letters: June 2008 letters


June 2008 letters Archives of letters to the editor
PCUSA has built the 'Ecclesial Wall' June 27, 2008 It's like the PCUSA has built a Berlin Wall around the people who sit in the pews with 2 million guns atop the wall pointing east, to prevent the people from walking west toward freedom. Psalm 58:6. Steven S. Bryant Sr. Pastor, Grace Chapel Evangelical Presbyterian Church Madison, Miss. PCUSA needs to look within June 27, 2008 The PCUSA needs to take a hard look at itself and figure out why churches feel the need to leave instead of trying to blame the EPC. This is just another in a long list of misplaced priorities within the PCUSA. Do you really believe that forcing churches to stay in a denomination against their wishes will promote peace, unity and purity? When a church wants to leave, the only thing we should be worried about is whether or not they will continue to further the kingdom of God. Some believe that being associated with the PCUSA is a hindrance in this endeavor. Tim Rodgers Vicksburg, Miss. New Wineskins, EPC not threats to PCUSA Constitution June 27, 2008 It seems to me that the $2 million sought "from the Office of the General Assembly (OGA) to cover legal fees 'defending our Constitution against the New Wineskins Non-Geographic Presbytery of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church' " is clearly not meant as a defense against our constitution, because neither the New Wineskins Non-Geographic Presbytery nor the EPC is a threat to our constitution. They may be a perceived threat, as they are possible homes for disaffected and discouraged PCUSA churches and individuals. But they are not a threat to our constitution. More properly, it seems to me the money sought is simply to increase the power of the presbyteries against churches inclined to disaffiliate. Our denominational leaders outwardly reject the idea that they are acting heavy-handedly. But to use GA-level funds to reimburse presbyteries for litigation costs in these matters speaks precisely against their denials of heavy-handedness. And even if one grants them the latitude in the lack of intent, one is hard-pressed to deny the end result. I want us to be a part of the PCUSA because we want to be and are called to be. Not because we are forced to be by property rights issues or heavy-handedness. . Rev. Steven L. Seng First Presbyterian Church, Wellsburg, W.Va Where is PCUSA going? June 27, 2008 I'm greatly troubled by this GA meeting. Where is God in the midst of all these debates and conversations? Many speakers refer to God, but are they really approved by God? What is that decision about Christian-Muslim conversation? Did they really believe that we worship the same God? They were very naive and ignorant if they really thought that way. Muslims do NOT believe they worship the same God. They worship Allah, a different God from the Bible. Allah is not the Father of Jesus Christ. How far can PCUSA go on all those controversial issues? I've been praying for this GA with my church members. Joon W. Lee Pastor, Korean Presbyterian Church of Columbus, Ohio Catechism facing change is a 1962 translation June 27, 2008 With your reporting of the vote to change words of the Heidelberg Catechism, you've managed to stir up many readers who trust your news reports. Why didn't you tell folks that what is being changed is a 1962 translation? Are translations sacred and unable to be corrected? If you discovered a mistranslation, wouldn't you want it to be corrected? Sue Williams San Jose, Calif. 'All confessions are not Scripture' June 27, 2008 I hate to break it Mr. Ed Wedin ("Apostate, or just plain stupid?" letter, June 25), but Westminster has been changed on several occasions. The version that is in use now is not the original one approved by the divines. So get over it and realize that all confessions are not Scripture … they are shorthand documents stating what we believe … and thus can be changed … hopefully under the guidance of Scripture and the Holy Spirit. John Judson San Antonio, Texas Simple reactions to GA discussion June 27, 2008 Philippians 3:2 says to beware of the dogs (false teachers). Dogs produce PUPs. If you study the Muslim religion, you'll find that Allah is nothing but a pagan moon god that Muhammad renamed. The Quran says several times that god has no son so Allah can't be the Triune God of the Bible. God never said to worship with other religions who worship false gods. He frowns on that . If we all married someone of the same sex, mankind would soon become extinct. How can you change a historical document? If you change a confession, you no longer have the original confession. You've changed the meaning. God has given us several names for Himself and the rest of the Trinity in the Bible. What gives us the right to change the names? I don't think you're supposed to mess with God's name. Daniel Patterson Colfax, Ill. Trust long gone, replaced by disgust June 27, 2008 The small church of which I am (stated supply for seven years) does not lack in information regarding funding decisions at the national church level. They are quite aware of what is happening at the national level. Their budget has increased over these years, and they have determined to send increasing amounts to non-Presbyterian missions. As to trust, I would submit that their attitude is more of disgust than lack of trust. The trust is long gone, and in its place is this disgust whenever the national church is mentioned. Rev. Loran E. Scott Wichita, Kan. Jones is best hope for new perspective June 26, 2008 This is one of the sleeper issues before the assembly. Far too many delegates look at this election as nothing more than business as usual and the anointing of Mr. Kirkpatrick's handpicked successor. Given the tragically syncretistic and humanist bent of so much of this week, to anoint Mr. Parsons to carry on the failed legacy of our outgoing stated clerk merely insures continued losses, failure and further departures from our reformed heritage and practice. I can only hope and pray that one of the other candidates will prevail in the election, the delegates will recognize the need for a new perspective in Louisville and that Casey Jones is the best hope for that new perspective. I was disheartened by the choice of yet another blatantly partisan progressive as moderator. There is still a chance for balance with the election of Mr. Jones. As an aside, I was amused by the disingenuous comment of Mr. Reyes-Chow about hoping that property was not the only thing holding the denomination together. Is he kidding? If the property clause were removed Friday, the number of congregations leaving by Independence Day would be staggering. Rev. Jim Yearsley Tampa, Fla. More Light responds to story June 26, 2008 Thank you for your article on the Welcoming Worship Celebration on Sunday. Out of reverence for Scripture and respect for our Reformed tradition, I would like to offer a clarification. Your article stated, "A creative service ensued, involving music, responsive readings and almost no Scripture or traditional worship elements." A roughly 20-minute section of the service was completely devoted to Scripture: a near-literal rendering of Genesis 21:9-21 in the form of a skit, and a congregational reading of Psalm 86 (the whole psalm, not the small snippet in the lectionary). This is more time devoted to Scripture than many Presbyterian churches can handle on Sunday mornings. Our people would starve spiritually without continual nourishment through Scripture; knowing that, we made Scripture a priority in planning the service. The service went from gathering to prayer to Scripture to sacrament to self-dedication and being sent out into the world for mission, which as you know is the traditional pattern for Reformed worship. As for my sermon, it held to the Calvinist pattern of exegesis and application. We who have committed ourselves to the Presbyterian Church care about our Reformed tradition. Those are our roots. Heather W. Reichgott National board member, More Light Presbyterians EPC proselytizing 'is an egregious lie' June 26, 2008 It distresses me to hear the accusations many in the PCUSA are making against the EPC. To hear them speak, the EPC is conspiring to remove congregations from the PCUSA. In my experience, nothing could be further from the truth. I know that I am persona non grata in the PCUSA because of my own actions, and I can live with that. But I cannot remain silent in the face of denominational slander. Kirk of the Hills and her pastors left the PCUSA (August of 2006) because our presbytery secretly filed an affidavit, which clouded the title to the property. Having been continually marginalized because of our conservative beliefs and statements, we did not believe that we could receive a fair hearing in our denominations. Nothing has come forth to convince us that we were wrong on this. Subsequent PCUSA actions substantiated our worry. Believing that we had no access to due process, we disaffiliated rather than going through the dismissal process. This idea of disaffiliation did not come from New Wineskins, nor did it come from the EPC. It came from our attorneys, who recognized that there was no due process for anyone who had the audacity to speak out against PCUSA policy on property or even suggesting entering the process of asking for dismissal. Once we disaffiliated, we examined the options before us: continuing as an independent congregation or affiliating with a Reformed denomination. Our leaders rejected independency or joining a non-Reformed denomination. This left us open to join one of the following denominations: the Presbyterian Church of America, the Evangelical Presbyterian Church or the Reformed Church of America, among others. No denomination approached us to join them; it was the other way around (emphasis added). All to whom we spoke were friendly, encouraging regarding our situation, and careful not to influence our decision. When we asked to become part of the EPC (emphasis added), there was no guarantee that we would be accepted. All the leaders of the EPC with whom we spoke encouraged us to take our time in making a decision. There even was some reluctance on the part of the EPC to generally welcome former PCUSA churches because of the uncertain theological background from which we had come. This is a legitimate concern. For example, a PCUSA General Assembly committee has just overwhelmingly recommended eliminating the one, final clear tenet left. The stated clerk's only clear statement of tenets is that the PCUSA cannot name any as essential. It is incredibly hypocritical for the same GA to investigate whether or not the EPC is truly Reformed when it admits no Biblical or theological Reformed standards of its own. If I were the leader of any truly Reformed denomination, I'd be hesitant to invite or admit any departing PCUSA congregation without being convinced of the theological fit. Frankly, admitting more than 50 new congregations to a denomination of less than 200 churches is a serious business, requiring a lot of conversation and discernment on the part of both parties. Such an influx could utterly change the nature of the receiving denomination, altering its direction, theology and mission. It was for this reason that a non-geographical presbytery of New Wineskins churches was formed. As one of the early leaders in the New Wineskins movement and fully supportive of it, I nonetheless joked that the NWAC presbytery was really a decision to quarantine departing churches until we were found to be free of theological malice or ignorance. It was over a year from our disaffiliation before we even asked to be admitted to the EPC. The EPC is not a perfect denomination. It makes no claim to be better or more faithful than others. What it does do is state clearly what it believes, requiring those who become a part of its leadership to affirm those clear beliefs. So, to say that the EPC has been proselytizing PCUSA churches is an egregious lie (emphasis added). Those who are saying this know it to be so. Thomas W. Gray Co-pastor, Kirk of the Hills Evangelical Presbyterian Church Tulsa, Okla. A few laughs for the journey June 26, 2008 Personally, I don't think anybody really cares anymore about the doings of the General Assembly of the PCUSA. But these revisions to the Heidelberg Catechism surely must be intended for comedy. The Catechism is an historical document. Altering the words in the Constitution of the PCUSA is irrelevant. Furthermore, that list of transgressions is a quote from Scripture, not something that was put in for novelty at the time it was written. I think the most amusing is to use words to say that Jesus Christ is God's "natural born" son (child, whatever). Is God part of the natural world? Of course, not as the natural world came into existence at His command. Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary into the natural world. But at the same time, Scripture states that all was made through Him, so in truth He is no more part of the "natural world" than is God the Father. It is also amusing to me that any "theologian" would put their reputation on the line for whatever time is left of this world to give scholars of the future something to laugh about. In the end, orthodoxy will prevail. All else will be thrown on the trash heap of time. History has proven that. There may not be enough years left in our lifetimes to see it happen. But if Christ is long in His coming, it will most certainly happen. William Thomas Scandlyn Harriman, Tenn. RE: Two-year FOG study, Foundation money vote June 26, 2008 I am encouraged by the committee vote on this overture and strongly support the two-year study time for the churches to explore what we are being asked to vote for. I also strongly support denying giving the GAC access to Foundation money. This will surely limit future gifts to the Foundation. Considering the national church's lack of credibility, this move would cripple the Foundation going forward. Betty Styer Donegal Presbytery PCUSA 'destined to drive out more' June 26, 2008 Don't we have better things to do with our money than to allocate $2 million, and potentially more in the future, to investigate the New Wineskins group and how the EPC relates to congregations that might wish to disassociate from the PCUSA with their property to join the EPC? Why can't we just grieve over the state of our denomination that brings a local church to need to make such a choice? With the election of our new moderator, we seem to be destined to drive more of our individual members out and even whole congregations . While my local church and I are still members in good standing in the PCUSA, I have for some time felt like I'm part of a minority group. I often think that those who leave at least have stood up and taken a stand. I know it's important to stay in the PCUSA and continue to stand for what I call an Orthodox, evangelical or conservative point of view, you pick the word, but it grieves me to see what has happened to those wishing to cut ties with us and move on. Elder Steven D. Buckley A request to the Office of the General Assembly June 26, 2008 Are we too far into the protocol of the 218th GA to make another request? If not, I'd like to ask the Office of the General Assembly to assist in defense of the following: 1. The Trinity -- An effort has been under way for quite some time now to emasculate the Triune Godhead. Apparently, it's not flush with the pseudo-evolutionary motifs of those whose views are well outside the milieu of classical pre-suppositional apologetics. 2. The Bible - The beliefs in the immutability and inerrancy of the Father's Word to the elect have been systematically assailed and undermined for decades in the Presbyterian Church by neo-heretical agents within its very walls. 3. Confessions - The latest victim is the Heidelberg Catechism of 1563. Certain portions are being stricken for fear of offending those whose aim is to make a mockery of Christ's Kingdom by endorsing that which the Bible clearly speaks of as an abomination. Frederick the Pious, who was the instrument of God in the introduction of the Reformed faith to the Holy Roman Empire, is doubtlessly looking down at this abhorrent spectacle in sadness! 4. Traditional ordination standards -- The clarity thereof has been deliberately obscured for the benefit of feminism, globalism and various other perversions. 5. The family -- The complementarian model for marriage between man and wife outlined in the Word of God and its proponents have somehow been miscategorized with the African slave trade, the Nazi Holocaust and their promulgators. The above request will cost nothing ... except an earnest petition to the Father to forgive the laxity that partly facilitated the lofty toleration of doctrinal error and those who are unable/unwilling to honor His Word in His own House! This initiative might take a little longer than expected, as we are 57,572 shy of the manpower we had this time last year! Eric Wells Boardman, Ohio Moderator's belief, gay unions make for sad future June 26, 2008 Since our new moderator believes that homosexuality is not sinful, then we should not be surprised at the direction our national church will be leading us. It is only a matter of time before we can believe anything we want. We can be just like the pagans and believe anything or nothing at all. Surely God must be sorrowful at the path of destruction we seem determined to walk. As for GA acceptance of gay unions: Openly flaunting behavior which Scripture has called sin, the General Assembly has shown its disdain for Scripture as God's revealed word. This is just one more instance of Presbyterians denying that God has spoken in His Word. By the time GA has ignored Biblical teaching and started to modify the Confessions so as to be politically correct, the main body of Presbyterians will have very few standards that are any different from any gathering of non-believers. Jack Zika It is Conrad Rocha who is ignorant June 26, 2008 I challenge the member of the GAC Executive Committee who said congregations don't contribute to national missions because the congregations are ignorant. Wrong! It is he who is ignorant. Congregations don't contribute because they are aware of the misuse of funds by denominational agencies. There is a lack of trust. When we see the PCUSA spend money on ReImagining Conferences, pro-communist studies, the Washington Office promoting an anti-Biblical agenda, efforts to weaken the state of Israel and reports which denigrate Scripture, congregations feel their money is better spent on local missions in whom they have established trust. For many years, my congregation has given only to local missions and to foreign missionaries with whom we have personal contacts. We don't trust the PCUSA! The GAC Executive Committee needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Jack Vanderbleek Elder, Northeast Presbyterian Church St. Petersburg, Fla. RE: 'It's official: 57,572 left PCUSA in 2007' June 26, 2008 Liberalism cannot build or create; it can only hijack or destroy. The marvelous large church buildings now under the hijackers' control were built by faithful Christians. As time passes, Christians graduate to heaven but the hijackers cannot attract the living because they have no Gospel. Michael Rodgers Three disappointing occurrences at GA June 26, 2008 On the committee proposals to eliminate the PCUSA's historic prohibition against ordaining practicing homosexuals: They certainly use a lot of words to say, "Don't set any standards and I'll abide by them." On church giving: Mr. Rocha's analysis of church giving "out of ignorance" is totally wrong. People designate their gifts because they know the reason the church even exists is to get God's word to the whole world - and not to support a bureaucracy that is mired up to their necks in secular politics. How anyone in the GAC could suggest that they redistribute designated gifts speaks volumes as to just who the "ignorant" ones really are. On GA homosexual "marriages": It is obvious that PCUSA leadership is suspect in their reverence of the Holy Bible. If they ever studied it, they lack the intellect to understand it or the moral courage to stand on what it says. No wonder "connection" to PCUSA has become a real burden for so many true Christians who heed Christ's warning about becoming "conformed to the world." They see the chaos at the end of this road. Ted Chapman Arcadia, Calif. Brock audience should heed Paul's warning June 26, 2008 "For the time is coming when people when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths." - II Timothy 4:3-4 (ESV) These words, written by the Apostle Paul nearly 2,000 years ago, accurately describe the Witherspoon Society's selection of Rita Nakashima Brock as a featured speaker in their pre-General Assembly gathering. The god that Brock has conceived of is just that -- her conception. Just as her reimagining of church history has no basis in reality, neither does her reimagining of God. The Witherspoon Society must have itching ears indeed if they have chosen to listen to her. They should take heed to Paul's warning in II Timothy 4:3-4, lest they follow her and wander off into myths. Loren Golden Overland Park, Kan. Why put up with this kind of theology? June 26, 2008 This theologian Brock makes me sick because she is espousing a sinless Christianity, and one without the Cross. Why do we as true Presbyterians put up with this kind of theology? As for this 2008 GA of PCUSA, it seems clear that many leftover Reformed churches in this denomination will try to leave quickly. I pray that the PCUSA will wise up and change its course before it becomes an apostate denomination. Charles Freeman Mississippi Apostate, or just plain stupid? June 25, 2008 Let's see, if the PCUSA can change the Heidelberg, to suit them, they can change the Westminster. If they can change the Westminster to suit them, then they can change the Bible to suit them. Does this make the PCUSA apostate, or just plain stupid? Ed Wedin Ruling Elder, Christ Evangelical Presbyterian Church Houston, Texas If this passes, I need a new denomination June 25, 2008 I have never responded to an article in The Layman before, but this one has me very upset. I believe in the connectional church; however, if our denomination passes this proposed change, I will be looking for a new denomination. Although we are a small congregation, I think that 95 percent of our members would agree. Rev. Edward Cummings Congregations are wise to Louisville antics June 25, 2008 The GAC's Conrad Rocha obviously misses the point as to why congregations are designating gifts to the PCUSA. The congregations, rather than being ignorant as he states, are wise to how some of the funds are spent. There is a serious lack of trust in that undesignated funds have been used to support the NCC, WCC, Washington Lobby Office and other agencies of questionable Christian value. The GAC wants to treat designated funds in a similar manner as undesignated funds. Based on past history, congregations would display ignorance by allowing the GAC to take the control of designated gifts away from the Presbyterian Foundation. It appears that the chickens are coming home to roost. Louisville has ignored unrest at the congregational level, resulting in significant membership loss and reluctance of congregations to even pay per capita. The heavy-handed approach taken by those with positional power is being felt by laymen in the pews. We don't like it. The PCUSA is starting to look like the Catholic Church prior to the Reformation. In addition to being unethical, this problem will most likely solve itself if GA allows the GAC control of designated gifts. A majority of congregations would quit sending contributions to Louisville. They aren't that ignorant; they are wise to Louisville antics. Bill Arthur Greenville, S.C. Conrad Rocha on the ignorance of congregations June 25, 2008 Conrad Rocha has it 180 degrees wrong. My congregation does not support the national church and the GAC because we do not know what they would do with the money, but precisely because we do know. And that is the heart of the problem. Timothy Smith Sonoma Springs Presbyterian Church Las Cruces, N.M. God's opinion on homosexuality is clear June 25, 2008 God's Word, the Tanakh and New Covenant cannot be more clear about God's opinion on homosexuality. Off the top of my head, verses are found in Genesis, Romans and Revelation to the effect that anyone who practices homosexuality cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. The best story showing Adonai's opinion of this perversion happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. They were destroyed by God Himself because they would not repent of their sin. In the end times, homosexuals will also be left out because of unrepentance. "Now the men of S'dom were evil, committing great sins against Adonai." - Genesis 13:33. This was before Lot moved to the Jordan Valley. "Adonai said, 'The outcry against S'dom and 'Amora is so great and their sin so serious that I will now go down and see whether their deeds warrant the outcry that has reached me. … But before they could go to bed, the men of the city surrounded the house - young and old, everyone from every neighborhood of S'dom. They called Lot and said to him, 'Where are the men who came to stay with you tonight? Bring them out to us! We want to have sex with them!' … 'Please, my brothers, don't do such a wicked thing … .' " - Genesis 18:20, 21; 19:4-7 The Creator of the Universe said to "be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth." Homosexuals cannot obey that command. Romans chapter one cannot be any more clear about God's will in the matter of immorality. The point is, we either believe Adonai's word and obey it, or we are sentenced to the "lake of fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." We cannot pick and choose what Scripture to believe, and what we don't want to believe. God loves the homosexual, but He hates their sin and wants them to repent (change their ways). His justice is sure and certain. If the Presbyterian Church (USA) succeeds in ramming their blasphemous teaching down our throats, it will be time to say what Joshua did: "Choose you this day whom you will serve, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." A cursory reading of Revelation shows that the world does not repent and a comparatively small remnant will be saved. May God have mercy on our souls. Ora M. Irby Dallas, Texas RE: 'Tug-of-war resumes on ordination standards' June 25, 2008 It's interesting that not one of the sample comments cites a Biblical reference for the basis of their comment. They are all "feel good" positions. Aubrey Sloan Santa Maria, Calif. Green lights for Islam? June 25, 2008 I am absolutely sickened by these decisions. It is way past time for our leaders to wake up to the fact that not all gods are the God of the Bible. Social niceties do not include embracing what God calls idol worship. Our leaders need to educate themselves from people who are former Muslims and now Christians, who know Arabic, are well acquainted with the Quran and can explain what the truth of Islam is. This you do not get from imans and current Muslims who regard us as polytheists, infidels and the Jews as dogs and pigs, etc. They have an agenda for this nation & the world it is Islamization, not pluralism. This is an anti-Christ spirit at work to destroy Christianity. We need to unveil the system while loving the people who are oh so deceived by it. Dot Cutter Calvary Presbyterian Church, Enfield, Conn. New England Aglow Islamic Education and Awareness Coordinator RE: 'Gay marriage celebrated at General Assembly event' June 25, 2008 Maybe women should not be ordained if they are not capable of upholding the laws of the church. The laws were made in accordance with the teachings of the Bible. There are many laws that may not be "convenient" for some people in today's culture; do we just drop the ones we don't like and keep the ones that are "convenient"? I'm a woman and I do not appreciate women who misuse the responsibility of their position, whether it is in the church or in government. Linda Daniels How does gay-marriage minister justify defiance? June 25, 2008 In spite of the fact that the Constitutional Services just released an "updated authoritative interpretation" (April 2008) that says our denomination allows for "same-gender blessings of civil unions" (http://www.pcusa.org/constitutionalservices/ad-op/note07.htm), they still upheld that marriage is still only to be declared between a man and a woman by PCUSA clergy. How does this minister conclude that California law gives her the right to defy our Book of Order? Denny Finnegan Shippensburg, Pa. RE: 'Gay marriage celebrated at General Assembly event' June 25, 2008 I will let God's Word speak! Isaiah 5:20: "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:21: "Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" Isaiah 5:22: "Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:" Isaiah 5:23: "Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!" Isaiah 5:24: "Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel." Romans 1:16: "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Romans 1:17: "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.' " Romans 1:18: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;" Romans 1:20: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Romans 1:21: "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened." Romans 1:22: "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools," Romans 1:23: "And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things. Romans 1:24: "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Romans 1:25: "Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen." Romans 1:26: "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:" Romans 1:27: "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet." Romans 1:28: "And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;" Romans 1:29: "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers," Romans 1:30: "Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Romans 1:31: "Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:" Romans 1:32: "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." Bobbi Clark Florida 'Numbers tell the truth' of Louisville corruption June 25, 2008 To the question of the Louisville loss numbers ("Did Louisville count departing churches in civil court?" letter, June 24): This needs to be broken down, but based upon my casual observations we know that the New Wineskins Presbytery includes nearly 20,000 members from over 40 churches. We also know that a number of churches moved into other presbyteries in the EPC last year. The previous year, the PCUSA lost around 45,000 members. Considering the previous numbers, are we really to believe that only about 10,000 more left in 2007? I know that two churches in our former presbytery have disaffiliated but are still counted on the rolls of the PCUSA. Letters are being exchanged and one church is being dragged to court. Now several of these occurred in 2008, but even then I suspect that adding in all those churches whose departure is being disputed, the number would climb much closer to 65,000 in 2007. Eventually these numbers will hit much higher amounts. The old adage that "numbers lie" comes to mind, but in fact as to evidence of the corruption in Louisville, I think the "numbers tell the truth." The truth is that if they can spread out the Louisville loss, they can argue that the problem isn't that big. Bill Crawford Pastor, Thibodaux, La. On homosexuality, abortion and other PCUSA concerns June 25, 2008 My only comment is that as time goes on, cut off from the teaching authority of the Church, you must put things to a vote; majority rules. So it no longer is truth necessarily that is upheld, but rather the views of those active in and a majority of the GA or individual presbyteries. Raymond Cote Moderator's election 'not a surprising outcome' June 25, 2008 Not a surprising outcome for this man's election! I wouldn't have expected anything different out of San Francisco. Paul H. McKay Ex-Presbyterian Is there even a Bible at the General Assembly?' June 24, 2008 Can someone help me to understand this? A same-sex marriage ceremony was held during a GA 218-sponsored event? I was under the belief that same-sex marriages were unconstitutional, and yet one occurs at the General Assembly! What's even more appalling is that the article claims that God blessed the "marriage." How could God approve of this when this type of unrepentant sin goes against His Word and revelation to us, the Bible? Is there even a Bible at the General Assembly? Patrick Eneix, Elder Sarasota, Fla. Decline and ultimate death of the PCUSA June 24, 2008 My thoughts, for what they are worth: Liberal, watered-down religion has no power or excitement. The fastest-growing churches in the world are charismatic, Pentecostal, conservative churches which do not get involved in gay marriage and other such foolishness. I challenge you all to attend one of the Word of Faith or Word of Life churches, which are growing like wildfire. No doubt, you will find many former PCUSA, Baptists, Catholics, Lutherans and Methodists. I challenge you to survey them why they have left dead, mainstream religions. The reasons are obvious … blessings and may you see the light before it is too late. Harold W. Gilstrap 'Direct what you have now to Christian causes' June 24, 2008 Bonnie Dailey (Letters, June 23) wrote that "[t]he people in the pews should be educated on this problem and get their money back to spend on true 'Christian' endeavors." Yeah, good luck with that. It's never going to happen. The Devil and his allies have that cash, and you ain't never seeing it again. What needs to happen is that you need now to stop sending him your resources and direct what you have now to Christian causes. The past is dead, but the present and future can be a time of faithfulness rather than foolish willful ignorance. And the present and the future are all you really have. Rev. Russ Westbrook Teaching Elder, Riverside Presbyterian Church PCA Moderator's statement on homosexuality 'sends the wrong message' June 24, 2008 Very disturbing and disappointing statement on homosexuality by elected moderator. Stuff like this sends the wrong message and image to prospective Christians and fellow Christians as to what is acceptable behavior. Mark Glossner 'Maybe our new moderator is onto something' June 24, 2008 From the Book of Order, G-3.0400: "The Church is called to undertake this mission even at the risk of losing its life, trusting in God alone as the author and giver of life, sharing the gospel, and doing those deeds in the world that point beyond themselves to the new reality in Christ." Hmmmmm, maybe our new moderator is onto something after all. Kerri Peterson-Davis Co-pastor, Pioneer Memorial Presbyterian Church Solon, Ohio Election continues 'slow descent into liberal madness' June 24, 2008 I was hoping our denomination was turning around and returning to the Word of God as its sole guide in all matters, including to human sexuality. I see with the election of this person, our denomination continues its slow descent into liberal madness. Reading the Q & A, the words of Isaiah came to mind: "Go and tell this people: 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.' " How said to read these words from a church leader: "I believe homosexuality is not sinful by nature and should not be an excluding factor for ordination or marriage." How very sad to read safety tips for participating in the GLBT Pride March in San Francisco, a link from his Web site. Shameful. Dr. Mike Porter Norton Presbyterian Church and Learning Center Norton, Va. How could singular importance of Cross be missed or misread? June 24, 2008 I do not really know where to start when responding to this article. It seems difficult to do so without a sneer. I will do my best to respond in a Christian manner. First of all, let me express that I am no theologian. I am a simple man who has been blessed to be called by the Spirit to know Him by His grace. In the time since being born again, I have tried to read and study the Bible faithfully every day. It seems to me that even in this short time compared with a professed theologian, and with only a cursory glance at Scripture, certain things stand out as "in-your-face" evident. This article states Rita claims that it was not until the 10th century that communion, the idea of sin and guilt, and Jesus' death on the Cross as atonement became common doctrine. If I'm not mistaken, both Paul and John are first century historic figures and the New Testament works ascribed to them are generally unchallenged as authentic. If this is the case, I do not understand how Rita could miss or misread passages that so plainly contradict her claims denying the singular importance of the Cross. Passages such as: "[F]or all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood." - Romans 3:23-25 " [A]nd through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." -- Colossians 1:20 Or: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world." -- 1 John 2:2 If these few examples were indeed written by verified first century Biblical authors, I do not have the slightest idea how anyone could come to the conclusions put forth in this article. In view of these things, I must again refer to Scripture for my supposition of a reasonable answer: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.' " -- 1 Corinthians 1:18-19 I in no way can or would want to put myself in position of judge, but I have to wonder if someone actually read the Bible and professes to be a follower of Christ how they could miss the central event of human history and the source of our only hope. As I hope that all who know me or may read this response will pray for me and my proper understanding of God's Holy Word, I pray that the Lord will open the eyes of Rita and other people within the church who share her view, that they may see Him as He has revealed Himself in Scripture. Perhaps then we would never, ever again feel the need to "re-imagine" God. Kevin Fritz Elder/deacon, Round Hill Presbyterian Church Elizabeth, Pa. Did Louisville count departing churches in civil court? June 24, 2008 I believe that the Louisville-published figure of a 2007 loss of 57,500-plus members is grossly understated. I'm sure it doesn't include those members in churches, like mine, who have already voted to leave the denomination, but because the church property is still being contested in civil court, their presbyteries do not consider those members to have left. That number likely is in the tens of thousands, and in fact, may be as large as the official number of acknowledged departures. Ralph Hord Elder, Kirk of the Hills Presbyterian Church Tulsa, Okla. Foundation proselytizing for 'Christian Communism' June 23, 2008 You are right on. This foundation had been accumulating money for years. What is the annual interest on this 2 billion dollars? Enough to support powerful propaganda called "Christian" when it is proselytizing for "Christian Communism." The people in the pews should be educated on this problem and get their money back to spend on true "Christian" endeavors. Bonnie Dailey 'Whoever does what is true comes to the light' June 23, 2008 Editor Emeritus Parker Williamson writes: "The fact that it went public enraged the letter-writing executives, who insist that the controversy should have been kept behind closed doors." This immediately brings to mind John 3:20-21: "20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." George Hill Port Allen, La. 'Who are the 'sundry anomalies'? June 23, 2008 Editor Emeritus Williamson writes: "Proclaiming itself a champion of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgendered and other sundry anomalies, the Covenant Network ..." Really? Could you be more specific about who the "sundry anomalies" are? To which children of a loving, redeeming, sustaining God do you refer? Is there any place in supposedly Christian journalism for this kind of language? Really? Jesus would describe any of us as sundry anomalies, or be pleased that supposed followers who claim His name would? Really? Patrick Evans Associate Professor in the Practice of Sacred Music Yale Divinity School and Institute of Sacred Music Early second-guessing is very troubling June 23, 2008 Another fine job with "news analysis" by The Layman. Your claims that Reyes-Chow did not demonstrate Reformed theology in his responses to commissioners' questions is baseless. I found myself thinking, "It's nice to have someone so Reformed running for moderator," as I listed to Bruce's responses. If I had a transcript of the dialogue, I would cite specific examples. But to characterize his understanding of "reformed" as being synonymous with "changing" is simply a disservice to both our duly elected moderator and to the Reformed tradition. Bruce Reyes-Chow was elected by a gathered Assembly according to our polity and in congruity with our Reformed tradition. Second-guessing the will of the body, particularly at this early date, is very troubling to me. Why would you begin your reflections on this moderator's term with suspicion, innuendo and critique rather than prayerful, faithful, sister-/brother-in-Christ support? Of course, I'm not sure what else I should expect from a group and publication that stands so far apart from the Presbyterian Church (USA). Jeff Peterson-Davis Brock needs to come to know the Lord June 23, 2008 It is time for the true Body of Christ to let the General Assembly know that we believe that Jesus is Very God of Very God and Very Man of Very Man. He was a HIM. He came to the Earth, preached repentance, which so-called Dr. Brock doesn't have and will never have until the Holy Spirit convicts her of sin. I pray that she will not be able to rest until she comes to know the Lord. Bob Bellingar Brock changing what Bible says to support her view June 23, 2008 Rita Nakashima Brock is right. "Another Christianity is possible," and she's preaching it. The Apostle Paul warned against those who preach other gospels. It's amazing that a person who is so educated can actually proclaim that the celebrations of the Last Supper never had a sacrificial tone until the 10th century. You have to be a moron to espouse that, and I mean moron in the true Biblical sense as it comes from the Greek "moros," which means "fool." Only a fool would say that the sacrificial side of Communion only came in 1,000 years after Christ as a result of power-hungry men. Paul in the first century said, "We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." So what happened on the Cross was "the wisdom of God." Interesting that what happened, as violent as it surely was, was necessary to secure our salvation. If the Cross does not get us salvation, I wonder what does according to Brock. If Jesus' death as sacrifice for our sins was not a part of the early Church's teaching, I wonder why Paul says, "For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." It seems to me that the first century Church is about as early as it gets! The New Testament is filled with references showing Christ securing our salvation by what He did on the Cross. Anyone who says otherwise would be considered a fool by Paul and all the other New Testament writers. Whatever the case, it would be nice just once to see someone like Brock admit that they have changed what the Bible says to be able to say what they say. They are certainly allowed to have their opinion, but they should have the integrity to admit that it takes an entirely new hermeneutic to arrive at the theological positions they put forth. If they want to change what the Bible says, go ahead, but at least have the integrity and honesty to say that is what they are doing. John McWilliams Naples, Fla. RE: 'Overture: Christians, Muslims "worship a common God" ' June 23, 2008 I hope this overture is rejected. I have been attending lectures on Islam. The Muslim line is that "we are all Muslims" until you ask about the Trinity, and then they play this down. I think this is an essential difference, and no Christian should forget it. E.L. Styer Donegal Presbytery RE: 'EPC discusses meaning of "missional" ' June 23, 2008 I had believed that a missional church was one that is a seeker-friendly church where it doesn't matter how you are dressed up. And that it does a lot of contemporary music. Am I wrong with this? This link, http://www.friendofmissional.org, tells what a missional church is like. Charles Freeman Mississippi Presbytery distorting 'intent' in Woodland Church case June 23, 2008 The word "dismiss," as used in the Book of Order, is being diametrically misused in the Woodland Church case. The original intent of "dismissal" in the Book of Order is in the event a church or pastor is overtly indulging in misconduct or willfully violating the Book of Order. Presbytery in that situation has the authority to "dismiss" (disaffiliate) that church or pastor from PCUSA. The presbytery in the Woodland Church case is distorting "intent," just as the ACLU deliberately distorts "intent" in the United States Constitution by claiming "separation of church and state." Ted Chapman Arcadia, Calif. Civil courts do have jurisdiction to resolve church property disputes June 13, 2008 In their June 12th letters, Reverends Sawyer and Seng make some very thoughtful observations in response to Tom Armstrong's June 11th letter. I would offer a complementary perspective. In answering "yes" to the question of whether a congregation can act on its own to leave the PCUSA by voting to disaffiliate, Reverends Sawyer and Seng looked at the historically non-hierarchical nature of the relationship between congregation and presbytery. I commend their analysis. Their conclusions are further buttressed, though, when one also examines the broader context within which the PCUSA exists. For those who think that a congregation can only leave the PCUSA when a PCUSA presbytery grants it permission via "dismissal," they would do well not to forget the "USA" in PCUSA. The PCUSA exists in the context of American civil society and the rule of law. Some officials in Louisville seem to have forgotten that. Relevant to the question of whether a congregation needs permission by another religious body in order to leave a denomination, our civil government includes something called the Bill of Rights, the first ten amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America. The first of those amendments includes not only protections for free speech and religious freedom, but also a constitutionally protected right of assembly. Fifty years ago a unanimous U.S. Supreme Court held that a separate right of association existed that was derived from the free speech and assembly clauses of the First Amendment. In so ruling, the Court said, "Freedom to engage in association for the advancement of beliefs and ideas is an inseparable aspect of liberty. Of course, it is immaterial whether the beliefs sought to be advanced by association pertain to political, economic, religious or cultural matters, and state action which may have the effect of curtailing the freedom to associate is subject to the closest scrutiny." NAACP v. Alabama, 357 U.S. 449, 460-61(1958). Subsequent court decisions made clear the logical corollary of the right to associate: the right not to associate. Just as one who decides to speak also has the right to decide what not to say. It is this constitutional underpinning that has led more than one court to acknowledge the voluntary nature of denominational membership by local churches. When a religious body -- like a presbytery -- seeks to enlist the arm of the state through its civil courts to enforce a claimed ecclesiastical polity that does not recognize the freedom to associate or not associate according to the dictates of one's conscience, that religious body is not only asking the courts to exercise subject matter jurisdiction they do not have (civil courts may not rule on inherently religious matters), but it also is attempting to enlist state action that violates rights protected by the United States Constitution. Such an attempt also violates the Book of Order itself, which states, as foundational precepts in "The Historic Principles of Church Order," that the Church should not attempt to wield civil power nor seek the civil authorities to exercise or enforce ecclesiastical authority. "[W] e consider the rights of private judgment in all matters that respect religion, as universal and unalienable: We do not even wish to see any religious constitution aided by the civil power, further than may be necessary for protection and security, and at the same time, be equal and common to all." PCUSA Book of Order G-1.0301 The Historic Principles go on to say that," [A]ll Church power, whether exercised by the body in general or in the way of representation by delegated authority, is only ministerial and declarative …" G-1.0307. In other words, Church power, in the Reformed Tradition, does not have the force and effect of binding law but instead is to operate by moral suasion only. These Historic Principles were adopted by the first Presbyterian synods in America, and predate the first General Assembly in 1789. Now combine this American context and these Historic Presbyterian precepts and apply them to the question of how the Book of Order must rightly be understood and interpreted when it speaks of how a particular church and the PCUSA part ways. When the Book of Order, at G-11.0103i, grants authority to a presbytery to "divide, dismiss or dissolve" churches, it can only be rightly interpreted as a limitation on other PCUSA "governing bodies," defined elsewhere in the Book of Order as session, synod and General Assembly (but notably not congregations). In other words, a presbytery can dismiss a church, but a synod can't (unless by an administrative commission the synod has assumed original jurisdiction and has thereby become the presbytery).To interpret G-11.0103i more broadly, to mean a congregation can't act for itself and vote to disassociate (i.e., disaffiliate) from the PCUSA, is to assert that the PCUSA is a law unto itself. It is to assert that the PCUSA can act in abridgment of rights protected by the constitution of the United States and the constitutions of the several states. That is nonsense of course, yet this is precisely the pernicious interpretation being peddled by the inaptly named Office of Constitutional Services and Office of Legal Services at PCUSA headquarters in Louisville, Ky. Don't buy it. Even those in Louisville who publicly tout this pernicious interpretation and have sold it to many unsuspecting synod and presbytery executives, must privately acknowledge if only to themselves, that their interpretation is as a matter of basic American liberty and law fundamentally flawed. That is why, in order to keep the denomination together their preferred means of coercion, and where they have instead placed most of their emphasis to date, is seeking legal enforcement of the denomination's asserted property trust. Civil courts do have subject matter jurisdiction to resolve church property disputes. Of course, whether a denomination has a valid claim over a departing congregation's property is an entirely separate question from whether that congregation has a right in the first place to choose on its own whether to depart by disaffiliating. Certainly, one can envision circumstances under which the denomination might well have an enforceable claim under the law (rather than based solely on the Book of Order's unilateral assertion of a trust) against a particular property. But the PCUSA is discovering to its chagrin that state courts which provide an impartial forum and that use neutral principles of law to decide church property disputes are often ruling in favor of local churches when the property facts evidenced in the deeds, financing documents, articles of incorporation or other documents indicating local intent support unfettered local ownership. To conclude, if a Nazarene church wants to become a Baptist church, or a Methodist church wants to become a Lutheran church, or a Presbyterian church wants to become a different brand of Presbyterian church, they are all at liberty to do so in the United States without having to first obtain somebody else's permission. Such a view is not only the American view, it is the Presbyterian view. At least it is when the Book of Order is interpreted in a manner that is consistent with, and not contrary to, basic American Constitutional freedoms and the "Historic Principles of Church Order" on which the rest of the Book of Order is supposedly based. Lloyd Lunceford Baton Rouge, La. Why are Cutter and his team fighting to keep people in? June 13, 2008 I am confused how a group of voluntarily assembled people (Woodland) -- who voluntarily call a minister to meet their spiritual needs, who voluntarily join a specific denomination -- can be threatened and intimidated by the organization they voluntarily joined. Maybe the leadership of the presbytery has lost sight that they are to serve those who join them. Rev. Cutter's team should be thankful that they have fewer people to serve. I would think, if you keep people on your team who do not play like a team and who even dislike the team, than you are in for disunity and disharmony. I say if they do not want to be part of the team, let them go. The messier it gets, the more others do not want to play on a "bully's" team. Why are Cutter and his team fighting to keep people in, if they want to leave? Tom Webber PCUSA's interfaith office has engaged in a theological bait and switch scheme June 13, 2008 One of the few bright spots this spring to come out of the PCUSA was a statement on anti-Semitism produced by the Office of Interfaith Relations. That statement was well received by the Jewish community and was surprising for its honesty and willingness to admit mistakes. But it was too good to be true. In recent days the Office of Interfaith Relations under the leadership of Jay Rock has withdrawn the original statement and replaced it with a new statement which the Jewish community is bound to find offensive and a continuation of the historic anti-Israel and anti-Jewish bias of the PCUSA's leadership. It is incredibly embarrassing for our church to issue a statement, have it widely praised by the Jewish community, then go back and rewrite it in such a way as to offend the Jewish community. GA commissioners should not be fooled by statements from the Interfaith Office which suggest their current work is welcomed by the Jewish community. It is not. Mr. Rock and his new statement make us look like an unscrupulous used car salesmen who is constantly attempting to trick an unwary consumer into paying too much for a junked automobile. The Interfaith office has been engaged in a theological bait and switch scheme. No one should be fooled by it. Timothy Smith, pastor Sonoma Springs Presbyterian Church Las Cruces, N.M. A memorial fund for the missionary kids? June 13, 2008 It is indeed tragic even if only a fraction of a penny of my per capita giving might have been diverted to aid ruthless African mercenaries. Could the PLC publish the names and affiliations of the planeload of missionaries that Mugabe's men shot down? It would compound the tragedy to forget the names of such modern day martyrs of the faith. Perhaps the PLC would be interested in setting up a memorial fund in their names to offer college scholarships to Presbyterian missionary kids. I would be willing to match my entire per capita allotment every year in perpetuity to such a fund. Carl Hahn Inglewood, Calif. If 'neutral principles' cannot be applied, then venue falls within PCUSA June 13, 2008 If "neutral principles" meant that no two parties could be treated equally under the law unless, and only if, they were "equal" in "stature," "position," "influence," "hierarchy" or any other characteristic other than that of a party governed by and subject to the laws of this land -- equal or not -- then our society would be a lawless, anarchic mess. In fact, "neutral principles" means that a court must determine that the reasoning behind the court's finding in a case must be applicable to other general scenarios, and not limited only to the circumstances of the specific case at hand. If the court cannot determine that it can apply "neutral principles," then it has an obligation not to hear the case. And it is for this very reason that the denomination so dislikes the application of neutral principles … in claiming that "neutral principles" cannot be applied, the only venue for the deciding of these property cases is within the denomination. Charles K. Oliver Jr. Lack of repentance within many mainline churches is a scandal June 13, 2008 I read the article that was commended to us by Mary Ellen Lawson in her June 5 letter. I must say that as a young pastor, I am fascinated by the ability of the old guard in our denomination to continue in unrepentant excuse making for poor decisions from the past. The article does nothing to justify what was done in a rational or Biblical manner. And the claim that the author makes, that he was guided by the Holy Spirit, is just sad. I'll refute his article's "apology" for funding Angela Davis's defense with this analogy: Say I were to take $1,000 from the church's fellowship committee fund and go to the local beer barn to buy liquor for a party with some church friends. Then, upon being caught in an audit, I let my friends raise another $1,000 dollars to give back to the church. Does this act exonerate me or my actions? Of course not! I would be fired, sued or hopefully both. Not to mention that it would be doubly insulting to the church and our faith if I continued to refuse to admit where I had gone wrong in the act of misusing church funds for unholy purposes. But this looking to a past malfeasance does also yield another insight for us today. When will our denominational agencies admit that many past and present actions are a direct violation of our faith and constitution? The lack of any organizational repentance within many mainline denominations should be a scandal to us all. The fact that it is not is perhaps the saddest thing we inherit from our past and continue in today. Toby Brown First Presbyterian Church Cuero, Texas Another wall has been put in place to keep people in the PCUSA June 13, 2008 In 1961, the East German puppets of the USSR put up the Berlin Wall. They were losing too many of their citizens. Over the years, East Germans died trying to bolt across the wall in a desperate attempt to gain freedom. Who can forget President Kennedy's immortal "Ich bin ein Berliner"? (I'm told that he actually said "I am a jelly doughnut," but everybody got the point). Years later, towards the end of the Cold War, another president, Ronald Reagan said, "Mr. Gorbechev, tear this wall down!" As the PCUSA prepares for its General Assembly in San Jose, Calif., another Berlin Wall has been put into place, and for the same reason -- to keep unwilling people in. The wall is not physical, but is in the form of threatened or real litigation and other draconian measures. The saga of Woodland Presbyterian Church in Louisiana is one of the more dramatic recent examples. I wonder if the hierarchs of the PCUSA have noticed that the exodus is all one way. I am not aware of any non-PCUSA churches knocking on the door seeking admission. And whenever a congregational vote was taken to determine if dismissal should be requested, how many resulted in a majority voting to stay in? Shouldn't this tell them something? Larry Brown African Bible College Lilongwe, Malawi Why count abstentions as nay votes? June 13, 2008 In response to the article on the New Orleans church disaffiliating from the PCUSA: Why count abstentions as nay votes? The yeas had 96 percent of the 156 votes cast, not 93 percent. Bill Calderwood Sterling, Kan. What Paul wrote in 2 Timothy is being fulfilled today June 13, 2008 The battle rages on. The Presbyterian church that I joined more than 70 years ago is not the Presbyterian church that I am a member of today, though I have not moved my membership or moved from this community in that time. My Dad was an ordained minister, having graduated from McCormack Seminary of Chicago in 1922 and was a schoolmate of Louie Evans Sr. He served as pastor in four different pastorates and was stated clerk of Chippewa Presbytery, Wisc., and clerk of the Synod of Wisconsin until the time of his "home-going" in 1951 at the age of 53. He was instrumental in getting slot machines removed (temporarily) from the state of Wisconsin. I was ordained ruling elder in 1954, have served in the Sunday school program as superintendent and teacher for over 60 years. My wife was church secretary for 19 years. She and I joined the Gideons International Association in 1970 and have held various offices in state and local organizations. And we have been involved in the county jail ministry via the Gideons. We raised four children, three boys and one girl. Our oldest went "on ahead" at the age of 57 years. The two boys are very much involved in the music programs of their respective churches (not Presbyterian). In 2007, my dear wife of 61 plus years went to be with the Lord. For her the battle is over. But here on Earth it still rages on -- Eph. 6:10. I have difficulty understanding how people who claim to have read and studied the Bible can be so "thick-headed" about what it says! I guess what Paul wrote to Timothy -- 2 Timothy 3:1 to 4:5 is being fulfilled today. We can stand in the confidence of Romans chapter 8. Herb Henderson Baldwin, Wisc. Presbytery is a permission-giver to the congregation and not a dictator June 12, 2008 In considering Tom Armstrong's letter to the editor of June 11 that congregations and presbyteries are not equal parties, I would suggest he got it right and wrong at the same time. Initially it should be noted that presbyteries were created to assist the local congregations in their mission for the Kingdom. How many times have people in the pews been told, "We're here to help you?" Now that's not always the case, but it is the right idea. In saying, "Presbyteries create congregations ... (etc.)" it is true that a presbytery can "create" a congregation. But a group of individuals can also gather together for some time, decide they would like to form a church, and then with a presbytery's permission, join the PCUSA as a participating congregation. But it could also be true that a congregation in another (probably Reformed) denomination could ask to transfer into the PCUSA. It must always be emphasized that presbytery is a permission-giver to the congregation and not a dictator. Generally there is very little evangelism in the community, very little face-to-face with non-Christians, very little actual hand-to-hand helping of people in need, and very little worship for the thousands of "members" of a presbytery on a weekly (Sabbath) frequency. The local congregation is the feet on the street and the place where ministry is happening, not the presbytery! Which leads to the idea of "being under the authority" of a presbytery. This can easily become a hierarchical thing, as PCUSA court briefs have recently tried to design. The authority that Presbyterians have historically and usually considered proper is more of a mutual responsibility or voluntary submission, again, rather than a hierarchy or dictatorial system. Which brings out the point that messes with all Mr. Armstrong said, namely that we are all in a voluntary relationship, especially in this country. We are voluntary members of a local church. Local churches are in a voluntary relationship with their presbyteries. The Book of Order reads very clearly that the presbytery can dismiss churches. It does not, however, say how they should dismiss a church. I would no more twist the arm of a parishioner to remain on our active member roll than I would demand a tithe from their income or will. I teach and preach tithing, but it would be entirely inappropriate to demand that kind of response. It is also very inappropriate for presbyteries to covet the property, assets or building of a local church, especially if it was established entirely by that congregation, or if they have met all the financial obligations to the presbytery. A presbytery can simply seek whether a congregation is being called to another denomination, especially due to conscience, and if they determine they are, the presbytery can be of great assistance in helping that congregation make a smooth and encouraging transition to that new denomination. I know it is possible because it happened to us in Muskingum Valley Presbytery. Our presbytery was interested in our call as a congregation, in our ongoing ministry in our location, and in doing what was right in God's eyes concerning fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. If presbyteries and congregations become absolutely equal, then it's time to consider putting both synods and presbyteries out of business, so that the local church can do what neither of those bodies can – getting on with the nitty-gritty work of Christ! Pastor Tom Sawyer Middle Sandy EPC Homeworth, Ohio Members can dismiss themselves June 12, 2008 Tom Armstrong (letter to the editor, posted June 11, 2008) responded to your open letter claiming congregations have no right to dismiss themselves from a presbytery. In the rationale for his position, he says, "No PCUSA congregation can create itself, nor is a congregation granted the option to dissolve itself. Congregations are always under the authority of a presbytery, in the same way a member is always under the authority of a session or a pastor is always under the authority of a presbytery." It occurred to me that members always have the privilege of dismissing him or herself to another congregation, with or without the approval of the session they are under. Members have to apply to be admitted, but moving elsewhere does not have to be granted. Rev. Steven L. Seng First Presbyterian Church Wellsburg, W.Va. Woodland is making a statement of faith and courage June 11, 2008 Once again the PCUSA has proved to be a bully in the way it treats those congregations which choose to escape its clutches. Why would it want to force a congregation to stay in the denomination when it has evidenced a desire to move on? I can only surmise that the leadership has the justified fear that if it doesn't hold on to as many disaffected congregations as it can, that it will soon be turning out the lights for the last time! Woodland has a bully pulpit at this time. It is making a statement of faith and a statement of courage. I am a member of Woodland, and I can assure you that we will hang tough. If Christ is with us, who can stand against us? Rick Ellis Article reflects the increasing desperation of PCUSA leaders June 11, 2008 Thanks for reporting this incredible story. This episode reflects the increasing desperation of the leaders of the PCUSA as the denomination continues to crumble. These tactics won't work because it is the PCUSA theology and morality that is at fault. Sadly, no attempt is being made to fix that. The story left out some important points. Was the congregational meeting actually held? If so, was a vote taken? If the vote was taken, what was the outcome of the vote? (Answers can be found in follow-up article "New Orleans church disaffiliates from PCUSA" posted 6/10/08. – ed) George Hill Port Allen, La. Pastor has led congregation in compassionate, honest way June 11, 2008 As a colleague, friend and partner in community ministry with the Rev. Jason Bantz, I feel compelled to comment. I have seen Jason lead his congregation in a loving, compassionate and completely honest way as they have struggled through this situation. I have nothing but respect for his pastoring skills and for his leadership through this difficult time. I thank God for his friendship. I pray for Jason and his family, for his church and for his passionate and faithful leadership. Rev. Mick Miller College Corner United Methodist Church A congregation and a presbytery are not equal parties June 11, 2008 You say in your open letter that the concept of "neutral principles" should prevail in matters concerning church property. As I understand the "neutral principles" idea, a court basically says, "We have two equal parties, both claiming to own one piece of property. Which party has the better claim to that property?" When two equal parties are involved, "neutral principles" is probably a good way to find a solution. But I believe that a congregation and a presbytery are not equal parties. Every congregation in the PCUSA was created by a vote of some presbytery at some point in time. No PCUSA congregation can create itself, nor is a congregation granted the option to dissolve itself. Congregations are always under the authority of a presbytery, in the same way a member is always under the authority of a session or a pastor is always under the authority of a presbytery. Presbyteries create congregations, merge or divide congregations, dissolve congregations and dismiss congregations, etc. It is up to a presbytery to request that a congregation be transferred to another presbytery, and only the General Assembly can grant such a request. These are not decisions for congregations to make on their own. Congregations are not equal parties to presbyteries. The fact that some states do decide property cases on "neutral principles" only means that some civil court judges are willing to disassemble churches such as the Episcopal Church or the Presbyterian Church (USA). Tom Armstrong Do any churches regret leaving the PCUSA? June 11, 2008 Fellow Presbyterian pastors (of various denominational persuasions), We at Mt. Vernon Community Presbyterian Church outside of Pittsburgh, Pa., are in the process of discernment regarding our future in the PCUSA. A question came up at our session meeting last night: "Are there any churches that have left the PCUSA for other denominations who now wish they had not?" No doubt legal and ecclesiastical hassles are part of this equation, but I don't think that was the intent of the question. Mostly, are there any churches that have left who have changed their minds and think they made a mistake? Unfortunately, I am guessing the churches that have left pay less attention to this Web site these days, but if anyone has any information on this it would be greatly appreciated. Bill Little Mt. Vernon Community Presbyterian Church McKeesport, Pa. Keeping the peace? June 5, 2008 It has been a long time since I have seen as cogent an expose of the anti-Semitic bias, not only of the public media, but of our PCUSA Church, than the article by Herb Denenberg, "Mideast policy: Peacemaking or anti-Semitism? (GA 2008 issue of The Layman – ed.). It seems to be the party line of the left to defend the non-existence of Israel. I wonder what the media and the PCUSA would say were we as a nation at risk of a 9/11 every day, with bombs raining down on us. Let us at least give Israel the human right to exist as a people, and the right of self defense. Surely we who respect Scripture should exercise caution in arraying ourselves against a people of whom it is said, "I will bless them who bless you and curse those who curse you." Wally Drotts Citrus Heights, Calif. Davis omission June 5, 2008 I think it would be very helpful for Larry Brown to read Gayraud S. Wilmore's article "Recollections: the Black Revolt and the United Presbyterian Church, 1963-1973" (from Perspectives, October 2007 – ed.) before throwing around allegations about the support of the church for the Angela Davis trial. The fact that the money was repaid to the church by 20 African American pastors is never, never mentioned. That is an intended omission that has gone on for years, and it is time to tell the whole story, not just the part that creates division. Mary Ellen Lawson Mount Pleasant, Pa. PCUSA is trying to grab up church property to be rich June 5, 2008 In response to Jack Vanderbleek, [letter to the editor, posted June 4, 2008] the PCUSA has definitely changed ever since the PCUS and the Northern Church moved together. Now the PCUSA is trying to grab up church property to be rich, and does not care about the people. It has also become liberal on many issues like the homosexual issue. I am trying to find a church that is traditional orthodox Presbyterian in my area. And it looks like a PCA church. They have their troubles too, but not as many as the PCUSA has. Charles Freeman Thanks for Spahr June 4, 2008 I want to thank you for your interview of Janie Spahr. Anyone who has met Janie, no matter how much they might disagree with her, has always known exactly where Janie stood. I liked your title's suggestion that Janie might "rally gays" at GA. She very well might, but it won't be the first time. Janie has been a powerful voice to those who have been denied their own voice and standing in this church for decades, so much so that if she were on the opposite side of the fence, you might very well be declaring her a prophet of your own. As an openly gay man who is also a Minister of the Word and Sacrament and the co-officiator at the recent wedding Janie spoke of in New York, I have a deep and abiding gratitude for this woman. I admire her for the dedication and tirelessness in which she has worked within the church for justice, welcome and change – endlessly faithful to her call. I respect her for the way she trusts in God as she follows God's mission for her. She is a leader, friend, pastor – and yes, prophet. It is thrilling to see so many same gender couples coming forward and seeking marriage that is now legally available in California, as well as demanded by faithfulness to our calls as ministers. God is doing a new thing in this church and it is not destructive, although it is challenging for many. I have always said that being a Christian involves risk, and the risk now is to trust in God and believe. Whatever our differences, God calls us to work together. To work together without the barriers which exclude the LGBT community in the full work and worship of the PCUSA. There are so many of us who are ready to work with all the groups in this church, and, yes, in that way we are gay activists. We are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, questioning and actively seeking a church that moves beyond our differences and then moves out together into a broken world to heal – leaving God to be the judge. I pray that at this General Assembly we are rallied to the wildly inclusive love of God to which a long-time friend, the Rev. Howard Warren, called us many years ago. And we invite you to join us. It is time not to separate but to come together in the grace God has given us to share, in the one baptism that knows each of our names. Rev. Ray Bagnuolo Interim Minister Palisades Presbyterian Church Palisades, N.Y. What has happened to the PCUSA? June 4, 2008 Ordination of homosexual church officers – same sex weddings – gay rallies at the 218th GA – abortion on demand – seizure and confiscation of church property – anti-Semitism towards Israel – abolishment of ordination standards – redefining marriage – antimilitary programs – misguided peace efforts – a failed missionary program – abandonment of the Word of God – a Form of Government report which diminishes the authority of Scripture – financial support of socialist/communist oriented organizations – changing donor restricted funds – association with terrorists who want to destroy Israel – surrendering to terrorists – approval of the "GOD ____ AMERICA" sermon – the loss of several churches and nearly 100,000 church members in the last year – a membership loss like the PCUSA has never known. Does this read like a denomination faithful to the Word of God and the teachings of Jesus Christ? No! Is this the aura surrounding the 218th General Assembly? Yes! Will the 218th GA make any efforts toward renewal? No! Will church leaders and commissioners approve overtures which continue a tragic loss in membership? Yes! Will the tenure of the stated clerk be praised and idolized? Yes! Will the Louisville staffers elect a like-minded replacement? Yes! Why can't the Covenant churches, the More Light churches, That All May Freely Serve, the LGBT advocates, and those worshippers of sexual perversion, start their own denomination rather than destroying the PCUSA? Theological diversity, moral depravity, and political activism have become the hallmarks of this once great institution borne out of the Reformed tradition. The church I joined 40 years ago no longer exists. Jack Vanderbleek, elder Northeast Presbyterian Church St. Petersburg, Fla. Wall of separation June 4, 2008 Having served on the (Presbyterian) Foundation Board for a number of years, it is my strong believe that the marketing arm of the Foundation will go out of business if the GAC takes over the investment management and the distribution now held by the Foundation. There should always be a wall between the Foundation and the GAC. It appears that this proposal is a ploy for the GAC to get access for additional funds to shore up their finances. Ben Vernon Denver, N.C. (Mr. Vernon is a former board member of the Presbyterian Lay Committee – Ed.) Patriotism or treason? June 4, 2008 I read the article from the Tucson paper with amusement and sorrow. This is what passes for breaking news in the Southwest I suppose. Ricky manages to finagle yet another boondoggle at the expense of the denomination. I think it is a little sad that we fete someone with so little appreciation for the rule of law and with no discernable theological or ethical base. That Ufford-Chase continues to slop at the denominational trough is one more example of the progressive bias in Louisville. Frankly, his behavior over the past several years has done nothing to validate any supposed fealty to peace – let alone unity or purity. I invite you to recall his participation in the aggressive disruption of worship at the Korean congregation in California while serving as moderator. Or perhaps you were unaware of his perverse perspective of patriotism. He displayed that when addressing the Council of Military Chaplains on the day he was elected moderator. In that event, he boasted of standing outside a U.S. embassy, on foreign soil, protesting our government on the day American forces were advancing into harm's way. In the perverse little universe of "Ricky World," this somehow is patriotic. Really? In a sane cultural perspective it would be called what it was – treason. As long as Mr. Ufford-Chase has any connection to the peace and justice ministries of this denomination, my support will go elsewhere – as will the support of every entity I can influence. Rev. James Yearsley Tampa, Fla. Remember Angela Davis? June 4, 2008 In recent editorials, editor emeritus Parker Williamson has traced the relationship between the PCUSA and murderous African dictator Robert Mugabe, through its membership in the World Council of Churches. Unfortunately, there's more. Anybody remember Angela Davis? She was a Communist activist who was implicated in the death of Judge Harold Haley back in the early 70s. She was the third woman in history to be placed on the FBI's Most Wanted list. She was captured and put on trial. It's been many years now, but I seem to recall that the United Presbyterian Church USA participated in an Angela Davis defense fund [A story that The Layman broke and covered - ed.], and she was acquitted. Later she ran for vice-president of the US on the Communist ticket with Gus Hall. She was enthusiastically welcomed in Castro's Cuba, and collaborated with Jim Jones' Peoples Temple – before the mass suicide in Guyana in 1978. She has "come out" as a lesbian. In recent years she has broken away from the Communist Party USA and has founded "Committees of Correspondence for Democracy and Socialism." Today she is professor of "History of Consciousness" at the University of California. The beginning of the numerical decline of the Presbyterians, the Confession of 1967 ("The Scriptures ... are nevertheless the words of men"), the Angela Davis episode, and Mugabe's "war of liberation" all happened in roughly the same period – the 60s and 70s. Today, various presbyteries and synods of the PCUSA are busily setting up "administrative commissions" empowered to dismiss pastors, dissolve sessions, and confiscate properties of potentially dissident churches. There is interest in redirecting designated gifts. Perhaps this is what one might expect from an organization that is comfortable with association with prominent Marxist personalities. Larry Brown