Posted Monday, January 31, 2011
I am in agreement with the authors of the article on “Time for Something New” and would like to sign on to their document. Fritz Longabaugh, head pastor Parkminster Church, Rochester, N.Y.
Separation is only solution
Posted Monday, January 31, 2011
I am glad that someone has emphasized that the Presbyterian Church (USA) is broken and dare to say the solution is a new denomination separate from but in correspondence with the present PCUSA. Both “sides” are convinced they are correct and neither will give “an inch.” Therefore, the only practical solution is a gracious separation. Frank Norment
White Paper authors: Stand up and identify yourselves
Posted Monday, January 31, 2011
These pastors who wrote the White Paper need to stand up, identify themselves and start soliciting support from churches that may not be so large. There are plenty of smaller churches that support their position. Ed McLean Maitland, Fla.
Editor’s Note: In response to your letter, please read the updated story.
‘I am disappointed by the anonymity of this so called report’
Posted Monday, January 31, 2011
I read with interest the report of this so-called White Paper out of Arizona. My immediate reaction is “so what.” Please do not take that the wrong way. I find the thoughts, desires and proposed actions to be good, solid and well thought out directions. I could gladly associate myself with these positions. In many ways I do – and have for more than a couple of years. I have written, spoken, traveled and lobbied – to GA, Indianapolis, Orlando – worked for renewal, prayed, acted and demonstrated even at the seat of so much that is wrong with the Presbyterian Church (USA) (the Louisville bureaucratic basilica). Every time I have placed my name, my future and my convictions on public display.
I am disappointed by the anonymity of this so called report. My actions and those of many others have always been out there. Sometimes those have been at a heavy cost. We have lost enormously faithful and gifted pastors, preachers, elders and deacons to other still faithful Reformed bodies. Many of those of us who believe we were called to this particular mission (battle) ground – and remain to be faithful to that call – have lost “friends,” pulpits, security and in some cases for at least a while, hope. In a couple of cases, some of us have been blackballed by leftist and liberal COMs from ever being cleared for a call in “their” presbyteries.
All of those things are a part of the cost of having the courage to stand for the right things; faithful reformed practice, orthodox Christian Doctrine, the authority of Scripture, Biblical living and obedience to God. It is okay. We will continue to do so and bear gladly the marks of our faith.
In light of that I ask, who are you? Why are you not standing on your hilltop? Where are the Luthers?
“Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason – and I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other – my conscience is held captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. Here I stand. I cannot do otherwise. God help me. Amen.” – Martin Luther
Had I known of this meeting, I would have asked to be a part of it. Further, if I had a hand in crafting this paper, I would have signed it. If you expect people to rally to your effort, you need to lead from the front. Rev. James C. Yearsley Tampa, Fla.
‘The PCUSA has largely abandoned preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ’
Posted Monday, January 31, 2011
Do you remember the story of “The emperor who wore no clothes?”
An emperor is duped by con artists into thinking he is wearing the latest in fashion, except that his clothes are invisible. The whole town gets wrapped up in it.
Finally a little child innocently states the obvious and asks: “Why is the emperor not wearing any clothes?” And everyone finally realizes they all have been duped.
The authors of the “white paper” state it is “Time for Something New” and “We believe we will not survive without drastic intervention.”
I shall always love the Presbyterian Church in which my family and I came to faith in Christ, but why can’t someone just state the obvious truth?
The PCUSA has largely abandoned preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Instead it has degenerated and deteriorated into a gay-rights advocacy group wearing ecclesiastical robes and using religious language. How can you renew or reform something that is rotten?
It is time for those who want to follow the Lord Jesus Christ to leave the PCUSA. Mike Humphreys Virginia
It is essential to know the names of the White Paper authors
Posted Monday, January 31, 2011
I appreciate these challenges. They are clearly presented. Both the Biblical passions and values as well as the outline of specific short and long range proposals are wonderful and probably ring true to many. It takes courage to meet and propose these significant changes. For me and probably others it is also essential to know the names of the authors of this “White Paper.” This strong paper should not be given as an anonymous proposal. There are real challenges to being open to this extent but it is important to know that those who are speaking are “all in.” Looking forward to watch how God is glorified and how He blesses His Church through your efforts of reconciliation in His love. Stew Cusick First Presbyterian Church, Wenatchee, Wash.
Brown has such a negative impression of PCUSA
Posted Monday, January 31, 2011
I feel sad that Larry Brown carries around such a negative impression of our denomination. It must be hard to correct an inaccurate image, separated by a great geographical distance and a move to another denomination.
I’d like to tell Larry that I’ve been happily involved in many aspects of Presbyterian Church (USA) and its antecedents for many years – worship, education, music, outreach, mission, governance, fellowship, caregiving. In Presbyterian churches in six states I’ve known people filled with love, commitment, warmth and concern for others.
Oh, by the way, I’m a college-educated driver of a Ford (without a GPS) who has no iPhone and can usually be seen wearing jeans and a sweatshirt jacket! Sue Williams San Jose, Calif.
Hats off to ‘white paper’
Posted Friday, January 28, 2011
It’s about time we focus on the essence of the mission and mandate of the “body” as the Word of God laid out.
My hats off to the participants of the “white paper,” for their courage, faithfulness and discernment. Rev. Peter B. Min
We owe them support
Posted Friday, January 28, 2011
It is about time pastors demonstrate their faith in concert with their congregations. They place their faith in God’s Word, not the power of PCUSA, we owe them our full support.
To God goes the glory, Richard Conway
PCUSA out of touch with its roots
Posted Friday, January 28, 2011
I read with alarm about the closeness of the vote on Amendment 10-A, which will determine if the Presbyterian Church (USA) will ordain gay clergy who will no longer “live in chastity.” Ask yourself the question: Why is Presbyterianism declining so precipitously in America? Answer: Because the Presbyterians are no longer representative of the general American population.
We need to return to our roots. Our Presbyterian ancestors came to America in the 1700s from Scotland and Ireland, where they had been living in stone cottages with thatched roofs, slept with the border collie, and ate sheep stomachs stuffed with oatmeal for supper. Once in America however, somebody asked the question, “Hey, what if we sent our children to school?” As a result, 10 generations later the typical Presbyterian is a professional person with a graduate degree (only 27.5 percent of the U.S. population has a bachelor’s degree or higher), rides around in a BMW convertible complete with GPS, and talks to a client in Barcelona on his iPhone.
Would the guy who works behind the counter at the NAPA auto parts store or the girl who drives a UPS delivery truck feel comfortable in the typical Presbyterian church? Probably not. I had a stepdaughter and son-in-law who dropped out of church because they didn’t fit in with the church crowd. She was a dog clipper and he was a welder (they now go to a Nazarene church and love it). Presbyterianism is far whiter, far more educated and far more affluent than the general population. Presbyterianism’s tombstone will bear the inscription, “Died from terminal yuppiness.”
Now, added to that, you want to ordain gay clergy with “partners,” transvestites and transexuals when only around 5 percent of the American population is gay? It’s easy to see where this is going. When 20 or 30 percent of PCUSA clergy are GLBT (gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, transgender), and are bringing different partners home every night (studies have shown that “gay” marriages tend to be “open” marriages; the lawyers will get rich from gay divorce cases) are the moms and dads of America going to want to take their kids to the PCUSA church? Probably not.
America’s religious left has a set of values that is impossibly incongruous. They hate capital punishment and the State of Israel. They support abortion, homosexuality and feminism. They are fond of all things Islamic. However, try going to Saudi Arabia or any other Muslim country. Anyone in those countries caught transgressing Sahri’a law – and this includes all the values stated above, homosexuality, etc. – are liable to execution by being publicly stoned to death. Actually it’s Westernized, secularized Israel that’s more in line with “mainline Protestant” values.
And so the current trends will no doubt continue. But I can’t help wondering what our Presbyterian forebears, if they can look down from heaven, are thinking about all this. Larry Brown African Bible College, Lilongwe, Malawi
PCUSA’s attempts to direct the government have never been successful
Posted Monday, January 24, 2011
Linda Valentine and Gradye Parsons would have the state of Kentucky believe that the Presbyterian Church (USA) brings great economic benefit to Kentucky. Is that really the case?
The building at 100 Witherspoon Street is said to be half-empty due to the periodic reductions in force. The denomination loses approximately 174 members per day and its membership may already have sunk below 2 million. The denomination loses economic weight day-by-day as the membership melts away. How much economic benefit can such a denomination really provide?
The denomination’s recurrent attempts to direct the government have never had any success, perhaps because no one pays any attention to such utterances. I think politicians know that the PCUSA leadership does not truly represent the people in the pews.
Perhaps the denomination would be better served if Parsons and Valentine focused their attention on discovering the reasons that the denomination is shrinking and seeking solutions.
George Hill Port Allen, La.
‘It is better to read the Bible than to trumpet it’
Posted Monday, January 24, 2011
While The Layman parrots the xenophobes, I note that the formula from the prophets for those in God’s special concern are “the poor, the widows, the orphans, and the foreigners in your midst” for Israel was to remember that they were “foreigners as sojourners in the land of Egypt.”
It is better to read the Bible than to trumpet it. Jimmy Shelbourn, pastor First Presbyterian Church, Beatrice, Neb.
nFOG letters are inaccurate
Posted Monday, January 24, 2011
In recent days, two letters have been published about the proposed Form of Government that contain inaccurate and incomplete information about several subjects.
First, the citation by Mr. Stuart of F-1.0403 (Unity in Diversity) ignores the sentence immediately following the quote: “No member shall be denied participation or representation for any reason other than those stated in this Constitution.” One such reason, current G-6.0106b, is found in nFOG G-2.0104b, and can only be changed by constitutional amendment, as is the intent of Amendment 10-A now being voted upon.
In addition, the scenario Mr. Stuart implies – that F-1.0403 could be used to “trump” or otherwise invalidate G-2.0104b – is not permissible under F-3.03. That paragraph states, “Provisions of any part of this constitution are to be interpreted in light of the whole constitution. No provision of the Book of Order can of itself invalidate any other. Where there are tensions and ambiguities between provisions, it is the task of councils and judicial commissions to resolve them in such a way as to give effect to all provisions.” This language, not in the current Form of Government, encapsulates GAPJC decisions on the scenario raised by Mr. Stuart, such as Londonderry (GAPJC Remedial Case 213-2; see pages 4-5).
As for the inactive membership roll issue, all nFOG says is that a session is not required to maintain an inactive members roll. This does not mean that a session cannot keep one, if it chooses. Members who have ceased to participate in a congregation fall under the category of Other Participants (G-1.0404): “Persons who are not members of, or who may have ceased active participation in, the Presbyterian Church (USA) are welcome and may participate in the life and worship of this church and receive its pastoral care and instruction (emphasis added).” Sessions are free to track these persons in any way they choose. In making this change, the task force believed that the term “inactive member” was an oxymoron. Per capita issues did not enter the discussion and had no bearing on this decision. Per capita will continue to be assessed on those members on the active members roll of the session, and not the baptized or affiliates roll, or any other roll or register of participants maintained by the session. (Some presbyteries, while they pay the per capita requests of the General Assembly and their synod, do not apportion their constituent sessions in their mission funding strategy.)
A few other quick notes:
- Sessions will continue to receive persons as members of the congregation, according to the same entry points currently in use (G-1.0303). The only way a person can be received into membership, moved from one roll to another, or removed is by session action.
- Committees on Ministry (COM) are not necessarily being eliminated. They will no longer be a “named” structure that all presbyteries are required to have, freeing presbyteries to do the same work in different ways. I suspect most presbyteries will continue to use a COM, at least into the immediate future, should nFOG pass.
- The COM does not handle matters of discipline, either under the current or proposed Form of Government. Should such a circumstance arise, the COM or its equivalent would have to refer the matter to the presbytery stated clerk to be handled under the provisions of the Rules of Discipline.
- Ordination remains a call, not a right; in fact, nFOG returns the idea of this call involving three parties, something that has always been our understanding of calling, but not clearly stated in the current book. See G-2.0103.
Mr. Stuart also concludes that “all presbyteries will have different rules” in their manuals of operation. This is already the case under the current Form of Government in many areas. However, “rules” lacks precision in his use of the term. The proposed Form of Government is not so much about the “what” of our polity – the basic principles (rules) undergirding our governance remain unchanged. Sessions or presbyteries are not free to alter these standards, nor write different standards into their manuals.
What the proposal is about is the “how” and the “who” – the ways in which sessions, presbyteries, etc. implement their constitutional responsibilities. Instead of a one-size-fits-all 1970s-era regulatory structure being required of all councils, councils are freed to structure and do their work in the ways that work best in their setting. For a fuller discussion of the polity path we have taken and the unintended consequences that have arisen over the past 28 years, see Joe Small’s address, “The Travail of the Presbytery.” (Note Small’s quote from Mike Krzyzewski on page 10: “People who can’t make decisions make rules.”)
The difference between what will need to be expressed in manuals and the standards that remain in the constitution may be illustrated by my experience of being ordained by one presbytery and received as a member of two others. Each presbytery had different procedures for the call process, as well as the process for receiving me. One presbytery required me to appear before the congregation and preach a candidacy sermon, another did not. One presbytery provided some of the questions I would be asked on the floor in advance, the others did not. When I was examined for ordination, the presbytery asked all of my family members and me to leave the floor while they debated whether to proceed. The other two presbyteries I have been part of do not do this. My current presbytery asked me to sign a “Book of Obligations” immediately after the presbytery voted to receive me, the others had no such book. In all three presbyteries, the different things that were done in different ways all were done under the same standards established by the Form of Government. The proposed Form of Government opens up this type of flexibility in various areas of council procedures and structures, without writing many of those procedures and structures into the constitution, as currently exists. They will be in manuals, where they belong. Contrary to what some contend, I seriously doubt the work of the church will grind to a halt while this is done. Session and presbytery manuals have been revised before, without the arrival of a polity Armageddon. Dan Williams, pastor Second Presbyterian Church, Staunton, Va, and Co-Moderator, Form of Government Task Force (2008-2010)
Another example of PCUSA’s selective outrage
Posted Monday, January 24, 2011
I just read Carmen Fowler’s blog about the selectivity of the Presbyterian Church (USA) left’s moral indignation. They plead the cause of the death row inmates and illegal immigrants while supporting the murder of unborn children. I would also add that their consistent support of the Palestinians and condemnation of Israel is of the same kind of illogic. How many Muslim states demonstrate sympathy for homosexuality and feminism – two of the left’s sacred cows? In many Muslim countries you can be stoned to death for such things as adultery (at least women can). So it would seem that the Palestinians and the PCUSA left form a most odd alliance. Can we call them “The Odd Couple?” Larry Brown African Bible College
Hoping the Bluegrass State calls the PCUSA’s bluff
Posted Monday, January 24, 2011
Sorry, but I can’t help a sarcastic laugh whenever the PCUSA threatens boycotts including the latest against the state of Kentucky. I am always amazed at our denomination’s snobby and delusional sense of importance in the nation (let alone the world!). They think the masses pay attention to them as if they were the Vatican (and I’m not even sure the Vatican has a lot of clout anymore).
PCUSA bureaucrats, you really need to get over yourselves. I’m certain Louisville and Kentucky can survive without you and your mostly worthless conferences. I call upon the church to go a step further and relocate all the denominational offices to a city and state that reflect their own questionable values, say New York City or San Francisco. “Relocation would cost too much and drain our budget,” they’ll scream. But if the PCUSA had any principles, even for their own leftist positions, they wouldn’t “morally” be able to spend another cent in Kentucky.
I hope the Bluegrass State will call their bluff, because the benefits of weeding out illegal citizens will more than make up for the PCUSA’s paltry contribution to that economy. Mike Montgomery Atlanta, Ga.