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have to separate ourselves from those who do not believe as we do' August 20, 2008 In the story about the Presbyterian Global Fellowship gathering in Long Beach, Paul Detterman, executive director of Presbyterians For Renewal, in response to questions about delays in action was quoted as saying "What we are doing here is the equivalent of ecclesiastical brain surgery." There may have been a time in my life when I would have accepted that statement, but now that I am old, I have come to realize that in many cases things are not nearly as complicated as we would like them to be. Many times claims of complexity give us welcomed excuses for inaction. I don't believe that there is a shortage of people in our congregations who know what has to be done. We have to separate ourselves from those who do not believe as we do. Individual Presbyterians have been doing this for more than 30 years. A relatively small number of individual congregations have tried to separate, with mixed results. What is lacking is leadership that would allow a large number of congregations to separate at one time. As long as Louisville has the luxury of dealing with troublesome congregations one at a time, the odds are in Louisville's favor. If many congregations in many presbyteries all rose up and separated and filed the necessary civil papers at the same time, the situation would be very different. The various renewal groups and the "tall steeple" churches (also mentioned in the Layman's story) have a great opportunity to lead in action and not just in talk. Pete Allen First Presbyterian Church Mesquite, Texas Peace will never be found through negotiating with error August 20, 2008 In the Garden of Eden Eve was told the big lie, "You will not surely die." Look what happened. In 1939 Neville Chamberlain was told a big lie, "No, I won't invade Poland." Look what happened. Today we are being asked to believe another lie, "God has changed His mind about sexual immorality." Look what is happening. As Jesus has told us, "Satan is the father of lies." The Presbyterian General Assembly opened the door 35 years ago to listening to those in error. So now they are in charge. Presbyterians are being asked to co-exist with what they know to be error. How long will it take them to learn that peace will never be found through negotiating with error? It is long past time for positive and specific action. The options are few. Ted Chapman Arcadia, Calif. No organization is capable of renewing the PCUSA August 20, 2008 Re: PCUSA exec, renewal leaders hear evangelicals' frustrations My friends, we should no longer question the potential of renewing the PCUSA. For more than 20 years various groups have poured hundreds of thousands of dollars and many hours of prayer and labor into the monumental task of turning around a downward spiraling denomination. Overtures have been passed and overtures have been defeated, but the spiral continues unabated and the move into relativism and a lack of belief in the absolute truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ has not just continued, but has become so widespread as to be the dominate theme of the PCUSA. Let's face it, the authority of Scripture hardly ever enters the conversation, the focus appears to be on addressing the latest issue that threatens to divide the denomination rather than on the root cause. There are many within the PCUSA who are faithful to the Gospel and feel called to remain as the remnant voice. For you it is a matter of the call of the Lord and not an issue of property or a threat of ecclesiastical action that keeps you within the denomination. The Lord has placed you in an ever-growing theologically foreign land, but He is also providing you the grace to serve in that capacity. May the Lord bless you and prosper you until that time that He sees fit to release you or to call you into His rest. For those pastors, elders, deacons and members who are wrestling with what the future holds and how they can best live faithful lives before the Lord – heed the voice of Christ our Lord and Savior. Let us no longer think that any organization is capable of renewing the PCUSA, but let's call the faithful what they are – the remnant. It is my prayer, as someone no longer serving within the PCUSA, that those who are called to stay will do so because they sense the power of the Lord enabling them to serve in the role of the faithful remnant. For we who do not sense that call, it is our role to pray for and encourage their ministry and strive to be faithful with what the Lord provides for us. Randy Jenkins Central Presbyterian Church Huntsville, Ala. If you want to go, then go August 20, 2008 After receiving actual hate mail today regarding a casual response I made to the editor regarding a statement that encouraged ministers and congregations to leave the PCUSA, I felt the need to make a follow-up statement to my comment that I made (unwittingly to the public) on August 13th: If you want to go, then go. We are a tradition that supports the actions that are made by the person who is so convicted that they must act (Chapter 1, BOO). It has been what makes us such a broad and diverse denomination. If you are so convinced that this issue takes precedence over God's command for His disciples to work in unity, through civil and respectful actions of love and care, to reach an acceptable conclusion to difficult topics, then please go and take your building and resources so that you can support that ministry that you feel called to do. You would go with my blessing as a servant of the Church of Christ. However, my tag-on point would be to go without wasting your time on making villains of the people that you perceive as your enemies. If you are so convinced that Jesus Christ is calling you to a particular ministry (which I do not doubt He is) then I encourage you to jump into that ministry and not press hatred upon others with whom you disagree. My conviction is that this issue, mentioned less than 10 times in the Bible in any context, is not something that we cannot work through together as a church to discover a Biblical and Holy conclusion. I do not believe that this issue must take precedence over those things that are mentioned in the Bible hundreds of times: God's call for His children to work together in unity to bring in the Kingdom of Heaven. You are all correct: There is nothing in our vows that has us pledge (in so many words) our faithfulness to anyone but Christ – something I mentioned in my original post. But our vows are made to Christ in the context of serving the church. I do not believe that the church is best served through bitterness and anger, through the tearing of the fine threads of gentleness and kindness that have held us together as long as they have, or through our dehumanizing one another in this process. Our vows to Christ are in the context of us serving the church with love – this has not appeared to be a loving process to me. Blessings upon your ministries – my prayer is that they may be more gracious than has been demonstrated here. Rev. Jessica Vaughan Lower 'Stay, fight, win,' must surely become 'Stay, fight, lose' August 20, 2008 At this point, two months after the General Assembly that was held in San Jose, it appears that there will be no mass departure of evangelical congregations from the PCUSA in spite of their anger over the outcome of the GA. Denominational officialdom appears to have succeeded in cowing dissidents, real or potential, using their ownership of property weapon. Currently on furlough in the USA, I have a son attending a day school run by an evangelical PCUSA church; it backed away from seeking dismissal because it didn't want to risk losing the school. I believe that I can accurately predict what's in store in the future for evangelical churches of the PCUSA, using a hypothetical church. Okay, let's say you're the First Presbyterian Church of Mugwump. Pastor Bob, who is committed to the historical tenets of the Reformed faith, and who has faithfully served the same church for more than 30 years, has decided to retire. The pulpit search committee, after several months, calls a pastor who is equally Reformed and conservative. In Presbyterian polity, a congregation calls a pastor, but he is not a member of the congregation, but rather of the presbytery. The presbytery must therefore approve the call. So what will happen when a new – evangelical – pastor appears before the un-evangelical presbytery for examination? They stand him up and ask, "What was the name of Rachel's camel?" The perplexed pastor stumbles. "Uh, I don't know." "Sit down!" they'll respond. "You can't possibly be a member of this presbytery if you can't answer that question!" They then bring forth their candidate. He wants to legally marry his horse, which is a stallion, not a mare. They will ask him, "How many Gospels are there in the New Testament?" He will answer, " Uh, uh, … Four?" "Correct!" they will gleefully shout. "You pass! Take your place as the new pastor of the First Presbyterian Church of Mugwump!" Only thing will be, by that stage, a majority of the membership of First Church will have started a new congregation: Mugwump Community Church. To be such highly educated men and women, PCUSA officialdom appears to be astonishingly oblivious to the fact that while they can prevent congregations from leaving as intact congregations, they can never prevent individuals and families from walking out the door. Eventually, they will find themselves with thousands of buildings with rump congregations that are too small to do ordinary maintenance. So in the future, congregations will be merged, buildings will be sold, liberal seminaries will have fewer placements for their graduates, so their enrollments will decline, and the Louisville headquarters may have to rent space to Circuit City and Dunkin' Donuts and then look like a mall. Already, no one listens when they pontificate about social justice. What an exciting future. But to those congregations that insist on believing in "Stay, fight, win," all one can say is that the inevitable outcome must surely be "Stay, fight, lose." As American culture continues its downward slide, get ready for the time when the presbytery installs the Rev. Boy George as your next pastor. Larry Brown African Bible College Home on furlough Those on the edge (GLBT) will be the more interesting to report on August 20, 2008 The Rev. Walter Hackney (letter posted August 19, 2008) raises an interesting question about balanced coverage on the GLBT ordination debate. Of course you may be able to answer that better than me. But I think these facts should be considered. First of all One-by-One is a group where many who were GLBT at one time revert to being straight. On the other hand the more liberal groups such as MLP, Covenant Network, etc. consist of GLBT folks who are apparently happy being the way they are and see no reason to revert. When it comes to news which is more interesting – those who conform to certain ideas and roles that have been around for a long time or those on the edge that don't? Regarding those that don't conform to the more popular ideas and are on the edge, I think this is what makes them more interesting and worthy of reporting. First of all no clear evidence has surfaced to indicate that those on the edge shouldn't be there. In other words no individual on the edge has been proven to be in such destructive lifestyle or behavior that would indicate the edge is not the place to be. Rather generalizations are often used about a group rather than specific individuals. One-by-One uses personal testimonies as to why a certain person decides to follow the mainstream. The other liberal groups also have testimonies. In either case I have never seen a specific personal testimony invalidated. Until a testimony by one on the edge can be invalidated with specific facts regarding the person rather than popular beliefs, those on the edge (GLBT) will be the more interesting to report on whether it be The Layman or other PCUSA publications I would think. Earl C. Apel, deacon Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church Cincinnati, Ohio There are Presbyterians seeking to obey Christ rather than their sexual urges August 20, 2008 Paul Capetz accused Presbyterians who disagree with him of holding a "Nietzschean resentment toward all persons who dare to live life out of their strengths and passions." Oh, Paul, in case you did not know, there are Bible-believing Presbyterians seeking to obey Christ rather than their sexual urges as you seem to demonstrate. The condemnation of homosexual behavior is written in the Holy Bible – Romans, chapters 1 to 3. Is Paul telling us that his way is the right way, and if I do not agree, I am Nietzschean? Oh, Paul, could you explain what Nietzschean means to you so we can have a more compassionate view? This is the pattern of the radical liberal left. What is next? Homophobe? Racist? Intolerant? The very words the radical left uses against those who disagree with the radical left expose themselves as to who they are. Louis Stephen Nowasielski Wilmington, Del. Throw out logic and honest debate – go with feelings August 19, 2008 Yes, Parker, there is reason to weep for the PCUSA! I first wept in 1971 in a course on "Biblical" feminism at Fuller Seminary taught by Jack Rogers (who later became moderator of the GA) and only months later did the "lights come on" and I realized I and the other students in this course had been manipulated through false grief. Throw out logic and honest debate! Go with feelings and have fun knocking down straw men (or should I say persons?). God bless you for speaking the truth. Lottie B. Haswell Retired missionary living in Brazil If enough members leave, the building will go up for sale August 19, 2008 In reading Stephen G. Brown's article on the absurdity of the property value, I can only say that the irony for me is that the decision to leave should be based on each individual member and not on a congregation. If enough members from any one congregation leave and go to or start another church, the old building will soon be for sale for a lot less than any litigation in trying to save the "idol" would have cost in the first place. Bill Bess Havana, Fla. Looking for more balanced coverage August 19, 2008 As someone who volunteered with One-by-One at the last General Assembly in San Jose, I was saddened to see in the July 2008 issue many references to groups on the other side of the aisle such as That All May Freely Serve, Covenant Network, the Witherspoon Society and More Light Presbyterians (who were very visible and highly organized!) but not one reference to One by One, which had numerous previously gay or lesbians who testified at committee meetings and were available at our table in the exhibit hall (which was just a stone's throw from the PLC booth). We also had a great speaker who shared his story of leaving the gay lifestyle at one of our lunch gatherings, as well as Kristin Johnson, the OBO executive director, sharing some of her story at the other noon meeting. As well, what Jeff Winter shared with the committee looking at redefining marriage (and one committee member's response to it) would be great news to tell the larger church. While I am thankful that you have mentioned One by One in print in previous issues, I would still like to see more balanced coverage between those who support fidelity and chastity and those who don't. Rev. Walter Hackney Minister Member Milwaukee Presbytery God won't bless gay marriage August 19, 2008 Sick … sick … sick I doubt seriously that God will bless this kind of marriage. Doug Gunnels The on-going war within the PCUSA will never be 'won' by either side August 19, 2008 I thought the article by Dr. Mark Roberts in the July Layman was excellent. Perhaps your other readers would be interested in the attached letter I sent Dr. Roberts. Reagan Burch Houston, Texas
The PCUSA has sunk to a new low August 19 2008 In response to this article: Presbytery's claim of assets lists individual church leaders With the advent of naming individuals in property litigation, the PCUSA has sunk to a new low. As Bible-believing evangelicals so often we wring our hands in frustration, wondering what we can possibly do to make a difference in the face of these kinds of intimidation tactics. Here's a modest proposal: If you want to take a stand against intimidation by Louisville, why not ask your church to send $100 to Rus Howard's legal defense fund? Individuals and churches must stand up and let Louisville know that we aren't going to sit on our hands and watch men who are willing to take a stand for Jesus stand alone. Send contributions to:
Aurora, Ill. Trying to fashion a silk purse from the sow's ear thrown by the GA August 19, 2008 "Through the [Lord Jesus Christ] we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of His name among all the nations, including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ" (Romans 1:5). There is no doubt in my mind or heart that we "who are called to belong to Jesus Christ" are to sincerely labor "to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of His name" not only among the nations, but also among the membership of His church as well. Nor is there any doubt in my mind or heart that the various renewal organizations that remain active within the PCUSA share this conviction. Indeed, it is held so deeply that many who are involved in these groups are scrambling to find some way to fashion a silk purse from the sow's ear thrown to them (and to us all) by the 218th General Assembly's apostate actions. These include:
All such investment will be in vain. God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are not going to reshape, reform, restructure, restore or resurrect the PCUSA into a bastion of Biblical faithfulness. The 218th General Assembly lifted up the prophet Micah, drew from the Word of God he proclaimed as a theme, and still proceeded to keep "the statues of Omri, and all the works of the house of Ahab and ... walked in their counsels." Now the judgment of God will prevail: "that I may make you a desolation and your inhabitants a hissing; so you shall bear the scorn of my people" (Micah 6:16). The obedience of faith for the sake of the name of the Lord Jesus Christ requires the PCUSA to "bear the scorn of God's people:" open, unqualified contempt and utter disdain. The only Biblically faithful response to the leadership demonstrated by the 218th General Assembly is to refuse and reject it altogether in favor of following the one and only Savior of humankind. Ah, but some object in the vein of Jessica Vaughn Lower's echo of Eugene Peterson: "I don't know about you, but I took vows." Yes, and the commissioners to the 218th General Assembly – avowed ministers of Word and sacrament or avowed elders all – renounced the first four of the PCUSA's ordination questions (G-14.0207a-d, G-14.0405b, 1-4) in San Jose. By denying the saving power and Headship of Jesus Christ, abandoning the unique and authoritative witness of Scripture, and counting the exposition of Scripture by the confessions of our church as inauthentic and unreliable (to the point of gerrymandering the1967 translation of the Heidelberg Catechism); our representatives turned a deaf ear to being "continually guided by our confessions," stepped out from "under the authority of Scripture," and rejected "obedience to Jesus Christ" (G-14.0207d, G-14.0405b, 4). Pastor Jim Henkel North Benton Presbyterian Church North Benton, Ohio Proud of the steps taken by the General Assembly August 19, 2008 First, let me say that I am and always have been a Presbyterian following Christ's teachings. I attend several Presbyterian churches that have not twisted Christ's teachings the way The Layman and its supporters do. I never ordered The Layman. I have watched over the years as The Layman uses, not the words of Christ, but the words of Jewish "prophets," learned men who were propounding secular, cultural rules, that made it possible for a semi-nomadic, nearly pre-mechanical culture to survive. Reform Judaism has abandoned requiring Kosher, though they recommend many of its practices, which were far ahead of their time for prevention of many diseases and parasites. Conservative Jews hold to Kosher, but pretty much agree that while outdated, it has become a cultural thing which binds them together. In the same way that Reform Jews have abandoned some of those secular, cultural rules, set forth in the part of our Bible that they call The Torah, Christians have also chosen to pick and choose among the cultural rules set forth there. We have abandoned many, such as Kosher, as they have. We have chosen to interpret many others, both from the Old Testament and the New, picking and choosing to find the ones we like best, and ignoring those we do not agree with, and worse, interpreting them, as the U.S. Courts often do, making them out to be something many others do not feel were intended by, say, Congress, the writers of the US Constitution, or in the case of many of your beliefs, the words of Christ, citing these twists as God-given Laws. I have heard, and in the case of The Layman read, many who claim to be Christian take it upon themselves to tell anyone who does not agree with them that they are going to go to Hell. They twist the words of the Old Testamaent and quote it as the words of Christ. They forget Christ's words:
Like The Layman and its supporters, they twist the words to suit their own beliefs. I have been unable to find anywhere that Christ ever condemned homosexuals, lesbians, bisexuals or transsexuals. Those are just the beliefs of individuals. Individuals who have never been there. Individuals who refuse to accept what the medical profession is finding to be fact, once they take the blinders off their beliefs and look at the facts. Among the reasons that I want to unsubscribe to your propaganda rag, is that hopefully, within the year, I will be going by a new name, the feminine name I will use for the remainder of my life, because for 60 years, I have tried to tell people I was born in the wrong body. I am proud of the steps taken by the General Assembly in the town I live in. David Kukuk San Jose, Calif. PCUSA: A disaster in the making August 18, 2008 Re: Hanky business This is a truly accurate description of just what is going on within PCUSA. Refusing to accept God's omnipotence to the very core of our being, and rejection of His Word as it is clearly written and lived out by our Lord Jesus is the recipe for disaster. And so, here we are – a disaster in the making. Ted Chapman Arcadia, Calif. The PCUSA vows do not contain 'until death do us part' August 18, 2008 The concern about violating one's ordination vow is worthy of careful consideration. In addition to the excellent point made by James Quillan (posted August 14, 2008), I would like to add that nowhere in the vows do I see a commitment as to the duration of the vows. Of course, one cannot decide to disregard the vows one day and fulfill them the next, but it does seem to me that an officer may withdraw from the denomination and give up both the privileges and obligations of office and join another denomination without violating the vows. The affirmations do not contain "until death do us part.'" At this past General Assembly, I asked an attorney member of the Advisory Committee on Litigation whether he understood that anything in the ordinations vows were obligations for life; he said that he did not think so. I know that over the years minister members of our presbytery left the denomination to pastor congregations in other denominations. They were graciously treated and not accused of violating their vows. And certainly elder and deacon members who left congregations and moved to other towns and denominations were not accused of violating their vows. Mrs. James Hedden Columbus, Ohio |
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