Beware the Louisville Gestapo
Posted Friday, October 31, 2008
Do you remember back when the Presbyterian Church was a place to worship God and His Son Jesus? After reading the GAPJC ruling I am starting to envision a PCUSA manned by people in brown uniforms (not UPS) wearing jack boots and wielding clubs to keep us simple souls in line. Soon informants will be reporting on ministers and session members who meet in private on ways to get around the Louisville Gestapo. Pastors and sessions will be replaced with more brown shirts and church services will resemble those in the Chinese state-run churches. Five times a day we will bow facing Louisville and chant “Gradye is good.”
Far-fetched? Possibly, but maybe not. The GA and Louisville gang are hard at work to make the PCUSA meaningless as a place to worship the true God. God is being replaced by a user-friendly, kindly, anything-goes image that expects little from his servants. We are being held hostage by our property – property we paid for that good stewardship prevents us from abandoning. Today, I read that the Presbytery of Central Washington is considering taking all its churches out of the PCUSA and into the EPC with their property. Gutsy! Interesting in that all property is held in trust by the presbytery and they can now dispose of it as they wish. Why are evangelical presbyteries not releasing the property to their congregations and allowing them to decide to remain or not to remain in the PCUSA? Unfortunately, the only thing holding the PCUSA together is the property; not a common faith.
The PCUSA has lost its direction. The Louisville crown cares more about controlling people and stealing property than it does about being the Church of Jesus Christ. They have to be stopped. Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C.
PJC decision doesn’t address a congregation’s desire to follow Jesus Christ
Posted Friday, October 31, 2008
What we fear most does come to pass. The PJC at the General Assembly level will, in the end support the General Assembly and force member congregations to stay and submit to the will of their Presbytery. This becomes a real threat to evangelical congregations that find themselves in indifferent or progressive presbyteries. There was nothing in the PJC decision that addressed a congregation’s desire to follow the Lord Jesus Christ in a more doctrinally orthodox manner. It never seemed to cross their minds.
When I wrote the 2SynodSolution at www.2SynodSolution.com, I did so because I realized that many evangelical congregations were not able, or could not bring themselves to leave. This means that some 700,000 evangelicals are at the mercy of those who do not, in all cases, share the same faith. I wrote 2SynodSolution, to put a low wall around all evangelical PCUSA congregations, but I wrote it in such a way that everyone had to give up something but everyone gained something at the same time.
We will defeat Amendment B, but a long term solution is needed. We should have a conference with all affinity groups in the PCUSA and see what we can get the progressives to agree to, to protect the faith and lives of the 700,000 evangelicals left in this denomination. Thanks to the G.A. PJC one of the main options, that had been available, is now far more difficult to use. John Almquist St.Andrews Presbyterian Church
Layman has a younger look
Posted Friday, October 31, 2008
I like the new layout and look forward to many return visits. In the future, some podcast or videocast of news stories and events would be a great addition. It would definitely add appeal to a younger generation of Presbyterians. Jeff Barber Defiance, Ohio
A lot of work and thought in new Web site
Posted Friday, October 31, 2008
Your new Web site shows a lot of work and thought. Unfortunately for me, a couple of major items are missing. I usually check your site several times a day. On the old site I could see immediately if there had been an update since the last time I looked. Also, the stories were headlined in order so that I could see any new ones listed at the top. Your new site looks to require a lot more time on my part just to see if anything new has been posted. Pete Allen Mesquite, Texas
Thanks for your letters and others on our new Web site. There are some glitches and we’re ironing them out as quickly as possible. Forebear, if possible. The editors
‘I’ll miss the old bright yellow and blue’
Posted Friday, October 31, 2008
I love your new Web site. I’ll miss the old bright yellow and blue, but this looks like a good step to the future. Tom Gray, co-pastor Kirk of the Hills Evangelical Presbyterian Church
Old site showing its age
Posted Friday, October 31, 2008
Your new Web site looks great. The old site was showing its age. Edward Parker
Reformation of the PCUSA must come from above
Posted Friday, October 31, 2008
I wish to take issue with two statements in Bill Arthur’s letter of October 28.
“There is strength in numbers.” Bill, if you honestly believe that, please read and re-read Judges 7 until you no longer believe it.
“(U)ntil the 16 or so renewal groups unite and get serious.” The fallacious notion underpinning this statement is that there is something that renewal groups can do that will somehow reform this denomination. The reformation of the Presbyterian Church (USA) must come from above. The only reason it has not is that the pastors of our churches have not been diligent to call their congregations to fast and pray for the reformation, renewal and revival of the PCUSA and to continue to do so until said reformation, renewal and revival comes to pass (Ezek. 22:30).
Loren Golden Overland Park, Kansas
Louisville is taking a hard stand against evangelicals
Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008
I find much to disagree with in this article. I don’t consider the PCUSA in general to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ. We have become so culturally dependent and politically correct that we might as well become part of the Unitarian denomination (sorry Mark Roberts, but I am one of those un-named conservatives that cannot describe the Louisville gang as anything other than apostate).
Certainly there are many Christ-centered, faithful congregations and I belong to one, but the turmoil within the denomination is very disruptive as we seek to serve God. I feel that the majority of renewal organizations within the PCUSA are ineffective in that they talk, talk and then talk some more but do nothing. Only New Wineskins has taken positive action at a serious cost to some of the churches that left. My feeling, as I expressed it to Paul Detterman several weeks ago, is that until the 16 or so renewal groups unite and get serious the PCUSA will continue to knock off congregations one at a time if they even discuss leaving. There is strength in numbers if the cause is right and God will honor it.
Louisville is taking a hard stand against evangelicals. No telling what the 2010 GA will cram down our throats. The idea of putting a 17th synod island within a polluted PCUSA sea smells to high heaven. Would we be willing to send money to the morally defunct PCUSA to support their programs? That synod would be controlled by whims of GA. It is like putting a drop of wine in a bottle of sewage and trying to market it.
I personally am committed to staying in the PCUSA for now. Greenville First Presbyterian is a wonderful witness to our Lord. However; so was Hollywood Presbyterian and look how a liberal presbytery destroyed it. Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C.
God will certainly bless the Kirk
Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008
Members of the Kirk: God will certainly bless you and your church. You are going with Him where He wills and not asking Him to go with you where you want to go. Fred Hoaglin Hilton Head Island, S.C.
The hierarchical denomination can claim local church property by decree
Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008
The title of the article, “N.Y., Calif. courts give property to dioceses,” is an apt summary. The property was a gift from the courts to dioceses which did not pay for it; the local churches paid for the property. The underlying principle of these cases is that the hierarchical denomination can claim local church property by decree. This is contrary to the law of trusts. The law of trusts is very clear: only the owner of property can create a trust, not the beneficiary. In each of these cases it was the beneficiary who decreed the trust. These cases demonstrate a trend in our jurisprudence, a Romanization of the law. Foundational law of this country was in large measure reflective of Reformed doctrine. We the people possessed the rights and power and delegated that power to representative bodies to govern us. The delegation was limited and power reserved to its source. Now, the reverse is the defacto rule. Power is from on high and we can do what the government permits us to do. If the “higher” body declares a trust, a trust we have. Mathew 20:25.
But what about the intent of the people who gave the property? What about the centuries of trust law that said only the owner can make a trust?
As a lawyer, I can often tell whether another lawyer comes from a Roman church background by his/her underlying assumptions about the law. It now seems that the courts are making personal worldview assumptions about denominational polity which color their rulings rather than asking what does the law say. This should be a warning to us as Presbyterians that we need to always ask the underlying foundational question: what do the Scriptures and the Holy Spirit say. (They never disagree.) We need to trust in the long run to the sovereignty of our Lord. He will be glorified and we who love Him and are called by Him will enjoy Him forever.
The California Supreme Court is now considering the question of whether a religious denomination can make a trust in property they do not own. In New York, we cannot be sure whether the question will go forward. For the local Episcopal church, All Saints, the only option is to petition the U.S. Supreme Court. Let us pray that we have not strayed so far from Him, that the Lord will permit these outrageous rulings to stand, so that we will then be driven back to Him as our only refuge. Soli DEO Gloria.
Donald G. Nichol, an elder Walden, N.Y.
Trust had to go to the presbytery
Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008
In your article regarding exit fees for churches leaving the PCUSA, you stated that Beverly Heights Presbyterian Church “forfeited a $465,655 trust account.” Two clarifications need to be made regarding that trust. That trust account was transferred to the Pittsburgh Presbytery by terms of the trust documents due to the fact that we left the PCUSA. Therefore, this trust would have gone to the presbytery even if we were released free and clear. Even more important is the amount that you reported. The actual value of the trust at the time of transfer was approximately $66,000 not the amount that you listed in the article. Ernest W. Dietz, elder Chairman of Finance Committee, Beverly Heights Presbyterian Church
Do Coalition members believe it’s God’s will for the PCUSA to survive?
Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008
I may have missed it but do the members of the diminished Coalition believe that it is God’s will for the PCUSA to survive? Maybe it was there but I didn’t see that stated in the last very lengthy response given by the Coalition to the recent heresies by the PCUSA. All that I saw was a statement that the members of the Coalition felt called to stay in the PCUSA. This distinction is the one that makes all the difference.
Richard Tyler McGrath Mechanicsville, Va., Former Elder and member of PJC of the Presbytery of the James
Many have chosen to take a stand here where God has placed us
Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008
Thanks for the coverage of the Coalition meeting. Although a number of churches have left the denomination there are plenty of us who are left who have not given up the battle for the PCUSA. The struggle for the culture will not go away by simply leaving the PCUSA. Many of us have chosen to take a stand here where God has placed us. The non-geographic synod model is an excellent idea for gathering evangelicals for fellowship, accountability and mission. A way for evangelicals to move to a more conservative presbytery also needs to be found. I would also suggest non-geographic presbyteries as well. The writer of this article was clearly biased towards leaving the denomination. My suggestion would be for him to write exclusively for the Evangelical Presbyterian Church or the Presbyterian Church in America rather than continuing to vent about the PCUSA. Make helpful suggestions to improving the situation or change your focus to another group.
Greg Wiest Glade Run UP Church
The Lord will continue what He’s begun
Posted Tuesday, October 28, 2008
The Lord won’t ignore the grace of what’s taken place (He initiated it), and He’ll continue what He’s begun. Alec Ream Ann Arbor, Mich.
Evangelicals held hostage
Posted Monday, October 27, 2008
When churches in the South left the denomination during the Civil War, did the denomination ever recover “their/our” church property? No! When churches joined the More Light movement and acted in defiance of Scripture and the Book of Order, were their churches seized, sessions ousted, and ministers removed from office? No!
We face all of these sanctions now that the liberal and apostate have taken over our denomination. I feel that the evangelicals of our denomination are being held hostage through the intentionally harsh and decidedly un-Christlike behavior of presbyteries, synods, and the den of thieves located in Louisville. How can there be any sort of respectful and faithful discourse, as Moderator Reyes-Chow suggests, in the current climate? Unless we can enter a conversation as equals, how can there be any expectation for a just, faithful, and loving outcome where Christ is honored? Charles Jeffries Concord, Calif.
P.S. I’ve been a member of the denomination since 1973, when I joined as a teenager. It really is too bad my denomination left me.