By Stephen Herzog, Springfield (M0.) News-Leader.
A church that has 130-year-old roots in Springfield has voted to split with a specific denomination of the Presbyterian Church, citing changes in that denomination’s theological views.
The vote, in which 72 percent of First and Calvary Presbyterian Church members in attendance Sunday voted to separate from Presbyterian Church USA, comes after more than a year of discussion and a recent restraining order to keep the local governing body from meddling with First and Calvary’s operations.
The church’s senior pastor, Andrew Chaney, said the decision was made “because of the denomination’s changing attitudes on the divinity of Christ, the authority of the Holy Bible, and the trend of higher governing bodies to increasingly use institutional power to exert control over local churches.”
First and Calvary, which is located at the corner of Cherry Street and John Q. Hammons Parkway, has been established in its current form since 1930.
The history of Presbyterian churches leaving and joining different denominations is centuries old, but a trend has emerged in recent months of more conservative churches leaving Presbyterian Church USA because it has become lenient on same-sex marriage and gay clergy.
57 Comments. Leave new
” The presbytery, in its letter, said “the tide has turned within the leadership of the congregation. A seemingly few leaders have asserted their desires over the rest of the congregation and against the presbytery.”
Two things here Missouri law favors parting churches, and 2nd of all 72% voted to leave, hardly a close vote, and judging from the presbytery’s response, I would get an injuction too. This is only going to worse across the country, its not about the Gospel with the louisville sluggers, its about the real estate!
WHat has Louisville got to do with this – this is between the church and the Presbytery? Do you have Louisville on the brain? Grand conspiracy theories are not helpful. This pastor and his gang got some folks to show up and vote on an out of order question – your assumption of everyone wants to go is inaccurate, what do you really know about this situation??
Mo Spring you know as well as I do that the louisville sluggers are directing what they want the presbyteries to do to parting congregations, there is no WAY you can be that nieve, or we’re that stupid. Just read some of the Permanent Judicial Commission decisions that came out of louisville. I mean come on!
Sometimes we have to take action to enforce our beliefs. For this church, this was that time.
MO Spring “This pastor and his gang got some folks to show up and vote on an out of order question”
You mean kind of like the illegal AI vote at the last GA, bet you were not complaining then…………
so, now you are the “enforcer of beliefs”? – how do you think that is going to work out for you? Cancel my subscription … I’m tired of your issues…………
again – what do you really know? – do you know anyone at the church or the PResbytery???
Um … its evident that you are no a ‘subscriber’ of the Layman, as the Layman has not published a hard copy edition for quite some time now.
That said, you can self-unsubscribe from any emails that you may be getting by using the link at the bottom of the email.
I can Explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.
relevance to this issue – No
MO Spring, I think I get you, you’re a bitter troll who lives in a state that does not recognize the trust clause. So, am I close?
Did First and Calvary vote to affiliate with the Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians, the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, or yet another denomination? The article neglected to mention it, and I was unable to learn First and Calvary’s new denominational affiliation from a cursory visit to the church’s website.
I noticed that too, maybe ther’re keeping their powder dry, there’s a reason why they got an injunction so fast, they may have had a heads up about the presbytery’s moves, listen anyone who reads the Outlook or the Layman, the pcusa is treading water, and louisville is the one who threw the life jacket over board.
You have no idea what is going on here in this matter – is this your church? read the comments on this article and more to come this was sneak attack and really just a hostile takeover – what is you rinterest???
I am a member of F&C and gladly voted against PC(USA). A survey was taken of the congregation 4-6 weeks before the vote was taken. The outcome was approx 70% for and 30% against PC(USA).
Andrew Chaney and “his gang” did not get some folks to “show up and vote.” Nothing could be farther from the truth. The desire to leave has been simmering for some time. The Louisville Papers, once revealed, were the final straw for me and many others.
I concur with all that Jameas H. has to say.
I think PCUSA is in more serious trouble than we know. Judging from my Midwestern state, many local Pres. churches which were bedrocks in towns of 5,000 to 8,000 population, plus the surrounding rural ag population, have Sunday worship attendance of 45 or less. 40 years ago it was 90-110 in attendance. How many ‘former’ Pr
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
Does anyone remember Hollywood Pres. Church, where the presbytery came in and locked the office doors on the two senior pastors, took over the session, and sided with a minority group. That happened over five years ago, but the atmosphere in some presbyteries shows similar attitudes now in that they side with the minority who want to stay in the PCUSA
rather than allow gracious separation. This creates lack of trust when trust was already waning. The story of First and Calvery is really about a loss of trust.
I believe that presbyteries are divided about how to handle the growing number of churches going into discernment. There is some panic as the plea to stay is being ignored. Some presbytery leaders and Louisville leaders are in disbelief that the “big tent” all inclusive message is being rejected and churches are seeking to leave. They rationalize that straw votes were not taken properly. There are charges that leaders are orchestrating the vote and there is dragging out the process.
There are other instances just like the above scenario.
For the Presbyteries , trying to hold on to their conservative churches is like someone trying to hold water in their hands……the water slowly seeps out of the cupped hands. That is the reality of churches leaving one by one.
Let’s pray for our Executive Presbyters, some who may be caught in the middle. Pray they will start to see the lack of truth telling and Start to understand why churches are in discernment. COM COmmittee leaders hear the truth told by departing churches, so they are without excuse, but the Holy Spirit can work. Executive Presbyters are the ones who need to stand up to Louiville leaders if gracious separation is going to happen or if renewal is going to happen in the PCUSA.
Actually, it was ten years ago, and it served as a warning to Evangelical congregations in the PC(USA) that if they were to hope to escape the hegemony of a belligerent presbytery with their pastors and their property, they would need to seek the protection of a state court injunction.
I personally knew a couple who belonged to Hollywood Pres, they have now gone to be with the Lord, but they told us at the time when Dr.Ogilvie went on to be Senate Chaplain (Dr Ogilvie was also the pastor of First Presbyterian Church, Bethlehem, Pennsylvania before coming to Hollywood Pres) things went down fast and never recovered it was strife in and out, he had kept that church together, and also was an evangelical in a mostly moderate to liberal presbytery.
It’s a whole ball game now, and louisville is calling the shots, make no mistake about it. It will take the more conservative presbyteries to stand up to them.
They have not declared, but I would predict that the Westminster only and local option for women’s ordination components will see them aligning with ECO over the EPC.
Just in case MO Spring doesn’t respond to Robert’s firsthand testimony from inside the congregation, here is my attempt at approximating how he or she would respond:
“What do you know, Robert!? Were you IN the meetings where these things were discussed? You might be in the congregation, but if you voted to leave then you can’t possibly have a fair perspective on these matters. You can claim that this was all “simmering”, but the timing is just a little too convenient for my taste. A new pastor comes in and a church that watched every other major change blow through the denomination is just now voting to leave?
Looks to me like everything I’ve been thinking is just being confirmed, and that if I keep trolling here, I just might attain a measure of self-righteousness (combined in that heady way with my politically and socially-motivated anger at what I consider to be small-minded Conservatism) sufficient to level me up among my peers.
Sorry, went off script towards the end there. It’s hard to stay consistent from inside the other perspective.
Timothy, I believe you are correct. The denomination has probably already passed the point of no return. I suspect because rolls are rarely ever cleaned up with any regularity that a third of the reported membership is already gone to locations unknown never to be seen again. Half the membership is over 65. Infant baptisms are numerically collapsing. Most congregations are too small to afford a full time minister plus staff and also maintain their physical plant.
And the Louisville band plays on…
I follow the disunion movement with an eye to historical interest. While disunion is not uncommon nor is schism rare, what interests me is
the PC[USA} decline, as with all Mainline denominations.
One writer mentioned the Hollywood Presbyterian Church. Once upon a time the congregation numbered over 8000 on roll. A number of distinguished preachers and pastors served the congregation over the years.
Unfortunately, but not unexpectedly, Hollywood PC is in decline. When the Big Steeple churches within the denomination report decline, those in each presbytery and especially in Louisville, need to be on alert and seek explanations for decline.
Simply saying that pluralism or secularism is the cause is insufficient.
And when historic congregations within the denomination want out,
rather than demand ransom, a more through explantion must be sought.
I have several hypothesis to explain the decline. Some explanations go back to the 1910′ and 1920’s and more recently. Lefferts Loetscher’s “The Broadening Church” offers considerable insight into the church struggles in the latter part of the 19th century and through half of the 20th century.
The debates over scripture and its place in the church reveal much of
unrest that surfaces today. The resolution of the unresolved issues of the past, as noted by Professor Loetscher, are much alive today.
I grieve that presbyteries often resort to property claims rather than
an examination of causes. Presbytery ought to be a pastor to pastor and a pastor to churches, not a property seeking entity.
I am familiar with Highland Park Presbbyterian Church, Dallas. Twenty years ago, the congregation voted to split from the PC [USA]. In spite of the high threshold, the congregation nearly left with the property.
When the vote failed, those who wanted to leave did. About 2000 of them became the Park Cities Presbyterian Church.
On the golf course one day, I met a former elder from HPPC. I asked him, “What happened?” The explanation did not shock me. He said one of the presbytery leaders met with the session and threatened to take the property if HPPC moved forward.
That tactless approach poisoned the well. The late Clayton Bell was the pastor. I knew some of the other HPPC staff, a fine group of folks.
Now over 20 years later, HPPC has left but the presbytery wanted $7.5
million in damages. Rather than fight, HPPC paid the ransom and servered all connections with Grace Presbytery.
Failure to act as a pastor to pastors and as a pastor to congregations, great or small, does not increase the appreciation of the contribution of a presbytery to church life.
I also note that HPPC was a former Southern Presbyterian Church. Their beloved pastor Dr. William Elliott was against the union for many reasons. One of which, i imagine, was the trust clause that was
forfeited in order to appease the union that never was or acknowledged.
When a union is effected, more than a vote is required. Pastoral service to pastors and congregations is not something reduced to
meetings but regular meetings with key leadership and ordinary members who want to know what they they is understood and also
their benevolance money is used for serious mission, consistent with that they understand mission dollars to be used for.
As of now, the Louisville apparatus and many presbyteries are doing an inadequate pastor ministry.
The Mainline denominations are dying, as the congregations age.
Moorish – you are so kind to a visitor – here is what I will say: TWO sides to this story – this is a divided church and the rogue actions of the leaders is basically a hostile takeover
http://www.news-leader.com/story/news/local/ozarks/2015/08/21/split-denomination-springfield-church-members-feel-deceived/32109423/
will the people running this site now link to this article???
That’s funny 72% of the rest of the church didn’t seem caught of guard, hmmmmm wonder why.
can you read – 72% of the people show showed up, this is not 72% of the church
Just like every other church vote, not everybody shows up, but don’t come and act like those of us here who read the Layman are abunch of ignorant knuckle dragging idiots either.
There’s no way that many people could be caught off guard, because frankly when I read they broke the “rules” I want to throw up, louisville and the liberal presbyteries change the rules when they damn well please, and I have no doubt that there’s a reason why they got and injunction so fast.
Sorry your side lost, but playing this victim game ain’t washing here. Ye gads this just like with the Presbyterian Church of Stanley same reaction, the ones paying the bills are sick of floating the anything goes crowd.
I read the presbytery is engaged in Bible study with 4 other churches, how in the hell do you have Bible study with people that believe the Bible? Come on really?
“how in the hell do you have Bible study with people that believe the Bible?” — Well, I see you cannot write a coherent Sentence so I just wonder about reading ability
I read the article and this is proof that the divisions in the PCUSA are deep, very deep and the chaos that the GA has created is real.
I hear the same rationalizations about the process and the straw vote in my own church/presbytery which has been going through discernment.
There is complaint that the process was unfair, that they did not get a chance to voice their views and that someone took over.
THERE IS DENIAL THAT PEOPLE COULD FAITHFULLY CHOOSE TO REJECT THE ALL INCLUSIVE ANY BELIEF IS OK MENTALITY.
Let’s not forget that The process is a joint effort by the COM and the session. In the case I am familiar with, the first thing that was said is NO DEBATE. People could say anything in the meetings individually, papers and more papers covering both sides of Stay or Go were made available, but in the end the straw vote was overwhelmingly to leave the PCUSA. It is a straw vote because the session decides and makes the request of the Presbytery and the Presbytery votes to let them go to a reformed body.
Further compounding this process is that COM may not be meeting with session as a whole and one member may give the go ahead for the vote or procedure while another member would not. There is division on COM committees about how to proceed, what the process should be.
Presbyteries are divided, COM is divided, Churches are divided, sessions are divided. Let’s get real…..the PCUSA is divided!
The article you suggest only shows the disillusionment of the hard core PCUSA leaders and presbyteries who blindly think the “big tent” love in
should be acceptable to everyone and the naive thinking that the process is unfair. In reality, many people are fed up with the direction of the PCUSA
and are emotionally ready to leave.
Mo Spring…..you are unwilling to accept the reality of the mess the PCUSA has created which is playing out over and over again in every presbytery and church and session because of the wayward decisions of the GA and Louiville leadership.
I read the presbytery is engaged in Bible study with 4 other churches, how in the hell do you have Bible study with people that DON’T believe the Bible? Come on really?
Mo Spring, is that better?
There’s two sides to this story, and your side lost!
very emotionally ready to leave and kick the rest of us People (they call us heathens or of the devil) to the curb
THis should have been different process –
http://www.jcpresbytery.com/uploads/8/9/4/3/8943859/jcp_letter_to_fcpc.pdf
eVery single person in the church not voting to leave and all people in other PCusa churches in the area don’t believe in the Bible – you are kidding right? if you really believe this that is sad – you already called me a loser, now I do not believe in the Bible Also? If other people i n these new presbyterian groups are like you – count me out
I read the link and thank you for hanging in on the discussion.
I assure you that I do not use the word heathen or “of the devil” to describe anyone. I have good friends who want to stay in the PCUSA. I believe they are called to do so as others are just as called to move out of the denomination.
From reading the link it appears that you feel the injunction and premature vote were Not the best way forward to have discernment.
No matter what is right, good, or just in the discernment process…..it is painful for everyone no matter how the votes and decisions come out.
Anger is a real emotion……and does get us off track some times.
My concern is that the anger is misplaced if it does not acknowledge that the Louiville leadership at the GA is responsible for the chaos we now find the Presbyteries facing. Anyway, that is what I think.
I am very much in favor of churches leaving PCUSA with everything that has been happening the last twenty years. That is definitely my stance….that being said, I think some of you are too hard on Mospring….what First and c did here was a perfect example of the wrong way to go about this. This infortunately is not uncommon in ‘High steeple” churches with very wealthy individuals used to doing things their way unquestioned. Some of these folks have said hurtful and hateful things to fellow church members for simply questioning the procedure. (and have stated “they will say anything they want” to a fellow church member—no matter how vile). Also… unknown (to anyone else) meetings were held with one or two session members and a pastor? at businesses planning all this….with some of the session having no idea about it for months. It has not been discussed by the church and the session for a year or more as stated. A lot of distortion has taken place and it is unfortunate….because it taints some of the rest of us in our efforts to try to lead our churches to leave PCUSA in a Christian and respectful way, with at least giving some credence to the vows each of us took in regards to following chruch procedure for leaving. Many of these people upset also wanted to eventually leave, but thought they owed it to the local presbytery to do it in a manner worth of fellow Chritians. Really has been a horrible and hateful way to go about this…but that is something you don’t really know without personal knowledge, so perhaps you are being a little hard this poster. Because I, like most of you, are fed up with the arrogance, etc. of the national PCUSA and that colors everthing else, but in this case there are some other issues that seemed questionable. That is all.
Thank you for your response……we need to hear more of the story. I acknowledge that mo spring has a point of view worth listening to.
It is too easy to see things from a distance and make assumptions. There are real people, real feelings, and lives involved. It is not all black and white…yes and no. Bullying is not productive or Christ-like.
It is a messy process for everyone!
The leadership of F&C froze out the presbytery before they began this process. There was a grand plan based on a false narrative from the get go. John Calvin is a small presbytery, and hadafe it publicly known it is not going to hold property hostage. Other churches are going through the very gracious dismissal process. First and Calvary chose power. Sad.
When Colonial in Kansas City, Missouri (my home church from 1996-2014), went through its discernment process five years ago, it was very up-front with the whole process. The Session was on a retreat in January 2010, when it discerned that the Lord was calling Colonial to get out of the Presbyterian Church (USA) and to get out of debt. (Neither of these was the agenda of the retreat, but the pastors and ruling elders discerned that this was the Holy Spirit’s call for Colonial.) At the time, the church owed a substantial sum for property in Kansas it had purchased in the mid-1990s, and on which it built a second church building that opened in 2002.
The Session reported to the congregation on January 25 the outcome of its retreat and announced that the church was going into a season of discernment. Four Town Hall meetings were held, in which the Session discussed its reasons for why they believed that the Holy Spirit was calling Colonial to separate from the PC(USA), and in which an Administrative Review Committee was invited to discuss reasons for why Colonial should remain affiliated with Heartland Presbytery and the PC(USA). After the Town Hall meetings were conducted, the congregation was polled, and over 90% of the respondants said that they wanted Colonial to disaffiliate from the PC(USA) and affiliate instead with another Reformed deonomination that more closely aligned with Colonial’s belief and practice.
Heartland made it known to Colonial that if the congregation followed through on this, Heartland would sue to retain Colonial’s property in order to uphold the Book of Order’s immoral property trust clause. The Session asked Heartland to organize an Administrative Commission with the authority to negotiate in good faith for the terms of Colonial’s separation, but the Presbytery refused. After a couple of months of Heartland stalling and refusing to negotiate in good faith, the Session called a congregational meeting, with at least two weeks’ notice, to vote on whether or not to disaffiliate from the PC(USA) and whether or not to affiliate with the Evangelical Presbyterian Church. Less than a week before the called meeting, Heartland summoned the Lead Pastor and the Clerk of Session to order them to cancel the called meeting, or else the Presbytery would lock the doors and take over administration of the congregation. The next day, Colonial secured Temporary Restraining Orders and filed for Quiet Title in the district courts of both Missouri and Kansas. The congregational meeting went forward as planned, and the congregation voted overwhelmingly to disaffiliate from Heartland Presbytery and the PC(USA) and to affiliate instead with the EPC.
The Missouri district court awarded the property to Colonial; the Kansas district court said that inasmuch as both Heartland and Colonial were Missouri corporations, Missouri was the proper venue for this conflict and dismissed the case, irrespective of the fact that Colonial owned property in Kansas; the Missouri appellate court upheld the district court ruling, and the Missouri Supreme Court refused to hear the case. Thus, Colonial was awarded ownership of its property. And while the litigation was taking place, Colonial tackled the debt issue.
The Apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians that “all things should be done decently and in order” (I Cor. 14.40), and to the Romans, “If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.” (Rom. 12.18) Colonial made every reasonable effort to seek a peaceful, gracious separation from the PC(USA), but Heartland proved itself adverse to such a separation, making a resort to the secular courts the only way in which a peaceful settlement could be reached.
That being said, it appears that the Session of First and Calvary did not even make an attempt to either be open from the beginning with its congregation or to attempt to negotiate in good faith a settlement with John Calvin Presbytery, but instead moved directly to the vote to disaffiliate. Now, I could be mistaken, but this is how it appears to me. How, then, did First and Calvary seek a separation “decently and in order”? How did First and Calvary seek to “live peaceably with” John Calvin Presbytery?
Mo Spring, I am still pcusa, but you cannot agree with last GA, and still say you believe what the Bible says. That does not mean you cannot have an opinion marriage. The lack of trust about the presbytery from the church came from somewhere. I am still amused that churches have to go through lengthy dismissals when the real end game from the presbytery is hoping that the ones that want to leave will get so tired of the process that they just go somewhere else and leave the property, that’s what going on here. In states that don’t recognize the trust clause, churches should be able to vote and leave, in states that do recognize the trust clause, it is called being held hostage.
ShowMe, even if the presbytery did say they would not hold the “property” hostage, given decisions from louisville, you can bet they would have demanded their pound of flesh.
This is a paragraph from the link provided by mo spring. It appears that they did go through what discernment is with the congregation with at least four forums and study, both personal and corporate. Scruggs seems to be the chosen spokes person for those complaining about the process.
“Scruggs said they’re going through the usual dismissal process with four other churches in the region. She said it includes praying, reading scripture and studying issues with the church. She said elders would make a recommendation to the presbytery to either stay, join another denomination with the Presbyterian Church, or “be dissolved” from the denomination.
Scruggs said it appears First and Calvary did their own research, away from the presbytery. She said there were three “forum opportunities” without much time for questions. Leaders then sought, and received, a restraining order against the presbytery and set a vote for the congregation.”
Discernment is a quiet process where each member and session seeks the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Some people want loud debating, but in the case of the church/ presbytery I am in that was prohibited. That made some people say the process was flawed. Not everything is known by the members because it happens within the Session.
I am not sure of the correct details in the above case, but discernment is sometimes misunderstood.
I am a part of JCP, and we function like a family. There was no “pound of flesh” demanded or expected…only a lot of broken relationships. The leadership at F&C handled this like it was the “Sinking of the Maine.”
Then with all do respect, why can’t the majority just vote and leave? I get the loss in relationships, however if what you say is true, and I know there are a lot of hurt fellings here, the dismissal process is getting more cumbersome and longer, maybe if the presbyteries would stand up to louisville and let these churches go without all the crap, Oh well we all no better………….
I’m all for chruches leaving as well, however it’s kind of hard to do that when the group you are negotiating with is acting on orders from headquarters. Until presbyteries stand up to louisville everyone is living in a dream world in regards to leaving the pcusa.
Dear Moor,
Not sure that I understand your post, but am a longstanding member of F&C and attended all public meetings and the court case concerning the property.
Somehow, you missed two key words in my post. They are
“Louisville Papers.” If you should read them, you might get an idea of the extent of my outrage. If you read the first part of this “secret” material by PCUSA to its lawyers, you too, may understand.
The first notation is “#1 Anyone who might consider leaving the PC(USA)is a sinner.” Wow, pretty strong words! We are all considered to be sinners, but I refuse to let the General Assembly of the PC(USA) cast the first stone.
God Bless you!
End of my comments……over and out.
Loren,
I think your last paragraph is spot on. The presbytery was frozen out of the “process” from the very beginning. I know of many people who reached out to F&C to offer their perspective from GA, etc. These were all met with silence.
R Smith the specific notation #1 you reference is false commentary from The Layman and does not accurately represent the language of the document. The actual document does not say that “anyone who might consider leaving the PC(USA) is a sinner”. That is only what The Layman reported the document says. The reference to sin in the document is not about those who “might consider leaving the PC(USA)” but about the way in which they chose to leave.
Eric “That is only what The Layman reported the document says. The reference to sin in the document is not about those who “might consider leaving the PC(USA)” but about the way in which they chose to leave.”
For the record as a long time Layman reader and past Ruling Elder who relies on it’s articles from a Biblical base and open forum, I do not think I have seen anything from the Layman where it has been printed that “those might consider leaving the pcusa” is sin. With that said most presbyteries and louisville make what this church did almost necessary. As far as in the way they choose to leave, that narritive has louisvilles finger prints all over it, Sin? I don’t think so, churches like First and Calvary Presbyterian Church are tired getting slow played by the presbyteries whose whole long drawn out mission is to get them to change their minds and then get a nice parting fee for leaving
Eric “That is only what The Layman reported the document says. The reference to sin in the document is not about those who “might consider leaving the PC(USA)” but about the way in which they chose to leave.”
For the record as a long time Layman reader and past Ruling Elder who relies on it’s articles from a Biblical base and open forum, I do not think I have seen anything from the Layman where it has been printed that “those might consider leaving the pcusa” is sin. With that said most presbyteries and louisville make what this church did almost necessary. As far as in the way they choose to leave, that narritive has louisvilles finger prints all over it, Sin? I don’t think so, churches like First and Calvary Presbyterian Church are tired getting slow played by the presbyteries whose whole long drawn out mission is to get them to change their minds and then get a nice parting fee for leaving
James H here is a link to The Layman article R Smith quoted and that I responded to ~ http://layman.wpengine.com/majorissues0d54/
I do remember this document, I though that this was one man’s opinion of the Louisville Documents not the wholesale opinion of the Layman, however I can see your point. To my knowledge,a do correct me if I’m wrong has louisiville came in the last 7 years when since this was released and countered it?
James H I doubt Louisville responds to all of the specific misrepresentations about the PC(USA) published in The Layman but there were at least two responses out of Louisville to the “Louisville Papers.” The first was a pastoral response by then Stated Clerk Clifton Krikpatrick. The second was a response by the legal council who wrote the “Louisville Papers.” Both were published by The Presbyterian Outlook in 2007. Each response acknowledges there may be times when dismissal is the right course of action. There are no quick exits though. The slow play you refer to is not all that bad. In the case of R Smith for example he claims the “Louisville Papers” were the “final straw” in his decision to leave the denomination. If First and Calvary’s session had not rushed a vote of the congregation during the summer with only 2 weeks notice, and instead given the presbytery a longer chance to meet and discuss concerns within the congregation, R Smith and others may have learned the “Louisville Papers” do not in fact claim that “anyone who might consider leaving the PC(USA) is a sinner.” I can see your point that the article in The Layman was one man’s opinion but the problem is that there are people in our denomination who will see this man’s opinion printed in The Layman, with permission, and never go to the original document to verify what was actually said – and then begin repeating the error online and perhaps in person to their congregation. These are not easy misunderstandings to undo and presbyteries and congregations need time to work through them. Discernment and dismissal has affected two congregations that are both very special to me, one of them is First and Calvary. In both cases I’ve seen and heard numerous misunderstandings just like the one R Smith shared in this forum, misunderstandings that lead to real anger. In the end a congregation may not decide to stay in the PC(USA) but I’d like to think that the slow play you refer to helps heal some wounds and allows us to part on better, rather than bitter, terms.
Eric by the time a church votes to leave they have been thinking about for a long time. Those in the minority have known for a long time, the problem I have seen with dragging it out is that things get worse for both sides. It seems from what I have seen that slow playing make the one who want to leave resentful, think Christ Pres, Edina, that was dragged out way too long. Anything past six months and the Church is being held hostage
I understand the hurt fellings and loss of relationships, however the process needs to speed up. There’s a reason why First and Calvary got an injunction so fast and I’m willing to bet the presbytery knows why.
I accidentally stumbled over this news, and am hreatbroken about F&C voting to leave the denomination, hoping they will reconsider. I was there as a seminary intern in 1975-76 for about 14 months, admittedly a short time, but it was formative and powerful for me. This action is a betrayal of the Saints who taught me ministry and service to God through the church. Jack Hart must be turning in his grave. The list of those Saints is long – Dave and Laura Fleetwood, Julie March, and I could go on. FIrst & Calvary was a rock for the Presbyerian Church, where I learned that reverent and theologically deep worship combined with care for the poorest in the city and we did both. (I remember the Unitarians went out of their way to condemn us, while ignoring the Assembly of God, and doing nothing themselves except debating abstract principles.) We live in times where the self-righteous will divide the Presbyterian Church over their own phony outrage, over issues that are not as old as some people’s underwear. Shame on Andrew Chaney and his shallow minions, for betraying the Saints and harming this great church.
I am really saddened as a third generation member of that congregation. F & C really took a selfish nosedive. I bailed at the right time and now a happy tenured professor of clinical psychology with a Jewish wife. Hope you and Lou Ann are well! My best always.