PCUSA’s definition of marriage changed: Same-sex marriage is permitted (updated 3/20/15)

The Church has been debating this vigorously since before the first same gender marriages in MA over a decade ago. The easy thing…the go along to get along thing, for the denomination to do would have been to say and do nothing. Instead, it has chosen to speak when silence would have been easier, cheaper, and not have challenged the comfortable belief of so many of its comfortable members.

The church is not being an echo. It is being a voice calling others to acceptance, away from literalism, and towards full inclusion of all into Gods Church. Not the liberals church, or the conservatives, but Gods. The charges being leveled at the Church have been leveled at it before at times of change and greater acceptance of those not accepted before. That did not make it the wrong thing to do then, nor does it now. This is a good day indeed, though there will be a price for it. Doing the right thing often does.

The GA has used the faulty representation voting process to its full advantage. The GA almost seems proud to be carrying on its tradition of controversy. It seems obvious when they pass an extremely and divisive ruling and at the same time, begin discussing reconciliation. The denomination is shifting too far to the left. The voting structure is in its favor which allows it to run roughshod (run off) members who might be right of center. The leadership speaks to the democratic structure which is such a cop-out. The leadership also speaks of losing “only 350 congregations.” The leadership does not address the defection of 20% of the membership in a year. It fails to mention how large the congregations actually are. I cannot support an organization that does not truly represent its membership.

If the PCUSA is accomodating to the ways of the world by redefining marriage to include LBGT people, than what about the ordination of women? Before the Civil War Southern Presbyterians based the institution of slavery on biblical grounds. Were they not correct? Do you believe in a static or a dynamic God?
Elder Lee Lybarger

Sad day for the church.

Well stated, good for you sir!

God almighty never made clear the facts that Mrs. Laberge claims. She is merely rabble rousing for support……financial support! That must be becoming clear to more people. They have nothing to actually do with the presbyterian church unless they really do attend at times? But then that’s really all except throwing rocks at the PCUSA windows. Whoops! Forgive me please. The truth can be so hard at times.

I live in a very conservative state, and the two giant PCUSA churches in my presbytery are very conservative. Even so, the presbytery voted in favor of redefining marriage. So, the threshold question is whether the presbytery’s vote was “representative.” Of course not. Here is the hard cold truth: Most of the members in this presbytery are oblivious to the denomination’s internal struggles, or consciously seek to avoid them. On Sunday, they attend church, return to their mansions, and resume their lives. After all, church is not supposed to involve stress. Be that as it may, the hard cold truth is that there is a major disconnect between the General Assembly and the general membership, at least, in my presbytery. All across American, conservative presbyteries in conservative states have voted for the amendment. I suspect the memberships in those presbyteries are just as clueless or, alternatively, just as complacent, as they are in my presbytery. Once again, Edmund Burke’s admonition about good people doing nothing sort of sums up the situation, in my opinion.

I have to disagree. They DID indeed go along to get along, with a very liberal agenda that is. At the same time, there is so much evidence about the disintegration of traditional marriage and the impact this is having on education, welfare, kids-having-kids, healthcare and it goes on and and on. Rather than working on something would be truly impactful, it has elected to pursue something affecting a much smaller percentage of the denomination as a whole, all while it watches the decline of the denomination at increasing rates. And, as noted in the previous post, the leadership will continue to hide behind what it says is our democratic structure which is proving to be anything but. It’s shameful and far from representative.

Gene, what you call “literalism” others might call “truth.” I never had any illusions, however, about traditional marriage. I knew fifteen years ago that the PCUSA would redefine marriage, and I urged the Church then to appoint “masters” for the purpose of settling all property issues to facilitate a peaceful parting of the ways before “blood” (figuratively, not literally) was drawn. You see, I have never viewed the marriage issue as a one-off, stand alone issue. It is but one, of a series of changes, that the PCUSA will propose and then adopt, over the next 50 to 100 years. And literalism? There, I presume, you would be talking about the sacraments, Christ’s humanity, and perhaps, even, the way, the only way, to salvation. No, sir. This is not the end. This is not even the beginning of the end. We are in the first phase of a wholesale change. The PCUSA and its members will have a very hard road to travel.

Sir, I see no rabble here, but children of God, of which Carmen is clearly one.

These comments are heartfelt and painful to read. They are however essentially post mortems on the PC(USA). This denomination was still born at the point of merger. Representation at the General Assembly level did not accurately reflect the orientation of the membership at that time but rather the bias of the professional clergy, the academics and the ministers who did not work with sessions or parishes but rather in ancillary help ministries. The PC(USA) is numerically insignificant to the broader culture. it is now a progressive sideshow, perhaps even a freak show. Last one out, please turn out the light. Don’t want to waste energy.

At the same GA this amendment was sent to the presbyteries, there was also a resolution out of the marriage committee and passed by voice vote of the GA to:

“Recommend the 221st General Assembly (2014) direct the Presbyterian Mission Agency Board and the Committee on the Office of the General Assembly to engage in the process of working together with churches in the task of reconciliation, starting with visiting each presbytery and serving as a resource for each presbytery’s discussion of these actions in congregations and the presbytery at-large and present voices of reconciliation for the unity of the church.”

I’ve not seen any such engagement, has any occurred ??

What a great day, and what a great affirmation of the unchanging message of the Christian scriptures, “promote the well being of others as yourself”.

Mr. Scott, this is a very interesting . . . and helpful . . . review of the circumstances that attended the merger. I think you have provided a valuable perspective

Johan, you, and others like you, are new, or nearly new, to this forum. I presume that there is a concerted effort to rub salt in our wounds and, discounting the possibility that George Soros and Saul Alinsky are behind it (oops! Alinsky is “pushing up daisies,” but his playbook was recently seen in the White House), I presume that this is a grassroots effort. But, hey, how about cutting us a little slack? We’re being kicked to the curb . . .

You said: “what about the ordination of women?” There are various interpretations of 1 Timothy. People of faith, yes even PRESBYTERIANS of another denomination, can read it as forbidding women ordination. Other people of faith, yes even PRESBYTERIANS of another denomination, can see it as Paul cautioning Timothy over the issues happening in that church at that time, but not giving a blanket prohibition. Totally different interpretations of the same Scripture, there is a tension with these verses with other letters from Paul talking about the women who led churches in other cities.

So, under the current PC(USA)GAPJC rulings, there are so many different interpretations that all are valid. Yet, that isn’t true is it ??

You said: “Before the Civil War Southern Presbyterians based the institution of slavery on biblical grounds. Were they not correct?” No, they were not correct, as they did not take Scripture as a whole when SOME came up with that belief. When taken as a whole, Scripture is seen to be against slavery, and gently points the way to ending the practice.

You said: “Do you believe in a static or a dynamic God?” !I believe in an UNCHANGING God! God is not dynamic, God IS, WAS, WILL BE. He’s omnipotent, omniscient, and immanent. Do away with any of those, then what you have is a fake, and you may as well join the Elks as all you have is a fraternal organization.

Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying falsehood in My name. I have neither sent them nor commanded them nor spoken to them; they are prophesying to you a false vision, divination, futility and the deception of their own minds.
Jeremiah‬ ‭14‬:‭14‬

numerically, Jews should not count either. Nor Episcopalians. But, like those two groups, we matter to the wider culture, and have influence. And this, this is a good thing.

Jack … there are a few reasons why it passed:

1. If you take a good look at the numbers of votes, many of those presbyteries have either lost a bunch of conservative voices as the congregations have left for more orthodox Presbyterian denominations, or the conservatives have decided to disaffiliate in place, and not give the PC(USA) or their local presbytery their time, talents or Per Capita.

2. The other reason is that for some conservatives, or orthodox leaning ‘mushy middles’, all they see is that the clause that says a pastor or session can say NO to having a SSM in their church. They tend to forget (or don’t know about) what happened back in the 1970’s when Rev Kenyon was effectively forced out. They tend to ignore the fact that what one GA gives, another GA can take away.

others may call it truth.

but its just literalism, and allows for women to be kept out of the pulpit in many denominations. It allowed for people to be enslaved. And each time it is challenged, those doing so are called (gasp) “Liberals!”.

There is Z E R O evidence from any reputable social scientist showing that marriage equality has a negatie impact on families or marriages (opposite or same gender ones. Respectfully, that dog dont hunt. If it did, it would easily have won the day. Marriage needs strenghtneing, I agree. This action strengthens MY marriage and family, hurts no others, and is a good thing. We should all encourage faithfulness, good parenting, and such. Supporting marriage equality has no negative effect on marraige in the wider culture, despite some desperate attemtps at twisting data by fanatical Roman Catholic researchers to show otherwise.

This Fifth generation Presbyterian, um former Presbyterian, is sad, yet looking forward to walking each day faithful to scripture and Lord Jesus Christ, not accepting worldly opinions. I left the Presby church a year ago and took my substantial donations with me. Now attending a new Christ centered church, and donating time and money to scripture based organizations. I also donate regularly to Presbyterian Layman, now called ‘The Layman.’

Episcopalians (TEC) have influence ?? Evidently you have no idea what’s been going on there. From a high of 3.8 million in the 60’s, they’re down to 1.8 million as of 2013, with only an average of 625,000 actually attending.

The PC(USA) will probably see a drop to 1.7 million for 2014, and I expect 1.5 or less at the end of 2015.

Both TEC and the PC(USA) give pronouncements about areas they have no business or knowledge of, and really nobody cares other than other liberal, mainline churches. The most press either denomination gets is when TEC is suing a diocese for leaving, or a presbytery blackmails a church for wanting to leave. The only reason ELCA or the UCC don’t get such press, is that both denominations have no ‘trust’ clause, and churches are free to leave if they meet some really easy critera.

no one is kicking you to the curb. This is your church as much as mine or anyone elses, and ultimately, its Gods! We may disagree about ordination, and marriage equality, but I really have trouble believing that the good works you do (and I am sure you do) to help the poor, feed the needy, worship God in your Sanctuary, will be negatively affected in the congregation down the road marries a lesbian couple who had been togehter for 30 years already. Personally, when I try to evangelize to anyone under 40, I find it really really hard to get them to believe not all churches are homophobic. They want NONE of it, and Barna polling shows that. Several young couples have begun attending my congregations services with their kids. They tell me they would not have darkened a church door until they heard that we welcomed not just GLBT people and families, ordained GLBT people, and (equally shocking to them) ordained women.

This was the right thing to do. It really doubt it will have much of a negative effect on your mission work, and from personal experience, it may help. And no one wants you on the curb. It’s your home too.

But Gene .. the PC(USA)’s own GAPJC has said that all interpretations of Scripture are valid, are they wrong??

What makes your interpretation (which is less than 20 years old) more valid than an traditional, orthodox one that is over 2,000 years old ??

A sad day, but not surprising!

this vote is being talked about from the NYT to Brasil, mainly in supportive terms. People assume the church is far larger than it is, and its influence far exceeds those numbers in society. the emails I have gotten from Southern Baptist, Lutheran and even friends of other faiths asking about this shows this. Everyone knows the Presbyteians. The UCC beat us to a lot of this, but, they are not well known.

And how is this breaking news?

Amen, Gene. We are so much stronger together and have God’s work to do.

what makes you think that the one that is 2000 years old is right just because it is old? and, please, dont try the sad “chronological snobbery” defense against reform. This decision was right because it was right, and when the arguments for it and against it are laid side by side, it wins. It’s as simple as that. Just as my pointing out that when people said “wait, we have been reading/understanding it wrong for millenium and centuries due to reading it literally” on those other topics was right, and the ones saying it were called liberals (as an insult), so it is happening again.
So be it. This is not a popularity contest. The popular thing would have been to do nothing. ihat would have been easier. No, It is a struggle to do what we believe, after prayer and study, to do what God would have us do. And so we have done so.

Jack, your response is right on to what has been happening, has now happened, and will continue to happen in not only the PCUSA, but in the whole Christian Church itself! What is happening right now is what Christ himself foretold in Mathew 24. The sad fact is that we can do nothing to stop the moral decay, but at the same time we can surely see and witness the nearness of Christ’s return!

So a dying denomination makes this grand decision. Here’s the reality. No one cares what the PC(USA)does. Everyone knows that the denomination long ago gave up Jesus for idols. The Holy Spirit long ago left this so called church.

Yeah .. lets all follow the culture as it is the way.

If that were the case, then we wouldn’t be having this conversation, because Christianity would have died in the first century.

Not chronological snobbery … because Christ himself emphasized that marriage is between a man and a woman; because Paul warned about sexual sins of ALL forms; because there is an unequivocal judgement about SS relations. Because Scripture is the inspired word of God, ‘suitable for all teaching’; because God doesn’t change His mind. If you don’t believe that Scripture is inspired, then the Christ you follow is a fake, and the Bible is just a lot of good stories, and Jesus was a good man with a lot of good ideas.

There’s a reason some pro-Gay theologians have said not to try to find Scriptural support for same sex relations/marriage. There just isn’t any.

What God has called an abomination the church now arrogantly calls a “gift from God,” and what God condemns they now celebrate with hubris. Good is evil and evil is good. They have usurped the authority of God and called him a liar. This is the beginning of the great falling away of many…not just in the PCUSA, but the whole church. This is a delusion, they believe what is false and they take pleasure in it.

“Then the glory of the Lord departed from the threshold of the temple and stood over the cherubim.” (‭Ezekiel‬ ‭10‬:‭18‬)

People have left the PCUSA for different reasons. I left because the PCUSA gives abortion coverage to pastors and their families in the medical plan. The fact that this denomination prefers terrorists to Isreal & endorses gay marriage proves that I was correct in withdrawing my financial support. If you are so inclined, you can also find peace of mind in a conservative denomination.

The PC(USA): The Woodstock Generation at prayer, a club for elderly white liberals. “Make love not war! Draft beer not students! Who took my hearing aid and nitro glycerin pills?”
Over 40 years ago, we knew all was not well in the Presbyterian camp when they created the Angela Davis (black activist who murdered a judge) Defense Fund. Then there was the hubbub over wages for tomato pickers while membership was clearly sliding. The leaders don’t seem to care about the continuing exodus, as long as it’s only conservatives who exit.

PC/USA is now a church in name, and IRS code, only. It is a community group meeting in a church like setting to worship something that is not defined by scripture. I can’t wait to see them vote on plural marriage.

i just love it when Angela Davis is brought up. Angela Davis did not murder anyone. And in fact when brought to trial was acquitted. Just more smear and lies from the ‘followers’. My guess is you know nothing of the facts of the case.

Yessiree the hubbub over tomato pickers. You just don’t get it. The tomato pickers live in slave conditions and in enslavement. Of course you want a BigMac or a Whopper at a certain price to allow growers to exploit. You are just an awful person.

I rejoice tonight with those who for the first time feel fully included in the church they love, and I grieve for those who feel excluded from the church they love.
I know how painful it can be to have your understanding of scripture and the voice of the Holy Spirit you hear be at odds with church doctrine and policy. I’ve been there, and on some issues I still am there. But I can honestly say that my faith has grown greatly because of the experience of worshipping and serving alongside those I disagree with. But we all have different needs. May God richly bless us all, beloved children every one, and show us the path where his will would take us.

The Christians in Syria and Afghanistan and Lebanon would trade places in a heartbeat while we harangue over same sex marriage..which of course they would never espouse… They are worried about their necks as well they should. The larger picture: will Christanity survive? And more important will they survive?

Now that we have finally thrown off the chains of 2000 + years of traditional Christian marriage, may I suggest it’s time to celebrate the pcusa’s coming out, so let’s bust out the booze, d-batteries, and the tour bus, and begin the pcusa’s “2015 SODOMY VICTORY TOUR”.
Along the way can be blasting song’s from the great bands like AC/DC, Alice in Chains, and who can forget the 1970’s great hit disco songs “Dancing Queen”, of course “I’m coming Out”.
We could all hear hard hitting sermons as we go from presbytery to presbytery from sea to shining sea from our very, very humble stated clerk, and our round robin moderator preaching from our now new “holy book of order” (book marked to the trust clause page), while we’re all hanging out of the windows saluting everyone with our driving fingers, letting the whole world know who’s in charge of marriage now in the pcusa, and no, it’s not God.

Um, three people most definitely did die – a judge, named Harold Haley, who had a shotgun taped to his neck, and two others. The guns involved in the incident were legally owned by Davis. Her defense was financed, in part, by the UPCUSA. Seriously. Google it.

I have always said, “it has to get worse before it gets better” and the worst is yet to come. The better will not arrive until the Second Coming.

Those Christ centered churches who continue their association with the PCUSA thinking they do not have to follow the new definition of marriage will sooner rather than later find themselves in a law suit, which they cannot win, with the first refusal to marry a gay couple.

If this vote does not serve as the “final straw” for those churches who believe they can continue to coexist in the PCUSA, their position on the Bible will not matter because they will be defined by those with whom they associate.

I have nothing but astonishment. The PCUSA is becoming nothing more than a social organization, a sort of Sunday Club where people get together and socialize, moving forward with the media led culture, progressively losing its footing in its originating document. I go to church to open my mind to the UNCHANGING word of God – wait a minute – did God change something? Or was it the father of lies (Satan) that infected the minds of the leaders and changed something?

**he Christians in Syria and Afghanistan and Lebanon would trade places in a heartbeat.**

They sure would with swords, ak47’s reading to Kill, Homosexuals, Lesbians and Transgendered which under Islam, the Holy Quran is permissible. In those Islamic nations, there is no tolerance for same sex anything unlike the USA.
I would say to the Gays, enjoy, because one day you will have to give an account to Christ, and by way, no lawyers, no Supreme Court, no anything, because every mouth will be stopped by Christ.

** Angela Davis* A Communist hiding behind the Constitution of the USA, but one day her and her ilk will be judged.

I left over a year ago, glad of the decision.

** Once again, Edmund Burke’s admonition about good people doing nothing sort of sums up the situation, in my opinion.**

And the marsh mellow so called Christians will one day be fried.

**The sad fact is that we can do nothing to stop the moral decay, but at the same time we can surely see and witness the nearness of Christ’s return!**

We, the elect born again, blood washed Believers in Christ living in the Holy Spirit, can Pray, praying without ceasing 1 Thess. 5, obeying the Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20) until Christ comes for His Elect in the Rapture.

I don’t think you understand what slavery means. Words are important. Do not misuse them.

The guns were stolen from Angela Davis. My cousin was one of the people murdered, but not by Angela Davis.

Today, liberals are celebrating the completion of their transformation of the PCUSA. It is a Pyhrric victory. The denomination will continue to shrink to numerical insignificance, matching the spiritual emptiness it has already achieved.

I do know what slavery means, and in fact in the last 5 years 10 people and 2 corporations have been convicted of violating anti-slavery laws in Florida.

But Gene, the primary purpose of marriage is procreation and the raising of children. Two flesh becoming one. The obvious next step for PCUSA is to be indifferent to whether children are raised by the complimentary genders or by people of the same gender. There is great harm to be seen from such indifference.

As for whether PCUSA is liberal, I suggest you spend some time on its website. The only time its positions differ from the current administration are when it is encouraging leftward movement. The organizational leadership does not reflect the diverse views of membership. Hence, membership will decline. It really is no different that MSNBC’s ratings.

Again, for the 10,000th time, what was everybody expecting? The PCUSA is, was, and remains a very minor sect at the start of this process, even more so, post. The organization is on path to slip below 1 mil in 5 years, it will vanish in 27 at current per year membership losses.
In another way, globally, for every 1 PCUSAer, there are 34,000 RC globally, 4,5000 Mormons, there are more Pentecostals alone in Lagos Nigeria than PCUSAers nationally. The PCUSA should be viewed as we view the Quakers or Unitarians. Insular, idiosyncratic, and irrelevant.

Does this rationalize or excuse outright apostasy, and the actions of geriatric stupid white liberals? Of course not, but a just some perspective.

Even if the PCUSA were a rock bed of Biblical orthodoxy, their management and operational incompetence and outright fiscal fraud is enough to keep the staff of the “Laymen” employed for the next 10 years. There will always be plenty to report and shed light into the eternal darkness and paganism that is the PCUSA.

James you labeled it perfectly. If you would like to see the poster boy for the new look PCUSA check out John Shuck’s website Religion for Life. Hit blog at the top of the front page and it will take you to his article for The Friendly Atheist titled “I’m a Presbyterian Minister Who does Not Believe in God” What’s funny in a dark way is the comments from presumably atheists who blast Shuck for wanting to “self identify” as Christian when he clearly doesn’t believe in any of the essential tenets of Christianity.The atheists have a clearer understanding of what the essential tenets of Christianity are than the leadership of the PCUSA who recently installed John as a Teaching Elder.

I think you’ve about covered it all in that post. CPUSA has no soul, and is dying. It won’t be long now.

I feel exultant! Those who have so long been demonized and vilified by the church are finally welcomed and embraced by it, just as Christ would have done.

While I understand that many are feeling wounded that their narrow understanding of Scripture has not been upheld, I am astonished by the anger, hatred, and vile coming from purported Christians! As for PCUSA being for “geriatric liberals,” 85% of all Americans under 30 support same sex marriage. Now that these controversial issues are behind us, we can focus–together–on true evangelism.

Charlotte, thank you for returning our collective focus the plight of our Christian brothers and sisters around the world. Even as we pray for them we must also act on their behalf to stop the forces of Evil assailing them and providing emergency physical aid to preserve life until peace comes. Maranatha…Come Lord Jesus. – Carmen

Art, have you written somewhere about your family’s personal experience of this horrific murder and what you see as the exoneration of Angela Davis? I think people would be honestly interested. – Carmen

Ann, I am sure that you mean well but this is just the start and not the end. It is optional today but tomorrow it will be mandatory.The depravity of the human spirit has no limitations when Jesus is replace with humanism.It is not what you and I think it is what Jesus commands of us.We are not in a popularity contest but we are in a relationship with Jesus Christ.
God bless , Jim Williams

When did Christ ever welcome and embrace sin? Never, he only ever called for repentance and turning away from sin. I agree that we shouldn’t demonize people, because we ourselves were once lost, but now are found only through grace. Our goal shouldn’t be to set ourselves alongside of popular culture, as Scripture says, but to evangelize, loving others by telling them about Christ.
Also, why do statistics matter? Over 60% of supposed Christians don’t believe that Christ is the only way to salvation, so saying that 85% support same sex marriage isn’t that hard to believe. The focus should be on the Scriptures, not sinful human beliefs.

Anne, let me offer a perspective that might temper your exultation. While you are happy that those “so long…demonized and vilified by the church are finally welcomed and embraced by it”, how are you planning to deal with the new class of demonized and vilified people — orthodox, conservative Presbyterians? If you have any doubts that this group is being demonized and vilified, I encourage you to read some of the articles by liberal bloggers in the PCUSA, or reports of statements and actions taken at presbytery meetings against conservative churches which are peaceably seeking to be dismissed from the PCUSA. Instead of being treated as brothers and sisters in Christ, they are viewed as enemies, and because presbyteries hold all the reins of power such conservatives are not simply vilified but oppressed financially and socially. Are you as “…astonished by the anger, hatred, and vile coming from purported Christians” on the liberal wing of the PCUSA?

You dismiss the biblically orthodox understanding of marriage in Scripture as “narrow,” implying that a broader interpretation which annuls the directly pertinent texts is somehow more true to God’s intention. Sometimes this may be the case, as in food laws. At other times, it is not. There is nothing inherently wrong with narrowness when it comes to truth. If it keeps us from straying from God’s will, it is a good thing; if it prevents us from following God’s will, it is evil. The key is determining which is which. Remember that Jesus said, “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” I’d hesitate to call Jesus narrow-minded in the manner you are describing those with whom you disagree, but he sure seems to fall in the camp of those setting strict limits on right and wrong. Otherwise, how do you account for his teaching in Matt 5 which intensifies the meaning of the Law beyond the lax understanding of many of the teachers of his day?

Finally, you offer what seems to me a “pollyannish” view of the future: “Now that these controversial issues are behind us, we can focus–together–on true evangelism.” Let me offer three predictions: 1) this decision to untether the PCUSA officially from the Scriptures and historic confessions will only lead to further controversies as the lobby groups shift toward legitimizing polyamory and other sorts of sexual couplings. As other “oppressed groups” are championed in our culture, voices in the PCUSA will take up the social justice argument on their behalf and claim that they must be recognized and their views “normalized” within the church. 2) You dream that liberals and conservatives will now finally be able to work “together” on true evangelism. But this demands that both groups have a common understanding of the gospel, and unfortunately such is not the case. I invite you to ask a number of liberal Presbyterians for their definition of the gospel by which to evangelize the world, and do the same for a number of conservative Presbyterians, and then compare the two. You might be mildly surprised….3) You seem to think that the “under 30” crowd will flock to the PCUSA, or at least be easy to recruit to membership now that the PCUSA has raised the rainbow standard openly. But facts prove otherwise. The UCC, Episcopal Church, and ELCA have all beaten the PCUSA to this new enlightenment by a number of years, and their membership numbers continue to show sharp decline “…now that these controversial issues are behind…” them. What uniqueness do you see in the PCUSA which would indicate any different future than the road being traveled by these other liberal denominations? This is especially troubling for a denomination that has had an annual net loss of members for 50 years, going back to 1965. Do you seriously believe that now that the PCUSA has embraced a view rejected by the worldwide church for 2000 years (and the Jewish people for 2000 years before that), suddenly its members will find the will and capacity to evangelize the lost? And with what message?

I am no prophet, so my predictions carry no divine weight; they are merely observations based on my understanding of Scripture and culture, as well as over 30 years of ordained pastoral work. But if there’s any truth to them, your exultation may be misplaced.

Tears and a prayer of lamentation are my only response to the end of the Presbyterian Church in which I was baptized over 60 years ago, and which I served as pastor for over 40 years. May God save a refugee remnant of the PCUSA and swiftly bury the corpse of the spiritually dead institution. I watch the hulk of ship of hypocrisy burn on the horizon and sink beneath below the worldly waves.

Although the outcome of the vote was not on doubt, it’s still sad to see it. As a denomination, the PCUSA has now officially aligned itself with secular culture. Those who still hold to the truth, yet remain in the PCUSA will have to focus on ministry through their local churches, and try to isolate themselves from the damaging changes this vote might entail.

Actually, I’m not an awful person; I am a missionary in a “Developing world” country where people would love to earn the wages of a U.S. tomato picker. The U.S. embassy here gets plenty of applications for emigration. But you miss the point. The point I was trying to make is that the PC(USA) would have done better to address the issue of declining and aging membership rather than pursue a liberal social agenda.

Maybe we should put PCUSA and its (not our) issues behind us and put our focus on what Jesus has called us individually and as the body to do. Fussing over their herisies is not part of the great commission.

Mateen: Your comments deserve a longer response and will get back with you when I return. The short answer is that I do not demonize anyone who thinks differently from me. I try always to respect others’ views, especially when it comes to interpretation of Scripture. In contrast, some in our church when discussing this topic stated that those of us who believed differently would “burn in hell.” Why does Carmen always suggest that those who think differently from her are “apostates?”

I see your point. If a person is still affiliated with the PCUSA though, focusing on the Great Commission is more of challenge because of the baggage of their lack of orthodoxy.

It’s all about the “green” isn’t it?

Interesting that yesterday, March 17th, St. Patrick’s Day, also coinsided with the arrival of a severe CME blast from the “sun” ??
This is a note I wrote a few years back concerning dialog on a blog that had several people in support of SSM:

There are some people who do not agree with my stance that God instructs us to follow His example of what a marriage union is. Using the multi-colored rainbow as a symbol for same-sex marriage also goes against the true meaning of what God intended.
(REVELATION 4) The picture of Jesus sitting in the throne room of heaven with a misty emerald green rainbow hanging over it (a poison to those who do not grasp The Word of God) is a reality. Some things we just do not understand and that is why we have Scripture to guide us. (…Find the “green” to be your life source!)
I also take a lot of badgering for my “narrow-minded thinking”. I’m a Christian. It comes with the territory.

And still today, I find it true: A man does not leave his mother and father to cling to his man and a woman does not cling to her woman as if a man.

This is not a “Marriage” to be found at the foot of the cross.

One thing is indeed clear post 14-F is that the PCUSA is wholly owned subsidiary of the greater LGBT lobby. As in the Pottery Barn. they do indeed own the process. I would counsel them to save their money, they have some mighty bills coming due and in general liberals needs to support their issues and causes, well “liberally”. Time to move along.

In the greater big-tent love fest that the PCUSA wants to be, there are some blind spots in their love.

-Jews, in general. -The State of Israel, -Employees, stock holders of H-P, Cat, Motorola, and I honestly forget who else they want to boycott. -Police, -Workers in the coal and carbon fuels industry. -Oh yes, the person the PCUSAers love to hate the most got an election mandate today in Israel, so this is a good day after all.

And yes, we do indeed have much to talk about going forward.

But Anne, you did in fact demonize who dare to follow Biblical teachings and those who don’t agree with you.

Indeed. Satan is afoot and working thru the PCUSA.

See the mainstream media celebrating with photos of men at the altar embracing and kissing.
It’s all so wrong.

The only way forward now is in the courts, of law, and public opinion. I DO NOT think for a moment that the louisville sluggars are going to let congregations leave under gracious dismissal with their property without either raping them financially, or outright telling to graciously get the hell out of the building.

It’s a whole new ball game now, the new “holy book of order” is now our scriptures, until I hear from our very, very humble stated clerk, or our round robin moderator that churches can leave under a resonable dismissal process, then prepare for all unholy hell to rein down on churches wanting to leave with their prorperty.
This is just the start.

I work in the medical industry. I just have to say it. I hope it will not be censured.

Please would the sweet, kind, bleeding heart liberal “Christians” answer me something. Explain to me what “god” you have in mind who blesses the beauty, love and purity of the act of ejecting sterile, life-giving DNA containing a complex genetic code of over 3 billion information units per cell into the very chute that eliminates the bodies worst and most disgusting waste? Doesn’t anyone else see insanity here??



22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools





“All she can do now is echo the voices of the world for she has abandoned the clarion call to bear faithful witness to the God who has clearly spoken on this matter.”

Dear Layman,

Maybe you know some other god. The God I know speaks very clearly in terms of love for the other, and just as clearly in terms of rejecting exclusion of the other.

I also know a God who speaks through his/her people who act in reverent and orderly ways. Our councils have prayed, deliberated, and voted — and have come to this conclusion. I trust that it is indeed God who has spoken through this government that we Presbyterians believe to be commended by Scripture itself.

Our concern now is to see how God will lead us to respond, and to interpret the action of the councils faithfully and lovingly to God’s people.

Grace and Peace,

The Rev. Reford B. Nash

This is what the LORD Almighty says: Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the Lord. They keep saying to those who despise me, The LORD says: “You will have peace.” And to all who follow the stubbornness of their own hearts they say: “No harm will come to you.” But which of them has stood in the council of the LORD to see or to hear his word? Who has listened and heard his word? Jeremiah 23:16-18 . . . They strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his wickedness. They are all like Sodom to me . . . v. 14

Not long ago, a friend of mine acknowledged that the country had turned a corner, and national legalization of same-sex marriage was inevitable. Then he say, “You know, deep down, everybody knows two men can’t be married to each other. We’ve just made a decision to pretend that they can.” The PCUSA has now joined in that pretense.

God only speaks from HIS Word, The Holy Bible something you have no idea about, just acting like a liberal, what else is new.

They are enjoying sin for a season, than, wiped out like Sosom.

They are enjoying sin for a season, one day to suffer for their sins.

I read these comments and do not see love, or maybe it is love in the form of grief. They will know we are Christians by our love. We are to outdo one another in showing honor. Love is patient and kind. It does not insist upon its own way. It rejoices in the truth. If a comments section were a manifestation of Christ’s sacrificial love and a reflection of Biblical love, even in the midst of deep grief, especially then, that would be a powerful witness.

Not to be crude, but I shoot urine and ‘seed’ out the same tube, as do all men. What of it?

Dear Rev. Nash,

What about the elder commissioners who have considered, prayed, and deliberated about this matter in the PCA and have come to the same conclusion that the church as always concluded? – marriage is between a man and a woman. Did they rightly discern God’s will because they too prayed, deliberated, and voted in a Presbyterian manner? And if so, does this make God schizophrenic?

Scott, the penis was obviously designed by the Creator to do both and that’s you can do both. The rectum was not designed by the Creator for insertion, nor did the Creator make it a reproductive organ. Not only that but every good doctor knows that and so do people in the porn industry, and so do a lot of gay males know it who have engaged in anal sex. I know this comes off as crude- but it is true that anal sex is high risk sex, as evidenced by the passing of blood from rectal bleeding (rectal tissue thinner and not near as durable as the vagina.) So approximately 2% of population account for 50% of AIDS cases and a lot of that is related to anal sex. There are other problems with anal sex that will not be mentioned here.

Scott, I have always thought you were a little off, now you have just confirmed it.

There is nothing that can be done to restore the PC(USA). So why do you stay? There are multitudes in the world who need to hear the Good News and develop a relationship with the Living Christ. Why not leave this denomination and devote your energies to the cause to which God is calling.

Does God get a choice of whether God is conservative or liberal, or have you already made that choice for him? Consevatives can be somewhat presumptuous about God’s opinions.

Jesus said: I am the Way and the Truth and the Life! No one comes to the Father except through me! Jesus is also the Son and Creator of this world/universe we live in! He also said, marriage is between and man and a woman, period. End of story! Salvation is only through the Lord Jesus Christ! Any other interpretation or church doctrine leads to the ultimate death!!

Which God do you worship? Certainly not the one described in the Bible!!

I will not address you as a Reverend because you apparently are not a man of God. The God I know created a man and woman in the Garden of Eden. He did not create two men or two women to live there. Do you even know why He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? He intended for this world to have children. Would you please explain to me how two men together will produce children or how two women will produce children? READ YOUR BIBLE!!ENOUGH SAID!!

I agree but it’s hard to remain when there is no support for the greater denomination. Frankly, the respect is gone. Oh would it not be wonderful if we had more local rule and much less of a connection with the denomination itself. Our members are in our pews largely because of the immediate community. The leadership fails to see that, fails to realize that, aside from clergy, how little the support really is. Were they serious, much more consideration would be given to the structure and a minimal part the membership really plays.

You misrepresent the crisis, possibly accidently. A major issue here is whether some apostate Presbyterians cheer, support, or otherwise encourage active homosexuals at the Altar of God. Yes, everyone is welcome in the church pews—all are sinners. A higher standard is expected when approaching the Altar, or preaching The Word.

In my state, leftist democrats took over the leadership of local Presbyterian Churches nearly 20 years ago. This is not a knee jerk statement, as I’m involved in politics in a rural state, and know these people personally. The elders, sessions, etc. are dominated by cunning socialist-Marxists who run for office on democrat ticket, and who take marching orders from state democrat central committee of my state. They’ve planned these unfortunate political/religious maneuvers for many years.

I’m a little ‘off’? Do you have two, um, tubes?

Mr Jeffreys’ point is basically he thinks something is icky and thus God wouldn’t want it.

Nope, my point is that God did not build the rectum for insertion. If He did then why is anal sex such a risky behavior? On another note, feces is far more dangerous than urine. All feces has bacteria, most urine does not. My mother said when she was a child it was common to pour urine in the ear for an ear infection. I’m not aware of poop being used in such a manner, beyond one recent phenomena.

No I did not, Daisy. Please reread my response.

Let me address just a few of your observations. As you so succinctly said, “The key is determining which is which” in terms of discerning the truth. Therein lies the rub. While I totally respect your interpretation of Scripture, you apparently do not respect mine. My overall problem with “inerrantists” (I’m not saying you are one) is that they already pick and choose which scriptures to follow yet profess they do not. They like to eat bacon, so they think that “food laws” in Leviticus are OK to violate.(Science tells us that the reason for avoiding pork was just trichinosis, so we can follow science on this one and eat away!) They have a mortgages on their homes, so usury –charging interest–once deemed an absolute sin by Christians, is now OK. Some, not all, believe that women are no longer chattel and should be engaged in the ministry and leadership of the church, so they ignore Paul’s caveats. In short, this is why I am troubled when one side claims to have a hotline to God through their interpretation of Scripture. I refer you to Dr. Mark Achtemeir’s writings for a Biblical basis for same sex marriage. Reasonable–and devout–minds can differ on this subject.

As for renewed growth for PCUSA, I prefer to be optimistic. Now that silly internecine warfare on this issue is over, we can and should focus on the greater tasks God has for us. Christians are dying because of their faith. That really puts all of this in perspective, doesn’t it? God calls us to be greater and not indulge in the gay bashing, hateful speech displayed by purported Christians (not you!) on this message board.

Our presbytery is threatening to fire our pastor and dissolve our session just for having the conversation about “gracious separation”. There is no grace and there is no forbearance. Just mean-spirited vindictiveness.

even though court rulings are going the way of departing churches, louisville thinks they have won it all now, so there’s nothing to stop them, the flood gates are open for churches wanting to leave, and they will do anything, at any expense to keep the cash cow churches, you know the ones that pay most of the bills from leaving.

OK, since we are getting to facts here I’ll add some medical FACTS. Again, I hope I am not censured as these facts are not often provided to the lay public since they don’t fit the liberal agenda.

1-Anal intercourse produces rectal microtears 100% of the time (source major medical school urology department).
2-The rectal mucosa is thin and was clearly designed for use as a one way street. That is why microtears are universal with anal intercourse and why anal intercouse is the most common way AIDS is sexually transmitted. By contrast the vaginal tube was designed as a multi-use organ and is thick and muscular with intrinsic lubrication as appropriate for use on the front end of a pregnancy and can thin out and allow the passage of a fully developed baby at the end of pregnancy. (source: Albert Sabin, co developer of the polio vaccine with Jonas Salk).
3-To contract AIDS infected blood and infected semen requires direct access to the recipient’s blood stream, which is provided by anal microtears (again Dr. Sabin).
4-So I ask again, with respect, for proponents to please point out how the Bible shows that God blesses this behavior and further how anyone can construe it is Biblically on an equal footing with normal sex realtions and is worthy of validation in church.

I’m with you, Nash, and also have the impression that we don’t mean the same Person when we say “God.”

I guess that we will see a new type of member within the Presbyterian church–“Cafeteria Presbyterians”–They will accept those things that they believe in and reject those things that they do not believe in. I wonder what this will mean for the church.

Respectfully, I observed more of a results driven process than one of true discernment. Those who favored gay marriage politically found it easy to convince themselves that God would approve it as well, writing off scripture as limited to time and place. Are you aware of any elder who opposed SSM politically but concluded that SSM was divinely blessed? I would be surprised. PCUSA has become an extension of the political left.

My brothers and sisters in Christ as a newcomer to the denomination this has been a disappointment to me. The wave of supposed popular opinion has made its way into the theological discussions where the PCUSA has changed their policies to the fad of the day. Secular laws meant for EQUAL protection not SPECIAL protections under the law have been used to coerce through a perceived threat of expensive and national litigations while governmental provisions already exist for same sex unions without needing the church or churches where in truth biblically such unions are prohibited. This decision is a result of a trend nationally of government overreach into the private affairs of individual beliefs and liberties. Rather than the influence of the church on governmental matters as has often been the case in recent history we have seen a secular government imposing broad litigation on matters that are clearly private amoung individual Christian denominations and parishoners prohibiting the free exercise of individuals who may not believe in pre conceived notions of a “new morality”. The idea of separation of church and state is a two may door, governmental authority cannot impose nor establish a religion or beliefs against an individual or groups of individuals regardless of what that religion may be. Litigants and government can no more tell us what to believe than our next door neighbor as back door measures have been taken to coerce or threaten individuals with limelight exposure in media and lawsuits. As a proud presbyter I will never leave my denomination nor my congregation until the good lord as called me, this decision is a disappointment, but given the set of circumstances most denominations are under at the moment I can see why it was made. This decision I am sure was not one done out of regard for correction of biblically sinful behavior, but as a stop gap measure due to a dangerous secular inquisition into private traditional religious beliefs amoung denominations, congregations, and individuals.

I disagree. The National Council of Churches and the World Council of Churches have long been Marxist/Leninist and the recent decisions to legitimize the homosexual “Quest for Normalcy” further prove the leftist agenda as simply divide and comquer. When there are finally so many warring factions that none make up over 10%, a strong unified force will sweep through and stabilize the chaos similiar to the Communist revolution in 1917. Religion is exceedingly undesirable to Communism or to any centrally led system (unless itself a theocracy) as it gives the people the option for a different drummer other than the official rhetoric.

You are absolutely correct, sir. One must look at the last 50 years to understand how and why we got to where we are today. For example, today’s chaos must be traced to the failed attempts to unify the north (UPCUSA) and south (PCUS) factions in the 1950s. PCUS churches sounded alarm bells then, but the southern denomination was slowly populated by activists and radicals, over the next two decades, prompting the conservative PCUS churches to bolt and form the PCA. This left the PCUS in a weakened state — too weak to oppose the merger — which occurred ten years later, about 1983. How many of us knew, in 1983, that our PCUS churches had a FULL YEAR to ratify the merger or reject it? At the time, I was teaching adult Sunday school and serving on three standing committees, and I did not know. It was never mentioned! Here we were, a large, wealthy, conservative church, and we were never told by the pastors or the session that we could “opt out”! Since then, the news has been all bad. The American flag was removed from our sanctuary in 1982, the new hymnbook (banning so many of our favorite hymns) was adopted without a vote in 1984, but those were minor matters contrasted with what was to come (abortion rights, divestment in South Africa, interference in the nation’s foreign policy, “re-imagining” scripture, etc.). And now we are here. The activists and radicals, like the radical movements we have seen in Asia and the Mid-East, are ultra-patient and (correctly) see history through the prism of very long timelines. Right now, agendas are being prepared for 10, 20, and 30 years from now, and most (and maybe all) of the good-hearted moderates and liberals who post here don’t even know. They certainly don’t appreciate what they have helped unleased on the denomination they love. Long after we are gone, the PCUSA (or, I should say, its successor organization) will be debating Christ’s divinity and other topics that we view as engraved in stone and central to our reformed theology. Ladies and gentlemen, make no mistake about it: Everything is on the table now.

Good and accurate summary of the decline of Presbyterian denomination. Interesting you mention 1983, at the peak of the Cold War and Communist expansion across the globe. Presbyterians were in bed with World Council of Churches, and other far left groups, hysterically begging USA to ‘back down’ to Communism. Also Presbyterians, along with radical leftist groups, were actually helping Communist violent expansion in Africa, Asia and Central America, while undermining USA efforts to thwart the imminent threat. Many of those far leftist activists still sit in Presbyterian pews, planning their next dangerous hair brained, almost suicidal agenda. These people are dangerous on a secular level and spiritual level.

Great post. While you are accurate on your observations and spiritual foundation, you must consider we are in the End Times. According to scripture, the ‘world’ and ‘our Christian church’ will suffer many calamities. God fearing Christians must stay true to scripture, and not be surprised or overly distraught by these ‘worldly confusing events.’ More troubling events will happen in the near future.

St. Patrick’s Day, 2015. “A Day That Will Live in Infamy.” It wasn’t enough that the largest Presbyterian denomination in the US (PCUSA) had approved the ordination of practicing gays and lesbians in 2011, radically overturning 4,000 years of Judeo-Christian teaching and practice. Now marriage itself has been turned on its head. The state can do what it wants, even amending its own constitution, should it see fit. (If same-sex marriage becomes the law of the land, so be it). In the Church of Jesus Christ, however, no such liberty exists. He is the Supreme Law-Giver, Head, Savior and King of the Church – King and not President, one might note. Let’s pray for our Presbyterian friends that they would soon abandon this (PCUSA) apostate body.

Dear Rev. Nash, the loving thing to do would be to call people to repentance and faith (obey the Gospel) rather than to worry about how you look in the culture’s eyes. Knowing that this lifestyle is clearly condemned in the Bible and as a pastor, not speaking out clearly against it is a tragedy. This does not mean condemning the person, it means condemning the sun and offering the repentant sinner restoration through Jesus Christ. I pray for you and your congregants as well as the PCUSA. May God shine his light in every dark place that all might be saved!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AJTo5_xcAQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Accurate, succinct observation. Leftists and worldly types have used and abused the Presbyterian label to pursue their own personal, political and worldly feelings and opinions. We’re all sinners, but must try very hard to stay true to scripture, not follow what hair brained elite Presbyterian leaders in their echo chamber social circles tell us. I left the Presbyterian Church USA several years ago and glad I did.

I support the PCUSA’s decision. I think this is a chance to truly share the gospel and Christ’s commandment of love with everyone who is seeking. This new ratification still allows conservative congregations to maintain their current policies, but just allows progressive congregations to continue to offer marriages for everyone. I understand there is disagreement and I pray everyone can graciously move forward.

Dear Caleb: As Christians, we should be true to Scripture. It does not support same-sex marriage.

2 KINGS 17:14-15
But they would not listen and were as stiff-necked as their fathers, who did not trust in the LORD their God. They rejected his decrees and the covenant he had made with their fathers and the warnings he had given them. They followed worthless idols and themselves became worthless. They imitated the nations around them although the LORD had ordered them, “Do not do as they do,” and they did the things the LORD had forbidden them to do.

Thanks for your comments as to how Christians should respond. Unfortunately, most comments posted here are based on a misunderstanding and apparent lack of knowledge of the circumstances–the culture and context–of when the Bible was put into words. Interpretations change as new information and knowledge are gained. The idea of inerrancy, for example, is a fairly recent “doctrine” in the history of Christianity.

CALEB…
“Graciously move forward”. BAH! You want the evil icing on the cake as well as the layers beneath which are the foundation of God’s truth as revealed to us through holy scripture.

I have been in the Presbyterian Church for sixty-three years. To my knowledge all people have been welcome to worship. When I hear and read that finally, the church has accepted and made feel welcome the gay lesbian community, I cringe. Any unwelcome feelings, to me, are more perceived by the person “Feeling” that way.
Regarding the church, according to the Book of Confessions and the foundation upon which the church has been built, with the new amendment to the Book of Order is now in conflict with the Book of Confessions and the very premise this church has been built upon. First and foremost, it is declared that the word of God and Jesus are the foundation of the church. Much has been made about Jesus never said this or that. Unfortunately, these are the people who will cherry pick and twist scripture to fit the political climate of the times in which we live. God is very specific, the Book of Confessions is very specific as to the definition of a marriage. The church can change the Book of Order to reflect the current agenda of the gay/lesbian community and liberals, however, the church cannot change what God has said. As a church we accept what the apostles have said, so, do not let anyone tell you differently, that men wrote the bible, not God. The foundation of the church is God wrote the bible through men filled with the Holy Spirit.
As is recorded in Acts, are you going to follow God or the word of man. I choose God and hope you will find your way to him as well.
Blessings to you

My baby
Your article is so helpful for me,i like it,thank you!