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| April
2008 letters Archives of letters to the editor  |
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| Tragedy
of blessing same-sex couples April 30, 2008 I, for one, welcome the ruling from the GAJC regarding Jane Spahr. It serves as a clear reminder that theological ambiguity is no foundation for the Christian life. In truth, the 2000 decision to "bless" same sex couples is a tragedy, and contrary to Scripture. It should never have passed. Jane Spahr has shown us that like Bill Clinton, "is" can be what you desire it to be. The human dilemma of seeking to serve the Lord on our own terms continues. Is Jane Spahr just another woman (person) at the well, "... you worship what you do not know?" Truly fascinating. Jerry Voss Millbrook Fresno Welcome to Wonderland April 30, 2008 Wow, what a shocker. The GAPJC found a way to obviate clear church teaching and standards – yet again. Quoting the Spahr article: "Jane Spahr testified at three levels of church court that she had conducted 'marriage' ceremonies for two lesbian couples. But the highest court in the Presbyterian Church (USA) ruled that Spahr had done no such thing." Funny, but as I understand it, in a case before the courts involving illegal activities, one of the bedrock issues to be established (along with opportunity and capability) is intent. Is there doubt in any one's mind what Ms Spahr's intent was? Clearly, it was to perform marriage ceremonies for these two couples. Not so, says the GAPJC. There is no such thing according to our constitution so she couldn't have done it. Really? Perhaps we should ask the four participants what they think: It is clear what Ms Spahr thought. Welcome to wonderland. I think it can only help us to bear this nonsense if we adopt the philosophy of "like Alice, I try to believe three impossible things before breakfast." Don't worry; it's just another little slide on the slope. Rev. Jim Yearsley Tampa, Fla. Witness Via Vandalism? April 30, 2008 The recent incident of vandalism at Moorpark Presbyterian Church is surely horrifying. It underscores the blatant disregard for the intrinsic and instrumental sanctity of traditional Christian institutions and soteriology at large. The brigands responsible should undoubtedly be prosecuted. What's even more frightening is that, if caught, these miscreants need only appeal to the General Assembly's Permanent Judicial Commission. Upon arrival, they need only refer to their foul deed as "alternative decorating" or some other "politically correct" label. They can submit their actions cannot be characterized as vandalism, because to do so would abridge their right to self-expression guided by conscience, which has been emphasized in PCUSA thinking for the past several decades. They can say that what they wrote on the walls of the church, misspellings and all, is a reflection of the religious and spiritual diversity upon which the PCUSA has come to pride itself. And since there is nothing in the PCUSA constitution that explicitly condemns pentagrams spray-painted on church walls, the charges are without merit, anyway. At which point, they can be assured of full vindication-possibly even a lucrative offer to moderate a nationwide lecture series from the Re imagining God or More Light movements! Who knows? This could lead to a new progressive trend in PCUSA thinking and "witness for Christ" that will more than likely also enjoy an unqualified imprimatur from Clifton Kirkpatrick and/or his successors, as virtually all other types of vandalism have. Lord knows it would not be the first time this tactic has worked! Am I right or am I wrong? Eric Wells Boardman, Ohio Typo or Twist? April 29, 2008 (Regarding a quote attributed to Sherill Figuera, who was among the same-sex couples 'wed' by Rev. Jane Adams Spahr – ed.) Maybe I'm picky, but it seems to me that if one is going to quote the Bible about speaking truth, one might at least get the quote from probably the most recognized Bible verse correct. All dozen versions I looked at for John 3:16 say "For God so loved the world..." or something very similar, not "For God to love the world". The second implies there is something the world must do in order to gain God's love. The first tells us how much he really does love us. At first, I thought maybe it was a typo, but when I look at the keyboard, I doubt that is the case. Just makes me wonder... Evan Dowdy Brighton, Colo. The meaning of mission April 29, 2008 The recent article about the number of GA staff people being assigned to the General Assembly meeting included the link to the list presented to the GAC. What I find to be sadly descriptive of the state in which the PCUSA finds itself comes under the heading of "Mission." Of the 344 people assigned to GA, more than half (199) are in the area of Mission (that's good!). But the breakdown of those 199 tells another story that's not so good. Fifty-one (51) of those are with Racial Ethnic & Women's Ministries, 50 are with World Mission, 35 with Compassion, Peace and Justice, 29 with Theology Worship and Education, and only 18 with Evangelism and Church Growth. The picture gets worse when looking at those who are actually assigned to committee work: Forty-one (41) for Racial Ethnic and Women's Ministries, 16 each for World Mission and Compassion, Peace and Justice, 10 for Theology Worship and Education, and only 2 (that's right – two!) with Evangelism and Church Growth. How can we take seriously words from denominational headquarters about the importance of Evangelism and Church Growth when the number of staff people in that area who will attend GA and resource committees is only a fraction of other areas of "mission?" Inquiring minds want to know…. Rev. Harper Brady Concord Presbyterian Church Baden, Pa. GA staff questioned April 29, 2008 How much does it cost to send 344 people to California for a week? How many of these people will engage in partisan politics to promote the views of the GAC? Jack Vanderbleek Elder, Northeast Presbyterian Church St.Petersburg, Florida Terminal illness? April 29, 2008 Broken Covenant: Signs of a Shattered Communion (Reformation Press) documents the defilement of the PC (USA) and its headlong descent into apostasy and its cultural accommodation since 1926. Earlier Rev. J. Gresham Machen foretold the cancer's consequences in his book Christianity and Liberalism published in 1923. A Presbyterian educator and theologian, Rev. Machen ultimately was drummed out of the corps for daring to tell the truth. And four centuries earlier John Calvin also anticipated the established churches' decadence in his Institutes of Christian Religion first published in Latin in 1536. Calvin said, "It is therefore an audacity, closely allied to a sacrilege, rashly to turn Scripture in any way we please, and to indulge our fancies as in sport; which has been done by many in former times." (English Translation, Grand Rapids, 1947, p. xxvii) (emphasis added). And, "It is one of the characteristics of the divine word, that whenever it appears, Satan ceases to slumber and sleep. This is the surest and most unerring test for distinguishing it from false doctrines which readily betray themselves, while they are received by all with willing ears, and welcomed by an applauding world." (Ed. 1536) (Cited on p. 15 of Henry Beveridge's translation of the Institutes, 1989, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids) Art Montgomery Elder (inactive) Santa Barbara, Calif. 'Mainline' denominations, cultural dinosaurs April 28, 2008 As I survey the landscape of the Presbyterian Church (USA), I am convinced that ours is a dying denomination. We have strayed far from the authority of Holy Scripture and the centrality of Jesus Christ. The signs of our demise are everywhere. For example, the PCUSA continues to decline by tens of thousands of members every year; sadly, such has been the case for decades (yes, decades). In the 1960s, mainline churches accounted for about 40 percent of all American Protestants. Today, the number is closer to 12 percent, and shrinking fast. Further evidence of the final gasps of a dying entity can be seen in the draconian tactics our leaders employ to stop conservative churches from exiting the denomination. What is more, we mainliners (more appropriately "sideliners") embrace a governing structure that is locked in a 1950s time warp. I think here of American car manufacturers with their overpaid executives, plethora of middle-level managers and outdated manufacturing structures. The parallels to mainline/sideline Protestantism are striking. Just like many corporate officials, 21st-century denominational bureaucrats are out of touch with their constituents and the times in which we live. Unwilling to respond to their "market audience" (grassroots Presbyterians), mainline institutionalists are also unwilling to exchange outdated "business" practices for more streamlined and effective ones. Our rule book, the Book of Order, grows more and more bloated and is cited and discussed ad nauseum at our presbytery, synod and General Assembly "business" meetings. Scripture is largely ignored and pressing issues such as evangelism, church growth, moral and spiritual revival, etc., are rarely addressed. While conservative, Bible-believing churches continue to grow, the membership of mainline Protestantism continues to shrink. Amazingly, the number of ministers – at least in the liberal PCUSA – is increasing. Unless the Lord intervenes from on high, mainline Protestantism will continue to wither away … or sink deeper into the sea of irrelevancy … or go the way of dinosaurs … or, well, you pick your metaphor. As long as mainline Protestantism steers its present course, with spiritual pirates at the helm, I am pessimistic about its survival. I am, however, extremely optimistic about the Body of Christ, and regularly remind myself of Jesus' words that the gates of Hades will not overcome His Church. Mainline denominations will come and go, but the Body of Christ will endure. Rev. Scott Luckey New Orleans, La. GAC sending staff to G.A. as 'advisors' April 28, 2008 I was amused to hear your report about the General Assembly Council sending staff "advisors" to certain committees at this upcoming General Assembly. I can imagine the quality of their advice on crucial issues of the faith – "Has God said...?" Toby Brown Ecclesiastes and the Washington Office April 28, 2008 Now and again, it is interesting to take something completely out of context and see where it leads. Consider: Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV): "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." Is there a message for our Washington Office here? John Cowan Cartersville, Ga. A response to the letter by Jim Yearsley April 28, 2008 The Rev. Jim Yearsley notes in his latest letter [Letters, April 23, 2008]: "This is especially troublesome when you recognize that the majority (65 percent plus/minus three percent) of the rank and file membership of the Presbyterian Church (USA) is clearly evangelical and conservative. That stands in exact opposition to the PCUSA clergy self-identification as liberal progressives. For this information, refer to the denomination's own statistical studies." Okay, I did look at the statistics on the PCUSA Web site regarding a 2005 study. Guess what? More pastors believe in the after life than do the members of congregations – 86 percent of the members believe this as of 2005, whereas 95 percent of pastors do. While this is not a large difference, I still found it interesting that more pastors who effectively play a large role in ruling the PCUSA believe in life after death than the members they serve. Regarding the Bible, 18 percent of the members believe it to be the literal word of God, compared to five percent of the pastors. The rest believe that it is to be interpreted to some degree or another. This raises the interesting question of what it is to be a conservative in light of how the Bible is taken? Are those that take it literally without question the conservatives? If so, then 65 percent of the PCUSA is not conservative, as Mr. Yearsley would like to believe. If not, then the majority of the PCUSA is conservative, but then so are the pastors and leadership that rule it. 32 percent of members believe that all religions are equally true, whereas only seven percent of pastors agree. Okay, so let's get real here. What does being liberal really mean in the debate? Why are pastors who make up the leadership of the PCUSA being often portrayed as the bad guys and the members of the congregation as simply blind followers? It's absolutely ridiculous to make such a claim. I like to think of this situation more as a church dinner or get together. We all like to aspire to the idea of getting along, which is really a great idea and more in line with what Christ demonstrated. The problem gets to be when some crazy person, or seems to be crazy, brings a strange dish that doesn't seem to fit in or is to most people's taste. What happens is the community of faith lets the person be part of the community without question and lets faith be the rule that the person needs to be loved and accepted. Somehow, I expect without intimately knowing that some of the other groups Mr. Yearsley struggles with are trying to do the same within the PCUSA. Jesus did so likewise. Earl C. Apel deacon Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church Cincinnati, Ohio The marks of the true Church April 25, 2008 Earl C. Apel [Letters, April 24, 2008] asks what are the other two marks of a true church? The Protestant Reformers gave these two marks to be: "Where the Gospel is properly preached and where the sacraments are properly administered." I would also refer him to the Westminster Confession Of Faith, Chapter 25 Article 4:
Charlotte, N.C. No common frame of reference April 25, 2008 It is difficult to carry on an effective correspondence when there is no common frame of reference. I fear that is the case with Deacon Apel [Letters, April 24, 2008] and so many of us with whom he seems to "have issues." In the Reformed tradition, we have a systematic theology. It includes many sources of understanding our faith. Primary among them is Scripture, God's inerrant Word. Subordinate to Scripture we have the Confessions – you may recognize them as Part I of the Constitution of the Presbyterian Church (USA) and the Book of Order – Part II. I cannot recommend strongly enough that you – especially as an ordained officer in the church - should have and study all three of these. Allow me to help you with your confusion about the marks of the true church. From the Scots Confession (Chapter XVIII), they are:
Uh, not exactly. In fact, in addition to the specific directives of the Book of Order, over the years, the General Assembly has on numerous occasions issued authoritative interpretations and guidance. These are regulatory in nature and have the force of the constitution behind them. This is hardly smoke and mirrors. Rev. Jim Yearsley Tampa, Fla. More on the marks of the true Church April 25, 2008 Earl Apel [Letters, April 24, 2008] asks what are the first two marks of the true Church. They are found in the Scots Confession, 3.18, thus:
Rev. Steven L. Seng First Presbyterian Church Wellsburg, W.V. Jane Spahr: Principle? Conscience? April 24, 2008 Jane Spahr is but another in a seeming limitless reservoir of those within our denomination who purposefully blur the ethical lines for vulgar, cosmopolitan interests. In so doing, they act on the false notion that principle is an instrument of man, rather than the contrivance of an all-powerful and ever-living God. Being foreordained to any position of de facto or titular leadership in the fellowship of believers requires both an inclination and preparedness to provide Scriptural warrant – not only for your own perspectives, but the Westminster and Dordrecht considerations as well. Any abridgment of this preliminary and incumbent requisite is tantamount to apostasy plain and simple! Is ecclesiastical brigandage of this sort a by-product of rationalistic textual criticism? Or does it come from the wholesale abandonment of classical apologetics that is encouraged by the pluralistic tendencies that have been regrettably consecrated over the last several decades in our nation? In 1809, a Presbyterian elder named Hugh Wylie, who was the postmaster in Washington, Pennsylvania, was excommunicated for sorting mail on the Sabbath. If unrepentant demagogues like Spahr and Janet Edwards are not sanctioned severely, than Wylie richly deserves a huge posthumous apology and the Presbyterianism in this hemisphere will continue to cascade precipitously into the abyss of irrelevance and decrepitude. Eric Wells Boardman, Ohio What is sin? April 24, 2008 When is sin not a sin? For a Presbyterian in the PCUSA, it's when it's a scruple. Art Montgomery elder (retired) Santa Barbara, Calif. A reply to the letter by Jim Yearsley April 24, 2008 The Rev. Jim Yearsley [Letters, April 18, 2008] makes some good comments about the apparent wishy-washy attitude in the Presbyterian Church (USA) about so-called unrepentant LGBT persons. I couldn't agree more. One statement I found interesting: "The truth is that this denomination speaks out of both sides of its mouth and has completely forgotten or ignored the third mark of the true Church – discipline." I will certainly agree with the observation that the PCUSA seems to be speaking out of both sides of the mouth. I'm just curious about what are the first and second marks of the true Church? I missed that, unless it is implied somewhere. In fact, I never thought of discipline as being a mark of the true Church but, rather, the Trinity, God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. It seems simple and straightforward to me that the concept of the Trinity keeps one on the right path and, thus, is what is relevant. It seems to me these days so many ignore the Trinity and focus on one specific idol. This applies to liberals and conservatives, as well as those in the middle. This includes the worship of the Bible, the Constitution, a church building, a certain cause, etc. The nice thing about the Trinity is we don't just worship something confined in human terms. Rather, it is expanded and forces us to even be uncomfortable at times. We don't just worship God who created us, but we also include Jesus who was indeed human and walked among us, and also include the Holy Spirit that moves within us and indeed makes us fully alive rather than among the walking dead. It is the Trinity, I think, that is at work among many in the PCUSA. Certainly, everything is not going to be perfect or correct. We could have just had the Dynamic Duo – that being God and Christ – and ended it there. Maybe that would have made things much simpler. But through the Holy Spirit, that lives and breathes in each of us as Christians, there is certainly a huge difference! Faith is definitely not easy. Back to the debate, the answer is quite simple. The PCUSA, in fact, does not go to the point of explicitly stating that unrepentant LGBT persons (whatever unrepentant means in their case) cannot be active members of a church or even serve in several capacities that include leadership in non-ordained positions. So, the PCUSA obviously believes (conservatives, middle and liberal) that these so-called unrepentant sinners can indeed freely support the church financially with their gifts, support the church in ministry through serving in Christian education and heading committees, lead the church in worship as liturgist or musician, speak to the church as a guest speaker, etc. The real nitty-gritty comes down to who can be ordained as a deacon, elder or minister. The fuss about this implies that only the ordained make a difference or really matter. But anyone who is part of any church in any denomination knows better. I expect that is why the PCUSA Book of Order is even wishy-washy on the subject. Read through it and you will find no explicit prohibition about LGBT persons in the first place. Rather, it is veiled regarding ordination and one could say that is smoke and mirrors in practice. And note that this was adopted by conservatives as well as others. So, sometimes it does help to look into the mirror as long as the smoke hasn't covered it too much. I am also an unrepentant sinner, knowing that I will always sin until the end of my life and it is impossible to claim that I will have repented of every sin committed until my dying day. The Bible makes this clear that we will all sin until our dying day and for anyone to claim to be so perfect and always in repentance is simply a lie and in conflict with what Jesus taught us. Earl C. Apel deacon Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church Cincinnati, Ohio 'Crying out in the wilderness' April 23, 2008 Amen, and welcome to the party John Kerr [Letters, April 22, 2008]. Ever since Indianapolis and the strategy session among CCM pastors and elders (which I believe was the genesis of the NWAC), a small, vocal and aggressively ignored voice has been crying out in the wilderness. Paul Roberts (midwife of the CCM), Rus Howard, Bob Kopp, Bob Davis, I and a few others have been begging the coalition of renewal organizations to wake up and smell the coffee. We renewed that call in Richmond and again in Birmingham. We were dismissed out of hand. Not by the progressives, but by our alleged allies in the evangelical camp. The adversaries (progressive liberal church deconstructionists) have a much better record of overlooking individual special interests in order to move their overall agenda forward. This is especially troublesome when you recognize that the majority (65 percent plus/minus three percent) of the rank and file membership of the Presbyterian Church (USA) is clearly evangelical and conservative. That stands in exact opposition to the PCUSA clergy self-identification as liberal progressives. For this information, refer to the denomination's own statistical studies. What is killing us is the unwillingness among the myriad renewalist organizations to set aside minor philosophical differences in order to combat the disease of liberalism in the church. Machen was a genius. Please read his book Liberalism and Christianity. Written over 70 years ago, it is as relevant today as it ever was. The sad reality is that, once again this year, the liberal progressives will control the agenda in San Jose. The will of the larger church will be ignored – or worse, railroaded further into irrelevance. Why? Well, judging by our track record, we will fail to coalesce into a common voice on any of the issues of importance. If you think I am wrong, think back to the last stated clerk election. We had three superb evangelical candidates stand for stated clerk against the entrenched incumbent. Not one renewalist leader or organization had the chutzpah to endorse any of the three. Had they done so, the other two would almost certainly have thrown their support to that person and we would have made a real difference. Also, we have been weakened because many of our best and brightest proponents of traditional Reformed faith and practice have had to leave this denomination to protect their witness. Those of us who have chosen to stay to be faithful have that much harder a job ahead. We cannot prevail unless all of the professional renewalists become more interested in the bigger picture and less concerned about protecting their individual fiefdoms. So, Rev. Kerr, welcome. You're entirely right. But. … Rev. Jim Yearsley Tampa, Fla. 'Beware of False Prophets' – Amen! April 22, 2008 Yes, we have been turning our corporate backs on the revealed Word of God at every turn, spurred on by so-called "progressive" theologians and Bible scholars who seek to make the Word of God say what it does not say and do what it does not do. If one reads the news coming out of the Episcopal Church, it is easy to see that the "progressives" there are following the same strategy as they are in our ranks: Get your way at any and all costs, and let the rules be damned. There is no sense of covenant or of adhering to any rules because the ends justify (in their minds) any means necessary. You can't get it through the presbyteries? Pass a new authoritative interpretation. Forget the constitutional processes – that only works for people who have "evolved" to their level. (Yes, that's the way they think. Remember Susan Andrews and her remarks concerning the Presbyterians in East Africa?) We are dealing with the very arrogant people that Paul described in II Timothy 3. We can't say that we weren't warned. But I would point out one mote in our eyes: Whenever conservative, orthodox Presbyterians are faced with all of this arrogance and apostasy, we just shrug our shoulders, return to our ministries and we have left the microphone open to the "progressives." When we get together, finally, to oppose this movement that has the form of godliness while denying its power, we are unable to agree on a common course of action. We splinter into factions. If you get 12 evangelical people together to discuss the problem, you get 14 opinions on what to do about it accompanied by the "Ain't It Awful Blues." In short, we have contributed to the problem we abhor. So, my question is, how do we take action to turn the Presbyterian Church (USA) around? How do we unite? If we do not, then we have few options: We can leave for another denomination, we can just stop attending and sit at home, or we can put up with the excesses of whatever is left of the PCUSA. It seems to me that we had best get our egos under control and seek the will of our Lord – and soon. Rev. John R. Kerr Jacksonville, N.C. 'Before the roof falls, let's remember we are still inside' April 22, 2008 As almost everyone in our denomination, I have been following the developments preceding our General Assembly. I found myself contrary to the majority of the currents that are pushing for change in our church – the transformation of the church into a social agency, the sexual behavior issues that contradict the Bible and people play blind, and many others. Our local church has suffered a lot because of the looseness/doubt of our doctrine and message, shown by the national church, to the a point of new members being confronted by other Christians who consider Presbyterians to be false Christians and have called our church a gay church. It is sad, very sad, but also it is very sad to hear or read brothers who pronounce in ways that give us the impression that everyone who is a member of the denomination is in accordance, therefore an accomplice of the acts of those who are responsible for the governance of the national church. What I would suggest is that we control the rhetoric and be more specific on our letters. Also that we pray and remember to ask our sessions to inform the members of their churches about the General Assembly, and from the pulpit ask them for their prayers. Joao Soares Newark, N.J. The PCUSA is the 'church of unrepentant sinners' April 21, 2008 The PCUSA has earned the title of "Presbyterian Church of Unrepentant Sinners in America" led by Covenant churches, More Light churches, GLBT advocates, the PUP authors, the stated clerk and his minions in Louisville. Followers and believers in the Word of God are forsaking this denomination and leaving it in droves. Some churches that would like to leave are intimidated and persecuted by "The Louisville Papers." Lawsuits are used to make believers stay with sinners. The Bible is no longer the authoritative Word of God. It is a cafeteria from which sinners pick and choose what they will obey according to their selfish, self-serving desires, not according to the will of God. The sinners have bought into an interpretation of sexual behavior that violates the mandates found in Scripture. The sinners have conducted a a spiritual war of words that divide, deceive and destroy. They speak as if they were God, not one of His creatures. From this observation, the sinners are in control of the Presbyterian Church (USA) because renewal efforts are shunned, ignored and rejected. Abandon all hope ye who enter here. Jack Vanderbleek Elder Northeast Presbyterian Church St. Petersburg, Fla. A question of legitimacy April 21, 2008 I have been amazed at the ramping up of anger and recriminations coming from the Presbyterian Church (USA) toward the Evangelical Presbyterian Church over the past year. Calls for actions against the EPC for unsubstantiated wrongdoings have reached hysterical levels, culminating with calls for investigations and breaks in interdenominational fellowship. Can it be that the PCUSA is losing the one thing they cannot under any circumstances afford to lose, and this loss is driving these reactions? One of the real fears that has arisen is that the PCUSA is losing it's legitimacy as a voice in American society, and a sign of that lost legitimacy is the exit of foundational congregations. It would seem the expected result of years of pluralism and inclusiveness has brought about the opposite result from what was envisioned by those who took the reins in Louisville many years ago. Instead, a splintered ineffectual body filled with confusion and loss of witness to a world badly in need of sound spiritual guidance has emerged. A denomination where millions will be spent on legal actions to keep property, but where missionaries are dropped due to lack of funds, speaks loudly of a loss of legitimacy. Those churches that are leaving didn't decide to do so overnight and the fact that the exit from the denomination is slow and steady bodes ill for the long-term health and growth of the PCUSA. Legitimacy lost is a hard thing to regain and I don't think there are a lot of good candidates for merger floating around out there for a denomination on the down swing. Instead of looking with anger at the EPC, the PCUSA needs to take a good look in the mirror and ask the hard question: What have we become? Jay Weemhoff Badin, N.C. Interesting editorial April 21, 2008 Interesting editorial; however, where is the part about how the GAPJC basically overturned the PUP recommendation 5? You do a disservice not to mention this in your editorial. Neil Zampella elder 'This denomination speaks out of both sides of its mouth' April 18, 2008 Reading the article about the Fort Myers congregation starting anew, I am once again insulted by the blatant falsehoods being promulgated by the leadership bureaucracy of the Presbyterian Church (USA). Look at the statements made by Mark Tammen:
If those statements were de facto true, we would not need to ask for an explanation of the Capetz and Larges fiascoes. If those statements were true, there would not be any number of unrepentant, self-identified gay and lesbian deacons, elders and ministers of Word and sacrament (Spahr) ordained in open defiance of the Constitution of the church. If those statements were true, ministers of this denomination would not defiantly participate in so-called marriage ceremonies for same-sex couples (Edwards.) If those statements were true, the stated clerk, GAC executive director and the director of constitutional services perhaps should have been the first people to bring remedial actions against those in open defiance of the Constitution and the ordination vows. The truth is that this denomination speaks out of both sides of its mouth and has completely forgotten or ignored the third mark of the true Church – discipline. Please spare us the insult of this pretense. Rev. Jim Yearsley Tampa, Fla. Justice in peacemaking program? April 18, 2008 I read with interest the recent article about the Presbyterian Church (USA)-sponsored Peacemaking Conference that will look at justice and poverty. I wonder if that look will turn inward and look at the paucity of justice and excess of poverty within the bounds of its own denomination. How can a denomination that persecutes its member churches, whose only crime is to adhere to Biblical standards and orthodox Reformed theology, ever preach justice to the world?
A question about the Ottati article April 18, 2008 Reading Mr. Adams' article about Dr. Ottati, I have some questions: When exactly did we develop a doctrine of the infallibility of the confessions? And does that doctrine apply to C-67 and the Brief Statement? Meghan Foote Greeley, Colo. 'Provide for the common defense' April 17, 2008 Our Constitution is clear: "provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare. …" Providing for the common defense requires spending assets (revenues from taxation) to equip armed forces and pay soldiers, sailors and Marines. Promotion calls for legislation that not necessarily requires spending federal assets, but can place lawful burdens on industry to pay fair wages, clean the environment, sell safe products and inspect commercial aircraft to insure airworthiness. The Constitution makes no provision for much of the welfare to individuals, industry and financial institutions that is commonplace today. Section 8 Article I does note that taxes can be collected to provide for defense and the general welfare of the United States. If one reads on, Section 8 covers specifics areas where spending is required; i.e., post offices, coining money, promotion of science, but mostly for defense. Merice Nelles elder (inactive) La Jolla Presbyterian Church PLC director's son killed by roadside bomb in Iraq April 17, 2008 I am saddened to hear that Mark Metherell died serving his country in Iraq. I am sure everything is in God's plans. I am praying for the family, and for the Presbyterian Lay Committee director's family. May God be with them and show them peace and mercy. I pray that this war will end soon. Charles Freeman Mississippi 'I know the Metherell family' April 17, 2008 I did not know Mark Metherell. I have been fortunate to know his mother and father. I send to them my deepest regrets and the assurance of the prayers of my wife and myself. On Saturday, may 3, the Kentucky Derby will be run. One of the horses in the race was named by our son John, 34 years ago. John died in Houston, Texas, 34 years ago last January. He was 3, he would be 37 today. The Fox TV station wanted to know the story of how our son named a horse. A horse that was not born yet! I told the man, as he gathered the background, that John was our baby. We have three other children. When I tell people about John's death, their almost certain response is: "Oh , you have lost a child." And, thank God, I am able to say of our baptized son of believing parents: "Oh no, he's the only one, of the four, that I know where he is." Pam and Alex, you will miss Mark so very, very much and some days will be worse than others, but two things are certain: God will enable you to get through it and Mark is not dead, he has gone to be with Jesus. Our son John said that. He told his brother David that, " Dabid, when little boys get sick and they don't get well, they go to be with Jesus." I don't know where he received that insight. Hs mother and I did not talk about his death. One of the dear ladies who came to M.D. Anderson Hospital and taught Sunday school may have said it. A Christian nurse or doctor may have told him. Thank God someone did because it has warmed our hearts to remember his testimony. Pam and Alex, your son Mark has gone to be with Jesus. There is an old German saying that I love. You probably know it, but here it is again: "Those who live in the Lord never see each other for the last time." May the risen and living Lord Jesus Christ be with you and all who knew and loved your son. David Long The Biblical term is 'wolves in sheep's clothing' April 16, 2008 I just finished reading John Adams' article "Professor who shuns Reformed orthodoxy hired to teach it at Davidson College." After gaining a clearer understanding of what Prof. Ottati believes (or is it more properly "doesn't believe"), I could not help but wonder whether the removal of the requirement that trustees be professing Christians has been extended to include professors of Reformed theology. If not, then I suspect they must merely be offering professorships to committed non-Christians who are active members of a Christian church. I think the Biblical term for this is "wolves in sheep's clothing." One day ... sigh ... maybe God's faithful people will finally find the backbone to say, "Enough is enough," and make it stick. Rev. Bill Pawson Westminster Community Church Canton, Ohio News flash to the Washington Office! April 14, 2008 News flash to the Washington Office! Cutting trade agreements with struggling countries like Columbia hurts workers, who lose jobs when we don't buy their products! I wish we required our Presbyterian Church (USA) staffers to take basic economics courses before we hire them. Well, at least alongside the Reformed theology classes that we don't seem to require either. … Toby Brown Cuero, Texas 'Ottati is just one symbol for the lampstand which has been removed' April 14, 2008 Why are you so shocked by the Ottati hire? Any connection between Christianity as profiled in Jesus, prescribed in Holy Scripture and upheld by our constitution and any institution related to the Presbyterian Church (USA) is increasingly coincidental. It's over. We've lost the battle for Jesus and the Bible in our franchise. We're outnumbered ... except for One! Those of us who remain to be faithful as missionaries to mainliners will keep on saltin' until He comes back for His bride. One more thing. Please don't expect folks who still believe in Jesus according to the Bible as upheld by our constitution to ask folks who still believe in Jesus according to the Bible as upheld by our constitution for money to support folks who lied at the chancel steps during ordination liturgies, didn't understand the questions but proceeded anyway, or changed their minds yet lack the integrity to demit. Ottati is just one symbol for the lampstand which has been removed. Robert Kopp Ottati 'one of the brightest theological lights' April 14, 2008 Doug Ottati is one of the brightest theological lights to illuminate theological thinking within the Reformed tradition and within the Presbyterian fold. Trash him you will and have, but you have not as yet brought competent and rational argument to refute his thinking. Three cheers and a huzzah for Davidson College the "Harvard of the South." They did well in basketball, but it was an even more brilliant move to lure Doug from Union to Davidson. Davidson is a great school and even greater with the addition of Doug Ottati. Union (Richmond) lost a great scholar. Herb D. Valentine Continuing to support the tactics of CIW 'is irresponsible' April 11, 2008 I wondered the same exact thing as Art Seaman [Letters, April 8, 2008] as I toured the Lower Ninth Ward in New Orleans. I saw the extreme poverty and wondered how such a thing could exist in the most prosperous country on earth. I never said I was against helping the poor. I am questioning the methods of doing so. It seems to me that supporting the CIW is the wrong way of helping the poor because, in many ways, their solutions don't help. Take, for example, the boycott. The boycott of large fast food industries will only hurt Immokalee further by forcing these companies out of the area, thus shutting down other farms and putting more farmers out of work. In another case, many of the sub-standard housing you saw was owned by private tomato farmers. The Florida State Growers Association has offered to buy those houses, tear them down and build them up again. The CIW opposed this idea. Why? I think because the answer lies in the fact that their continued existence depends on conflict. Again, I bring up Taco Bell and McDonald's. If the real issue is the $.01 per pound, why are we not boycotting Taco Bell again? (Taco Bell gave up the plan after a year and the McDonald's agreement fell apart before it started). But the CIW has instead gone after Burger King, which suggests to me that this whole fight was never about the penny a pound. This was political publicity. So, I agree that poverty is a large issue that absolutely needs to be addressed by the church. But the way we do this is not by supporting the tactics of the CIW. To continue to do so is irresponsible and ultimately unworkable. I hope this clarifies the issue. Bob Price First Presbyterian Church Downers Grove, Ill. A reply regarding the letter by Mark Plunkett April 11, 2008 In response to a letter [Letters, April 1, 2008] written by Mark Plunkett, I would like you to know that Pastor Elliot Scott has spent many hours listening to the people who voted to stay with the Presbyterian Church (USA). I know for a fact that he visited their homes late into the night discussing every issue they had. These are people in my own family that have sat in the same pew with me and my husband week after week hearing the same words I heard. Elliott never wavered from what he has been teaching us as long as I've been a member, which is the same time as my family that voted to stay. I was at most of the meeting. They were not. My husband and I support Elliott 100 percent and, as long as his teachings follow the Bible as it is written, we will continue to do so. It's always nice to hear both sides of a story before you make conclusions. Dana Mowe former member Heritage Presbyterian Church Another response to Mark Plunkett's letter April 11, 2008 Mr. Plunkett [Letters, April 1, 2008] has chosen to interject himself into the issues at Heritage Presbyterian Church with observations, assumptions and insinuations without affording himself an understanding of the facts or awareness of the condition or process this congregation has gone through over the past several months. Having never seen him at our church, having never seen his name in the minutes of any meetings, nor included in any of the e-mails throughout this entire process, having never seen his name in attendance at any of the multiple congregational meetings where open discussion was engaged, nor included in the review team's report, I ask myself just exactly who is this person who swaggers into this issue at the end game feeling he has the authority and the invitation to comment about our process and specifically our pastor. I am aware that he spoke to the minority on a Sunday morning a week or two ago. I will take a moment to enlighten this 'late arrival" to our process by replying to his final paragraph:
Our congregational vote, with 83 percent of those voting in favor of the motion to seek dismissal, it was the minority who disengaged itself from the life of the church either by leaving for other churches or, for those remaining, insisting upon having their own worship service. The minority chose that path. Not the majority and certainly not the pastors. Betrayed? How a small minority can feel betrayed when they have been given every invitation to participate in the process, been permitted to have their own worship service in conflict with our regular service schedule, and will now be given the property and the church by the presbytery as the majority peacefully withdraws is quite a leap. I can tell you in no uncertain terms and as an elder who worked closely with both pastors when I was on session, that the pastors defended with passion and understanding those very people who have been the most outspoken against him. We have all gone through a very a challenging and difficult period through this process. We had open discussion within our church family. The minority has prevailed and now they will have the responsibility of maintaining Heritage. Through this process, much has been learned by everyone. None of us are perfect and all of us are flawed. However, I wish to make it very clear to Mr. Plunkett and anyone who is reading this to know that our pastors have conducted themselves and led this church with nothing but love and civility and to suggest otherwise by anyone involved in this closely, let alone someone stepping into the fray after the battle is over, is just wrong. I would strongly suggest that Mr. Plunkett go to the Heritage web site and download any sermon from our pastors to gain a more enlightening awareness of who and what these pastors are all about before suggesting otherwise. As the majority begins a new church in Northwest Houston this Sunday, we will continue to pray that our friends remaining at Heritage Presbyterian Church will continue the work of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they will grow to become sustainable and that all of us remember we serve Him. Michael Brentari 'Mission of the Church is not synonymous with mission of PCUSA' April 9, 2008 I applaud John Adams' recognition that the mission of the Church is not synonymous with the mission of the Presbyterian Church (USA). Christ's cause will flourish, not just in spite of the PCUSA's decline, but likely because the PCUSA is now one of the "best worst examples" of what occurs when an institution bearing Christ's name strays from faithfulness to Christ. While mission support from Louisville under the direction of "Taco Bell" Kirkpatrick has been driven off the cliff, it looks like mission support from local PCUSA congregations has increased. Which raises this question: Is there any way to determine the actual numbers of missionaries now supported by local PCUSA congregations? Donald D. Denton, Jr. Richmond, Va. 'I kept wondering if this is America?' April 8, 2008 In January of this year, I toured Immokalee in Florida. I was not part of any tour or mission trip, just a detour on a vacation. What I saw in four hours of driving around was awful working conditions, sub-standard housing and poverty of the worst kind that I might have seen in Haiti or Belize. I was simply appalled. I kept wondering if this is America? The Immokalee tomato workers are the most downtrodden of our society. Good grief, they live in deplorable conditions and work at awful wages. Anything we can do to help them is the work of Christ. I paid $1.59 for tomatoes today. It could have been $2.00 if it would help these poor people. That big corporations have no concern over a dollar a pound for tomatoes to help the workers is just plain a sin of the first order. The letter of Bob Price [Letters, April 3, 2008] is objectionable. Throughout the history of the American labor movement, the unions have been accused of being commies, socialists, anarchists and worse. It does not matter if it is the steelworkers, the coal miners, the nurses union or the auto workers, it is the same refrain. Why in the world would you object to helping the very poor gain a little more money? Those who think the church does not belong in this fight do not understand the Gospel of the living Christ who lifted up the poor. This is the work of the church and God bless those who side with the plight of the poor. Those who think this is not worth our trouble need to go back and read The Grapes of Wrath and the Bible. Art Seaman honorably retired Kittanning, Pa. Another split in the Bible Presbyterian Church? April 8, 2008 I am still trying to get information on this, but what I hear in a Bible Presbyterian discussion group is that some sort of split may have taken place. How large and who's involved, I haven't ascertained yet. There were already two groups both claiming to be the Bible P.C., an anti-McIntire majority party and a pro-McIntire minority party. Both have or had synods with subordinate presbyteries. This latest split, if it happened, is in the ranks of the anti-McIntire majority party. The Bible Presbyterian congregation in Kansas City is part of the anti-McIntire minority – if it still functions. Last time I checked, and that was over the winter, they had two or three cars showing up for their Sunday morning service. I am not certain how large the combined B.P. church is. In 1984, just as they split, I heard about an estimate of about 4,000 members. Most of the Bible Presbyterian Church is now in the Presbyterian Church of America. There was a split in the 1950s, once again into pro- and anti-McIntire camps. The anti-McIntire majority took 60 percent of the denomination. This majority later merged with a dying Reformed Presbyterian group to produce the Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Synod. The annexation of the RPCES into the PCA, and subsequent individual congregational defections, have put a majority of the churches with a Bible P.C. heritage into the PCA. There is also a group called the American Presbyterian Church, formed ca. 1970 when the Bible Presbyterian synod jettisoned their Presbytery of Philadelphia. Other B.P. congregations have gone independent, such as the one in Barrington, N.J., whose pastor was part of the Independent Board for Presbyterian Foreign Missions trials. Several other congregations have just died out. W. Aardsma A response to the letter by Jim Yearsley April 8, 2008 The Rev. Jim Yearsley [Letters, April 1, 2008] notes that he knows Paul Rolf Jensen quite well and can assure me his heart is in the right place, for lack of better words. I'm glad to hear this. I will simply share again that at the time charges were filed by Mr. Jensen, I simply had no clue as to who he is or anything about him as an individual or follower of Christ. I never met him, but just simply heard about him through the news - cold and hard facts. Mr. Berkley seemed to have some issues with the Presbyterian Church (USA), announcing hard and cold facts about the appointment of an attorney. Oddly enough, I could relate. Here's the bottom line from my point of view as one that was in the middle of all the fuss. It seems to me if one is honestly passionate about a cause, the person will appear before the person and other affected parties (such as the Mount Auburn congregation), whether that person is invited or not. The fact is Mr. Jensen never stepped inside the Mount Auburn church to speak with us. Jesus took the time to throw out the money changers in the temple, so why didn't Mr. Jensen and others come into the Mount Auburn sanctuary to throw us out? It would be quite easy, but never happened. Mr. Jensen, in my opinion, took the easier way out in the PCUSA system of simply following the judicial code. It's cold and heartless in the end, sorry to say, but I can't claim to have done better. Perhaps Mr. Jensen was not aware of the final consequences of his using the judicial code. I simply will never know because I've never seen anything shared by him about it. That is my point. Mr. Yearsley is correct in noting that I, as an ordained deacon, knew Mr. Van Kuiken and others in leadership at Mount Auburn. I was ordained during Mr. Van Kuiken's ministry there and appreciated the call to ministry. I will add, for those who think it significant, that I happened to be gay at the time and still am. Mr. Yearsley notes: "You certainly knew Mr. Van Kuiken and the other players at Mt. Auburn. And, inasmuch as you identify yourself as an ordained officer in the church, you certainly should have known that the actions being promulgated were violating the peace, unity and purity of the church." Well, actually, the actions did not violate the peace, unity and purity of the church. I believe in my heart that Mr. Van Kuiken was sincere and still appreciate very much his ministry to me an others. What Mr. Yearsley and others may not appreciate is the disagreement that may happen in an individual church on strategy. It happened at Mount Auburn and is no secret. Regardless, the end goal was to bring the PCUSA together on the issue of LBGT persons serving. In that regard, it does bring peace, unity and purity. Mr. Yearsley states: "Mr. Van Kuiken and his cohort within Mt. Auburn bear the responsibility for the actions which brought about a needed and appropriate change within Mt. Auburn." Well, OK, what was the appropriate change? Maybe I've been sleeping. I guess it is true that we don't use the word marriage any more for same-sex couples, but then it isn't used for opposite-sex couples either. It's up to the couple to decide. So, in the end, it is still the same for both. Isn't that wonderful? I do regret the fact that Mr. Van Kuiken and others left our congregation when this fuss came about. But they do have a congregation of their own known as The Gathering that is now part of the UCC. I think this is wonderful that they continue on their own path in faith. Mr. Van Kuiken often said in our services that we are all on a journey. I still appreciate this. Earl C. Apel deacon Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church Cincinnati, Ohio 'Upset' at plan to boycott Burger King April 3, 2008 I don't know why I've been so upset about the situation between our stated clerk and the Coalition of Immokalee Workers. Frankly, I have to confess a great deal of anger and frustration on my part. I have spent some time, cooling down, and trying to get facts. Here is what I have discovered:
All of these things make me think that it's a bad deal to get involved with the Immokalee. I really hope that our stated clerk will look at these facts and change his mind. Bob Price First Presbyterian Church Downers Grove, Ill. 'Thud' from Louisville appreciated April 1, 2008 I appreciated Mac's "thud" about per capita [Letters, March 31, 2008]. Franchise jingoists rationalize subscriptions at the golden, uh, "bull "of connectionalism, as if women and men of good conscience are about to feed anyone for anything which contradicts Biblical Christianity as upheld by our constitution. I don't think so. As I remain to be faithful rather than separate to be faithful, I cannot lie any more about the misappropriation of funds in ways dishonoring the holiness of our Lord. Robert Kopp A question regarding Heritage Presbyterian Church April 1, 2008 In your article about Heritage Presbyterian Church voting to leave the Presbyterian Church (USA), it was stated that, "All of the relationships have been non-confrontational, non-adversarial both from the presbytery's perspective and from the church's perspective," he (Mike Cole) said. "We have maintained really good, solid working relationships, good lines of communication." Furthermore, Mike Cole also "spoke highly of both Scott and his church." Elliott and I maintain a good friendship, which is fascinating in this," he said. "He and I certainly have a high level of trust with one another." And finally, the article said, "And on the floor of presbytery, two members of the review team spoke publicly directly to Rev. Scott to let him know that it was in no way the intention of the review team to offend him or any of the leadership. They thought they were doing what was responsible in making some observations about the process – particularly before the presbytery became engaged with the congregation." With all these PCUSA folks appearing to bend over backwards to act like Christians should, I wonder what the pastor of Heritage had to say about them, the presbytery he just left, and how he has been treated. If he is at a loss for words, he might want to talk with some of the folks from Heritage who voted to stay in PCUSA. They are angry, hurt and feel betrayed. I'll bet they might have a comment or two for him. Mark Plunkett Houston, Texas Letters aims at the wrong target April 1, 2008 Mr. Apel [Letters, March 28, 2008] speaks provocatively of his questions about Mr. Jensen's faith. Perhaps I can help. I do know Paul and can assure Mr. Apel that Paul's positions, work and efforts were all grounded in his faith and his love for the Presbyterian Church and our traditional faith and practice. Here, however, is my issue with Mr. Apel's skewed perspectives. To quote from his letter, Mr. Apel says: "Mr. Jensen's action made a significant change to my church family that brought much hurt and division." Nonsense! Mr. Van Kuiken and his cohort within Mt. Auburn bear the responsibility for the actions which brought about a needed and appropriate change within Mt. Auburn. Hurt and division came as the result of constitutional defiance and apostasy on their part. Blaming the one who holds one accountable for wrongdoing is dishonest, disingenuous and puerile. Perhaps, as you say, you didn't know Mr. Jensen. You certainly knew Mr. Van Kuiken and the other players at Mt. Auburn. And, inasmuch as you identify yourself as an ordained officer in the church, you certainly should have known that the actions being promulgated were violating the peace, unity and purity of the church. Rev. Jim Yearsley Tampa, Fla. |
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