Letter is a documentation of the dilemma before members of Christ’s church
Posted Friday, September 30, 2011
Andrew Hilla’s eloquent letter is a masterful documentation of the dilemma before members of Christ’s church. How does one stay true to Christ when his church does not? Does one “go with” the church as it debases itself, or does one abjure? The Fellowship approach seems to obscure the matter of decision.
Gary Starkey
Letter is a documentation of the dilemma before members of Christ’s church
Posted Friday, September 30, 2011
Andrew Hilla’s eloquent letter is a masterful documentation of the dilemma before members of Christ’s church. How does one stay true to Christ when his church does not? Does one “go with” the church as it debases itself, or does one abjure? The Fellowship approach seems to obscure the matter of decision.
Gary Starkey
A defiant and unfaithful PCUSA will face problems
Posted Friday, September 30, 2011
Right on Pastor Jeff and Bev Harris. You are absolutely correct in pointing out the problems that will soon be faced by a defiant and unfaithful PCUSA. I suggest the “progressives” take time to read in the Old Testament about the Hebrew’s 70 year exile in Babylon for defying God and worshiping pagan idols. Or while you have your Bibles open read what Paul said in Galatians 1:6-10 “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel — which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ”.
God is patient but He is not a patsy.
Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C.
PCUSA is becoming more isolated as other Reformed bodies disassociate from it
Posted Tuesday, September 27, 2011
Re: After Mexico breakup, PCUSA looks for new partners
The Presbyterian Church (USA) is becoming more and more isolated as other reformed bodies, which apparently lack the capacity to comprehend its more and more advanced theology, disassociate themselves from the PCUSA. It seems probable, therefore, that the PCUSA will have to look outside of the Reformed tradition for its new partners. New partnerships and perhaps merger might seem desirable because of the ever-shrinking membership.
Two possible partners come to mind for the big-tent PCUSA. The first is the Unitarian Universalist denomination, which says it “welcomes people with diverse beliefs.” More importantly, perhaps, it does not recognize Jesus as God.
Another partner might be the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches denomination, which strongly emphasizes diversity, especially in sexual practice.
Either of these denominations would seem to be a good fit, given the present nature of the PCUSA.
George Hill Port Allen, La.
Objecting to GAMC name change
Posted Tuesday, September 27, 2011
I object to the PCUSA’s GAMC changing its name to the “Presbyterian Mission Agency.” The PCUSA has barely 200 missionaries. The Presbyterian Church in America’s Mission to the World (MTW) has about 600 career missionaries and thousands of short-term ones. This is in spite of the fact that the PCA only has about 15 percent of the PCUSA’s membership. I would think that that would make MTW THE Presbyterian Mission Agency.
Larry Brown African Bible College
PCUSA media training must have been axed in budget cuts
Posted Tuesday, September 27, 2011
First, Hunter Farrell says Amendment 10A “had nothing to do with sexuality.” (Disingenuous, to be kind)
Then Dave Thomas observes “The Mexican church at this time is not at the same point of knowledge, of understanding, of theology.” Condescending. (Extremely.)
Reading their quotes in the media reminds me of President George Bush’s comment about his first Secretary of the Treasury, Paul O’Neil’s press conference skills:”It’s like watching a child playing with a loaded weapon.”
I’m guessing PCUSA media training was axed in the last round of Louisville budget cuts.
Tome Walters First Presbyterian, Seguin, Texas
I hope that congregation is able to leave the PCUSA with their property
Posted Tuesday, September 27, 2011
The possibility of “liberal” congregations leaving the PCUSA for other denominations (such as the UCC and Unitarian) was actually discussed and envisioned at the FOP Gathering in Minneapolis.
Our denomination has tried to become all things to all people, and the result is that few really want to stay in this old, decaying body. I hope and pray that the West Hollywood congregation is able to leave the PCUSA with their property! All congregations need this option.
If true renewal is to occur in the PCUSA, a top to bottom re-commitment to the authority of Scripture and our Lord Jesus will be required. Bureaucratic and legalistic structures and maneuvers, no matter what the outcome of individual initiatives, disconnect us from the Lordship of Jesus. Our worship and witness miss the mark when we rely on man-made institutions for authority, truth and power. The church can and must do better than that.
I have no idea what the future holds for the PCUSA or its individual congregations. Perhaps this denomination will die and give birth to one or more new denominations/associations. Perhaps a remnant will survive. We will probably learn more over the next 2-4 years as change becomes reality.
When we confess our own sin, our corporate sin, and our complete inability to “do it on our own,” the Holy Spirit comes in power and does things beyond our thoughts or imagination. Let’s begin there and see what God has in store for us.
Chuck Jeffries Concord, Calif.
The PCUSA will simply go out of business
Posted Tuesday, September 27, 2011
Confirmed as a Presbyterian in 1960, I sadly left the denomination in 2000. In that same year I started a business that is now very successful. That success has hinged on taking to heart a tough business lesson – businesses go out of business for one reason and only one reason — they run out of cash. Many factors can make business tough but that is the single item that will put you away. I bring this up because rumor has it that the church we left in 2000 will soon be shutting its doors. Typical scenario; loss of membership down to a dozen families, no one tithing, Pastor (fourth since we left) just had to leave because they couldn’t pay her salary, no ministries left, etc. They are going out of business. They ran out of money.
It’s no coincidence that one of the many reasons for leaving was my frustration with the abominable level of giving within the Presbyterian church. Try being on the session of a church with no money. Stats say it is under 3 percent of income (leave it to Presbyterians to argue whether that is before or after tax) and the numbers at the bottom of the “Pro-gay church explores leaving PCUSA for more liberal UCC” article shows that if nothing else the UCC and the PCUSA have that in common. I believe this single item will be the final nail in the PCUSA’s and like minded churches coffins, not the never ending culture/theology battles that have been fought for the last decades. The PCUSA will simply go out of business. It’s interesting how the connection between a lack of giving with the inevitable closing of churches and the lack of Christian discipline in the PCUSA has gone unnoticed by its leadership.
Darryl Boyd
Some presbyteries offer their own reference to Scriptures when considering ordinations
Posted Tuesday, September 27, 2011
The director of Presbyterian World Missions has asked for a clarifying statement of the meaning of the 10A amendment. It is my understanding the close vote of the presbyteries has generated some presbyteries to offer their own reference to Scriptures when considering ordinations. This practice is bound to have the some presbytery’s sessions to follow suit. It would be interesting to see how many presbyteries have adopted this practice and what impact it has had on individual sessions.
Dawson Watkins Grace Covenant Presbyterian Church, Richmond, Va.
Hoping presbytery will model how to engage in a gracious dismissal
Posted Tuesday, September 27, 2011
The article “Pro-gay church explores leaving PCUSA for more liberal UCC,” is fascinating. Why this congregation would consider such a transfer now, after the denomination has agreed to allow gay ordination, is a mystery to me. But nonetheless, I wish them Godspeed. Speaking for myself, although I would be saddened to see any congregation depart out denomination for any reason, I will not accuse them of being “schismatic” and demand they leave behind their property or a portion thereof.
It will be interesting to see how the Presbytery of the Pacific responds to these developments. I hope my evangelical brethren in that presbytery will model how to engage in a gracious dismissal … something that may be usefully repeated if and when other congregations feel called to leave the PCUSA for reasons of their conscience and theological understanding.
John Erthein DeFuniak Springs, Fla.
How do we define ‘Christian?’
Posted Friday, September 23, 2011
In the article “Mouw hopes for compromise,” an interview with Richard Mouw, president of Fuller Theological Seminary, he says “We can’t cut off conversations with those we disagree with.”
Again, however, we seem to be presented with questions. First, just how do we define “Christian?” Do evangelicals have a definition which must be upheld?
Second, is this simply a matter of “those we disagree with” or is it, rather, those who have completely abandoned the true faith? In its essence, abandoning Almighty God, Himself, no matter what they claim?
Do we, instead, need to refer to 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 and take a stand that is absolutely clear before the world and in opposition to the rising apostasy among churches that are no longer part of the Body of Christ?
15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?
(2 Corinthians 6:15 ESV)
Paul Hubert Carmichael, Calif.
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing
Posted Friday, September 23, 2011
On September 21, David Carothers’s letter proves that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.
The Association for Church Renewal (ACR) invitation letter Carothers cites was not written to the general public, but specifically to leaders of renewal groups in mainline churches. The copy hyperlinked was apparently sent to David Virtue of VirtueOnline.org, and Virtue must have printed his copy on his web site.
If one goes to the ACR website, one would notice that ACR is “called into being by God to encourage and support renewal and reform leaders from the ‘mainline denominations.’” ACR has delineated constituents. When ACR meets, it is a summit meeting for the heads of member renewal groups. It is not a “y’all come” kind of affair. It is, as I wrote previously, far more like the MLP board meeting than the MLP annual conference. The ACR meeting is an apple, compared to the MLP conference’s orange.
Further, Carothers has found my bio on the Institute for Religion and Democracy’s web site. He writes that “one may presume that [the IRD and Berkley] continue some relationship since the IRD website maintains a reasonably up to date biography of Mr. Berkley on a page denoted as ‘Experts.’” One presumes wrongly. The stale bio is three years out of date and incorrect now in many ways, and I have had no relationship (other than congenial correspondence) with the IRD subsequent to being laid off over three years ago.
As for my relationship with the ACR, which Carothers seems to want to make my responsibility, I attended a couple of meetings during the period of 2002 to 2005, representing Presbyterians For Renewal, so I have some familiarity with the group. While working for the IRD (2005 to 2008), I never attended ACR meetings, which were held in Washington, D.C., near to where IRD offices are located, compared to Bellevue, Washington, where my office was at the time. It is not my organization, and I have no say in its press policy. I simply happen to know how the ACR is composed, and that its meetings were by invitation only for renewal group executives—analogous to an MLP board meeting.
And I remain consistently committed to sunshine policies. The solution to pesky press is plenty of press, not closed doors.
James D. Berkley Bellevue, Wash.
Which side would the Reformers be on today?
Posted Wednesday, September 21, 2011
Thank you for the link to the article written by Chaz Ruark, executive presbyter of the Presbytery of the Twin Cities Area, who, in his assessment of the current state of our denomination, acknowledged that “there are many people, liberal, moderate and conservative, who feel the PCUSA is in need of reformation or redevelopment or reorganization.” I find it incredibly ironic, perhaps even a bit tragically humorous, that this was precisely the case in 1517 A.D. A good many in the church then recognized the deep need for reform, but the church was ill-equipped or otherwise unable to do so. One wonders which side the reformers of that era (even Catholic reformers) would be on today.
Rev. Steven L. Seng First Wyoming United Presbyterian Church, Torrington, Wyo.
‘All power belongs to the Israelis’
Posted Wednesday, September 21, 2011
The Methodists and the Presbyterians are not wrong in supporting the Palestinians. Yes, the Palestinians have been wrong at times, but they have been wronged more than they have been wrong. The Presbyterians and the Methodists are trying to put a little power on the Palestinian side since all power belongs to the Israelis with their elite army and air force and American-supplied munitions. They move into whatever Palestinian territory they want, claiming it as their own. They destroy vineyards and olive groves and build huge villages on Palestinian property. What can the Palestinians do? They can fight back with stones and protests and a few bombs and when they do, the one with all power descends on them. Remember it is our Christian brothers and sisters of many churches that are calling for our help.
Raymond Weiss
September issue speaks the truth in Love
Posted Wednesday, September 21, 2011
Finally, a prophet. Carmen LaBerge, using the Word of God, called the shot on the church’s sorrowful situation. May the Lord bless, guide and protect her as she continues her prophetic voice in the mode of our brother Jude.
G. Robert Geyer, DMin. , Hon. Ret. Rochester, N.Y.
Forecasts of the 2012 GA
Posted Wednesday, September 21, 2011
Larry Brown is correct about most of his predictions. The denomination has been below 2 million for some time and will officially be acknowledged as having crossed that momentous milestone at the 2012 GA. An overture will certainly be submitted to GA and approved to redefine marriage in some manner to no longer limit the definition to a man and a woman. I doubt his third point. There is no need to be so blatant. All that is necessary is to include “sexual orientation” in the non-discrimination paragraph in G-4, which I stated earlier. As for eating the Fellowship of Presbyterians for lunch, I think they will be on the menu for breakfast and dinner as well. Larry forgot one additional change, make per capita mandatory!
Steve King