PCUSA can stand by Biblical truth and still love those who don’t believe the same
Posted Tuesday, July 28, 2009
Re: PCUSA committee seeks input from members on the marriage debate
Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
I will tell you that this entire discussion saddens me. No matter what the results are, some of our brothers and sisters will feel harmed by the decision. Some will fight for what they believe is a right to marriage and against what they think is an injustice created by the church. Others will fight for what they believe is the Biblical truth. In that end, we can’t have it both ways.
Given that, I will start by saying I don’t think there is any question that the Bible teaches us that marriage is between a man and a woman. No matter what term we use, it’s all the same. If you simply change the term to civil unions, it is still suppose to be a marriage in every way as God has created it. So, how can we say anything except what we are led by God to say, through the Bible and that is that marriage is simply between a man and a woman and all other pretenses are false.
The next question is how do we help our brothers and sisters from both sides of this issue? There will be anger, pain and disgust by many. We do it through inclusion, through love and through grace. We open our doors to everyone, without judgment and say to everyone that we are called by God to serve you. We say that we are called by God to love you. We say to each and every person regardless of their position that we all sinners, but we must strive everyday to live up to the example and commands that Christ has given us, through his life and through the Bible.
From a personal note, I will tell you that one of the most wonderful people that I have ever met in my life was my Aunt Barber. Though she was gay, I loved her with all my heart and she loved me just as much. I tell you this because she knew that I didn’t agree with gay marriage, but she also knew that I would never judge her. As she was on her last days on this earth, I had the honor of sitting with her and holding her hand. I will never forget the words she said to me. “Dale, for all these years you have stood by me, when everyone else turned away from me. That is the greatest gift that God could ever give another person. Pure love, by the grace of God.” Several days later she passed away. I have tried to never forget the importance that love and grace must play in all of our lives and how we treat each other.
I believe that our denomination can stand by what we know is the Biblical truth and still love those who don’t believe the same. We should say with one voice that we are led by God and His Word. That marriage is only between a man and a woman, but because we are led by God in everything we do, without judgment, we will love our brothers and sisters regardless of their view and stand by them with that love. Dale Dempsey, elder Church of the Redeemer Snellville, Ga.
Civil unions belong to the state. Marriage belongs to the church
Posted Monday, July 27, 2009
Dear Friends and fellow Presbyterians,
This letter contains my counsel to you in dealing with a thorny issue which has plagued our denomination for too many years. It is gradually destroying us and needs to be dealt with and put to rest.
Our country is the product of God fearing people. Our Constitution with its Bill of Rights is the product of our God fearing founders, many of whom were reformed Christians. Our PCUSA Book of Order closely parallels our civil constitution.
Many of my friends believe we now live in a post Christian nation. Our heritage and laws, interpreted by the various Supreme Court ruling generally still reflect our common Biblical background.
The problems and opportunities lie in our belief that our laws should protect and promote our faith origin. One of the conflicts lies in the separation of church and state and how that has evolved during the 20th century. Another involves our commitment to “freedom” and “equality.”
From a civil equality standpoint, I believe that committed couples whether hetero or homo should enjoy the same protection under the civil laws. This right of joint equality is not spelled out in our constitution but seems acceptable to me and certainly reflects our Biblical origin. Thus I have no argument with same sex civil unions that are recognized by the state.
On the other hand, marriage is a religious institution. Our “freedom and equality” must be defined by our historic reformed Biblical belief system. Freedom to relate and behave in the church is on a higher and spiritual level than the civil laws. The word “marriage” is one imbedded in the Christian faith and the church. Husband and wife are religious terms whereas “partner” is a civil term. Biblical marriage is specifically reserved for a permanent one man and one woman relationships blessed by the church. It is one of the Holy Sacraments and not to be altered or defined by the society in which the church dwells. Historically, marriage, by definition is “Christian.” It should be kept that way.
I therefore believe that we can and should support same sex civil unions and also heterosexual marriage. Each should be recognized by the civil laws as providing identical equality under the civil law.
The church however must distinguish its self as set apart from the civil laws and society in general: We are a “called out” people.
The church must speak to society, not listen to it when it comes to matters of faith.
Therefore marriage, remembering that this implies Christian marriage, must be treated differently from civil unions within our denominational polity.
Ministers must not confuse the two and the church must define these two terms as clearly separate. If our union is to survive, we must put finality to this contentious problem.
Ministers must not be allowed to perform civil unions or allow our sanctuaries to be used for civil unions. Let the justices of the peace do their work in the civil courthouse. This is the responsibility of the state. The church currently does not and must not in the future equate a same sex civil union to a heterosexual (Christian) marriage
Ministers must be authorized by the church to perform only heterosexual marriages.
“Give to Caesar that which is Caesar’s and give to God, that which is God’s.” Civil unions belong to the state. Marriage belongs exclusively to the church, the body of Christ. John Buckingham MD MPH MBS Professor of Family Medicine
Presbyterians should never attempt to approve what God condemns
Posted Monday, July 27, 2009
Dear friends on the committee,
Thank you for your time and thought given to an important issue in our culture today. And thank you for the opportunity to address the issue. You have asked for input on the place of covenanted same-gender partnerships in the Christian community. This is my considered response.
When approaching such matters, we need to ask several questions, such as:
- What counsel has God given us through Scripture? Carefully studying the Word, one finds absolutely no approval given for sexual practice outside the marriage of a man and a woman. I chafed against that ethic as a teen and young adult, when I certainly would have enjoyed an “anything goes” morality, and yet I abided by God’s Word. As a married man, I still must check an animal impulse to be indiscriminately sexual with various women. And I do hold that impulse at bay, because God’s will as found in God’s Word demands it. In Scripture, homosexual practice is never permitted and always condemned. Thus, Presbyterians should never attempt to approve what God condemns – or to encourage, promote, benignly allow or make provisions for sexual sin.
- What is the good and right thing to do? In any situation, there are many possible responses. We people of the Word must discern and then do what is the good and right response. We humans do not declare what is good. It would be a moral disaster if “good” were to be determined as whatever we want it to be at the time. Or if “good” were what most people are doing now. Or if “good” were what is least difficult. For Christians, good is what God declares it to be – even if we in our limited abilities fail to understand exactly why what God says is good is supremely good. We are being told nowadays that “good” is permissive, as if it is “good” to let people do whatever they choose to do and not to question their choices. That is a gross error, the product of a fallen mindset. It is not God’s way! Presbyterians should not conform their moral practices and counsel to a fallen and sinful world, but should be heralding God’s goodness in a countercultural way that runs against a false and harmful streak in society. It is good to obey God, not to rewrite godly morality to approve what God has condemned.
- What is the loving thing to do? Again, Christians are being led to confuse bland permissiveness with love. The truly loving thing to do is what God has called us to do. God’s laws are not arbitrary. God’s commands direct us toward what is ultimately most healthy and beneficial for ourselves and others, as well as what ultimately glorifies God. We do not love others when we act as if we don’t care that they are hurting themselves, hurting others, and grieving God through their contrary sexual pursuits. We do not love others by setting up faux “covenants” so that they may feel confident and encouraged to continue in sexual sin. We do not love others by failing to warn them about the consequences of their actions, but instead just let them continue in sin to their own destruction. For us to display such laissez-faire attitudes and actions would be negligent, not loving! The loving thing to do is to tell God’s truth, to set appropriate boundaries, and to discourage violations of God’s law in every way possible. The truly loving thing is the difficult thing in today’s world: lovingly saying no.
With these three questions in mind, I urge your committee to be scrupulously Biblical in your work. Presbyterians don’t need more secular sociologists or political activists trying to twist Scripture like a putty nose to misdirect the life of the church. We need courageous people of God who abide by God’s Word to speak a clear and compelling word to our denomination, that we firmly choose to follow God’s way and not the ways of the world, that we will live with the values of the Age to Come, and not the fallen mores of this age.
Please, do not make provision for sin by appearing to justify the same-sex sexual activity that would be integral to so-called covenanted same-sex partnerships. In love for others and in faithfulness to God, we need to discourage sin, not provide false cover for it.
Please, do address the need for helping those caught in the anarchy of sexual relationships, which is a symptom of our alienation from God, our neighbor, and ourselves. Persons with homosexual inclinations have an achingly difficult path of discipleship and faithfulness. While those with heterosexual affections must discipline their sexual urges to be expressed only within a marriage relationship, those with homosexual affections must never express them. In a sex-saturated society, such godly discipline is all the harder. It is harder yet if respected voices fail to support the discipline and if no one walks beside the strugglers to offer strength and prayer.
Presbyterians must do more than simply say “No homosexual sex!” – which we must say to be faithful to our God. We must also stand beside our brothers and sisters who struggle with same-sex attractions, offering them nonsexual friendships, honoring their achievements in remaining chaste, praying for them, providing encouragement and accountability in their discipleship, and just generally struggling beside them in their quest to be faithful to God by refraining from falling into practices that God condemns.
It would be a tragedy if the outcome of your committee’s work were to be an official statement that basically would say to our homosexual brothers and sisters, “Go and sin some more.” Instead, we would be well-served if you supply what God has said, what is right and good, and what is truly loving. James D. Berkley, minister of Word and sacrament Bellevue, Wash.
No wiggle room: We can’t call same-sex unions ‘marriage’
Posted Monday, July 27, 2009
Dear Committee members:
I’ve read some of the responses already sent to you, and many of the respondents have already done a fine job of summarizing what God has said in His word on the subject. In reviewing Scripture from both the Old and New Testaments, there is really no way to make a case that sexual relations between people of the same gender is ever okay with God. So – sin is sin, and we are all guilty of something – if not something as overt and “in-your-face” as unrepentant homosexual behavior, then perhaps the sin of self-righteousness, judgment or pride for judging those who do. At any rate, there really is no wiggle room that could suggest going the next step and condoning same-sex unions by calling them ‘marriage’ should even be considered.
Rather, we need to embrace our responsibility to bring healing to all people who suffer from the effects of sin in their lives. I used to believe that homosexuality was a condition people were born with, like having brown hair or being tall. I read a wonderful book that opened my eyes to the truth, and since then have known of many people who’ve been healed of this condition and restored to a place of purity and holiness before God. What an amazing God of grace – He heals us if we ask Him!
I know that each of you takes the responsibility of serving on this committee very seriously. And I also know that a great deal of time and effort must be invested to thoroughly review all available resources on this subject. I urge you to please take a small part of that time and read chapter 19 of the book by Doris M. Wagner entitled How to Minister Freedom. Chapter 19, entitled “Freedom from Homosexual Confusion” was written by a man named David Foster, who was a practicing homosexual for many years.
My heart ached as he related his story of the besetting sin that had taken hold of his life, but then the overwhelming mercy of God that brought him back. A brief quotation:
“In the revelation of His grace, as He forgives me again and again and again, my heart has been transformed and knit to His. I no longer see Him as an adversary. I see Him as love. And that revelation has struck a mighty blow against the rebellion that used to reign in my heart. He has taught me how to put to death that which feeds the old broken self, and how to feed and nurture the new creation that I have been made by Christ. In doing so, the heterosexuality that had always lain dormant within me was finally able to blossom and take its place as my true identity.”Rather than working to create a construct to make a life of sin a bit more comfortable, let’s be part of the solution and encourage anyone whose sexual identity is being distorted to find freedom in Jesus Christ! Carol Kessler
Actions of PCUSA leadership have damaged denomination
Posted Monday, July 27, 2009
Re: ‘Presbyterians’ heavy-handed tactics undermine constitution’
The recent flurry of non-Biblical actions taken by the PCUSA –clearly demonstrated by the misguided heavy-handed and very inappropriate actions by Paige McRight, leader of the Central Florida Presbytery –make it impossible for one who wants to follow Christian principles to remain in the PCUSA.
The results of many such actions of the PCUSA leadership have so damaged the status of the denomination that members, as well as churches, are leaving in droves. It is impossible to understand why the Word of God is being ignored, or selectively interpreted, to allow ungodly things to be accepted within the denomination rather than holding fast to the principles contained in the Bible. The Bible was divinely provided to serve as the one and only standard for God’s people to follow.
The destruction of a single church is a terrible mistake. The same action resulting in the departure of numerous churches and a multitude of members is nothing short of evil. There will be a price to pay by those who condone such actions and support the practices that cannot be accepted by those who are committed to follow the Word rather than to compromise with the ungodly things that are being introduced into the denomination.
When the PCUSA leadership attempts to avoid any responsibility for such massive failures by stating that the elders representing individual churches make the decisions through the voting process, true and utter failure is being admitted by the leaders of the PCUSA.
There is no way that this once great and God-fearing denomination, with which I have been associated for more than six decades, can survive under the current direction. J.R. McAllister Former teacher, deacon, chairman of deacons, elder, trustee and more
Is abortion of unborn babies included?
Posted Monday, July 27, 2009
Re: Martin: Are Joshua’s victories cause for celebration?
“Is discipleship the deliberate taking of life – not only soldiers, but women and children and the elderly?,” she asked. “How can we be a light to the nations is we have no qualms about destroying them?”
I assume Martin would also include the abortion of unborn babies. Bob Gant
Stop wasting time, funds with debate
Posted Tuesday, July 21, 2009
To the committee:
I believe that “covenanted same-gender partnerships” have no place in the Christian community. And I’m getting tired of constantly answering the question. It is so self-evident to me that no honest reading of the Bible can condone marriage between homosexuals that I cannot understand why the issue continually absorbs our denomination’s leadership. The practice is contrary to Scripture and our constitution. Period.
In a service of Christian marriage a lifelong commitment is made by a woman and a man to each other, publicly witnessed and acknowledged by the community of faith. That’s it. That’s what God intends for us, and no creeping pressure for acceptance by gays should take our eye off the ball of what we’re called to do – and not to do – as Christians.
The pressure being brought by gay activists in the political realm should not dull our understanding of these truths and cause us to waste valuable resources debating an issue that is so obviously settled by the words of the Bible. I need not remind you that many other problems affect our denomination and cause it to hemorrhage members each year. The numbers are disappointing, to say the least.
Nevertheless, I cannot resist pointing out that constantly rehashing this debate does absolutely nothing to help stem the losses. Gays and free-thinkers you might think will be attracted by our sudden “reimagining” of the Bible’s proscriptions on homosexual unions will not flock to our pews. Likewise, no flood of new congregants will sprint to our doors following even a final, definitive, full-throated confession of our intention to be faithful to God’s word and reject the propriety of gay marriage. I submit to you that it is this constant re-argument that most depresses membership. PCUSA’s leadership cannot let it go. And potential parishioners see a confused, dizzy denomination at war with itself and trying to log-roll a change to a very basic matter.
That said, some interesting questions emerge for our churches in states that have, at least for the moment, approved same-sex marriages, whether by legislation or by judicial fiat. What do they do in Vermont or New Hampshire churches when two “married” gay men join the church and want to take part in “couple’s dinners” and marriage counseling, etc? How do we love these people as Christians while rejecting what they think is a legitimate union? Do we just ignore it? Do we take them aside and tell them to keep that “marriage stuff” on the down-low on Sundays? What is our duty to them as sinning Christians different from our duty to the rest of us as sinning Christians?
I don’t have a complete answer, but in general I believe that we remind them that the Bible does not condone their behavior, any more than it condones adultery. We continue to hate the sin and love the sinner. And we donate the money that we waste debating this issue into groups like Love Won Out that seek to help homosexuals that want to abandon that lifestyle.
Thanks for reading my thoughts.
Joseph R. Duffus Gainesville, Va.
Iowa pastor’s finest hour
Posted Tuesday, July 21, 2009
Dear Mr. Pehrson (stated clerk of Prospect Hill Presbytery),
I carefully read your letter found on page 22 of the June 2009 issue of The Layman in which you said: “the issue and struggles in the Denison church have little to do with theology and more to do with power and control.”
It seems obvious that Rev. Brian Rihner observed the eroding of Biblical standards in the Presbyterian Church USA and that represents “theology,” not “power and control.”
You stated that the worship attendance and contributions have increased since Rihner’s departure. Jeff Sis, one of the eight elders, reported 40 family units have departed and this church may not recover. Which account should I believe?
Did Rihner misappropriate funds? If he did wouldn’t you have reported that?
It appears that the Presbytery violated its own Rules of Discipline by refusing to allow Brian Rihner to face his accusers. Mr. Sis reported the Presbytery acted like a “bully.”
Your procedures claim that departing churches are to be treated with the “compassion of Christ’s love.” Why have they faced extreme harassment and threats of legal actions?
Perhaps Pastor Rihner was removed because he informed his congregation that Amendment 08-B (opposes Bible standards) might soon be adopted.
Pastor Rihner’s courageous act may eventually turn out to be his finest hour. Ronald Sweany Annapolis, Md.
Still a child of God
Posted Tuesday, July 21, 2009
I know someone who occasionally volunteers at Planned Parenthood, so I know one of their biggest lines of reason “It’s just a blob of flesh.” A short time ago I read a story about Abraham Lincoln. During a debate he asked the man “How many legs would a dog have if you called the tail a leg?” The man responded “Five.” Mr. Lincoln said “Four – calling the tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg.” Neither does calling a child of God a blob of flesh make it one. Mike Noller Trenton,Texas
PCUSA must wake up, seek forgiveness
Posted Monday, July 20, 2009
I am an ordained Elder and Deacon, current Clerk of Session and an Elder member of our Presbytery Committee on Ministry (COM). I teach the Bethel series and a class on “Faith Fundamentals.” I also have worked with Presbyterian Reformed Ministries International (PRMI) teaching on the person and work of the Holy Spirit with the Dunamis Project. I offer this background only to try to show some degree of intellectual and, I pray, spiritual competence.
It is incredulous to me that our denomination has, I believe, chosen to abandon scriptural teachings about human sexuality and how God has designed us to relate to Him and to one another. There are ample passages of Scripture both in the Old and New Testaments in which God has clearly told us that He abhors the abominable acts of people of the same sex having sexual relations. Those who would have us believe that the love stressed by our Lord Jesus during His ministry has somehow overshadowed or negated the Biblical admonition against such relations are giving short shrift to the Word and its message to us. In my pursuit of Scriptural understanding, I have read several seminary texts on theology and on the origins and sources of the Codices of the Bible. I have tried to keep an open mind, yet have only had my early understanding reinforced as I do more research and delve deeper into the Word and prayer. It is easy to rationalize one’s desires to emphasize one area that may seem attractive to one’s persuasions or to de-emphasize or even deny the legitimacy of other areas in an attempt to justify one’s passions. We do not have a right to use a redacting pen on the written Word of Our Lord. He has told us that we were created in His image. This statement has been interpreted often, and I believe accurately, to mean that He knows our passions, our weaknesses, our strengths, and every facet of our beings, yet He tells us the only proper relations are between one man and one woman. We are aliens in a perverted world. We are to be “in the world, but not of the world.” We are Christians who have been told that having seen Jesus, the Christ, we have seen the Father. Christ was exposed to all the same passions we are and yet resisted. As a broken people, we may not be strong enough to be able to withstand the pressures of evil, but we can and should recognize it for what it is. To do otherwise is to succumb to the evil rather than to strive for what is good and righteous.
Nowhere does Scripture tell us Jesus let those he came into contact with “off the hook.” He confronted their sins, revealed their behavior for what it was where He deemed necessary, and chastised them to “go and sin no more.”
To many like me, it appears we are following a similar pattern as that of Israel in Biblical times. We go through periods of reformation and then backslide to the point of debauchery. Have we no memory of God’s way of responding to the sins of Israel (this can be read as our sins)? Are we blind to the way civilizations fall when their moral underpinning fails? It is time for us to repent of our sins and turn back to our God and His ways!
My prayer is that our denomination will wake up to and realize the error of our ways and seek the forgiveness of our God and strive to return to being good servants who are attractive to the world around us because of the joy we reflect in our daily lives and the love we are eager to share with all who would receive it.
If we are to be true to the faith of our fathers, we must not bless same-sex unions or most especially perform “marriages” of persons of the same sex. Instead, we need to be reaching out in love to teach the Holy Word and encourage all to enter the church to find redemption and forgiveness. God has shown us what righteousness is and we must strive to attain it to the best of our ability. It will not be achieved in this life but it must be the unending and laudable goal for which we reach.
In Christ’s service, Elder Bill Seiden Community Presbyterian Church, Vacaville, Calif.
End of the road for PCUSA?
Posted Monday, July 20, 2009
Dear PCUSA: Defiling the word of God and ignoring Biblical truth as you continually have done is something that our Lord will address in due course! I trust in The Word of My Savior, but it certainly does appear that you don’t! Just look at the numbers of churches that want to leave the PCUSA. And, there are a lot more to come. Plus, what God fearing Christian would want to remain in the Un-Godly mess you’ve created, anyway? Enjoy the present! The end of the road can’t be very pretty! Arnold Stevenson Once a Presbyterian
There’s no room for discussion on God’s word
Posted Monday, July 20, 2009
I am surprised that the Presbyterian Church USA has only one topic on its agenda and that is sex! The Holy Bible has resolved this issue once for all. There is no room for discussion and trying to find a way out of God’s Word to favor the lust of lust lovers. Marriage is a sacred relationship between a man and a woman. God created “woman” only for Adam not another man. I am sick of these modern Christian theologians (if they are still Christians) who interpret the Holy Bible according to their own wisdom and not from a Spiritual point of view. In June I was surprised to know that the PCUSA does not recognize the Old Testament as Christian Scripture. I was told by some visitors that we must not use the Old Testament as it is not Christian Scripture but Jewish Scripture. I told the visitor that if you “delete” the Old Testament then you have to re-write the whole New Testament. I really don’t know where these modern scholars are taking the Christian faith, that is absolutely complete and unquestionable and not debatable. I am happy that I live in Pakistan where we Christians face all kinds of difficulties yet we are so far safe from many false teachers of the modern time. Bishop Timotheus Nasir Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Look to the Bible
Posted Friday, July 17, 2009
I adhere closely to the Bible on this subject. We should minister to the homosexuals. Same-sex marriage is not allowed. They should not be in a position in the church of teaching our young people. Civil unions for legal purposes may be acceptable. This is a strong opinion but one that should define my church. Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. The Bible is our Word of God. Marcee B. Rogers Westminster Presbyterian Church, Aurora, Ill.
God’s answer to man’s concerns
Posted Friday, July 17, 2009
I thank Richard Conway, Elder of the First Presbyterian Church of Morganton, N.C., for his letter to The
Layman … I would like to add to his letter. Society must know that the Church is the strength of the Deity.
We cannot be wishy-washy…Take a stand for the truth stop soft pedaling the secular.
My comment to the other … It’s not who you are … It’s who He is … He loves you!
God bless our Church, our nation, and God’s kingdom.
Evelyn R. Brooks Conover, N.C.
Presbyterian Lay Committee living in the past
Posted Friday, July 17, 2009
I recently read your letter to congregations who have switched. One might say they, like Paul, once saw through child’s eyes but now they see more clearly or perhaps those congregations, like the reformers on the shores of Rhode Island, simply see with more light.
I find you living in the past, repugnant and willing to sacrifice the church you say you love and for that matter the Christian church in a time when young people need her most, all for the sake of your narrow, biased, small-minded thinking, driven by fear.
Faith is that which cannot be proven or disproven. If you can prove something you should, and with human sexuality we have. If you prove it and it’s wrong and you still believe it, you’re a nut. Grow up and grow into the grace and love of God revealed in our Lord Jesus the Christ who has provided grace sufficient for all God’s children. Yes, unfortunately even all of you who have spent too many years and too much money on your agendas when the world needs us.
Fondly, Dr. Robert J. Campbell
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I like the Jenny Geddes band’s refrain – “The Lord is LORD And – YOU – ARE – NOT !!!” from the video Hold your Peace.
It is quite a strong apologetic statement. It look like it was produced by a bunch of twenty-somethings, but stars a bunch of cool looking old geezers.
One of the old geezers takes a baseball bat to a bunch of tacky old pots. (They look like the ones you would find at an extremely cheap price, made of red clay and obviously machine made, with perfect cylindrical symetry, down to the drain hole in the bottom.) Straight taper along the sides, a broad rim across the top.
Clips of the potter styling a new and better pot at his wheel are interspersed. The wheel has a foot operated trundle. At the end the completed pot is set to dry. (pre-firing)
“Woe be to the one who quarrels with his maker –
An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the potter, ‘what are you doing?’
Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands?’
Isaiah 45:9 NASB