FOG: A wonderful name for another GA task force
Posted Tuesday, May 30, 2006
Re: GA will be asked to name FOG group to abridge, overhaul Book of Order
What a wonderful name for another task force of our very own General Assembly. Afraid it may become a pejorative? I suspect I could find a couple dozen blogs already using the term that way, and at least that many condemning G.A. leaders for making such a blunder. To paraphrase veteran sportscaster Dick Enberg, “OH MY”!
Pat Riggins DVM First Presbyterian Church , Bloomington, Ind.
Renewal groups should find some way to pool our resources and energy
Posted Tuesday, May 30, 2006
I am very appreciative of the differing perspectives and emphases of the various renewal groups within the PCUSA, but I have often wondered if our efforts would not be more effective if we could find some way to pool our resources and energy. We desperately need the deep theological reflection and Reformed emphasis offered by some. We also need the issue-oriented drive and political savvy of other groups, as well as the enthusiasm for missions of still other Presbyterians. Those on the other side of these issues are well-organized and quite clear about their objectives. We need the same kind of vision, clarity, and strength of organization in our renewal efforts.
Daniel Berry
Do you think God is going to honor PCUSA and its willful disobedience?
Posted Tuesday, May 30, 2006
I continue to read The Layman and appreciate its continued “voice in the wilderness.” However, I left the PCUSA one year ago and joined another Presbyterian denomination that is faithful to the Scriptures and the Reformed faith. My family has been Presbyterian since 1750 and I wanted to stay and fight, but I now rejoice that no one questions the authority of the Scriptures in our church and I don’t have to worry about who is teaching my children.
I have to say, I think the idea or possibility of renewal within the PCUSA is very much decided – it’s not going to happen! The PCUSA leaders have willfully rejected the Scriptures, the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Book of Order. Jesus is quite clear in Luke 10:16, “he who rejects me rejects him who sent me” and in Revelation 3 in speaking to the church at Laodicea, our Lord says, “(3:15ff) I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish your were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm – neither hot nor cold – I am about to spit you out of my mouth.” The denomination has ceased to exist as a whole (there are some churches still seeking to be faithful to the Lord and to the Scriptures). Wake up, how much more apostasy are you willing to swallow? Once this General Assembly is over, you will have to face a majority of liberals who will chase you out of your positions, your buildings and ultimately your faith. You are in the same pattern that happened with the renewal groups in the Northern church in the 1930s and in the Southern church in the 1960s. Look at the history of this denomination and the scoundrels in leadership at the General Assembly – they have rejected Jesus Christ and his Scriptures! Do you think God is going to honor this denomination and its willful disobedience? Quit wasting your time and leave. I am sorry to speak such harsh words, but foolishness is foolishness.
Andrew McCaskill Aiken, S.C.
What do you stand for, not whom do you stand with
Posted Tuesday, May 30, 2006
A common foe is not the same as a common goal. What you stand for is more important than whom you stand with.
Those who fail to learn the lesson of Dr. Machen are doomed to follow in the footsteps of his “warrior children.”
James E. Tuckett The Old Gray Dog
Fuss shouldn’t be about property, but about faith
Posted Tuesday, May 30, 2006
Regarding Mr. Herb Goetz’s letter [posted May 26, 2006], I have some thoughts to share.
The sticking point it seems to me is the property issue. OK, let’s go back to the Bible where it all begins in Genesis. God creates the earth and then turns it over to us humans.
So God in effect gives us humans the control of property. That is a fact. Later Jesus, in answering a question about worldly goods in Roman times says to give to the great Ceasar what belongs to that ruler and to what belongs to God what is God’s.
This raises a most interesting question as to who among us humans should decide what is God’s and what is not. Of course the rub is that if we humans are fussing about what belongs to God and does not, we in effect show much more faith in the worldly goods than the spiritual. That seems obvious to me. So I’m bothered by the fuss about property. The fuss should be over faith and leading others to Christ that has the real relevance in life.
Earl C. Apel, member Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church , Cincinnati, Ohio
No mature Christian would advocate that God’s children disobey his laws
Posted Tuesday, May 30, 2006
PUP’s recommendation that church members ignore the church’s law against ordaining practicing homosexuals makes me wonder how the members of the PUP committee raised their own children. Did they say to their own daughters, “Our family rule is that you do not engage in sex until you are married, but, if you want to be a prostitute go right ahead.” Did the members of PUP say to their sons, “Our family rule is that you do not drink or do drugs, but, if you want to kill yourself, go right ahead.” Is this the way members of the PUP committee raised their own children?
If the members of PUP insisted that their own children obey their family rules, then why are they insisting that the children of God disobey the church’s rules?
I call this being two faced! They would never say to their own children that they could disobey the family rules, but, it is just fine for God’s children to disobey the church’s rules. It is obvious that the PUP committee members have one set of rules for their own families and another set for the church family.
I would place this two-faced behavior on about a junior high level. No intelligent, mature Christian would advocate that God’s children disobey God’s laws. It is a mark of their immaturity that they have not realized their two-faced position.
We Presbyterians don’t talk much about the Devil, but we should as it is clear that the Devil is influencing our more immature members and causing them to rebel against God’s laws.
Jude 7 – “just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Jude 8 – Yet unlike manner these men in their dreamings defile the flesh, reject authority, and revile the glorious ones.
Jude 19 – In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions. It is these who set up divisions, wordly people, devoid of the Spirit.
Jude 20 –But you beloved, build yourself up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; keep yourself in the love of God.
Nancy Forsyth Pikeville, Ky.
We need to be bound together not with ‘Cheap Grace’ but in ‘Costly Grace’
Posted Tuesday, May 30, 2006
We seem to be missing a sense of “joy” in this trial. What if our Lord is trying to do something new? A new Presbyterian denomination may be just what we need, so we can focus on evangelism, prayer and mission work.
Certainly, every session should contact their local county or borough bar association and seek a consultation, in light of the ruling in California-Nevada Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church, et al. v. St. Luke’s United Methodist Church, (California State Court of Appeals for the Fifth Appellate District, F 041778, upheld by California State Supreme Court, December 3, 2004), which allowed the local congregation to keep their property. Each church must determine the effect of this ruling on potential state court rulings. Conversely, if every congregation sought a declaratory judgment as to title of their local church property, in their respective state court at the same time, Louisville could not respond to such a massive rush to the courts.
Maybe its time to think collectively in terms of a new Presbyterian denomination and pay a tithe or exit fee to the old denomination. What binds us is Christ, his work on the cross, his call on our lives, his word and his love for us. We need to believe that he is faithful. We need to think in terms of the future. We need to be bound to each other, in his love, not with “Cheap Grace” but in “Costly Grace,” as Bonhoeffer so aptly put it.
John Almquist
GA actions may be God’s will, not ‘misdirection’
Posted Tuesday, May 30, 2006
Kay Brooks [letter to the editor, posted May 26, 2006] writes “God may allow the GA to continue in its misdirection for his [sic] own purposes.” There seems to be a pattern among readers of The Layman to assume that any GA that does not abide by their version of “the truth,” is not listening to the Spirit. It is sad that Ms. Brooks is so certain that her own beliefs are synonymous with God’s will that she does a twisting logic to keep God in line with what she thinks. It apparently never occurs to Ms. Brooks and others that the GA actions may be God’s will, not “misdirection.” How refreshing it would be if GA action that is contrary to what we think would lead to some serious reflection about what God might be telling us rather than to outraged insistence that GA has got it wrong again!
Rev. Anne-Marie Hislop, pastor St. Andrew Presbyterian Church, Davenport, Iowa
How about using the ‘More Light’ arguments for ‘More Land’ churches?
Posted Friday, May 26, 2006
In regards to the PCUSA groups attacking proposed changes in church property law.
I have been very fortunate over the years to be able to learn so much from some groups in the PCUSA as to how to present the “truth” of my position in regards to different subjects. Therefore, I would like to suggest the following:
1) If Jesus would really have wanted us to have church property held in trust for a denomination, he would have said so. Since Jesus never said anything in regards to church property, (in fact, no where in the Bible that I can find), therefore we should not have a property clause.
2) Aren’t we really talking about “local option” here any way. Just because it is in the Book of Order, so what? We are only looking for “peace, unity and property.”
3) Let us just agree that this is a matter of conscience and that while we appreciate all the reasoning being presented, I would like you all to know that I have a “scruple” with this particular part of the constitution. That means that I can’t be held accountable, right?
With the above in mind, I am going to start an organization of “More Land” churches. Anyone want to join?
Herb Goetz Slippery Rock, Pa.
Some random musings in response to a couple of recent letters
Posted Friday, May 26, 2006
I would like to make some random musings in response to a couple of recent letters. First, to Meghan Foote [letter to the editor, posted May 24, 2006]. Your attempt to paint a universalist picture of salvation based on the idea that all authority on heaven and earth are given to Jesus and thus no one can seek salvation outside of heaven and earth is clever, but not quite clever enough. It is true that God has granted all authority to Jesus Christ, but so far as I know, he has not prevented human beings from rejecting Jesus’ authority even as they have always rejected his own. In rejecting Jesus’ authority, specifically his desire for all people to trust in his own sacrificial death for sin and God’s raising him from the dead as the first fruits of salvation, and to be baptized in the triune name of God so that as faithful participants in relationship with God we can be indwelt by the Spirit, transformed and sanctified by the grace of Jesus Christ, and love and obey God, some do seek other means of salvation “in heaven and on earth.”
If Jesus’ authority is exercised regardless of people’s attitudes, faith commitments and actions, then Jesus must authorize or even enact all the sins and acts of evil in this world. Would that be something you believe, too, Meghan? Did Jesus intend Hitler and his henchmen to kill in excess of 6 million human beings? Did Jesus authorize Stalin and his henchmen to kill in excess of 30 million human beings? Did Jesus give Mao permission to kill over 70 million human beings? No wonder we should have let old Saddam alone – his number haven’t gotten that high yet, and he is doing it under Jesus’ authority! Right, Bob Vitray?
Bob [letter to the editor, posted May 24, 2006], you make several assertions about The Layman ostensibly supporting the war. I don’t know that the editorial position of the publication or the organization ever took such a clear stand – if they did you should document it, if your real goal is truth. Some of the other assertions you make about the president’s national guard service and about the swift boat officers who challenge John Kerry’s record also lack documentable proof. As Christians, we all should do what we can to prevent war – most notably seeking to make disciples of all nations and peoples. However, as sinners, we must also recognize that evil can grow and that governments and the powers at their disposal (namely military powers) may sometimes have to be used – always with regretable effects as well as salutary ones. Salvation finally does belong to the Lord and specifically to Jesus Christ. Partisan political positions neither improve or negate the partial and equivocal nature of all human actions. Welfare is as flawed as warfare. (Don’t mistake me as equating the two – helping ministries are always to be desired over constraining actions, but neither will ultimately save anyone or the world.)
Rev. Scott R. Mackey Highland Presbyterian Church, Tyler, Texas
God may allow the GA to continue in its misdirection for his own purposes
Posted Friday, May 26, 2006
John Cowan’s letter of 5/24 should be digested carefully by all. While most of us believe “God’s will be done,” let’s not make the mistake of assuming that whatever happens at the GA, it is God’s will for us to stay in the boat. God’s plan is not always obvious to us, and it may not be revealed for years. God may allow the GA to continue in its misdirection for his own purposes. “Personal courage and personal action” – I am using Mr. Cowan’s words here because they are profound. Those who have ears, let them hear!
Kay Brooks Irving, Texas
Left should hold U.S. enemies to the same standards that they hold our soldiers
Posted Friday, May 26, 2006
With regards Mr. Vitray’s letter of May 24, 2006 (Are We Prayerfully Committed to Kill an Iraqi for Christ?):
I am not sure what to make of this. The historical facts mentioned in this letter are so bizarrely skewed as to make me wonder if this letter is a parody of the leftist/liberal attitudes toward all things “Bush” or a fine example of irony and/or sarcasm concerning the leftist position on the War on Terror.
However, if Mr. Vitray is, indeed, serious (and certainly his standing as veteran gives him greater authority); may I point out just a few little problems here.
I am a career military Kind-O-Guy. I am a veteran of each and every action fought since Vietnam all the way through Afghanistan. I missed Panama since I was serving in my first church after seminary prior to returning to active service with Desert Shield/Storm as a Chaplain. I like to say that I started with Vietnam and finished in Afghanistan. I hold the Legion of Merit, the Bronze Star Medal, two Meritorious Service Medals, six or eight Army Commendation Medals, and twenty some-odd other thingies for my chest. It still costs me the same to get a cup of coffee now that I am retired; but I think this might give me some status to address Mr. Vitray’s letter (assuming this is a serious letter and not a lampoon).
First: While Mr. Clinton did some very good things (vis-à-vis the life saving actions in the Balkans), building up the military was not one of them. On his watch (though it began with Bush 41), the military was cut roughly in half based upon the so-called “Peace Dividend.” This reduction, of course, took place after the buildup under Mr. Reagan-a buildup that destroyed the Soviet Empire and ended the Cold War but caused so much fear and opposition among our leftist brothers and sisters. (If the American left had its way, the iron curtain would still be there, and we would still be in imminent danger of global thermonuclear war.) Many of his policies (Don’t ask-Don’t tell, et al) caused a great deal of hostility and antagonism among the troops. I can recall, shortly before deploying for Bosnia-Herzegovina out of Germany, the brigade sergeant major had to remind the soldiers not to make any rude noises and not to turn their backs when Mr. Clinton reviewed the troops. I further recall a young man who proclaimed that he was “gay and proud” “falling” out of a third story barracks window in Germany. (He lived through it.) A very detailed investigation was carried out. But, as is usual in such cases, “Nobody saw nuthin’.” Mr. Clinton’s lying in a court of law about his adulterous affairs as well as his famous line, “I did not have sex with that woman.” became a matter of X-rated humor and sheer derision among our soldiers. All of this and so much more would make the statement, “… the fine army built up under Bill Clinton” a pretty good illustration of the word “ludicrous.”
As to the Army “cracking:” Some on the left may wish it to happen. But it will not. I have a number of dear friends in country right now. They are not cracking. One, a Major-a Blackhawk driver–is a bit upset that this is becoming a weekday only war. He knows (as do we all who have actually been there and done that) that we need to pursue the enemy with even more aggressiveness, 24/7/365. We also know that, while Uncle Sadaam and his people were not directly linked to 9-11, they were funding and training terrorist organizations all over the world, including organizations that had attacked and would continue to attack Americans, Israelis and many others in the future. We also know that every terrorist we kill there (most now come from Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and other places-few are Iraqis) is a terrorist who is entirely too dead to cause trouble elsewhere. As to WMDs (and the long-toothed claim, “Bush lied and people died.”): Well just darn. Every single intelligence service in the world believed that those things were/are there. Sadaam’s general officers and field commanders thought they were there. Personally, I am not sure that they aren’t/weren’t. Iraq is a big place. There are lots of places to hide stuff. And, shortly before we moved on Iraq, long convoys were seen via satellite imagery headed from suspected storage sites in Iraq and into Syria. And when we have found small WMD depots, the goal post has been moved by the left. “They are old munitions.” or “There aren’t that many of them.” or some other such balderdash is what we get to hear. And one must wonder, on 26 April 04 (about a year after our invasion) exactly where Al-Qaeda got 20 tons of chemical agents with which to attack the US Embassy, the Jordanian Royal Palace and the Jordanian Intelligence Headquarters. Fortunately, the attack was thwarted. But such an attack, given the correct environmental conditions, could have killed 80,000 people. Twenty tons of chemical material is not something one makes up in the kitchen while watching an old episode of “Designing Women.” I don’t hear much about that from the “Bush lied and people died” crowd. Nor do we hear much about the dozens of other attacks against the United States by Islamic terrorists (of which Al Qaeda is merely a part). Check the Web site for more information.
And we are not amused by those who would convict the Marines who are accused of committing war crimes before they have had a trial. They are going to be courts-martialed so that we can find out if they are, in fact, guilty. If they are, the sentences will be terrible. Gee, I wonder if those who blew up our embassies in Kenya, the WTC in 1993, and other atrocities will be held over for trial. No? Hummmm. Could there be a double standard at play here?
I do wish that the left would hold the enemies of the United States to the same standards as they hold our soldiers. Yes. Bad and evil things happen in the heat of battle. Been there. Done that. We do the best we can, but in battle things do get out of control and there are almost always COBs (civilians on the battlefield). That is why they call it “The Fog of War.” Unless you have been so scared that you cannot hold your bladder-unless you have tried to comfort a wounded fellow soldier while you yourself are trying to keep from bleeding all over yourself because you picked up a low velocity metal splinter; you do not know what you are talking about. Unless you have dealt with the guilt of having killed one or more of your fellow men in battle or have participated in the horror of seeing your friends literally blown to bits in front of you, you are an arm-chair general and a Monday-morning quarterback. So you are now allowed to be quiet, please. You may sit in the corner and listen politely, however. You might learn something. But your opinion on how to behave in the heat of battle is not required. Smoke ’em if you got ’em.
I shudder to think what the result would be if we fought WWII under the same constraints that the American left would attempt to impose upon our men and women. I speak German voluntarily. My daughter speaks pretty good Japanese-voluntarily. I suspect, given the strictures desired by the left, such language skills would be mandatory following our defeat in World War II, and I would have no American Jewish friends with whom to schmooze, tell semi-true stories, and drink beer. You don’t win wars by playing nice. (Exit strategy-how about we win for a change!?!)
As to Mr. Bush’s National Guard service: For the 100th time: Those documents presented as truth by the left-wing media were merely crude forgeries no matter what the moonbats at the Daily Kos say. I know they want them to be true, but truthiness ain’t truth and Jon Stewart is not a newsman. (Neither is Rush Limbaugh, but that is for another time.) And, in a time when the Guard and Reserves are an absolute necessity in our victory over terror, criticizing Mr. Bush’s proud (and documented) service in the Texas Guard is particularly reprehensible, especially when set up against the also documented fact that Mr. Kerry was never anywhere near the Cambodian border on any given Christmas and never had a single thing to do with Black Ops except maybe by accident. He was a Swiftie, which is good and honorable. He treated his service as a “Ribbon Run” which is shameful. (He wrote up his own awards-something I cannot fathom.) He was also a man who accused an awful lot of good men of crimes against humanity without any proof whatsoever and who aided and abetted our political defeat in Vietnam on the streets of the United States. (This is not to leave out the lamentable political leadership of the time (in both parties) which was the main cause of making that war unwinnable.)
As to comparing Mr. Kerry to our Lord: Jesus Christ of Nazareth was not for the salvation of all humankind before he was against it. He was an Israeli Jew, not a wanna-be French-ish pseudo-intellectual whose university grades were even lower than Mr. Bush’s. He never nuanced his way to surrender in the face of evil.
I truly hope that Mr. Vitray’s letter is a parody of the absurd positions of the blame-America-first left. If not: Mr. Vitray, the barbed wire tops of the fences (what fences there are) on our southern border point south in order to keep people out, not to hold them in as is true in China, North Korea, Cuba and so many other Socialist Workers’ Paradises. We are not perfect, but we are doing a good job of providing life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to a vast, overwhelming majority of our people. An unjust, homophobic, xenophobic, racist, imperialistic nation would not have a problem with attracting streams of millions of illegals crossing into our country each and every night. The opposite would be true as these victims of American tyranny ran (not walked) to the relative prosperity and freedom of Mexico, Venezuela and Bolivia.
And, as to being happy to wage war: That is almost too silly to answer. I know of no soldier, sailor, airman, marine, or coast guardsman who wants war (and I have served with some of the best). I know of no general officer (and I have served with some of the best) who enjoys sending people to their death. War is the unhappy alternative to being conquered by evil men and women who would destroy us by force of arms. If we cannot get that simple truth straight, then we have lost our ability to know right from wrong and good from evil. We are, thus, no longer Christians. And, if anyone is fool enough to think that radical Islam does not intend this very thing for us-the oppression, the murder, the destruction of our way of life, then she needs to do a bit of reading while she is being fitted for a burquah and buying extra eye makeup.
Again, I hope this letter is a burlesque of the left. If not, it is a marvelous (albeit surrealistic) distortion of reality. Either way, well done, Mr. Vitray.
May you each have a grateful and reflective Memorial Day. And thank God for what our troops have done for us as they fight to make men free.
Garet Aldridge Jr. Chaplain, USA (RET), Orange Beach, Ala.
Don’t you have more important things to worry about than your faith?
Posted Friday, May 26, 2006
Don’t Presbyterians in Iowa have more important things to worry about? I have spent enough time in the Midwest to know that the small churches that dominate presbyteries like your own are in serious trouble financially as a result of the massive population decline since the ’80s farm crisis. At this rate, there will be even fewer people in your state to keep the schools running, much less anyone going to your churches. I am willing to bet many of your churches cannot afford to pay full-time pastors and have declined steadily in membership during the past two decades. I am also willing to bet this has little or nothing to do with denominational politics and more to do with the Iowa “brain drain.” Maybe you should stick to doing the work of the Spirit and evangelizing so that you will still have a presbytery in 2020. Boo to you, Prospect Hill.
Nick Lincoln Richmond, Va.
To obtain the knowledge of Christ, we must seek it from the Scriptures’
Posted Friday, May 26, 2006
Re: OGA opposes overture on authority of Scripture
I offer this commentary on Christ’s words set forth in John 5:39:
- Again, we are taught by this passage, that if we wish to obtain the knowledge of Christ, we must seek it from the Scriptures; for they who imagine whatever they choose concerning Christ will ultimately have nothing instead of him but a shadowy phantom. First, then, we ought to believe that Christ cannot be properly known in any other way than from the Scriptures; and if it be so, it follows that we ought to read the Scriptures with the express design of finding Christ in them. Whoever shall turn aside from this object, though he may weary himself throughout his whole life in learning, will never attain the knowledge of the truth; for what wisdom can we have without the wisdom of God? – John Calvin, Commentary on John
Both this Scripture and the commentary have been extremely helpful to me. They will be a great help to all who will accept their instruction.
Donald G. Nichol
I still belief that each church should own its own property’
Posted Friday, May 26, 2006
I have to agree to the overture. I was against the issue in the original context back in the early ’80s or late ’70s, whenever it was. I still believe that each church should own its own property. If the presbytery built the church with its funds that is different. How many old churches were built by the local people before they even joined the Presbyterian denomination? Many! Just look at how many are 150- to 200-year-old buildings.
D.M. Jones Kinsman, Ohio