November 2004 letters Archives of letters to the editor

Does 'no harm, no foul' trump Reformed theological foundations? November 29, 2004 Joan Runyeon's statement, regarding the "marriage" of two gay men by Janie Spahr, "If it's proved that Janie did this wedding, it would be hard to believe anyone was hurt by it. ..." implies the old "no harm, no foul" view of what constitutes right or wrong. Is this what Presbyterians consider foundational for truth and righteousness? What happened to Reformed theological foundations? In all honesty, we should note that Ms. Runyeon went on to note that ".... it is against our constitution." But does the final statement mask her position as found in the first? Rev. Steven L. Seng First Presbyterian Church Wellsburg, W.Va. Churches should speak for themselves November 29, 2004 Right on River Road. It is my fervent prayer that all sessions and particularly those that are Confessing Churches would follow suit. It would be one way in which the churches could speak for themselves rather that the GA assuming that it speaks for all churches within the denomination, which is missing the boat big time on most everything. Jack Fox, elder First Presbyterian Church Towanda, Pa. Session commended for stating concerns using Biblical grounds November 29, 2004 On the whole, I would commend the New Hanover session for stating their concerns on Biblical grounds with one glaring exception. That glaring exception is their "shock" at the 216th General Assembly's statement on the War in Iraq. I see no Biblical quotations to support their "shock." Perhaps that is because there aren't any. Neil D. Cowling, pastor Kirk of Our Savior, Presbyterian Church (USA) Westland, Mich. PCUSA leadership believes in another gospel November 29, 2004 Why should New Hanover Presbyterian Church located in Mechanicsville, Va., chastise the PCUSA? PCUSA leadership overall rejects the Holy Bible as the Word of God, and if the leadership of the PCUSA believed in the same, abortion, homosexuality, gay ordination would not be an issue along with other issues from the pit of hell. The PCUSA leadership believes in another gospel, as Paul instructs in Galatians 1. Either New Hanover Presbyterian Church fights to preserve the truth in the Holy Bible, or make preparations to leave; otherwise, nothing will change in PCUSA leadership. Lou. S. Nowasielski Wilmington, Del. PCUSA is speaking prophetically about social and economic injustice November 29, 2004 Thank you for reporting on the "Stony Point Declaration" which assailed the United States for pursuing a "global empire, backed by unprecedented military supremacy" and for declaring the U.S.'s commitment to a "capitalistic economic system (that) has enriched the corporate ruling class at the expense of the earth and the poor." But for The Layman, I would not have known that such a declaration had been issued. All I can say is, Praise the Lord! Finally, the PCUSA is speaking prophetically to the "powers and principalities" about social and economic injustice. That declaration is very much in line with the prophetic words of Jesus and the Old Testament prophets. O that the local churches would take that message to heart. It is reminiscent of the great American prophet, Reinhold Niebuhr, who declared: "There is no social evil, no form of injustice... which has not been sanctioned in some way or other by religious sentiment and thereby rendered impervious to change ... The final sin is always committed in the name of religion. A part of the Church, fearing involvement in the ambiguities of politics, has declared the problems of politics to be irrelevant to the Christian life. Usually this neutrality has not even been honestly neutral. the neutral Church is usually an ally of the established social forces." Lee H. Lybarger, elder First Presbyterian Church Delaware, Ohio Many in PCUSA are not getting the full story on the Mid East conflict November 29, 2004 I have been heartbroken by the anti-Israel position taken by the Presbyterian Church. I hope that you made sure to get facts from the Israeli side, as well as the Palestinian side. It is clear that many in the Presbyterian Church are not getting the full story on the Mideast conflict. I am a Jewish Arab refugee who was forced to leave my home in Iraq in 1951. I was lucky that Israel welcomed me and 800,000 other Jews and allowed us to assimilate and create new lives for ourselves. In contrast, the Arabs that left their homes in Palestine (at the word of the surrounding Arab states whose plan was to rid the area of Jews), lost their homes because they chose to leave. Those Arabs who chose to stay became Israeli citizens, and experience a very high standard of living compared to most Arab citizens of all other countries. The other Arab countries should have absorbed the refugees, and allowed them to attain citizenship in the various countries. Instead, the Arabs committed a crime against their brothers, by forcing these Arabs to remain in refugee camps. Please talk to Bridgette Gabriel, a fellow Christian from Lebanon. She will tell you of the horrors her family (and the Lebanese Christians) suffered at the hands of the Lebanese. She grew up thinking that Israel was the devil, and learned instead that Israelis were the most compassionate and caring people around. Tamara Fiche, Ph.D. West Orange, N.J. Caterpillar also used as an example in PNS stories November 29, 2004 The Rev. Bart Roush in his recent letter stated: "I implore The Layman Online to consider changing its language and adding more specific information to prevent further misunderstanding and to avoid the appearance of misleading its readers and using inflammatory language." Perhaps his letter would have been better directed to Louisville. Starting with a complaint to Alexa Smith regarding her quite one-sided story on Rachel Corrie's encounter with Caterpillar: PCUSA News Release Number -- 04463 -- Corries push US government ... Here are links to other news reports from Louisville that included Caterpillar in the story: PCUSA News Release Number -- 04455 -- Jewish peace group ... PCUSA News Release Number 04342 -- Nuns squeeze Caterpillar PCUSA News Release No. 04341 -- Taking stock of taking stock PCUSA 216th General Assembly (2004) -- News -- Assembly endorses ... PCUSA News Release Number -- 04436 -- High-level Presbyterians and ... PCUSA News Release Number -- 04444 -- Talk of the town PCUSA News Service Archives for 2004 -- October PCUSA 216th General Assembly (2004) -- News -- 'Tear down this ... PCUSA News Service Archives for 2004 -- August PCUSA News Release Number 03431 -- Mine field PCUSA Washington Office -- Middle East -- War on Terror Larry Rued, elder First Presbyterian Church Bradenton, Fla. Session agrees with 'fidelity-chastity' November 29, 2004 New Hanover agrees with the current policy on ordination. Richard and Stacy McGrath The Grinch movie is not authoritative for the teachings of Christ November 29, 2004 Re: Virginia congregation chastises PCUSA for policies on abortion, ordination, war, marriage and the family Have we as Christians become so foolish as to believe we can survive as followers of Jesus Christ by occupying the battleground between the opposing forces in a religious war? Are we so certain of our position of power that dalliances with the entanglements of the above topics will not bring ruin upon our heads? Turn to Ephesians. Read carefully. Do not accept the most recent version of The Grinch Who Stole Christmas, as authoritative for the teachings of Christ. I claim to be a follower of Christ. I am not a follower of Artemis/Diana. The glorious themes of the Bible are life within the paradigm of the Judeo/Christian heritage. Listen up, you who would join the world of Whoville. In another matter, the action of ACSWP should have never taken place. Censure and nullification of this action is now absolutely necessary. Dale C. Fenner John Knox Presbyterian Church Indianapolis, Ind. Baltimore will not comply with PCUSA's confessional/constitutional stance November 24, 2004 Sooner or later, someone has to speak up and act in the face of defiance and apostasy on the part of presbyteries and sessions. Baltimore has, both de facto and de jure, declared that it will not comply with the confessional and constitutional stance of this denomination. I see that as being the equivalent of renouncing the jurisdiction of the denomination. That being the case, shouldn't the synod responsible already be acting to bring them into compliance? At the very least, the staff, council and commissions of that presbytery should be dismissed and an administrative commission empanelled to effect restoration. Have we completely forgotten our responsibilities to discipline the church in our rush to be culturally conformed? I am disgusted. Shame on them all. Rev. Jim Yearsley Pittsburgh, Pa. Third way? No way! November 24, 2004 I could not help but agree with Robert Leaf's description of the so-called "Third Way" touted by Moderator Ufford-Chase. However, I believe that Mr. Leaf did not take his description far enough to fully reflect the skewed reality of morally bankrupt liberalism and its agenda of libertine deathstyles. Mr. Leaf should have said: "The 'Third Way' is the left gets what they want, the traditionalists get to live with it and are expected to pay for the privilege." Third way? No way! As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord. Rev. Bill Pawson Westminster Community Church Canton, Ohio A Confessing Church Be very clear and specific when discussing divestment issue November 24, 2004 Under the heading "Caterpillar Watch," the Layman Online states that, "the General Assembly voted overwhelmingly in July to divest of funds in multinational corporations that do business with Israel." Given the explosiveness and high emotions surrounding this particular issue, I think it imperative that we as Presbyterians be very clear and specific when we report on this topic, no matter where our conscience rests. There has been much misinformation and overstatement of fact reported in a variety of media on this issue. While the General Assembly did vote in an overwhelming majority, the vote allowed only for "phased selective divestment" given a set of criteria recently created by the committee of the PCUSA that is responsible for socially responsible investing. To state that the "General Assembly voted to divest of funds in multinational corporation that do business with Israel" gives the impression that any company doing business in Israel may be subject to divestment. Additionally, no mention is given that no actual divestment may occur any earlier than June 2006, and then only after a series of actions with identified companies, including filing shareholder resolutions so that shareholders may discuss these issues publicly. Lastly, no specific corporations have been named as of yet; this is expected in the Spring of 2005. To title the section "Caterpillar Watch" is presumptuous, although I admit Caterpillar is likely to be a company named. I believe discretion and accuracy is the prudent course. It is exactly these types of overstatements and lack of specificity that has led many to misunderstand exactly what action the General Assembly took and what further action the Presbyterian Church will take concerning this contentious issue. I implore The Layman Online to consider changing its language and adding more specific information to prevent further misunderstanding and to avoid the appearance of misleading its readers and using inflammatory language. In such times as these I think this is the very least we can do as faithful people. Rev. Bart Roush Fox Valley Presbyterian Church Geneva, Ill. Caterpillar was used as an example of divestment during the assembly's debate by a speaker representing the Peacemaking Committee, which was making the recommendation. The editors. Title is misleading, since no money is made until stock is sold November 24, 2004 The title "Stock has earned PCUSA $500,000 since GA mandate" is a somewhat misleading statement, and I know that The Layman stands for truth. The Caterpillar stock has gone up in value and has increased the dollar amount in the PCUSA portfolios by $500,000, but has not actually earned the PCUSA a cent. No money has actually been made or lost until the stock is sold (unless a dividend has been paid out, but that amount would be negligible). The $500,000 is an unrealized gain or profit. Note, just because the Caterpillar stock has risen in value by over 17 percent in five months does not necessarily mean that it is should be held onto. It may be good timing for it to be sold regardless of whom they do or don't do business with if the stock becomes overvalued, etc. Keeping a stock to show support of Israel does not sound like fiscally responsible investing just as divesting to make a statement against Israel does not sound like fiscally responsible investing. Rev. Tom Unkenholz Harrison Presbyterian Church (a Confessing Church) Harrison, N.Y. Friend of the court, but enemy of Scripture November 24, 2004 It occurs to me that no matter how many scholars, pastors, activists or scientists might agree on a more progressive, inclusive, "loving" definition, marriage by definition is one man and one woman in commitment/covenant before God and man – just as one plus one will always equal two, because that's what it is. There is simply no wiggle room. As someone said, "a rose by any other name is still a rose." Unfortunately, we will be maligned as "narrow-minded" for this view. One main problem of the other view is that there is no appreciation for the richness of God's intention in that very narrow definition. A simple example of God's richness can be found in the very limited set of letters in the English alphabet. "Only" twenty-six! "How limiting!" "How narrow-minded!" But, now think of the vast array of words that can be formed from those 26 ink blots. Then, from those words, think of the unimaginable array of ideas and expressions. All from 26 letters! Dan McConnell NCC does not speak for majority of Christians November 24, 2004 Heidinger is right. The National Council of Churches does not speak for the majority of Christians. The majority of Christians are warmongers. They will start their wars so they can pray for peace. What hypocrites! Dan Sweeton Lebanon, Tenn. Hundreds of Presbyterians support special G.A. session November 24, 2004 On yesterday's The Layman Online, Douglas Anderson [letter to the editor, November 23, 2004] rhetorically asks "When will membership take their church back?" My opinion is the membership has felt so disenfranchised for such a long time that they do not know where or how to begin. Let me offer, one more time, a way for the membership to begin re-enfranchising itself. There is an online petition calling for the G.A. to come back to special session to rescind the Israel Divestment Resolution. As of today, 301 Presbyterian members, elders and ministers have enfranchised themselves by signing the petition. Some have expressed a concern about the estimated $250,000 to hold a special G.A. session. While the cost of a special G.A session may seem high, it pales in comparison to the cost of Presbyterians leaving this denomination. In 2003, more than 46,000 people exited the PCUSA. Assuming the 46,000 made the average church contribution of just over $900 per annum, their departure represents a $41 million charge to the mission of this denomination. Let me close with rhetorical questions. Would Fred Edwards (see his letter of Nov 23) have remained a PCUSA member if he knew that thousands of members, elders and ministers were petitioning G.A. to return in special session to rescind a terrible resolution? I know of two PCUSA members who have left because of the Israel Divestment. How many others have left? Larry Rued, elder First Presbyterian Church Bradenton, Fla. Baltimore Presbytery's action was a rebellion against Scripture November 23, 2004 As an elder who expressed a dissenting view at this meeting, I am saddened and disappointed by the action of Baltimore Presbytery. There was an attempt by the council to delay the vote until our January meeting. That overture was defeated 48 to 41. Also, an evangelical pastor wanted to insert the word "union" for "marriage," to read "civil union" instead of "civil marriage." This was offered as a compromise to bring those from the left and right to the middle. That proposed amendment was also defeated in a voice vote. I feel that this action will only further divide our denomination and may well be the spark that will contribute to the flame of a final and irreversible split. It was my opinion that those who vigorously pursued a vote on this divisive issue had little regard for the negative outcomes that will surely follow within and without our presbytery. Those who supported this action also seemed to have no concern for the model of marriage provided in Scripture. The famous and sacred "Cleave to his wife" passage was even mentioned as being in the Word of God often. It had little impact, as no one in favor of the overture even addressed the issue. I even pointed out that I considered this to be rebellion against Scripture during discussions and in a handwritten note of dissent at the end of the meeting. I say this with all sadness, and hopefully humility, that I am very ashamed to be associated with the Presbytery of Baltimore at this moment. If I am wrong and those who wanted this action are right, I hope the Lord Jesus will forgive me. If those who sought this brief are wrong, I have asked the Lord to forgive them as well. I hope that the hand of the Lord will intervene for a solution that will return us to a path of peace and righteousness. I ask for the prayers of those who read this for what we have done. Steele H. Glenn, elder Fallston Presbyterian Church Fallston, Md. Is Baltimore Presbytery's apostasy not clear? November 23, 2004 What can/ought our denomination do to address a presbytery that openly advocates the opposite of what we as a denomination officially stands for – i.e. Baltimore Presbytery openly and vigorously supporting gay marriage through an amici curiae brief when it is clearly precluded by our constitution and Scripture? Can/ought synod or GA, and/or do they have the right or power, to stop their activism? Is the apostasy not clear? Does this activism set them apart from our denomination? Rev. Steven L. Seng First Presbyterian Church Wellsburg, W.V. We have strayed from our Biblical foundation for the sake of political correctness November 23, 2004 The latest PCUSA profile points clearly to the problem in our denomination. When only 43% of members, 50% of elders, 39% of pastors, and 24% of other clergy strongly agree or agree that "only followers of Jesus Christ can be saved" there is a problem. Have we forgotten John 14:6? "Jesus answered, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one come to the Father expect through me." The confessions of our church proclaim that Jesus alone is the source of our salvation and the only way to restore our relationship with God. The problem is that we have strayed from our Biblical foundation and our great heritage for the sake of political correctness and tolerance. Our faith has always rested on the proclamation of the good news that Jesus Christ came to save sinners and that he alone is the author of salvation. It is my prayer that we return to our strength and proclaim the only message that has truly transformed the world, that the resurrected and still living Jesus saves people from their sins and frees them to truly live life. Dr. C. Worth Wilson III Mount Pisgah Presbyterian Church Cle Elum, Wash. Special offer for those who believe the mischaracterization of AI was inadvertent November 23, 2004 I urge all those who believe that the mischaracterization of the Authoritative Interpretation by speakers at the last General Assembly was inadvertent and that the speakers genuinely regret misinforming fellow commissioners to please contact me. I'm offering for sale home shares of the Sahara Timber & Irrigation Company that will surely appeal to you. Fenton G. Cates Ashland, Ore. It appears commissioners were not particularly capable November 23, 2004 Let's be charitable and presume the speakers were not lying like rugs, deliberately attempting to mislead in order to achieve a political result that would not be possible if the truth were part of the equation. It was an honest mistake. Given the numbers of times these guys had to find out the truth and the sheer incompetence shown by their failing to get it right, and instead getting it wrong even when questioned, it appears they are not particularly capable. From now on, then, it would be a good idea to pay them no attention and to make sure they are never again in a position where this astounding lack of capacity to get the simple things right might cause difficulties for the church. This may sound harsh, but the alternative is that they lied and the moderator assures us they didn't. Is there a third possibility I've overlooked? Richard A. Aubrey Jr. PCUSA is losing members because it is riddled with unbelief November 23, 2004 There is no riddle to why the Presbyterian Church (USA) is experiencing record membership loss. Our denomination is losing members because it is riddled with unbelief. Witness the report of the Research Services office: 57% of our membership, 50% of our elders, 61% of our pastors and 76% of our specialized clergy do not believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. It strikes me as odd that a majority in these same categories (70% or better for all but specialized clergy at 55%) also hold that "the only absolute truth for humankind is in Jesus Christ." If we believe him when he says, "I am the truth," why can't we trust him when, in the same breath, he says, "I am the way and ... the life?" (John 14:6a). If Jesus Christ carries "the only absolute truth for humankind" and he proclaims, "No one comes to the Father except through me," why do we deny the veracity of his self-revelation? (John 14:6b). All who receive him, who believe in his name, are given by him the right to become children of God. All who reject him, who refuse to believe, are left without hope (John 1:12). "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he [or she] has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" (John 3:18). The Presbyterian Church (USA) is under condemnation because, on the whole, we are a company of unbelievers. We cannot and should not expect God to add to our number such as are daily believing in Christ Jesus for salvation when we ourselves do not share their faith (Acts 2:47). Day by day those of our number who do share that faith in Jesus Christ as the one and only Savior of humankind are waking up to the truth that they are commanded in Scripture: "Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?" (2 Corinthians 6:14-15). One by one, they are exiting the Presbyterian Church (USA) by the hundreds. Our shrinking denomination is the victim of its own unbelief. Jim Henkel, Confessing Church pastor North Benton Presbyterian Church North Benton, Ohio Eastminster Presbytery PCUSA has a religious responsibility to get the facts right November 23, 2004 The "fact finding" mission underwritten by your denomination and its representatives could clearly have been elucidated by reading the history of both participants. Books written by Prof. Bernard Lewis and Conor Cruise O'Brien will clearly show in a factual, concise manner the terrorism and injustice that Israel has faced by worldwide ignorance and anti-Semitism. America today is in a leadership position to prevent the further erosion of democracy throughout the world. It appears to me that your denomination needs a bit more comprehension of the history of the Middle East over the past 100 years. Reading about the infamy of the French and English in their creation and dividing up of the territories now called Iraq, Lebanon, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Jordan and UAR would be incisive. As a major influence, you have a religious responsibility to get the facts right. Alan Nathan Cahn Lincolnwood, Ill. Will PCUSA give back the money it made off Caterpillar investments? November 23, 2004 Since the PCUSA brain trust sought to divest investments from companies helping Israel, those investments have been making money. I wonder if the PCUSA brain trust will give the money back. In the name of cultural diversity, broadmindedness and placating terrorists, wouldn't it be the Christian thing to give profits to sworn enemies? I wonder who is now calling the kettle black? Lou. S. Nowasielski Wilmington, Del. God will judge how leadership and members respond to presbytery's action November 23, 2004 Might the leadership of the PCUSA have – assuming it wants to have – Biblical guidelines to deal with the defiant, unrepentant Baltimore Presbytery (Baltimore Presbytery backs suit seeking gay marriages; Nov. 19, Layman Online)? Paul, as led by the Holy Spirit, gives many passages against which this situation may be tested. Please read and seriously consider these three as a beginning: I Corinthians 5:9-13, II Corinthians 6:14-18 and Ephesians 4:17-19. His authority for writing these admonitions? The Holy Spirit of God. Might Matthew 18:15-17 be applicable? The authority for the One speaking these words? His own – Jesus Christ our Lord! None of these admonitions are suggestions. Neither are they optional. God will judge how both the leadership of the PCUSA and the members of individual PCUSA churches respond to this specific act by the Baltimore Presbytery. Is there no way, true brothers and sisters in Christ, for the Baltimore Presbytery to be censured up to and through the rebukes mandated by God? They do not need to remain defiant and a part of the PCUSA. Look to God's Word. Pray and work for God's control of this presbytery to be evidenced! Now might not be too late to do this. Tomorrow might be. As we can see historically from his Word, God will not long allow his patience to be considered acquiescence. I Timothy 6:20, 21; "Oh Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called 'knowledge' – which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you." (NASB) Greg Leaman Sheboygan County, Wisc. When will membership take their church back? November 23, 2004 This is just one more fact about the disconnect between the leadership and the members of the PCUSA. When will the membership take back their church? Douglas Anderson Southlake, Texas Highest PCUSA officials owe Israel and Jews a sincere and humble apology November 23, 2004 I read the editorial regarding the 'fact-finding' trip funded by the staff at PCUSA. I'm so outraged that I wrote Stated Clerk Kirkpatrick informing him that I am withholding my per-capita contributions and, instead, using that money to join two Jewish-founded organizations, the Simon Wiesenthal Center and the Museum of Tolerance, Los Angeles. I'll support organizations that promote true peace and tolerance, not those that support terrorists and insult Jews. The highest officials of the PCUSA owe Israel and Jews a sincere and humble apology. Lawrence J. Bach More information wanted on Haiti November 23, 2004 Please keep me informed of any further information you receive about safety and events in Haiti. The Michigan Dunamis of PRMI is scheduled to go to Haiti on Feb 1, 2005 to teach the Episcopal priests and lay leaders the second in the series of the Dunamis Project, "The Gifts of the Holy Spirit." We were there in January 2004 to teach "Gateways on the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit." The priests were so grateful for the initial Dunamis and they so need spiritual encouragement. They are faithful people of God. They serve in a very barren place with poverty, conflict and voodoo. We are eager to continue to serve them, but do not wish to be involved in any conflict that would close the doors for the future. Margie Van Meter Ann Arbor, Mich. Calling a sin a 'lifestyle' does not erase its sinfulness November 23, 2004 It doesn't surprise me that this action comes from the Baltimore Presbytery – but it does disappoint me. How long will it take until it is learned that just by calling a sin a "lifestyle" does not erase its sinfulness? And – for those who say we should stay out of the "political" arena because it doesn't affect the Church – should we then stop advocating for the poor or protesting unjust actions of our government? No, of course not. But we should never advocate for and/or defend any secular/civil action that is sinful – because a sin is a sin whether or not it is committed by a Christian, an adherent to another "faith system" or a rabid atheist. Lord help us if we ever abrogate our "responsibilities to be responsible" in the public realm. John Calvin himself would have recognized a "secular sin" for what it was and would have made it plain that it was incompatible with support by any Biblically-based Christian church [which is what the PCUSA purports itself to be – at least, the last time I looked]. Rev. Larry Yerger Wintergarden Presbyterian Church Port Charlotte, Fla. Writer is pleased with staff firings November 23, 2004 If these individuals were fired because of their conduct concerning a known terrorist organization and their repugnant statements thereafter, then I for one am pleased. Gary Silow It's about time PCUSA staffers are held accountable for actions November 23, 2004 All I can say is that it's about time that these people are held accountable for their total irresponsibility! I hope that this is only the beginning of a re-vamping of the leadership of the Presbyterian church. I. Borman Edgewater, N.J.

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