By Mateen Elass
The PCUSA Office of the General Assembly has been quite busy the last few days, issuing public statements calling on all sorts of people and institutions to act with regard to the atrocities in Mosul, Iraq, and the lethal conflict between Israel and Hamas. These are matters about which I know something, and so may comment in days to come about the content of these statements.
My motivation for blogging today, however, stems from the increasing reports of harsh and unloving actions taken by numerous presbyteries of the PCUSA against congregations seeking to follow the Spirit’s leading by peaceful departure into denominations where they seem to be a better fit for effective ministry in the Kingdom of God.
While the General Assembly leadership seems to feel well-qualified to tell others how they should clean up their acts to accord with “progressive” notions of justice and dignity, they are decidedly silent concerning matters within their own metaphorical house. Since the Scriptures tell us that “Judgment begins with the household of God” (1 Pet 4:17), it would behoove the Louisville leadership to address its own denominational nastiness, so as not to be guilty of hypocrisy and worse.
Read more at http://mateenelass.wordpress.com/2014/07/24/my-statement-released-to-the-oga-practice-what-you-preach/
39 Comments. Leave new
Of course the PCUSA is silent on matters of its own management of “in-house” issues. Generating statements telling everybody else how to live, conduct their lives, do and act as all march to the progressive utopia of rainbows and ponies for everyone is a risk free exercise on the OGA part. They, like any political party, which they are, only speak to its partisan base, whipping up the faithful, much like negative campaign adds close to an election day. Easily done and no risk.
On matters that really count with Louisville, money, power, institutional survival, impositions, confiscations, denial of individual rights, serve one purpose, money and power. And on that matter they will not yield one inch. Have been to my fare share of GAs over 30 plus years, Riverside Dr. NYC Witherspoon Dr. KY does not matter. have found most denominational functionaries to be imperial, nasty, entitled, rude. Convinced of their own moral superiority to the common folk. They are what they are.
You’re right, for another example the Twin Cities presbytery is jerking around with Christ, Edina, etc. That should have been wrapped up a year ago. The presbyter is slow-playing them, hoping they will give up. All it’s done is give Christ Pres. more resolve to leave. God Bless Them.
You’ve left. Good-bye. Now go.
Mr. Bowie,
Though I have left the PCUSA, I have not left Church’s church universal, so the behavior of the leaders of the PCUSA is still a concern of mine for the sake of the glory of God. I will continue to follow and comment upon egregious actions of such leaders unless and until they declare that they and the denomination no longer wish to consider themselves Christian. If you can assure me that that’s the case, I will be glad to cease my writings about the PCUSA.
Poor Mateen;
Needs to have an adversary to rail against. Suggest a reading of Matthew 7: 3-5.
amen
Very good article…
Unlike the rest of us, Pastor Mateen’s church paid for their beliefs to the tune of over half a million dollars to speak on this site, Just so happens that he’s right.
I’m NOT proud of my denomination right now. I’m staying put because God has not released us.
Suggest you try to attain the maturity to stop trolling.
It is interesting how many commenters and now a blogger on this site say they left the PCUSA years or a few years ago. If you got a divorce, don’t expect to be invited to Thanksgiving dinner. If you really left then leave. Shake the dust off your feet and go your own way and leave us alone.
It is a biblical instruction to speak out against injustice, but for too many this becomes liberal political stance. Baloney. It is why we spoke out on equality for women, civil rights for minorities and tending to the poor.
I look forward to the “expertise of Mr. Elass on the situation in Israel and Gaza. But not with much hope for insight.
This is a web site by, and for, conservative Presbyterians. It is you who should go — away from this web site and to one more suited to your sensibilities, such as pcusa.org.
Otherwise, you are being a troll — something that’s unfortunately becoming more common here.
Bemused,
“If you got a divorce, don’t expect to be invited to Thanksgiving dinner. If you really left then leave. Shake the dust off your feet and go your own way and leave us alone”.
Really Bemused?…Really..Divorce? The spouce goes and whores themselves. Then the offended party wants out, but has to pay the bills for the offender. Read Moasic Law, oh yeah you can’t because your ilk threw Israel under the bus!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry to disrupt your echo chamber…
“expertise of Mr. Elass on the situation in Israel and Gaza. But not with much hope for insight.”
Again,in Gaza, the Christians’ are being told ,convert or leave…..hmm they leave, usually everyting. Bemused.
Bemused,
Mr. Elass’s congregation paid $510,000, in what some view as extortion, to the PCUSA. That gives anyone in that church the right to express their opinions.
Jim Bowie,
Just wondering if the extortion contract that was forced upon Mr. Elass’s congregation ordered him to silence….
If not, it’s still a free country and he’s legally permitted to speak on topics of religion.
Jim,
In your antagonistic mode, I can’t tell if you’ve finished reading verse 5: “…then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.”
By suggesting that Mateen is out of step with these three verses, you’ve implied that he is guilty of judgmental hypocrisy. But you seem then to go still further, rejecting Jesus’s own suggestion that the self-critical Christian may come to be of help to the speck-suffering brother.
I would also invite you to read Matthew 7:6: “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine…” Do you suppose that Jesus, here, is talking literally of dogs and pigs? Clearly, this is a command to exercise good, appropriate judgment–especially with holy and precious things. Mateen appears to me to be trying to exercise such judgment–and he is rightly calling out harsh inconsistencies that are being perpetrated under a banner of religion.
conservative Presbyterians is an oxymoron.
there are countless souls here trying to save other souls from eternal damnation, the ultimate act of charity, which begins at home.
those who are too stubborn, hell bent or mind blocked to listen i suggest you stop judging others, you’re only hurting yourself.
i’ve only been on this website for one month, not long, the Bible verse that keeps coming to mind is another one about dogs, returning to their vomit.
there’s absolutely no transparency here about who is on this site or what their agenda really is. i believe it’s all about the money, in one form or another, Presbyterians are generally well compensated for whatever charity work it is they think they’re doing in the name of humanitarian aid. and that includes the free publicity, networking benefits, for their businesses.
i wish i’d kept track of the number of times my posts have been blocked in the past month that i’ve been on here. at least a half dozen times. and these are not inflammatory comments, simple Biblical truths. based on that alone, the fact that this site is heavily edited to please the staff, it’s highly unlikely that any of what’s going on here is pleasing to God, who is all truth.
“Of them [false prophets and teachers] the proverbs are true: ‘A dog returns to its vomit,’ and, ‘A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud’” (2 Peter 2:22).
The dogs and swine here are representative of those who would ridicule, reject, and blaspheme the gospel once it has been given to them. We are not to put forth the gospel of Jesus Christ in the direction of someone who has no other purpose than to trample it and return to his own evil ways.
We identify such people through discernment, which is given in some measure to all Christians (1 Corinthians 2:15-16).
This conversation is a little intemperate for my taste but Mr. Elass makes an insightful point that PC(USA) leaders sanctimoniously call for peace and justice around the world while declining to address harsh, un-Christlike behavior in their own presbyteries. Congregations being badly treated by vindictive presbyteries can take some solace from what’s going on in the Episcopalian denomination (ECA) which is losing a large number of churches and is seizing most of those churches’ buildings. Strict enforcement of the property trust clause has been a financial disaster for the ECA which has spent $30 million on legal fees, utilities, insurance and maintenance on empty buildings and subsidizing tiny, successor congregations where the ECA tries to save face by starting a new congregation in the building. Meanwhile the evicted congregations haven’t missed a beat doing vibrant, high impact ministry in all manner of alternative buildings. More PC(USA) congregations should follow the example of the Episcopalians and just mail the keys to the presbytery. Let the presbytery suffer the cost and well deserved humiliation of an empty building.
Pastor Elass seems to have some anger issues. Little in his writing is grace(ious) or forgiving. His leaving the PCUSA is a good thing. His statements about the leadership are abhorrent and non-Christian. How did he ever get ordained? You left and that means you gave up the right to criticize and complain. Just go away.
Pastor Elass statements are correct, I’m progessive on some things, but the way that churches that want to leave are being treated is terrible. If the pastor’s church left without paying a cent, I might see your point, even still the leadership in Louisville is sitting back and letting these presbyteries just violate them for money. As far as I concerned This Pastor’s experience cost over half a million dollars to his church. Keep speaking Pastor.
And Bemused, get a life.
Bemused, Mr. Elass has well thought out sincere opinions. You, on the other hand, are an associate of the liberal elites in Louisville who think it’s ok not to feed or clothe a baby who survives an abortion.
Dear Bemused,
Let me try to clear up your bewilderment, at least on this issue. As I mentioned to Mr. Bowie in an earlier comment, though I have left the PCUSA, I have not left the universal Church of Jesus Christ. As such, the actions of a denomination that reflect poorly on the reputation of Christ do impact me, and I claim every right to point out such matters, even though I am not directly implicated. Secondarily, the fact that I remain Presbyterian causes me anger every time another Presbyterian group does something that besmirches the Presbyterian “brand name.” Us “other” Presbyterians are tarred and feathered by those who don’t know better, and really mean to shame the PCUSA for their unbiblical stands.
I could see your position that my statements about the Louisville leadership are “abhorrent and non-Christian”, if they were untrue. Unfortunately, the facts speak for themselves. Grace and forgiveness are extended not to the recalcitrant but to the repentant. When PCUSA executives and presbyteries admit their errors, show remorse for their wickedness, and make reparations as they are able, I will be in the front lines of those blogging with gratitude, grace and forgiveness.
As to how I ever got ordained, I wonder at that too sometimes. It had to have been the grace of God.
Pastor Elass “As to how I ever got ordained, I wonder at that too sometimes. It had to have been the grace of God”
I know what you mean I wonder the same as a ruling elder, but then I was asked to be,twice! I still wonder what they were thinking. Sometimes people do desperate things.
Bemused, if you want someone to go away, why not lead by example and go away from this page?
This unpleasant and not very enlightening conversation is a great example of why the current realignments in the PC(USA) are such a blessing for everyone across the theological spectrum. What a balm in Gilead when everyone is re-positioned so all Presbyterians can pursue the great commission as they understand it unfettered by bickering with each other. The future is crystal clear. The PC(USA) is moving to its rightful place on the far left wing of Presbyterianism. The void in the middle will be back filled by non-PC(USA) Presbyterians (EPC, PCA, ECO). And while the PC(USA) will continue to shrink numerically, it’s entirely possible that Presbyterianism as a whole may recover some of its influence in the culture when all Presbyterians are focused on advancing the cause of Christ rather than contending with each other.
Dear Bemused,
Since you acknowledge that “it is a biblical injunction to speak out against injustice…,” why do you seek to shut down my attempt to do just that with regard to PCUSA denominational leadership? Is injustice okay when it is being done by those you support, but wrong when done by those you dislike?
Don,
Why should not this web site by, and for, conservative Presbyterians??? Who gave you the right to be God??? The apostate pcusa on its way to death and the Lake of fire??? If you
do not like it, get out, shut up, and don’t let the door hit your can on the way out.
How about Presbyterians who believe in the inspiration and authority of the Holy Bible???
John, you’re extremely confused about what I said, and to whom I was saying it. Extremely confused.
read carefully his background in the attached blog site. he is a paid servant of a Presbyterian denomination no longer PCUSA but still under the same brand name, his words not mine, please see below for the exact quote and context. i believe he is worried about his business, i.e as i said before (based on 50 years of experience with Presbyterians) it’s all about the money. period. i’ve lived with this false doctrine my entire life, born and raised by PCUSA family, grandparents. they worship money as a false god, all of them who i have ever known, and that includes many long time family friends educated in a PCUSA college.
whether his comments are correct or incorrect is irrelevant, the problem with ALL who remain under the Presbyterian umbrella of false doctrine is that they are not fully in line with Biblical doctrine, whether they realize it or not. picking and pulling apart his words to try to figure out how far away, it’s a total waste of time. obviously those who are on the Presbyterian path, whatever that may be, are off in left field, lost sheep. let’s try to have patience with these folks, many of them are blind and deaf.
“Secondarily, the fact that I remain Presbyterian causes me anger every time another Presbyterian group does something that besmirches the Presbyterian “brand name.” Us “other” Presbyterians are tarred and feathered by those who don’t know better, and really mean to shame the PCUSA for their unbiblical stands.” Mateen Elass
guest,
I don’t understand why you would come to a Presbyterian forum and spout your knuckle dragging opinions of Presbyterians’. Whether liberal or conservative we proud presbyterian Chrisitans, and, yes God still uses Presbyterians.
Now shoo fly shoo!
John, you’re extremely confused about what I said, and to whom I was saying it. Extremely confused.
Thank you from a Bible believing blood washed forgiven believer in Christ.
Amen to that one, Peter.
Thanks for the correction, Andrew. I had already corrected this on my blog site, but have no control over the Layman site, which copied the opening portion of the blog as it was originally.
I would not say that the “PCUSA is God’s representative institution on earth,” but rather that if it is not already apostate as an institution then it remains a part of God’s people on earth. If it continues to separate itself from orthodoxy in such serious ways in the future, it will become undeniably schismatic, at which time it will be taken off the field of play, so to speak.
to continue to endorse mortal sin, whether it’s homosexual unions, living together in fornication, rejection of the Ten Commandments, murder of the unborn for whatever reason, worship of sports/fame/money/power, spotty (50%) attendance at Sunday church, and on and on…to continue to endorse sin and say it’s not sin is what this organization has been reduced to. pleasing people over pleasing God, in order to preserve financial well being.
it takes two things for God to forgive. one has to ask for forgiveness, it’s not automatic, a given, and one must have a true spirit of contrition, repentance.
almost the opposite, defiant opposition to the word of God, is present in most of the world today. and is especially present in the Presbyterian business. what makes it worse in the Presbyterian case, not only is the organization throwing sin out the window, they’re assuming forgiveness from God, presumption, which is another serious sin. that, i think, is what you’re talking about; assuming that God will forgive for everything, never send someone to hell as long as they simply believe they’ll be saved, which is complete nonsense. more accurately, it’s a flat out lie.
Presbyterians as individuals will be ultimately be held accountable, and more importantly, will all be held accountable for what they are passing on to their children, whether it’s directly in the home, or indirectly via the teachings.
all of this chaos confusion and turmoil doesn’t come from God.
putting one’s faith and hope in a building and it’s human tenants is no different from worshiping false idols made of gold and silver.
there are obviously serious problems in the Presbyterian organization today, problems that date back at least as far as i can remember, almost 60 years. my experience with this organization has been mostly horrific, my memories are not of a loving Christian God filled organization. maybe your experience is different, you are entitled to a free will opinion. as long as this organization continues to deceive my family and friends i will continue to speak the truth in love. if you don’t want to hear it i suggest you don’t read the comments. there are two young children in my family who are wrapped up in this organization, being taught this false doctrine. as long as there is a breath left in my body i will do whatever it takes to speak up to try to protect them.
“But I agree with you – the PCUSA is God’s representative institution on earth.”
Andrew August 1 1:04pm
i assume you are the same Andrew who posted this message.
your own words will be repeated back to you someday Andrew.
something to keep in mind.
we will be convicted by our own words.