Thank you Pastor Hector Reynoso. You are not alone. Both the grieving we must do for this arm of God’s church and the stress that extra monetary demand makes on any church without saving a single soul should distress all.
For this and many other issues, we must seek God’s forgiveness as the body we call Presbyterian Church (USA). Jim Clark
Using ‘inclusive language’ makes a mockery of the English language
Posted Friday, July 30, 2010
This is so sickening. Even simply as an English major, I am appalled at the way the insistence upon using “inclusive language” makes a mockery of the English language. It makes a perfectly fluid language become awkward and cumbersome, for no good reason. To have to repeat over and again “God” and “God’s” and “God’s Self” when one could easily simply use the pronouns “He,” “His” and “Himself” where appropriate, and sound much more reasonable and intelligent, is simply ridiculous. Furthermore, as a Minister of the Gospel, I consider it blasphemous. I agree with C. S. Lewis, who stated that God is so masculine that He makes the manliest man on earth seem feminine by comparison. The Bible makes this abundantly clear. Never does Jesus ever refer to God the Father as “mother.” To me, this makes it clear that we are never authorized by Him anywhere in Scripture to do so. The simile of saying that He is like a hen protecting her chicks under her wings, or some such, does not make God feminine any more than the prophetic reference to men acting like women in the midst of birth pangs makes those men feminine. Larry G. Pittman Minister Member of Charlotte Presbytery, Concord, N.C.
Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic
Posted Friday, July 30, 2010
Larry Brown, [letter posted July 26, 2010] has expressed concern about the 21-member-commission, which was created to re-align the boundaries of synods and presbyteries. This apparently is necessary to cut costs as a formerly 4-million-member denomination sinks below 2-million-members. This may prolong solvency for a time by reducing administrative costs.
I see it as akin to re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. It really doesn’t make much difference. In the end, the ship is still going to sink. George Hill Port Allen, La.
We have little or no representation in the Councils of Louisville
Posted Monday, July 26, 2010
Larry Brown (letter to the editor, posted July 22) makes two dire predictions for the future of PCUSA. He makes his case in the most diplomatic of terms.
It is not the 1 percent that we will object to. An extra 1 percent for increased missionary activities would be accepted without much disagreement. From his letter though “… in Latin America, Asia and Africa, Christianity is experiencing an explosive growth …” those are not the places where mission is most needed. It’s here in America where we need to bring people back into the fold, and maybe even bring in new people.
The disagreement is the purpose of the 1 percent. Four times now, congregations have rejected the homosexual agenda, and by this time next year, it will be five times – unless by then they have managed to drive out the remaining conservative congregations.
Brown rightly calls it a tax. Currently, per capita is largely voluntary. As a tax, it will not be. It’s likely that many in the pews will remember an earlier time in our country – when we took rather strong action over “taxation without representation” – and come to realize that we have little or no representation in the councils of Louisville.
He closes with “… and how irrelevant in the grand scheme of things their actions are?” While this may be true, their actions impact all of us. Only time will tell whether the Old Guard can keep its traditions and Bible-centered beliefs, or whether the Avant Garde will succeed in remaking the church in its brave new image. Mike Zorn Santa Ana, Calif.
Can God-given talents be used more effectively outside of PCUSA?
Posted Monday, July 26, 2010
I have to respect Greg Wiest’s [letter to the editor, posted July 19, 2010] determined attitude to, as he put it, “dig in where you’ve been placed and remain faithful in the hopes that God might renew our church and nation in future generations.” While I respect it, I don’t understand it.
Allow me to explain my unique perspective. I came to this denomination reluctantly nine years ago. I had to become a PCUSA minster of the Word and sacrament in order to pastor a PCUSA church that wanted me. Despite the fact that I was already ordained by a large, Canadian denomination, have a terminal degree (theology) from Cambridge (yes, that one), published numerous articles and even written Sunday school curricula, I willingly submitted to the dreaded “tests,” which I passed. I assume had I been gay, bisexual, transgendered or otherwise confused, instead of just being Canadian, they might have waived the tests. I say all that to say that I dutifully submitted to the governing authorities, even though I felt, well, somewhat ridiculous doing so. I am not by nature a rebellious, confrontational guy. I simply love God and His Word and really have a blast pastoring a wonderful congregation.
Now, I was familiar with the PCUSA while living in Canada, and even as far back as a decade ago or more they provided your neighbors to the north with a glaring example of the destruction liberalism (both theological and political) inflicts upon a body of believers. I can honestly say that had the fine folks of my church not wanted me, there is no way I would have considered aligning myself with such an off-the-wall denomination.
Every time the GA meets, I have to waste my time defending their decisions to my extremely conservative congregation. To be honest, I’ve had it; defending the indefensible has worn me out, and here is where I part company with Greg and those who are desperately seeking and praying for some sort of revival or renewal within the PCUSA: If this were the only Presbyterian denomination in America, then fighting for it would be worth every effort. But there are so many fine, respected and Biblically sound Presbyterian denominations out there! Does it make any sense to try and save something gone so far astray as the PCUSA? No church has a corner on the truth! The true church of Jesus Christ is so much larger than any of man’s puny organizations.
The ripe fields mentioned by our Lord are expansive and desperately in need of faithful men and women to work in them. At some point, we all have to ask ourselves if our God-given talents wouldn’t be better utilized if we parted company with the PCUSA. Have we reached the point where those five letters have become an albatross around our necks? I don’t know if you have; I am not sure if I have. One thing I am certain of, however, is that coming up with reasons for staying is getting harder and harder, while the GA is extremely generous in giving me reasons to leave.
Dr. Mike Porter, pastor Norton Presbyterian Church and Learning Center
New 21-member commission could manipulate presbytery votes
Posted Monday, July 26, 2010
I’m concerned about the creation of this 21-member commission that has the power to realign the boundaries of synods and presbyteries. It looks very much like a power play that could conceivably neutralize the remaining evangelical voice in the PCUSA. Parker Williamson’s report contained the following:
Some opposition arose on the floor of the assembly, primarily from a concern that vesting 21 people with such power was dangerous. The assembly addressed that concern by enacting an amendment declaring that the commission could only act “upon a majority affirmative vote of the affected presbytery or presbyteries or a majority affirmative vote of the presbyteries in the affected synod or synods.”
As I read it, the “affirmative vote” is after the fact. The commission does not need to wait for a request from a synod or presbytery before taking action.
Let’s imagine the following scenario: You have two side-by-side presbyteries that have both consistently voted to retain the present wording of G-6.0106b. However, in one presbytery the vote to retain this wording is always by a wide margin, while in the neighboring one the vote is always much narrower. So the commission takes out some evangelical congregations in the narrow margin presbytery, and puts them into the wide margin presbytery. That way, the wide margin presbytery votes to retain the wording of G-6.0106b by an even wider margin, but now the narrow margin presbytery, stripped of its evangelical congregations, votes to change the wording. Of course, a majority of presbyteries in the affected synod will vote to affirm this change. Local sessions, apparently, have little or no recourse if they object.
Cute, eh? This is an old political device called “gerrymandering.” Conceivably, using this maneuver, the new 21-member commission could manipulate the outcome of any vote on any proposal handed down from the GA to the presbyteries. Larry Brown African Bible College
Unconvinced by arguments made by ecumenical delegate
Posted Monday, July 26, 2010
Ecumenical relations on occasion require a special sort of diplomacy. In some cases, this may involve a desire to maintain a certain open-minded solidarity with Christians elsewhere, even though we may not always agree and especially when we have reason to question the motives and actions of their leadership.
It is in this spirit that the PCUSA maintains a relationship with the Orthodox Church of Belarus, a church whose leadership has a cozy relationship with the Dictator Lukashenko and as a result gains many privileges. Under Lukashenko, Belarus has been a land of serious and ongoing human rights abuses including the banning of trade unions, the suppression of free speech and press freedom, the oppression of minorities, rampant anti-Semitism and so on. Homophobia is a particular issue in Belarus, where within the past months a gay pride demonstration was met with state violence and the arrest and severe beating of participants. Freedom of religion is also a serious issue, with the Belarus Orthodox Church enjoying a special privileged relationship with the Lukashenko government while home worship by a variety of protestant groups are banned and some other nontraditional groups are harassed or criminalized. Oppression of Jews often has semi-official connection to both the Lukashenko government and the Orthodox Church, for example through the so-called Orthodox Bookstore or the Orthodox Initiative.
As documented by our state department, writers in the state sponsored press targeting religious minorities have been honored by the leader of the Belarus Orthodox Church. Lukashenko, a man who has on occasion praised Hitler, has been awarded the “Unity of Slavic Peoples” prize by the Orthodox Church.
Carmen Fowler finds a “hopeful witness” to Biblical faithfulness when a delegate from Belarus goes well beyond the normal practice of ecumenical relations and expresses agreement with her criticism of American Presbyterians, making particular note of our discussion of openness to homosexual Christians. In response, I would say that I am unconvinced when these arguments are made by fellow Presbyterians close to home and I am far less impressed to hear them from a representative of a church that quite obviously should be dealing with its own questions of complicity in state-sponsored homophobia and failure to speak to serious abuses of human rights.
David Carothers Harrisonburg, Va.
GA’s benefits action may be the very issue that finally splits the PCUSA
Posted Thursday, July 22, 2010
The 219th GA of the PCUSA levied a 1 percent tax to support gay couples and their dependents. No doubt they believed that no one would miss the 1 percent and that no one could possibly object to such a small amount. They are mistaken. This, rather than gay ordination, may be the very issue that finally splits the PCUSA. Let me explain.
When I was a teenager I had a paper route. At the end of the month I had to go to the homes of customers and collect money for the service – at night. I remember going to large homes in upscale neighborhoods and ringing doorbells. I remember hearing housewives voices, “Oh God! I think it’s the paper boy!” The TV would go off. The porch light would go out. I would find myself standing alone beneath the starry sky. Then the Rottweiler would attach himself to my ankle. I would receive a more generous response at the downscale end of the route, but downscale people don’t become Presbyterians.
A few years later, I was an undergrad in college, working in the toll booth at a major international airport’s parking lot. The deal was, for 0 to 30 minutes you paid 30 cents; for 31 minutes to 2 hours you paid 50 cents. I remember taking people’s tickets, punching it in the punch clock, it would say 31 or 32 or 33 minutes, and me saying, “That’ll be 50 cents please.” I got yelled at. People flung coins in my face. A sweet little old lady yelled, “You sure are cheap!” People would fling down 30 cents and say, “That’s all you’re getting from me!” All that over 20 cents.
The thing that I learned about money is, the more you have, the more important it is to you. Here in Africa I’ve been amazed at the generosity of Africans; people living on less than $2 a day will take up a love offering for me after I’ve preached to them.
And so now I expect that the powers that be at the top of the PCUSA power structure are going to be amazed at the furor that will now ensue over the 1 percent tax to support gay couples and their dependents.
Another issue is the establishment of a 21-member panel that has the authority of a GA to decide boundaries of presbyteries and synods. They now claim that they will only act upon the request of the affected bodies. I think it’s easy to see the handwriting on the wall; a Presbyterian Politburo has been established. The new nFOG increases the power of the higher courts of the denomination and decreases the power of the sessions, making the PCUSA even more of a top-down structure.
I make two predictions for this time next year:
- A majority of presbyteries will have voted to change G-6.0106b and allow uncelibate gays to be ordained.
- The membership of the PCUSA will have fallen below the 2 million mark.
I recommend two books by Philip Jenkins: The Next Christendom and The New Faces of Christianity: Believing the Bible in the Global South. He points out that in Latin America, Asia and Africa, Christianity is experiencing an explosive growth while it recedes rapidly in Europe, North America and Australia. Non-Hispanic whites are already a minority in the body of Christ. And the Global South’s brand of Christianity is very traditional; the precepts of “Mainline” Protestantism are alien and offensive to them. Missionaries from former colonies are now coming to re-evangelize the West.
I wonder if the hierarchs of the PCUSA and other “mainline” denominations realize how marginal they’ve become, and how irrelevant in the grand scheme of things their actions are? Larry Brown African Bible College
The Bible says gay ordination is wrong
Posted Thursday, July 22, 2010
The only way out of this gay ordination situation in the PCUSA is to make a stand on the Bible which is supposed to be our infallible rule for faith and practice. It has been studied and discussed and voted upon over and over since I was ordained in 1976 and it will continue to be until it is accepted or is stopped permanently. We just need to rule that the Bible says it is wrong and the Bible does not change and God does not change. It will be thrown out if brought up again because it’s a done deal. We stand on God’s infallible, unchanging Word. The question is settled forever and ever. Amen. Daniel Patterson, pastor Chenoa, Ill.
The liberals have the PCUSA in a vise grip
Posted Thursday, July 22, 2010
Regarding Greg Weist’s letter of July 19, he is right, of course. But his observation of a “fundamental shift” in the Presbyterian Church (USA) comes at least 30 years too late. To many of us who entered conservative local congregations in the PCUSA having grown up in evangelical traditions, it was obvious what had already been going on at the national level for decades – that where it really counted, the liberals had the denomination in a vise grip. They were glad to take the monies of conservative and evangelical parishioners to fund spiritually meaningless expenditures like the Washington office, and they got away with it because they were shrewder, better organized, more persistent, yea, more committed to their cause than the evangelicals. They have worn the pants in the denomination for almost as long as the oldest living Presbyterians have been around. But many of us were willing to look the other way as long as our local congregation was orthodox and intact.
Now Weist is grieving over the actions of the 2010 GA. I ask him: Was there really any doubt in your mind – in anyone’s mind – than an overture to modify ordination standards would succeed at General Assembly? It’s become the norm.
Evangelicals are in the minority? Today, even among the broader “evangelical” population, true evangelicals are in the minority. Few pew dwellers understand, and fewer can articulate, the essentials of evangelical orthodoxy or even the path to salvation. They really don’t know “what they are.” All they know is what church they attend. Biblical and theological illiteracy is getting worse, and the church is at fault. (This is pandemic across the American Church, not just the PCUSA.) Start working on that problem at the local level, and there might be hope someday of the evangelical cohort making headway in the national witness of the PCUSA .
The “stay, fight, win” strategy is impractical? Hmm. What was your first clue? It was never even a strategy. The problem isn’t that evangelicals don’t deserve to win; it’s that liberals will not lose. They have controlled the infrastructure of power for a century, it’s what they do best and they will not give it up. It seems to be, before anything else, what they most care about. Sure, the conservatives among Southern Baptists reasserted dominance in their denomination, but they had men like W.A. Criswell, people with moxie.
We must connect with one another? By all means! That option has always been open to evangelicals in the PCUSA, but there hasn’t been sufficient sustained enthusiasm for it. There are maybe a dozen organizations doing good work along this line, but I have yet to see signs of critical mass.
I know, it’s easy for me to make these pronouncements. While I love in many ways the ethos of Presbyterianism, the PCUSA is not in my DNA. Today I see it as just another religious organization that has lost its way. I think of the people who were born to it, who have given their lives to it, thinking they were part of a broad and important movement of God that would, en masse, make a difference for the Kingdom. Instead, they spend their time worrying about whether the church they call home will submit to basic Biblical authority, the threshold requirement for even qualifying as a church. My heart aches for them. Tom Johnson Lincoln, Neb.
PCUSA is attempting to honor two very different gospels
Posted Tuesday, July 20, 2010
Well, GA has once again met, this time with mixed results. No gay marriage, nor resolution against Israel but for the sixth time voting to ordain homosexuals. Guess we can count on that each time GA meets. Unfortunately the presbyteries come closer to approval each time.
As has been noted over the years, the PCUSA is attempting to remain whole, while at the same time attempting to honor two very different and divergent gospels: One Gospel from the Bible and a more progressive, politically correct and user friendly gospel that uses the Bible when convenient but is devised by man. The PCUSA exerts tremendous energy fighting back and forth between the two. That energy could be used more effectively reaching out to the unsaved. I know that there is little support from ordained ministers for splitting the denomination but wouldn’t each side be more effective going their own way? Together our denomination presents a very poor picture of Christianity as evidenced by the large numbers of departures of members and congregations. We are a dying organization more interested in social issues than being faithful to our Lord. There are many faithful PCUSA congregations but their message is being drowned out by the progressives.
Each year that GA meets I wonder why a proposal to eliminate the property trust clause is not presented. The chance of passing would be slim but it should be presented. It is past time for the renewal groups to come together and offer a unified approach to solving the serious problems within our denomination. Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C.
PCUSA’s view of Scripture is like comparing apples and oranges
Posted Tuesday, July 20, 2010
I put the following forth as a legitimate question: When does an issue cross the line from a discussion/disagreement on theology and become simply a political volleyball? Let’s be real about all these questions and “dialogues” related to ordination standards and the definition of marriage. When there is little agreement on the authority of Scripture and/or the person and work of Jesus, how can we then have a theological debate? We are forever frustrated when the conversation is stalled because we have no common ground. Our view of Scripture is like comparing apples and oranges and the “dialogue” stops there.
If we want to have legitimate “dialogue” then let’s at least admit that we cannot and will not find common ground in our theology related to these matters. Let’s be honest about the fact that we have crossed the line into the realm of politics where the rules are very different. For example: In the realm of politics it is very possible (and is done regularly) to vote against something you are in favor of in order to bring about your greater concern and vice-versa. After all, the end game is the most important factor, not how we get there.
So, what is the ecclesiastical end game for evangelicals within the PCUSA? To continue this interminable “dialogue?” To continue to minister in this craziness until “they” “force us to do something we find deplorable?” Act as congregationalists? Etc.
Let me suggest that we stop this insane/inane “dialogue” related to our differing theologies. Let us call this what it is and make decisions accordingly. Bill Little Mt Vernon Community Church, McKeesport, Pa.
Political labels are dangerous in a faith community
Posted Tuesday, July 20, 2010
Once again we see an unclear message presented by well-meaning (and even otherwise well-grounded) individuals.
Greg Weist in his letter “A fundamental shift has taken place in the PCUSA” on July 19, describes the condition of the PCUSA as having moved from being “a mostly moderate to conservative” church to being a “moderate to liberal” church.
In an otherwise excellent letter, on this one point Greg muddies the waters. Political labels are applied dangerously wherever they are used, but I expect the danger is greater when we attempt to use them in the faith community.
The question is not one of a political position or of applying some sliding scale to the questions of faith and doctrine.
Does Jesus offer us a sliding scale? Or does He present us with clear choices? One is either faithful to Christ, His Word, and His calling or one is not. I’m sorry, Greg, but this is very black and white. A very pointed citation is found at Matthew 12:30. I so strongly suspect you did not intend otherwise.
So, my thanks to Greg for a useful letter, but, please, my caution as well: keep the terminology consistent with the real issue at hand: faithfulness to Almighty God, His inerrant Word, and His blessed Son. In these things there can be no compromise or moderation. And “liberality” is used to mean “generosity.” Paul Hubert
A fundamental shift has taken place in the PCUSA
Posted Monday, July 19, 2010
I too grieve over the decision lift up sinful behavior through the round-about strategy of the Board of Pensions decision. I grieve that we will go to battle in the presbyteries over ordination standards. I grieve that there were enough votes in General Assembly to promote these things. And we do need to grieve. But after we grieve, we need to understand that a fundamental shift has taken place in our denomination, the PCUSA. We’ve crossed that line from being a mostly “moderate to conservative” church to being a “moderate to liberal” church. As Biblical evangelicals we are officially in the minority. One friend of mine predicts that will probably not see an evangelical moderator of GA again in our life time. I think he is right.
So what must we do?
- Acknowledge that we are in the minority. We must recognize that the erosion of our denomination will continue and that our presence at GA is mostly for damage control.
- Our strategy of “stay, fight and win” is impractical, the wolf is already in the door and many of our evangelical colleagues have departed.
- We must connect with one another. Evangelical conservatives must band together and put aside our differences. We must learn to be the church in an organization where Biblical values have been set adrift. We must focus on building strong churches and doing evangelism with fellow Presbyterians who are in spiritual darkness.
In short, we must be the church in occupied territory and settle in for the long haul. Our struggle with Godlessness is simply a microcosm of the greater American culture which is unraveling before our eyes. So dig in where you’ve been placed and remain faithful in the hopes that God might renew our church and nation in future generations. Greg Wiest, Member of the Biblical Presbyterian Network Glade Run UP Church, Valencia, Pa
The stream of GA proclamations show a lack of common sense
Posted Monday, July 19, 2010
Given the decline of Presbyterian Church (USA), I wonder why anyone in America should care one whit what the generally, ultra liberal, wishy-washy majority members of the General Assembly think about the war in Afghanistan, the general war against terrorism, or the conflict between Israel and Palestine? The arrogant, self importance of these GA members, (well meaning or not) is beyond belief. The constant stream of proclamations from that body are evidence of flawed thinking and a lack of common sense. This reminds me of the peace movements during the 1950’s that proposed a peach march in Moscow that would somehow convince the Soviet’s to change their evil ways and be nice. Does anyone remember Neville Chamberland? Kenneth W. Long