The leaders of the Presbyterian Church (USA) need to fear God

The trouble w/ the ongoing ‘war’ ideology is that it gets one in the mindset of “all’s fair”. Have an evangelical pastor gone wrong? Cover it up. Satan is everywhere and The Enemy will use that information to lead people away from ‘us’ and from God. Have to bend the truth to get your way? True Truth is that leadership is to be submitted to and false truth is mere factual consistency. We lied to the Nazis during WWII, didn’t we? It invokes a need for military style discipline instead of individual salvation. You get paranoid thinking you’re surrounded at all times by enemy agents, including people who have gone to your churches for decades. Control of all information becomes as critical as not letting the Germans know the when/where of DDay.

That’s not any sort of healthy relationship w/ anyone.

What a set of gibberish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

“Yes, leaders in the PCUSA have essentially declared war against the holy Creator God with (to use Micah’s words) their “evil deeds.” But God always has the last say! Every one of these leaders will one day”……..

………………”evil deeds” ,listen I’m on the side of the churches that are wanting to leave, I’m just more progessive than most, but “evil”?

I too have seen evil, dressed up in GOP clothes telling us about the glories trickle down economics, or the best, ‘weapons of mass distruction”, really?

To Scott, Paul, and James (the first three respondents):

You sound a great deal like many mainstream PCUSA leaders–readier to reject a conservative out of hand than to hear the word that is spoken through Micah (or Paul or Jesus…). Is your gripe with the biblical passage? If so, are you going to expunge it?

To call evil “evil” is not to throw away your ability to make fine distinctions, neither is it at all equivalent to slipping into a paranoid war ideology (neither does it suddenly make of you a Republican). Jesus’s finest words on love and service are not very far removed from his hardest words on people (such as Pharisees and other false teachers) as pigs, dogs, and wolves. Paul, similarly, while suffering and loving for the gospel, makes quite clear not only that the Christian life is a life of spiritual warfare, but also that false prophets and teachers of another gospel are greatly to be resisted.

If you’re upset with Mr. Ham for something else, such as his view of creation, then please speak to that issue in some forum to which it is relevant.

Kevin,

“If you’re upset with Mr. Ham for something else, such as his view of creation, then please speak to that issue in some forum to which it is relevant.”

Really, this verse is about judgement, not creationism, as for false prophets, well……………..

Ham’s words reflect none of Christ’s love, but plenty of undisguised sanctimonious bigotry and superstition. Hell exists, alright…right here in this world, fashioned by the hands of the likes of Ham. I suspect he needs to fear the Lord more than most, and with good reason.

Putting the words ‘gay marriage’ inside scare quotes doesn’t make it any less of a reality, any more than does scare-quoting the words ‘eat shellfish.’ Apparently Ham is a Micahn. With his permission, I think I’ll remain a Christian, myself. My Lord had plenty to say about loving one another, and not one word to say about homosexuality. Ham might consider emulating him…though he’s made it abundantly clear by now that he can’t be bothered to.

Wendell,

Your words are at least as harsh and condemning as those of the man you’re condemning for being harsh and condemning.

But let’s consider some other features of your words:

You accuse Ham of expressing “superstition”–and then you jump to talking about hell. You introduced this latter term–so what did Ham say that you are calling ‘superstition’? Perhaps you’re just upset by references to God’s judgment? But if you’re calling belief in God’s judgment and in hell matters of superstition, I should caution you that you’ll find many of the things Jesus says to be painfully “superstitious.”

Since Jesus and the New Testament writers quote from the prophets extensively, by what authority do you to try to drive a wedge between Jesus and Micah? At no point does Jesus say, “Please just be a Christian–and throw out the Law and the Prophets.”

You are correct, I believe, that Jesus never refers to homosexuality. He does, however, say some compelling things about marriage and morality. To argue that he would approve of same-sex marriage, you’ll need to suppress some of the things that he said–and then add some premises of your own. You’ll then be serving, however, a different Jesus (or, rather, you’ll have a different Jesus–a “Jesus” that you think is serving you).

We all need some comfort–but let us settle only for true comforts. Jesus offers comfort that goes beyond anything anyone else could ever offer. But Jesus–like the prophets and Moses and the wisdom writers–warns us not to settle for false comforts. Why else would he warn, “…the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction” (Mat. 7:13)?

In John 5:46-47, Jesus tells his detractors that unless one holds to the writings of Moses (the first five books of the Bible), one cannot fully know or understand truth or Jesus Himself. “For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?” (John 5:46-47) Of course, in the first five books of the Bible we read of the days of Noah and Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis) and the blanket condemnation of homosexuality as perversion (Leviticus). Oh well, so much for throwing out the Old Testament to legitimize homosexuality. But wait – Jesus gets even more direct with the matter.

Jesus also spoke of the destruction of the Sodomite (openly celebrating homosexuality) cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. (Luke 17:28-32; Matthew 10:15; 11:24; Mark 6:11.) The presenting sin that brought about the destruction of those cultures was homosexuality. Consider these words found in the book of Jude:

“Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.” (Jude 1:7-8)

Three of the four gospels contain quotes from Jesus about the sinful condition of Sodom and Gomorrah and the destruction that the celebration of the presenting sin of homosexuality wrought upon them. One of those quotes equates the sins of Sodom (homosexuality) to the same type of pervasive perversion of Noah’s day (Luke 17:26-30). So, as it turns out … YES, Jesus did speak rather forthrightly, and often, about the sin of homosexuality and the judgment that it brings upon societies that celebrate it.

It is sad and ironic that what is going on in the PCUSA is exactly the same ideological polarization that is going on in our secular society as a whole. The Right is moving more to the right, the Left is moving more to the left, and you could take the Bible and Religion out of the discussion and get exactly the same answer. The polemics and acrimony do not come out of Scripture but are projected into it. Ham is a good case in point. A contextual reading of the Text he quotes would take us down a very different political path than the one chosen by the Right. But never mind Ham’s intentional misuse of Scripture. He is only trying to cover up the nakedness of his own ideology. For those of us that do believe the Word of God speaks to us out of Scripture, we should be most reminded of the words of God as revealed to Paul in Galatians 5:14-15:

“For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.”

Which is where we now stand, consuming one another for reasons that have nothing to do with the Gospel or the Law.

You call some important things to mind. But where are you coming down on this? If all the things under discussion and dissension in our polarized society are irrelevant to scripture, are you suggesting that scripture is equally irrelevant to all these things?

The verses you quote from Galatians are powerful. Yet surely they must be understood in the context of the rest of that letter–a letter in which Paul seems amazingly ready to argue for his position in ways that sound harsh. I’ll not quote his harshest words, but please consider these:
“You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you…?” (3:1) and
“You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump” (5:7-9).

I would also note that the response you wrote could be submitted as a counter-response to Jesus’ own words, in Mat 23. Should Jesus admit that he erred in the harsh polemic that he modelled against the Pharisees?

The appeal to love is repeatedly abused–in both the churches and in society–as some sort of a spiritual trump card. But love–so stressed by Jesus and by Paul–is repeatedly bound by them to God’s truth and good order. The loving of our neighbor is a calling that can be fulfilled as (and only as) we walk in faith and obedience to God.

Yes, politics and religion have parallel and cross-pollinating polarizations. But, in each case, I’d like to see greater clarity–even scriptural clarity–being brought to bear on all fronts. As I see it, the truth, justice, and mercy of God shine painful light not only on “conservative” tendencies to greed and legalism, but equally on “liberal” tendencies to envy and libertinism.

I do fear God – thank you very much.

“Which is where we now stand, consuming one another for reasons that have nothing to do with the Gospel or the Law.”

the posts on this website are filled with comments like this, just one example, of the level of insanity that has infiltrated the PCUSA. what’s going on has nothing to do with the Gospel or the Law??

i’ve been hearing about major infighting in the PCUSA since i was a little girl, from my grandfather and the locals in my grandparent’s small town. the town only had a few thousand people in it, but they had two completely separate Presbyterian USA churches. that was almost sixty years ago. if PCUSA wasn’t constantly fighting about money, real estate, power and control maybe the church would have time to actually study the Gospel and the Law. last time i attended a Bible study class at a PCUSA church three of us showed up, me, the teacher, and one young kid. and that was typical. a survey was conducted in NYC while i was a member of a PCUSA church there, 85% of the members said they didn’t believe the Bible should be taken literally. the end result has everything to do with this long festering attitude about the Gospels and the Law, that a group of humans is better equipped to make up their own rules than God.

what many current members probably don’t realize, countless PCUSA members silently walked away from this entire scene a long time ago, without saying one word. several of my family members in fact. what’s left is what we see now, largely a group of people who are interested in using the church as a focal point for business or other networking, or worse, as a source of income. i was recently told by a current PCUSA elder the open door policy for the masses is aimed primarily at increasing dues paying members, then supposedly converting the nonbelievers after they’re inside. unfortunately the result is the 85% statistic, the strategy is clearly not working. countless souls are at risk while the entire organization is being infested.

not speaking up, remaining silent has nothing to do with love. the current situation in the PCUSA is no different from saying nothing while an alcoholic is drinking himself to death after a fifty year drinking career. granted it might have been justified to remain silent for a while, out of ‘love’, more accurately i would call it respect, at this point there’s no time left for such pleasantries. it’s time to call it what it is and try to find a cure for this evil before it’s too late. we are talking about a life or death matter, the eternal judgment of souls.

These ideological battles have been going on for years and years. This is nothing new people. Remember? – slavery – ordination of women – the civil rights movement – remember? I guess not. I never see this publication even mention the fact that sessions can still call their elders and congregations can still call their pastors. That is NEVER mentioned, at all. That was never brought up during the more recent 10 a debate, as well. Moreover, if a pastor does not want to marry a gay couple, that is still their right. Session still have control over their facilities as well. Come on people, give me a break. Get real here.

Apparently Richard (in the earlier comment) and I participated in very different presbytery discussions in recent years. Those things of which he reminds us (i.e., debates over ordination of women, slavery, etc.) have been raised for years in Presbytery meetings. Generally, these issues were not well raised or presented–but this, I believe, is because the natures of these important issues, in many ways, are radically different from the nature of same-sex marriage.

As for what Richard says is “NEVER” mentioned, it has been mentioned. The language of the AI and the amendment were presented–and it seems to me that they were presented several times. It has been abundantly clear, on Layman.org, that PCUSA pastors and sessions are “free” to say “no” to same sex marriages in their facilities.

However, with this freedom of pastors and congregations on the table, let’s ask just how meaningful this “freedom” really is. In presbyteries that generally affirm same-sex marriages, dissenting pastors and congregations seem likely to be treated shabbily. (For a taste of this, I’m afraid that I’d have to agree with “Guest,” below, who has voiced disappointment at the tenor of the comments in this section.) Perhaps more importantly, pastors and congregations who try to avoid same sex marriages seem likely to be crushed when lawsuits are brought against them. For on what possible grounds could a PCUSA pastor and congregation say “no” to such marriages, when even the PCUSA’s general position is now in the affirmative? Such pastors and congregations, rather than enjoying religious freedom, seem likely, sooner or later, to be compelled by the state to act in accordance with the denomination of which they are a part.

Correction:
I see that I attributed the word, ‘Never,’ to the wrong topic in Richard’s comment, below–so I apologize for that.

As for “ideological battles” that have been going on for years, I’d suggest that we’re in the thick of battles that have been raging for millennia. Whether we look back at Gnosticism or the Nicolaitans, or further back to the syncretism opposed by Elijah, or still further back to Moses’s opposition to Balaam’s ploys, these battles are ongoing. Their ongoing nature makes them no less important or urgent.

What lawsuits? That’s absolute scare-tactic rubbish. Pastors have always been free to decline doing marriages of any kind at any time, and will always continue to be free to decline. The only thing they have not been free to do is officiate at marriages the church prohibited. For that yes, they have been sued. But there is no basis for the shoe to be on the other foot on this one. So let’s keep it real, shall we?

Perhaps Jesus didn’t say anything about homosexuality because the law of Moses already made it explicitly clear that it was condemned. Probably the most exclusive affirmation of marriage by Jesus as God intended it to be from the very beginning can be found in Matthew 19:1-9. This cannot be rationalized to include homosexuality.

The concept of condoning homosexuality and by extension gay marriage is so alien, so inconceivable and absurd to the sexual ethics of Jesus and his 1st century Jewish listeners that he didn’t need to mention it. He didn’t mention ‘identity theft” either but we can still glean from understanding God’s moral universe that it’s still wrong.

At some point gay marriage will be legal in all 50 states and have full legal protection and mainstream social acceptance, and in the future anybody graduating from a PC USA seminary and seeking ordination will have to affirm in the positive, gay marriage. It is inevitable. But the objective moral law of God will stand unchanged in its condemnation of homosexual behavior and any other sin God has judged despite our feelings or society’s imprimatur of approval.

Not all that long ago, if I had suggested that there was the approaching danger of mainline Protestant denominations participating in–and celebrating–same sex weddings, many seemingly knowledgeable persons would have told me: “Get real.” But, just look at what now is real. As a result, trends within and without the church, at present, make me think that the concern that I raised was not as stupid or off-topic as your own rhetoric would suggest.

Perhaps you might Google: “gay marriage lawsuits against churches.” While the fist few items concern churches suing states, other items then appear in which the topic is gays who are suing (or could sue) churches, in the UK and in the US. Obviously, the situation in the UK is quite different. However, the secular, utilitarian mindset that is running not only through society but also through the courts, seems (at least to me) to be very similar.

The aggressive gay rights movement will be more than happy to find new places in which to strike. For, until the whole of society is forced into a chorus of unquestioning celebration, their work will not be done. They can only be happy with the new opportunities that the PCUSA is opening to them.

Agreed- and people have been walking away from churches that are no longer true to their understanding of faith in God for ‘years and years’. So I’m walking away from the PCUSA as fast as my feet can carry me. And there are other thriving Presbyterian denominations that indeed are calling pastors who are still faithful to the word of God.

All of the assurances by progressives in the recent debates that no PC(USA) pastor will ever be required to violate his/her conscience on marriage are quite irrelevant. The PC(USA) is moving at an accelerating rate to the far left wing fringe of Presbyterianism and it’s just a matter of time before there aren’t any PC(USA) churches or pastors who won’t accommodate gay weddings.

“it’s just a matter of time before there aren’t any PC(USA) churches or pastors who won’t accommodate gay weddings.”

What a happy day that will be when the pcusa titanic ship sink. Remember Noah and the flood????
When the waters of judgment arise to the pcusa, the ship will sink with all apostate hands on board.

Who is doing the consuming???? The apostates with their ungodly talk and behavior, and to not defend against the wolves in sheep’s clothing is treason to the Holy Bible, and who fulfilled the whole Law??? When I tell my neighbor he/she needs Christ as their Savior and Lord, than I am loving my neighbor while I live the Christ like life, otherwise, I am being dishonest.

Some think Christ was gay, a loving only Savior who would not offend anyone so feelings would not be hurt. HA, the Scriptures cited tells of a Christ who is Lord, not a wimp.

Ditto. My feet carried me out. Here is a point these ministers never consider: what psychological harm have you done to your congregants who have lived lives abiding by the standards in the scripture. Then progressive ministers start telling ius folks we are intolerant for not supporting gay marriage, abortion, hatred for Israel, on and on. We have been emotionally battered by our own so called ministers. Run, don’t walk out of pcusa

Thank you for your well stated comment. It is excellent .

To Jodie Gallo, regarding lawsuits:
Homosexuals are already suing bakers who refuse to bake a wedding cake for their gay nuptials on the grounds that it violates the baker’s religious beliefs . Homosexuals are already suing photographers who refuse to take their wedding pictures on the grounds that it violates the photographer’s religious beliefs. The courts have ruled in favor of the homosexuals. (Though why a homosexual would want to FORCE any business owner to service their wedding when that business owner disapproves of homosexuality is beyond me. I wouldn’t want them anywhere near my wedding. Homosexuals are enjoying their bullying of Christian believers just a bit too much, me thinks. So much for the live and let live mantra progressives are so proud of!!!) In any case, if you think for one moment that churches are going to be exempt from being forced into performing homosexual weddings, you are living in lala land. I predict that in the next ten years, progressives in government will demand that churches perform homosexual marriages or (1) lose their tax exempt status, and/or (2) be fined a ridiculous amount of money, and/or (3) be shut down.

Mr. Holsomback,
You are correct that ideological battles have been going on throughout history. The difference here is that slavery is condemned in the Bible; many women in the Bible held positions of power and wealth, many women served side by side with our Disciples; and nothing in Scripture condemns racial equality. However, both the Old and New Testaments condemn homosexuality. And nowhere in Scripture is homosexuality held to be acceptable or positive. This is a bridge too far.

I am a member of a faithful PCUSA church and will remain so. I recently discussed the issue of PCUSA congregations leaving to join the EPC with a friend who is an EPC pastor and his comments were eye opening. The gist of his reply: “If folks think they are escaping the homosexual issue by joining the EPC they are fooling themselves.” I hope people who are now in the EPC find a place that nurtures their faith and inspires their mission. They would most certainly find my friend’s church such a place; however, if you’re female you’d be unable to serve as an elder. He’s tried for 20 years to convince his male leadership to make the crossover.

You say that leaders will one day have to face God, but they don’t understand that. They are radical liberals, and you can’t reason with them.

You seem to be confusing religion with politics. That is VERY revealing. Regarding religion, we are to worship God/Jesus in SPIRIT and in TRUTH. God is LOVE; but He is also RIGHTEOUS. And, as for the politics you inserted into your discussion, “Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no salvation.” Psalm 146: 3. And that is true whether the “prince” is a Democrat, Republican, or Libertarian.