By Sara Gregory, The Roanoke Times.
By the time members of First Presbyterian Church were called together to vote on whether to leave their denomination, supporters of either side had little left to say.
In the years leading up to Sunday’s vote, the issue of whether to stay a part of the mainline Presbyterian denomination or leave for its evangelical counterpart has divided the historic Roanoke church’s congregation. On all sides, there are hurt feelings from what one member described as a “torturous” process.
So while congregants waited Sunday for the ballots to be counted and tallied, the church’s pastor, who has been a leader in the effort to leave, urged members to think of one another’s feelings and the church as a whole. Evoking the image of an end zone touchdown spike, pastor Bob Smith urged members to refrain from excess celebration, no matter the vote’s outcome.
“I hope for the sake of the unity of this body we will restrain ourselves,” Smith said, adding light-heartedly, “We are Presbyterian after all.”
In the end, the supporters who pushed for First Presbyterian to end its affiliation with the Presbyterian Church (USA) greatly outnumbered adherents who wished to stay. Out of 182 votes cast by active members on Sunday, 145, or about 80 percent, voted in favor of leaving the mainline denomination. Thirty-seven members voted to stay. First Presbyterian had 298 active members as of Dec. 31.
32 Comments. Leave new
Ahhhh, yes. The Presbytery of the Peaks. You would think that presbytery was run by children. Does anyone take them seriously anymore?
When you entertain secular ideas that radically stray from scripture, failure ensues.
My congregation took this step in 2008. It has proven to be a totally beneficial move. I feel certain that the First Presbyterian Church of Roanoke will have a similar experience.
“the church’s pastor, who has been a leader in the effort to leave” – This is the truth, this pastor and a few uppity session members have railroaded those of us who want to stay and poisioned the atmosphere for everyryone – just a shame and I can tell you those of us who would like to have stayed and had civil talks about this are tired of the spirtual abuse we have sustained at the hands of these “leaders”
80 % voted to leave so there was plenty of people who made up their own mind during discernment. One thing that the “stay” side doesn’t realize is that when you voice why stay and what the PCUSA has become, it only pushes those who know scripture further away. The people you should be charging for this chaos is the national leaders who put the problems on the local church. The last few GA have made Sessions, churches and Presbyteries bear the burden of a divided denomination and the need for people to take a stand on one side or the other. The Session and Pastor
can no longer escape the turmoil brewing in their church because the issues are at their door step. Put the blame on wayward national leaders who even now reap the consequences.
the blame is on the pastor and the inner circle who made up this mess. If you think you know scripture so well and you think this is a good idea, I am not sure what Bible you are reading. This was a whisper campaign by the pastor and a few other leaders about gay people – just sad that so few pushed away so many with thier interpertations. I can read and I do read the Bible, and what happened here was not about scripture
You are delusional. A very clear majority voted to leave. It wasn’t just a handful of people. Are the people wanting to stay really that much in denial? Do you really think that that many people could be brainwashed to blindly follow? Of course not. You sound very bitter and quite frankly, self centered. Slandering a pastor that has been at that pulpit for over two decades is petty. Unless you were on their Session or involved in the negotiations, your accusations are hyperbole. And shame on you for calling members of that Session “uppity” when they were ELECTED and called to serve.
Star city – sorry for your situation. But too common – a group and perhaps a minister stir up trouble and as a result over the years a church sheds members – in the case of Roanoke going from over 650 to now less than 300 – so in the end the trouble causing group wins out.
I hate to say it, but, unless you have access to their membership rolls, throwing out numbers like that is erroneous. Have you been there every Sunday to witness this? Isn’t it very common, actually necessary, for churches to purge their rolls every few years? Move people from active to inactive? You are trying to equate a common practice and procedure to this pastor and the process. Honestly, if there was really an exodus of the magnitude you are declaring, don’t you think that presbytery would have said something? Calling the clear super majority the “trouble” group makes no sense. They were following God’s will and it obviously prevailed.
bastiat – the self-reported membership numbers are available on the PCUSA website, Those are in decline since 2004 although apparently not updated by the church in their reporting since 2011. THIS STORY reports the current 2015 membership: 298.
The process was not going on for 11 years (up until apparently their rolls were frozen), therefore you cannot assume that the gradual decline in membership was due to the discernment process, as it only started 3 years ago. And perhaps people were leaving 11 years(up until rolls were frozen according to their website documents) ago because they did not want to be in a PCUSA church anymore, perhaps they passed away, perhaps they moved locations, perhaps they quit going to church, perhaps they were more liberal in theology and wanted a better fit. My point is, you cannot place blame on a “trouble group” when there are so many more logical explanations as to why any church sees a decline. And also from the PCUSA website, membership is down across the board.
Bastiat. By far, the greatest decline is since 2011, when the membership was about 560. As the saying goes: “you can look it up!”
And you missed my point entirely. No one is arguing that there was a decline, it is the reasoning you are presuming. Purging rolls before a process such as this would be the smart thing to do, as something like this would only affect active voting members, not those that have been placed on inactive or have left.
In fact, what you said was that a gradual decline rather than a massive decline after 2011 supported your viewpoint. But I agree that “purging rolls” would be a “smart thing” if your goal is to prevent all of those members alienated by the so-called leadership from showing up to vote against you.
Again, missing my point entirely. Legitimate people leaving for the reasons you are eluding to, is the argument here. You are trying to place blame solely on this action taken by the Session,congregation, and the pastor and the so called “trouble group”. And purging rolls is a very smart thing to do! You want to be aware of who your active members are for a ton of different reasons. Has nothing to do with “alienating”. Why not ask those people yourself if they asked to be removed instead of assuming.
Star City Gal, even though I myself am in the EPC, I want you to know that you are very much in my prayers.
My parents went through a similar kind of situation when their home church, the one in which I grew up, departed some years back for the PCA. My parents opposed that move, but were in the minority. After the vote, some of their friends chose to say with the church, but they felt that they needed to move their membership elsewhere.
The bottom line is that what my parents’ church went through was a painful business for everyone involved, one that left scars on people on all sides of the conflict. So it has also been for you.
Healing may take time, it usually does, but as Christians we believe that all things work together for our good, even very painful things like the conflict that you and others have been through at FPC Roanoke.
May God grant you his peace in the days ahead.
This group, led by the pastor, has been activly working to alienate moderate members so they can rig a vote to leave based on thier warped and “conservative culture” (gays are bad) based interpertations of scripture. The roll purges were timed to support thier desired goal – leaving PCUSA for the pseudo-congregationalist EPC, where they can do pretty much whatever they want with no real accountability.
While I truly am sorry that this did not turn out the way the minority hoped, I do feel that you are treading on some serious water there. It is a painful situation for both sides, I am sure, but claiming and presenting as fact that there was vote rigging is not something to throw around. These are men and women of God, ordained and elected as such. I am praying for you and the other 30 some people as well as the majority of this church. May God bless you all.
A basic tenant of leadership is that you never bring something to the floor or a vote until you know what the results will be. In matters of church schisms, departures, etc. I would never bring such a resolution to the floor until the groundwork and labors were done that ensured a 90-95% plurality in favor of the motion. Leave little doubt about outcome or the process getting there.
That said, for the 15-20% that voted on the other side. If you really love your PCUSA there are plenty of other nominal Christian buildings in your local area where you can go and nap. Like or hate the Pastor or the process, you lost, you are not getting your church back. Fight it, lawyer-up, sue, get injunctions, throw money down the PCUSA black hole. The results will not change. And even if you did get the building back at the end of the day it will be a hollow shell, chained to a denomination is the process of collapse and institutional chaos.
Read what this pastor is saying – this is exactly what happened – lie, scheme and alinate everyone except your chosen few – those who adore you and are completly in tune with your culturally conservative interpertatins of scripture thereby rigging the process. Exactly what happened – as for your judgmental and sarcastic comments about those who want to stay – get a life there Peter
Thanks you – hard to find peace when you know what was going on and how this played out – but God is good and I will focus on that
“lie, scheme and alinate everyone except your chosen few ”
By chosen few, you mean 80% of the congregation?
I think star city is aware of the numbers. 145 were persuaded to vote to leave the PCUSA, in a church whose membership not very long ago was 550-650
The membership numbers, whether high or low, at the end of the day are irrelevant. The majority of the active membership voted to leave, whether it was 80% of 100 members or 80% of 10,000 members. The majority at that church wants to leave and will. Prayers for both sides and praying that First will flourish now!
Guys, forget the gay issue entirely – OK, without that, there are scads of reasons why people might want to leave PCUSA. Read the GA 2012 and 2014 charts of decisions of how they all voted. This pastor didn’t need to “poison” anyone – read the results of the conferences – and pay attention to the direction for 2016. You can still get them on the PCUSA website if you play around with topics and find them. They are listed clearly. Then criticize but base it on the facts that started this. The gay marriage is just one of the topics – really, this picture is much bigger than just that issue.
“Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.” Ephesians 4:31-32
As a member of this church I’m saddened by the tone of these comments. It has been a long and emotional journey for both sides. There are so many reasons for the move to leave the PCUSA. I’m for being equal and fair but our country has given up its beliefs to be politically correct and now the PCUSA and other denominations are trying to make the Bible politically correct.That is not how it works. I will say that the pastor and session were guided by their faith and love of Christ. I know this because my spouse was one of the uppity sesion members who did not take these choices lightly or without thought and prayer. The fact that this move was anything but gracious on the part of the Presbytery,caused a great deal of dissension among members. It has put a great strain on families,friends, and members. The decision has been made, my prayer is that each of us can move on and heal. Yes it will take time but these hateful words do not help, I understand some are hurt and angry,but we are children of Christ, let’s reflect that in our thoughts and actions. I would hope that everyone can still learn and share the love of Christ no matter what church you belong to.
Having served God among you many years ago, I pray for God to give you wisdom to see clearly as you continue to “feed the 5000”.
So it is a total coincidence that these churches vote to leave after gay marriage is approved?
Right. Sure.
Everyone that is at First and in the majority are aware of the prayer, time, and commitment that was put into this process. It undoubtedly was just as stressful and agonizing on the spouses of the Session members. I can only imagine what it was like to watch your spouses come home battered and worn out from one punishment after another from the AC, and for what? For our church wanting to get back to it’s roots, back to the heritage from which she rose back in 1851. It is unfortunate that maturity is lacking in some of the posts on this page, but rest assured, continued prayers are always going out for our beloved pastor and the session who worked so hard to fulfill the will of God for our historic congregation. We have survived, by God’s strength and promises,we will continue to thrive!
Dear friends at FPC Roanoke. Thank you for your courage and endurance in seeking to be faithful to what you believe God has called you to be and to do.
At the hands of your presbytery you have endured a long and dehumanizing process designed to sow dissension, animosity and conflict among your members, the extortion of hundreds of thousands of dollars of your church’s money, and the theft of your church’s manse. Yet you have deemed all of this a price worth paying in order to be faithful to the Gospel. I cannot tell you what an inspiration this is.
Let me encourage you to be gentle with each other as you recover from this ordeal over the coming years. Let me also encourage you to ignore the hateful attacks of those who slander you because of your witness to the truth. God alone is your judge. I suspect, however, that when he renders his judgment, it will be: “Well done, good and faithful servants.”
As a member of the EPC, let me tell you that it is a honor to welcome you into our denomination. I am sure that we will be blessed by your presence among us. I hope only that we will prove ourselves worthy of the confidence that you have placed in us.
God bless you all.
Solafida, when I read troll comments like the one to which you have responded here, I can only think of Mr. T’s famous line from the TV show A-Team: “Pity the fools.” Trolls really are to be pitied, and they do very much need our prayers. Without exception, the trolls on this site are PCUSA defenders who attack those whom they perceive to be enemies of their group and its agenda. That people such as this are drawn to the PCUSA is a more damning indictment of the spirit that is at work within the PCUSA than anything anyone of us could possibly say. Peace.