Posted Tuesday, April 30, 2002
Many share Ed McLean’s hope to “avoid having to vote on this issue again” (4/24 posting). Proposals now being considered may help, such as requiring a two-thirds majority for future Book of Order amendments, and changes to preclude further disorderly incidents at GA. The endless debate and voting may finally be nearly over.
The next step is already well begun, as individuals and sessions in open violation of G-6.106b are being identified and charged by vigilant elders. Presbyteries are being urged to prosecute credible charges (including heresy) and to carry out sentences with deliberate speed and resolve.
Scores of openly homosexual seminary students have already been identified (most by their own admission) so they can never be ordained within the PCUSA. Soon, our church may be cleansed of all openly homosexual elders, deacons and ministers, as well as all who would defy the clear will of the majority of right-thinking Presbyterians.
At the end of this process, the widow who has for so long pestered us for “justice” will be gone from the church. Then the Confessing Churches and the others who remain will show how well the love, justice and mercy of Jesus Christ can be manifested in such a Presbyterian Church.
But for God’s sake and by all means necessary, let’s not “vote on this issue again.” That would only create disunity and disharmony, and we wouldn’t want that.
Brian Wells, elder First & Franklin Street Presbyterian Church, Baltimore, Md.
It’s all about love … right?
Posted Tuesday, April 30, 2002
Love is everything! I love Adolph Hitler. I love Joseph Stalin. I love Osama Bin Laden. I love Ted Bundy. I love Richard Ramirez. Too bad I can’t have them all over for dinner. Maybe they would love me to death!
In the “liberal world” there is no good or evil/no right or wrong – only what “feels” good. This is the danger facing Presbyterians, Christians and Americans at this moment.
Doug Anderson Southlake, Texas
An ‘enemy’ resists unBiblical change
Posted Tuesday, April 30, 2002
In supporting the stated clerk’s call for a leaner constitution seeking to remove accountability for the conduct of church officers, David Wallace, dean of Johnson C. Smith Theological Seminary, stated that he believed the “enemy” [to post-modern thought] is not personal but is rather, “resistance to change.”
When change includes supporting the adoption of popular culture in the place of God’s rules for how we are to conduct ourselves as Christians – I will resist.
When change includes warping the idea of ecumenism to embrace ideas like “unity through diversity” and the acceptance of all religions as equally valid – I will resist.
When change includes embracing homosexuality as normal behavior for a born-again Christian – I will resist.
Mr. Wallace is free to label me Public Enemy Number One.
Dave Hirlinger Newport News, Va.
Many PCUSA youth committed to Biblical orthodoxy
Posted Friday, April 26, 2002
In response to Brian Cave’s letter regarding the youth of our church, their seeming unwillingness to leave and their “fierce” support for Amendment 01-A:
I am here to stand up and say there is a sizable faction of youth within the church committed to Biblical orthodoxy, no matter what church leaders say. We will support Amendment G-6.0106b, and will not be pushed from our church!
I am a pre-ministerial student at a Presbyterian College and plan to attend seminary when I graduate. But I am worried because my theology often clashes with the theologies of my professors and other church leaders.
It is time for real leaders to stand up in our church and proclaim truth. I hope that I can be one of these people some day. I desperately want to stay in the PC USA. But if God calls me to leave for another Reformed denomination that actually reads the Bible and Westminster standards, then I will go.
This is to let everyone know that there are students in our schools and seminaries who are faithful and orthodox to the true Catholic Church and that we will not be silenced! We will join together and speak with a loud united voice to stand for Christ’s crown and covenant.
Tony Lorenz Warsaw First Presbyterian Church
Catholic reader: Continue fighting the good fight
Posted Friday, April 26, 2002
I am a former Presbyterian. I married a Roman Catholic, we had a daughter and I converted. However, I am very aware of the ongoing struggles within the Presbyterian Church (USA). My grandfather, father and mother are, or have been, both elders and deacons in the Church.
I am constantly amazed at the battles that the Presbyterian Lay Committee must fight time and time again.
Although I am a very content Catholic, I am also intensely proud of my religious heritage. Surprisingly, Catholics and orthodox Presbyterians have much more in common than not. Don’t be discouraged. You are truly fighting “the good fight.”
I will continue to pray for you, and your cause.
Roger Butler Tulsa, Okla.,
Attack on Layman is really a compliment
Posted Friday, April 26, 2002
In response to David Duncan of Swannanoa, N.C., who labeled The Layman “hateful, unkind, and mean-spirited:”
Would you also label Jesus ‘hateful, unkind, and mean-spirited’ because he called his opponents a “brood of vipers?” Or the doctor, who announces that the tests are positive for cancer, is she similarly “mean-spirited?”
The Layman is merely the messenger of a view of the truth to which you object. Beware who cries, “Crucify!”
You pay The Layman a grand compliment when you write, “It seems that all the positions taken by your organization are rooted in the 18th or 19th century, if not earlier.” Indeed, if we could more clearly discern the unchanging will of God as recorded in the very first century we’d be much farther along in what was begun in the Reformation.
Further, it is simply impossible that any modern “scholarship” could show that what was declared to be sinful behavior 2,000 years ago has somehow morphed into behavior now acceptable to God. The law of our sovereign God is not amendable by any of us, be we peasant, pope or Presbyterian.
Finally, if this is not the pot calling the kettle black – when you conclude, “The best thing that could possibly happen to the PCUSA in 2002, is for the Presbyterian Lay Committee to self-destruct, burned to death by the acid of its own bile.”
If that’s not “hateful, unkind, and mean-spirited,” I don’t know what is. You won’t win friends to your discredited cause by using the same rhetoric you claim to abhor.
Dr. Richard Sleight, member First Presbyterian Church of Bellevue
Self-proclaimed ‘progressives’ becoming mean-spirited
Posted Friday, April 26, 2002
I think Dave Huting (“you guys {the Layman} sure are mean”) should be praying for David Duncan (who wishes The Layman would burn up in acidic bile. Yikes!) rather than praying for The Layman.
The self-proclaimed “progressives” seem to be devolving into mean-spirited name-calling and childish defiance (as in Brian Cave’s “we will not abide by it {G-6.0106b”). Whatever happened to your prolific claims of tolerance and all-embracing love, my “progressive” friends? Your tantrums defeat your purposes. Grow up.
Rev. J.P. Thornton Buchanan Co. Va.
Critic of The Layman misses the mark
Posted Friday, April 26, 2002
Elder Dave Duncan really takes The Layman to task and portrays you as real baddies.
However, he misses the mark badly when he says that The Layman’s opinions and ideas are rooted in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Not so. They are rooted a lot further back than that, like, say, before the first century and during the first century. They are rooted at the time the Bible was written.
The real problem for Dave seems to be that his opinions are rooted in 21st century postmodernism.
Elder Jim Harper Clerk of Session
Moderator misses the point – again!
Posted Wednesday, April 24, 2002
Oops, he did it again!
In a recent address to the That All May Freely Serve conference, Moderator Jack B. Rogers refers to a sermon in which he used the Council at Jerusalem (Acts 15:1-21) as a picture of how the GLBT membership of our church should be treated.
Since the Gentile believers weren’t required to become Jewish in order to be accepted into the Christian fold, neither should the GLBTs be required to become what the conservative evangelicals think they ought to be before having full rights of participation. Mr. Rogers missed the point of that council.
It is true that the Gentiles didn’t need circumcision or adherence to all the Jewish customs to be Christians. However, the Council at Jerusalem did “write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood (Acts 15:20).” In other words, to refrain from actions that in their former lives would have seemed normal, therefore harmless, to them.
“So I tell you this,” wrote Paul, “and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking (Eph. 4:22).”
BTW, did you know that if you scramble the letters in “Britney Spears” you get “Presbyterians?”
Michael Warner Elder, Presbyterian Church of Islip
Please, no more Amendment A
Posted Wednesday, April 24, 2002
Is there any way we can avoid having to vote on this issue again?
Ed McLean Maitland, Fla.
GLBT people will not leave church
Posted Wednesday, April 24, 2002
In response to Bob Davis’ article, “How to deal with defiance,” as a voice for the more than half of young members (those 30 and under) of the Presbyterian Church (USA), I can tell you we will not be peacefully withdrawing. We will be saying loud and clear that G-6.0106b is wrong. And those of us who cannot abide by G-6.0106b, we will not abide by it.
God does not call us to ask people to leave the church. God calls us to have our arms open and welcoming to all God’s children. It is obvious the YADS at General Assembly know and feel this because more than half of YADS voted to remove G-6.010b. Not only this year, but also the past few years.
Also, the Presbyterian Youth Connection voted by a large majority that gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered people be allowed to serve in all aspects of the church. The future of the Presbyterian Church (USA) is our future and the young people want the church to be an inclusive church for all.
I can guarantee you that we will not be peacefully withdrawing from a church that is important to us, we are staying and we are going to make the Presbyterian Church (USA) a place where all God’s children can serve.
Brian Cave MLP Liaison for Youth and Young Adults, Jan Hus Presbyterian Church , New York, N.Y.
Don’t overlook ‘Ontario’ seminary
Posted Wednesday, April 24, 2002
I see that in your listing of evangelical seminaries in the top group for enrollment, you do not highlight “Ontario.” Kindly note that the school is indeed evangelical and has a strict statement of faith.
There are several of us who are Presbyterian ministers who teach there. It is probably one of the most multi-ethnic seminaries in North America. It celebrates its 25th anniversary this year and is now Canada’s largest.
(Rev. Dr.) A. Donald MacLeod Adjunct professor of church history
Prayers for the ‘mean’ guys
Posted Wednesday, April 24, 2002
You guys sure are mean. I pray for you daily.
Dave Huting
Why require seminary exams?
Posted Wednesday, April 24, 2002
I am curious. There seem to be many people who consider it the right of any Presbyterian Christian to serve in an ordained position.
They react negatively to any standards being imposed on good, loving people who, in their minds, should be free to serve God in any way that they feel called. Do these people ever say anything about our ordination exams or our seminary requirements? It seems to me that if they argue that everyone has a basic right to serve as a pastor, then to be consistent they would also have to say that we are discriminating against those who have difficulty in the educational system or those who have difficulty taking tests or those who cannot afford a seminary education.
Celia Stone Farmville, N.C.
Ignore God’s wrath at your own peril
Posted Wednesday, April 24, 2002
It is always interesting when the god of modern theology and human invention collides with the God of Scripture. A recent letter opined that “Jesus Christ loved and tolerated everyone no matter what they did or were or believed in.”
After so many years of poor theological instruction and mind-numbing sermons, it is little wonder that many in our denomination would accept that assertion.
The Jesus of Matthew 23:33 got my attention. “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?” Hardly an example of love and tolerance!
Consider Hebrews 10:30-31: “For we know him who said, ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,'” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
While using Scripture selectively is unsound scholarship, our tendency is to completely ignore the sections that show God’s wrathful and judgmental side.
Yet, any fair reading clearly shows that God’s love is not a license for “anything goes” and that the laws that define righteous living are not amenable to human modification. God will judge and that judgment will be according to his absolute standard. Hopeful love as offered in a human sense of tolerating “what suits me” will be a poor defense.
It is more likely that Christian love exists as the crowning attribute of a whole host of antecedent qualities. Consider 2 Peter 1:4-7. “Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.”
Love covers over pettiness and a host of lesser sins. It does not obviate the need for knowledge, self-control, and godliness.
John A. Cowan Cartersville, Ga.