How can we care for the ‘sheep’ when there are wolves on full-time staff?
Posted Monday, March 30, 2009
In 1972, I asked Gus Hall, head of the American Communist party, “How could Christians and Communists live together in peace?” He said, “There is no problem if the Christians would change what they believe.”
Now in 2009, when I went to the Southeastern Illinois Presbytery stated meeting, I was told by the actions of the presbytery on the secret ballot vote of 08-B, that to agree with them – that the Bible is no longer the truth – means changing what I believe as a Christian.
I was also deeply concerned about the “secret” vote. On all the “open” votes 117 people voted each time. On the “secret” vote 127 people voted. Yet there was no concern by the presbytery leadership about the “10” more votes.
It’s a righteous disgrace, a sin and a shame. The Presbyterian Church is in very desperate need, yet, all we get is abuse, deceit and greed from the presbytery and Louisville. How can we care for the “sheep” when there are wolves on full-time staff?
What has happened to the Presbyterian Church that gave America and the world great spiritual leaders like Peter Marshall, Henrietta Mears, James Kennedy and Bill Bright? The Bible was God’s truth to them. They chose to be “spiritually” correct in God’s eyes – not politically or socially correct as the church leaders are today. The Word of God (Bible) is the truth! Not the ideas of mislead and spiritually uninformed men and women in Louisville. Jim Fox Trinity Presbyterian Church, Metropolis, Ill.
Will the trickle of those leaving the PCUSA become a flood?
Posted Monday, March 30, 2009
It now seems possible that the GLBT (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender) advocates will reach the magic number 87, the number of presbyteries needed to overturn the traditional, Biblical ordination standards. When that happens, very likely the trickle of people that have left the denomination since the mid-1960s will become, at least briefly, a flood. Then, at the General Assembly of 2010, things will become really bizarre for lack of an evangelical presence. This will produce a secondary wave of evacuees; and so things will continue to go downhill. The number of members is down. The financial giving is down. The only number going up is the median age of the membership. Why are the PCUSA leaders so seemingly oblivious? I surmise:
- It’s not about ministry. It’s about having a platform from which to conduct left-of-center sociopolitical activities. To them, that is ministry.
- They assume that eventually the decline will bottom out, and that they will be able to build upon whatever’s left. The problem with this strategy is that whatever’s left will be in their 60s, 70s and 80s, and unlikely to build anything.
- They further assume that the vacancy left by departing evangelicals will be filled by grateful GLBTs. The truth, however, is that the GLBTs for whom the PCUSA leadership have so tirelessly labored will continue to stay away from church in droves.
In the past, there has been a proposal for a two-synod denomination – one “evangelical,” the other “progressive.” This has not met with widespread support. However, it seems to me that when the magic number 87 is reached, there will be a de facto two-synod denomination, as there will then be a cluster of presbyteries that calls GLBTs into ministry, and a cluster that doesn’t. The PCUSA will never cease to exist entirely; it will simply continue to live in perpetual decline. To me, this is the saddest of all possible outcomes. Larry Brown African Bible College
Please continue to pray
Posted Monday, March 30, 2009
Re: New England: Where liberals failed, Baptist plant churches
Just wanted to say thanks for good article. Continue to pray for our work. Terry Dorsett, director Green Mountain Baptist Association
PCUSA is another see no evil/hear no evil, user-friendly social organization
Posted Monday, March 30, 2009
As I watch the continual decline of the PCUSA I have to ask myself why this is happening. Is our leadership in Louisville just plain stupid or are they following a deviously conceived plan to rid the denomination of anything evangelical; 80 percent of membership. Their cleverness rules out the first so it must be that being more politically correct and tuned into worldly culture is more important than adhering to God’s will as outlined in the Scriptures.
The once mission-oriented Presbyterian Church has become just another see no evil/hear no evil, anything goes, user-friendly social organization. We place unity and peace above purity and wonder why it is not working. We actually know why it is not working but are not willing to accept causes and fix the problem. Simply reading the Old Testament indicates what happened to the Hebrews when they adopted the culture of their pagan neighbors. They were taken off as slaves to Babylon and Assyria.
Where has our departure from God led us:
- We are losing on average over 1,000 members per week.
- We have lost some of the strongest congregations that want to serve God and not man.
- Giving to the national church is down significantly due to lack of trust.
- We have drastically reduced mission programs (the real work of the church).
- Our seminaries perpetuate this downward spiral by their liberal teaching.
- We cannot afford our headquarters building in Louisville, and rent out much of it.
- We don’t need the space anyway as we have drastically reduced staff, not the right staff.
- Louisville whines about loss of revenue and blames evangelicals for the problem.
- A once faithful (to God) denomination now offers little to the salvation of the world.
Many pastors and laypeople hold the false hope that in time things will change and the denomination will return to God. Observing our General Assembly actions should be sufficient evidence that this isn’t happening and that we are moving away at an increasing rate. Removal of the fidelity in marriage and chastity clauses in the Book of Order might not happen this year but it will be in the 2010 GA agenda for another vote. The denomination flounders and fails in its mission. Isn’t it time to move on?
Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C.
Presbytery has been faithful to God and to its member churches
Posted Monday, March 30, 2009
My apologies for mistakenly placing Murphy and Montreat within the New Wineskins Non-Geographic Presbytery. When writing my comments, I did not have presbytery records in front of me, but knew both churches were dismissed from the PCUSA to the EPC.
But the point of my letter remains. In its original print version, the title was not “Western N.C. Presbytery adopts dismissal guidelines” but instead they chose the title: “Western N.C. Presbytery erects barriers to dismissal.” The fomer is more accurate and faithful to Presbytery WNC’s intent, while the latter insinuates that our presbytery is being obstinate and contentious. I am glad to see that in its online posting the article’s title has been amended, though the article’s tone still has not.
Also, in reference to Michael R. (Mac) McCarty’s comment that Murphy and Montreat “found a safe, Biblically-faithful harbor” in the EPC, I would like to offer my opinion that Presbytery WNC is equally such a harbor. In the few years that I have been privileged to be a minister member of PWNC, I have experienced God’s love and a faithfulness to God’s mission in this body. I have not found it to be untrustworthy or in any way unfaithful to either Christ who is its Head nor to the Bible which is its authority. So much was made of the PCUSA’s approval of the Peace, Unity and Purity Task Force’s report, but PWNC responded in its very next meeting by approving COM’s recommendation that scrupling not be allowed until time had been taken for consideration. I grant that the door was left open, but our immediate reaction was faithful to both the Bible and to Presbyterian polity and I do not see PWNC rushing to support the practice of scrupling any time soon.
Our presbytery has been faithful to God and to its member churches as together we wrestle with how to respond to congregations who are hurting. The staff has done their utmost to establish a pastoral mode of operation, not a mode of challenge and it makes me very angry when suggestions are made to the contrary. We are all trying to do our best to remain faithful in a very painful and difficult time. Even as Murphy and Montreat chose to leave the PCUSA, there have been other congregations who have considered the matter and chosen not to depart. Those congregations are not being unfaithful either.
In all of this, my frustration is not only with The Layman, but also with The Presbyterian Outlook, and with Presbyterians for Renewal, and with the Covenant Network of Presbyterians, and with groups like That All May Freely Serve. All of these organizations and institutions have their specific agenda and they intentionally choose to portray news items in ways that serve their purpose, that stir up their base; just like political parties who will do anything to get a win. That is what warps the truth and turns it into something ugly. The facts that are presented no longer bear any resemblance to the truth from which they were taken. That is not being faithful … neither to Christ nor to the Bible. Rev. Troy Scot Braswell, pastor Long Creek Presbyterian Church
Braswell has his facts wrong
Posted Wednesday, March 25, 2009
I just read Rev. Braswell’s letter with regard to a Feb. 2 article, “Western N.C. Presbytery adopts dismissal guidelines,” which I somehow missed. For whatever reason or motive, Braswell has his facts wrong. Neither Murphy nor Montreat is a member of the New Wineskins Presbytery of the EPC. Murphy has been received into our sister Presbytery of the Southeast and Montreat is a member of Presbytery of the Mid-Atlantic. We would have been proud to include them, but they found a safe, Biblically-faithful harbor elsewhere in our new denominational home.
Michael R. (Mac) McCarty, stated clerk New Wineskins Transitional Non-geographic Presbytery, EPC
So-called PCUSA liberals are actually in the renewal camp
Posted Wednesday, March 25, 2009
The article by Jim Berkley was interesting as usual. Mr. Berkley notes:
Do you really want to give such a strong indication that change is on the front burner? Forty percent of Presbyterians self-label as conservatives, those who want to preserve/conserve (and perhaps return to) the theology and practices carefully handed down to us by our forebears. And yet, the OGA would presumably be about “continual reformation of the church” (make that altering what we believe and practice) and “seeking together the mind of Christ” (as if we’re still groping to find what many of us believe has been delivered to us in Scripture).
Nineteen percent of Presbyterians label themselves as liberals or progressives – those who seek “progress” in overturning established beliefs and practices. This vision statement appears to be written for a fifth of the church that would like to direct the other four-fifths.
My suggestion to Mr. Berkley is that he simply read The Book of Order. The following is from G-2.0200:
Yet the church, in obedience to Jesus Christ, is open to the reform of its standards of doctrine as well as of governance. The church affirms “Ecclesia reformata, simper reformanda,” that is, “The church reformed, always reforming,” according to the Word of God and the call of the Spirit.Well it seems to me this so called vision statement is consistent with the Constitution of the PCUSA even if as Mr. Berkley claims only 20 percent might agree with it. What is important is that the Spirit is included in the reformation as well as the Word of God.
An important fact that Mr. Berkley and others ignore I think is that so-called liberals in the PCUSA are actually in the renewal camp as well. They simply seek to get back to the basics of Jesus Christ where all are welcome to be in touch with the living God. Maybe in the end neither camps (liberals or conservatives) are really reformers, but just simply want to go back to basics, in other words the good old-time religion.
Well quite frankly I believe all in the PCUSA are rightly reformers whether they like being labeled that or not. It’s not an easy task and is why I like to hang out with this group.
Earl C. Apel, deacon Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church, Cincinnati, Ohio
Lord Voldemort felt no duty to honor the Eighth Commandment
Posted Wednesday, March 25, 2009
In regards to the comments by Tom Eggebeen (posted Monday, March 23, 2009): I have now searched through my daughter’s Harry Potter books and despite a diligent investigation I cannot find any instance where Lord Voldemort felt much duty to honor the Eighth Commandment. On the contrary; he seems to believe he is the measure of all things, and that might makes right. It is possible – in light of these findings – that the PCUSA lost a sterling executive presbyter candidate, when Harry so rudely applied Psalm 9:15-16 to him.
My condolences for your missed opportunity.
Rev. Russ Westbrook
Peace, Unity and Purity should be called Bringing About Dissension
Posted Monday, March 23, 2009
The report on Peace, Unity and Purity (PUP) surely is a misnomer. A more appropriate acronym would be BAD, Bringing About Dissension. John H. McCutcheon Lincoln University Pa.
Congratulations on new editor
Posted Monday, March 23, 2009
Congratulations to Paula Kincaid on being named editor of The Layman. I met Paula for the first and only time at GA and found her to be everything credited to her by this article. First and foremost, she is a faithful disciple of Jesus Christ and with a deep concern for the church. I was greatly impressed watching her work and blessed by the few conversations we had. May God richly and abundantly bless her in this new phase of her faith journey. Many of us wish her the very best and God speed! Rev. Steven L. Seng First Presbyterian Church, Wellsburg, W.Va.
Layman’s article was a warped version of events
Posted Monday, March 23, 2009
I have just completed reading the article in The Layman entitled: “Western N.C. Presbytery erects barriers to dismissal.” I know I shouldn’t be, but can’t help but be astounded at the approach The Layman has taken in reporting on our Presbytery’s action. I can only assume that this article was written by a member of the Presbytery WNC, due to the fact that this publication operates within its bounds. Under that assumption, I am certain that you know the truth, yet prefer to present this warped version of events.
First let it be said that yes, indeed, the amended version of our presbytery’s procedures does place more stringent requirements upon congregations. But you fail to mention either the history of how these procedures came to be, nor why they continue to be amended.
You know for a fact that these procedures are exactly that: procedures that allow congregations to faithfully work with the presbytery to be dismissed from the PCUSA.
You know that they were first created not at the request of the presbytery, but at the request of a sole congregation, Murphy Presbyterian Church so that they might faithfully request dismissal.
You know that once those procedures were in place, Murphy Presbyterian Church took advantage of them and officially requested dismissal.
You know that having faithfully followed these procedures, Murphy Presbyterian Church was graciously, though regrettably, dismissed to the New Wineskins Non-Geographic Presbytery within the EPC.
You know that Murphy Presbyterian Church was also dismissed with property intact. Granted Murphy Presbyterian Church donated $10,000 to the presbytery’s Mission Fund, but that is a paltry amount compared to the value of the property.
You know that the reason for continued adaptation of these procedures was made necessary due to the actions of Montreat Presbyterian Church who also requested dismissal, but chose not to work graciously with the presbytery, according to the procedures. The presbytery nevertheless voted to dismiss the majority of the congregation to the New Wineskins Non-Geographic Presbytery within the EPC and that Montreat EPC, instead of working with the presbytery, chose litigation to attempt to acquire the property; property that you know cannot simply be dismissed due to multiple ties associated with the land and facilities including Montreat EPC, the continuing Montreat PCUSA, the town of Montreat and the Mountain Retreat Association.
You know that these are not barriers to congregations willing to work with the presbytery in a gracious and Godly fashion, but are instead simply procedures that area necessary to a dismissal that is “decent and in order.”
You I and yet you still choose to portray our presbytery, your presbytery, as a property greedy, selfish entity; one intent upon prohibiting congregations from leaving the PCUSA when in fact our procedures were created to enable that exact action.
May God forgive you for the strife and discord that you intentionally sow. Rev. Troy Scot Braswell, pastor Long Creek Presbyterian Church
Layman editorial was timely
Posted Monday, March 23, 2009
Thank you for your timely editorial, “The Quicksand of Antinomianism.” I would add only one thought in conclusion. “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.” Hebrews 13:8. Donald G. Nichol Walden, N.Y.
Your work is not returning empty and the Lord is with you
Posted Monday, March 23, 2009
I have been following and reading The Layman since about l994. My wife and I had both served as elders in churches that belonged to the PCUSA as of that year. To say that our attention was immediately fastened to what The Layman was saying in those days is an understatement. For 15 years we have assiduously read every word in your newspaper, and found all of it to be clearly true, important and loyal to the Christian faith. Not so the pastors of the PCUSA church we have belonged to. My wife and I have been very much in the minority.
When we read in your most recent issue that the First Presbyterian Church of Fresno (Jamie Evans has been senior pastor there) voted 540 to 10 to leave the PCUSA and open affiliation procedures with the Evangelical Pres. Church in November 2008, I decided to do a rather odd thing: I sat down to write this letter to your paper congratulating you and encouraging you, because that’s where the credit should be.
Carmen Fowler and the staff take heart — your work is not returning empty and the Lord is with you. Only because the Lay Committee has “stuck with it” for 25 years and withstood lambasting from the PCUSA has the information “gotten out” to those of us who trust Jesus Christ alone for our salvation. Gordon P. Levy Former Commissioner to the Presbytery of San Joaquin from Sierra Vista Presbyterian Church, Oakhurst, California
Will GAPJC apply the logic of Sundquist to ‘More Light’ churches?
Posted Monday, March 23, 2009
If “obstructing constitutional governance of the church are actions, not expressions of free conscience,” will the GAPJC apply the logic of Sundquist to “More Light” churches that are deliberately obstructing constitutional governance by circumventing ordination standards and ignoring prohibitions on homosexual “marriage?” Rev. Michael Neubert Presbytery of Southeastern Illinois
Prayer is breathtaking
Posted Monday, March 23, 2009
The “cursing prayer” on p. 23, The Layman (March, 2009) is breathtaking – sounds like something Lord Voledmort might have said about Dumbledoor or Harry. Rev. Tom Eggebeen, interim pastor Covenant Presbyterian Church, Los Angeles, Calif.