EOP and Synod of the Sun’s behavior an embarrassment to Christians
Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008
The behavior in the Kirk of the Hills property issue of the Presbytery of Eastern Oklahoma and the Synod of the Sun should be an embarrassment to Christians of every denomination everywhere. Where is Christian charity and love? They have clearly provided a good reason for the Kirk to leave by their behavior, if for no other reason.
It seems to me that the Kirk of the Hills now has only one option. The Kirk must appeal the decision of the trial court in hope of getting the trial court’s decision overturned. If the Supreme Court of Oklahoma were to revisit the matter of church property in Oklahoma, “neutral principles of law” might become the new rule in Oklahoma. Such a decision, if it could be obtained, would be helpful not only to the Kirk of the Hills, but also to every congregation of every denomination in Oklahoma.
George Hill Port Allen, La.
EOP is shaking down the Kirk for everything down to its last paper clip
Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008
I suppose most of us have read stories of pirates. We’ve watched movies about Long John Silver and his famous “Harrr!” We know about walking the gangplank, ships flying the black Jolly Roger flag, and the song, “sixteen men on a dead man’s chest, yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum.” Piracy continues today. In the seventies, Vietnamese “boat people” were bedeviled by pirates. Today, there’s piracy in the Indian Ocean. An oil tanker carrying $100 million worth of oil has been seized, under the noses of an international naval force.
But another form of piracy is taking place in Oklahoma. The Eastern Oklahoma Presbytery (EOP) is shaking down Kirk of the Hills church for everything down to its last paper clip. And it, the presbytery, is being aided and abetted in this piracy by a civil court.
I seem to recall reading in Exodus 20 “Thou shalt not covet,” while in I Corinthians there is quite an explicit injunction against taking brothers to court. Fortunately, other PCUSA presbyteries are behaving more reasonably and scripturally. For the EOP, what they gain by ravishing Kirk of the Hills will be lost through the extremely bad PR. One wonders if they’ll hoist the Jolly Roger flag upon the steeple of the church. Such coercive tactics are short-sighted, self-defeating, and will only give ammunition to their opponents.
When the largesse from the looting of the church is spent, they will perhaps find that they are still in financial shortfall, and that cannibalization of congregations yields no long term solutions to anything. Throughout history, conquerors have had their empires crumble after the loot captured from conquered peoples was consumed. Whatever happens in the future, the fact remains that the PCUSA is ageing, dwindling and losing credibility. In the light of that, nobody cares what they think about tomato pickers and other social issues.
If only the Kirk of the Hills case could go all the way to the United States Supreme Court – harrr!
Larry Brown African Bible College
Thanks for Berkley’s cogent, to-the-point and timely articles
Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008
Thank you, Jim Berkley, for your cogent, to-the-point and timely articles including those you penned about the Covenant Breaking Network that met in Minneapolis earlier this month and your commentary posted on Nov. 15 about presbyteries rolling over.
Tim Held
Demands are vomit-inducing
Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008
The Presbytery of Eastern Oklahoma’s demands for bank account monies, furniture, Bibles and the like against Kirk of the Hills are, to my mind, vomit-inducing. John B. Erthein Erie, Pa.
Something terribly Orwellian?
Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008
Is it just me, or is there something terribly Orwellian about someone lecturing us to participate in breaking God’s law because “marriage is sacred?”
Pastor Russ Westbrook
Liberals submit Scripture to the procrustean bed of a man-centered worldview
Posted Wednesday, November 19, 2008
In his November 17 letter, Earl Apel claimed, “liberals believe the Word is to be taken as a whole and as a witness to the living God.” On the surface, it appears that Apel is making the incredible claim that liberals believe that the Bible should be believed and obeyed as a witness to the living God. However, there is a subtle sophistry in his words, and the key to understanding what he is saying is written earlier, when he said that the individual to whom he addressed his missive should “simply read the Word of God in our Bible for guidance” (emphasis added). Without coming out and saying it forthrightly, he denies that the Bible is the Word of God written (as we profess in our Confessions, Book of Confessions §5.003, §6.002).
Now consider the words of the Apostle Paul in II Timothy 3:16-17, of the Apostle Peter in II Peter 1:19-21, and again of our Lord in Mt. 5.17-20.
The Bible is, indeed, the Word of God written, and as such, it is incumbent upon us to obey its precepts. It forms the solid foundation for understanding who God is and what He is about, who man is and what his problem is, and how God intends to reconcile us to Himself and how we, in the context of that reconciliation, are to live our lives and relate both to God and to our fellow human beings. It forms the solid foundation for the God-centered worldview we are to adopt and through which we are to understand the fallen world in which we live.
When liberals, such as Apel, approach Scripture, they submit it to the procrustean bed of a man-centered worldview. These anthropocentric worldviews twist and distort Scripture’s teaching such that Scripture is made to appear to support their ephemeral causes, and inconvenient parts of Scripture, such as its proscriptions against homosexuality, are either radically reinterpreted within the context of a man-centered worldview or are simply dismissed as not being the Word of God written. As one self-avowed, practicing liberal has put it, “Liberal Presbyterians … try to retrieve, restate, rethink and revise traditional theologies and beliefs in the face of contemporary knowledge and realities. This is what makes them liberal.” (Douglas Ottati, Theology for Liberal Presbyterians, p. viii.)
The “contemporary knowledge and realities” are more real to liberals than the God who revealed Himself through the entirety of Scripture. Consequently, if a teaching of Scripture (“traditional theologies and beliefs”) comes into conflict with the contemporary world’s beliefs and understanding of reality, the contemporary world holds more authority over the liberal than the Bible does.
So then, if the Bible only contains the Word of God written, as Apel implies, then his statement that “liberals believe the Word is to be taken as a whole and as a witness to the living God” might be true. However, if the Bible is the Word of God written, as proclaimed in Scripture and professed by the Church in the Confessions, then his statement is most certainly false. Loren Golden Overland Park, Kansas
Marriage: not sacramental, but still sacred
Posted Monday, November 17, 2008
Whoops. Jodie Gallo [letter to the editor, posted November 12, 2008] correctly points out that I erred in calling marriage a sacrament in a Reformed context. I meant “sacred institution” and, having been raised in a church with no sacramental tradition at all, forgot that “sacrament” means something more specific.
But how is this distinction “at the heart of the debate about marriage?” Is Gallo saying that once we remember that marriage and ordination are not sacraments, we’ll relax and be less rigid about who’s eligible for them? Or that we’ll feel less obligated to make them available to everyone? Kurt Norlin Irvine, Calif.
The truth is that liberals believe the Word is to be taken as a whole
Posted Monday, November 17, 2008
Bill Arthur in his letter [posted November 12, 2008] asks the question if liberals and conservatives would be more effective in ministering to the unsaved by going their separate ways. He notes that evangelicals are trying to save a “dead horse,” and perhaps it is more humane to bury it. He also notes the PCUSA risks being spat from God’s mouth.
I suggest that Mr. Arthur simply read the Word of God in our Bible for guidance. We do have Christ Jesus who did indeed die and I expect many of His disciples wanted to not accept that Christ was dead. Of course the humane thing was done where Christ was buried. Yet Christ surprised us all with the resurrection. Maybe the poor horse that is dead (if that is our denomination) will have an even bigger surprise!
Another truth from the Word of God is how Paul, one that persecuted good Christians, saw the light in the end and became the great evangelist of the early church. Isn’t it nice to know that God didn’t spit Paul from His mouth? And thank heaven that God doesn’t spit any of us in the faith from His mouth!
Mr. Arthur notes that liberals don’t accept the Word but just simply chop, delete and change it to meet agendas that are politically correct and user friendly. I do have issue with the idea that liberals chop, delete and change the Word. The truth is that liberals believe the Word is to be taken as a whole and as a witness to the reality of the living God. So there are no chops, deletions or changes.
I do believe certain conservatives (not all) choose to chop the Word of God in just bringing out certain verses without giving mind to the historical context and overall message of the Word of God in our Bible. These chops I think contribute greatly to the fuss which shouldn’t really be such a fuss.
By the way the new Layman Web site looks great! Earl Apel, deacon Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church, Cincinnati, Ohio
EPC misleading about the ordination of women
Posted Monday, November 17, 2008
When the denominational office of the EPC was questioned about the ordination of women as teaching elders, the response was that the EPC did ordain women. That answer was disingenuous, in that we now learn that there are presbyteries within the EPC that do not ordain women as teaching elders. Why such a misleading statement from the EPC?
Mary Ellen Lawson Mount Pleasant, Pa.
Even retirees are paying attention
Posted Monday, November 17, 2008
Jim Berkley is one of the singularly trident voices we look to for continuous clarity on the issue(s). Hang in there, bro! Even some of us retirees are paying attention.
Larry Wood PCUSA clergy, retired
Bruggemann’s lectures appreciated
Posted Monday, November 17, 2008
Mr. Bruggemann was my professor at Eden Seminary. I appreciated his lectures but I learned to approach the Bible with new insight through a personal relationship with Christ. Later I taught the “Book of Moses” to Muslims in Sudan and he sent me a letter wishing me well. Marjorie R. White
We agree: The house is broke
Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008
Interesting that Stacy Johnson in his speech to the Covenant Network gathering says “Our house is broke” in reference to the state of the PCUSA. This about the only thing to agree with in his message. Many evangelicals feel the same way, yet we continue trying to revive a dead horse. Rather than continuing to beat the poor thing, wouldn’t it be more humane to bury it?
I know that this does not go over well with many pastors and laymen who have strong ties with the word Presbyterian, but shouldn’t we be more connected with the true Church, the Church of Jesus Christ? Much like the church at Laodicea, the PCUSA risks being spit from God’s mouth.
The Covenant congregations cannot accept the Word as written in the Bible. They chop, delete and change God’s Word to suit their progressive agenda; progressive meaning politically correct and user friendly.
As has been said before, neither the liberals nor the conservatives are happy with the PCUSA. We continue to argue and antagonize each other while our mission to bring the unsaved to Christ suffers. Wouldn’t we both be better off and more effective going our separate ways even though Louisville would lose its bureaucratic power? Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C
Who gets to pick and choose? Stacy Johnson!
Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008
Re: Stacy Johnson tossing verses:
I have often asked rhetorically, who gets to pick and choose which Bible verses to believe as inspired by God and which to toss out as irrelevant to our times. I now have an answer to my question, Stacy Johnson! I’m afraid to ask what comes next. Roger Clark Sequim, Wash.
Berkley’s article on Brueggemann was outstanding
Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008
Just a quick note to tell you I think Jim Berkley’s article on Mr. Dialogical Brueggemann was outstanding. Good work! Walter Ray
Berkley will provide needed gravitas to your useful publication
Posted Wednesday, November 12, 2008
Thank you for James D. Berkley’s insightful reporting from the Covenant Network Conference. I hope he can continue to write for you; he would provide needed gravitas to your useful publication. Mariam Touba New York City