with cult like behaviors is misguided and delusional”
The dismissal process is a joke, all it is is a real- estate transaction designed to insure future employment for a bunch of over-paid presbyters who can’t make it in the real world.
its not a joke to those who have gone through it – your opinion is misguided and bitter in nature. Who do you think gets the settlement money from a dismissal with property? It goes to the Presbytery, the Presbytery as a whole decides what to do with the money. The fact that you think its going to pay salaries of “presbyters” shows your ignorance.
Viola,
The Botton Line
Thank you for exposing the true nature of the PCUSA gracious dismissal policy, but remember that Jesus and St Paul warned us to not be surprised by those who would hate Christians and take our property.
Hebrews 10:34-36 “For you…joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you know that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.”
The bottom line in the state of California as I understand it, is that Journey Church will have to pay to leave the denomination or just leave your property. I hope you have the best attorney you can procure to deal for you, again this is the bottom line in dealing with the PCUSA dismissal policy. “I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves”.
The bottom line is how long do you want to be distracted and in angst? Resolve as quickly as possible what you as a church are going to do so that you may be able to move on. Christians are dying in this world for the sake of Christ, property issues pale in comparison. Interestingly enough, there are good people in the Presbytery who are controlled by the decrees of the PCUSA, pray for them. I pray for your church.
Pres,
do you really think we are all that stupid that we don’t know where the money goes, because we all know it’s NOT going to missions it’s going to keep an over paid and bloated bunch of heretics employed, ignorance, yeah I don’t think so!
Just for clarification – I have not posted on this site for a while – I am a “pres” (not the current “Pres”) who had been on the receiving end of name-calling from pastor gregory on a couple occasions. Not that I have any problem with the comment by this Pres. Apparently according to gregory: Episcopalians, Methodists, Catholics, most Presbyterians – all are cults.
In one of the religious and culture blogs I post I posed a 4 part or 4 actions the PCUSA could do to promote peace, healing and unity.
-Complete removal and repudiation of the property in trust clause.
-Suspension of the next 2 GA cycles (5 years) to allow peace and healing of the body
-Post that 5 year sabbatical, GA should only gather on a 5-7 year cycle.
-Suspension of per capita assessments as means of finance, put all PCUSA agencies on a self-sustaining missonal status. Just like the local church.
-The response from the organized and established entity, silence. Hence they are interested in either rebirth, renewal or reform. Only continuance of their own power dynamic. And they will die because of it. End of story.
Noting the fact that you have declared the PCUSA a non-Christian entity and a cult and that you serve a very, very small congregation with declining membership/attendance that does not pay per capita or otherwise support the denomination or your presbytery, I am shocked-SHOCKED to hear that staff with General Assembly are not leaping to conform to every suggestion you post on your completely obscure blog.
I agreed with you sir.
Greetings CT,
There are two characters on this site who are currently going by the same screen name. “pres” (small p) is, I believe, a pro-PCUSA and totally legit commenter on the site, although he does seem to have some kind of hang-up with Peter Gregory. “Pres” (capital P) is, almost certainly, our old friend “Pres-Child.” He’s stinking up the place in his usual way, and reminding us as he often does how annoying mindless ideologues can be. Cheers.
By the nature of the website, topics discussed, and points of reference, one is to expect all types and emotional, spiritual mindsets. “Laymen” is to be commended in that it does exercise a rather light hand in either editing posts or removing offensive commentary, which is very common on other religious based web sites, where emotion and ideology tends to drive some folks bonkers. Pres-child, Pres, Wonk, who knows, I believe I do press their buttons none the less, and safe to assume I have been removed from their Christmas Card list, oh sorry Festus, or Winter Solstice.
Actually, many presbyteries are investing the funds from the dismissals into mission: http://www.gracepresbytery.org/grace-presbytery-allocates-6-1-million-for-missions-and-ministry/
Yeah, you can thank the HPPC “gift”, what a load of crap.