letters: Same-sex 'holy unions'


FEEDBACK

Same-sex 'holy unions' Loss of Amendment O causes a deep wound April 24, 2001 The loss of Amendment O has left a deep wound in the life of our church. I am offended by the "same-sex union ceremonies" that have been going on in our churches and the failure of our highest court to prohibit the act. We feel the wording of Amendment O was so poor that it confused a lot of people and many didn't know if they should vote yes or no. We get so frustrated with the church and the standing on homosexuals. We don't know how much longer we can continue to be a member of the Presbyterian Church, as of now we are considering pulling out our membership till the church starts to stand on the Word of God. We will no longer give our money to this denomination. We will look outside the church for places to give our offerings to the Lord. The Presbyterian Church is becoming weaker and weaker, giving into people's feel-good attitudes. Many of them don't believe the Bible is true, even pastors. Isn't that sad? Mr. and Mrs. George Mikeska Erase sin from record January 24, 2001 Let's see. We want to be able to ordain ministers who are homosexual in their sexual inclinations. The Bible calls that sin. But we don't like to hear that. It's not fair, so why don't we just do away with the concept of sexual sin altogether. We'll just give our seal of approval for our ministers to go out and have sex any old way they want with any person they want. Adultery too? Let's write that out of the book while we're at it. It doesn't matter whether we sin or not as long as we are fair, right? God gave us minds, after all. Anything we can think of with those minds must be OK with Him. Gary Houseman Ashburn Presbyterian Church Ashburn, Va. Texts support gay agenda January 24, 2001 I would like to address some concerns that we have for our Presbyterian Church (USA) in southeastern Wisconsin. The pastors seemed to spend a lot of time on homosexual issues. The Milwaukee-area presbytery that includes our local Presbyterian Church has been in "opposition" to the regional (statewide) Presbyterian Synod and the national governing body, the Presbyterian General Assembly. Recently, an interim pastor delivered a sermon to our congregation that he described as an evangelical sermon. His objective, however, was clearly to "evangelize" the homosexual agenda. He claimed that God never spoke against homosexual behavior. His Biblical reference to this subject was incongruent. Other church members also told us that a recent guest speaker preached a Sunday to advocate for homosexual marriages. This must have occurred on a Sunday that we did not attend. One of our church members confronted the pastor about his "evangelical" sermon. The member pointed out that his comments seemed to be an inappropriate interpretation of the Scripture. The pastor merely brushed off the member's understanding of Scripture as inadequate. It now occurs to me that this pastor and other pastors of this parish have been laying the groundwork for their agenda for a very long time. They have made general references to two particular publications. I have purchased and read these two books – The Jesus Mysteries: Was the Original Jesus a Pagan God? by Timothy Freke and The Fifth Gospel: The Gospel of Thomas Comes of Age by Stephen J. Patterson. Freke says in his book that Jesus Christ never existed. The story of Jesus Christ is just another of many allegorical, "Savior, born to a virgin, died on a cross" pagan story. The author says the early Christians were Gnostic (knowledge) believers in an allegorical Savior. He states that, over time, some Gnostic Christians came to believe that the Jesus Christ story was literally true. He goes on to say that the Apostle Paul was actually the champion of the allegorical Christians. Recently, I discovered the The Presbyterian Layman, November/December 2000 (www.layman.org). The newspaper provided a lot of clarity to the issues presented here. Much to my surprise, the newspaper revealed how this homosexual agenda has intruded into the national Presbyterian scene. Apparently, a conflict with the homosexual community and the national body of the Presbyterian Church (USA) has raged for several years. On center stage of that agenda is the biggest surprise: Much of their argument comes straight out of Freke's book. And one of our pastors cited Patterson's book to demonstrate that "Christ, plain and simple, never said many of the things attributed to him." I believe that the homosexual community has a national agenda to promote homosexual activity as normal lifestyle choice. They are targeting the public as well as children. They seek to force the Christian community into accepting same-sex marriages and ordained homosexual pastors. Charles Price Waukesha, Wisc. Clerk does not set policy January 24, 2001 With reference to Stated Clerk Clifton Kirkpatrick's bias toward Amendment O, I continue to be perplexed by his unwillingness to properly perform his job. His is not to set policy; it is to administer the decisions of General Assembly. For several years, he has been a major cause of unrest in our denomination. He goes with his own agenda and encourages those who would substitute a social agenda for a Biblical, Christ-centered agenda. How long are he and his likes in Louisville to be allowed to subvert the policy of our governing body, the General Assembly? It is past time for the PCUSA to quit catering to the small minority who seek to destroy the church. We have more important things to do for our Lord. Bill Arthur Tucson, Ariz. Don't take 19 moderators seriously January 24, 2001 I have recently received another letter about why Amendment O is going to be bad for our denomination. This one came from some of the former moderators of the Presbyterian Church (USA). Before anybody loses sleep over this letter, let's answer this question: Would you take seriously the counsel of any other 19 leaders who oversaw a corporation's loss of nearly 30 percent of its stockholders and a massive decline in their market share in a period of roughly 25 years? I don't know which is more regrettable, these folks' continued sense of self-importance or our willingness to still look to them for guidance on what will be best for the denomination. Donald D. Denton Richmond, Va. Let's call them according to Scripture Re: Newspaper analysis features PCUSA's same-sex union debate September 4, 2000 What's there to respond to in the St. Petersburg Times article? Every time Harold Brockus blesses a same-sex union he is blessing sin, and William Martin is doing his duty by trying to stop the commission of this kind of sin. The former is evil and the latter is good. It's time we Presbyterians called it like it is according to Scripture. Earl Tilford Carlisle, Pa. Opponents on same-sex union vote not surprising Re: Covenant Network to oppose same-sex union prohibition August 3, 2000 Two questions come to mind as I read your report of the Covenant Network's statement that they'll work to defeat the overture to add a specific prohibition of clergy participation in or church "blessing" of same-sex union ceremonies. First, is anyone surprised at the stand the Covenant Network has taken on the overture? I think not. Second, had the GA vote gone the other way, wouldn't the Lay Committee be saying that such a close vote is no mandate for sweeping change? So we're all "choosing up sides" for the fuss of the year; and who's surprised at the way the sides are shaping up? Daniel Graham Pastor First Presbyterian Church Grundy Center, IA We should submit to God's authority Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 9, 2000 God reigns! When will the leadership of the PCUSA and the liberals accept this? We should submit to the authority of God and submit to His will. When God's inspired Word says homosexuality is sin, shouldn't that be enough to condemn it? When God's Word says marriage is between a man and a woman, is that not enough? That is what God says and that should settle it. Unfortunately, many in our church would rather exalt themselves and ignore God's authority. Instead of serving him and submitting to his authority, they make their own morality in defiance of the One who created them! If our church does not change, I will leave with a sad heart. It has been long enough that the leadership has rejected the sovereignty of God and Reformed theology our church is supposed to stand behind and instead has favored man-made thinking and philosophy. Roy Waggoner McPherson, KS PJC ruling is 'simply outrageous' Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 9, 2000 The recent PJC ruling allowing same-sex unions is simply outrageous! However, PCUSA has a great opportunity to take back lost ground in only a few days in Long Beach. Let's pray that those in attendance at the GA will have the determination and strength to stand firmly against those who care little about God's Word. This may be one of the most important General Assemblies in many years. Pray unceasingly! Stephen G. Brown Battle is direct attack on the Gospel of Christ Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 9, 2000 This battle is not about inclusiveness or overcoming prejudice. At the heart of the belief that homosexuals must be affirmed, even "holy united" because they cannot help their orientation, is a direct attack on the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. We all inherit the sinful nature of Adam and the willful desire to commit acts of sin. None of us has any excuse for sin. God will judge all sinners who reject His mercy. The only remedy for sin is repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. But the good news is that ALL who come to Christ in sincere repentance and faith WILL be accepted, forgiven, cleansed and renewed! Sexual sins are not beyond God's power to heal; the only thing beyond God's power to deliver is a human being who refuses to turn to Jesus and let him be Lord. Those who would exempt homosexuality as an exception to the Gospel are doing those they wish to help no kindness, but robbing them of the only hope they have. Kathryn J. Riss Piscataway, NJ The Scripture is clear, when will Presbyterians obey it? Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 9, 2000 This situation reminds me of 1 Corinthians 5:6, "... Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough?" Of course, the solution follows in Verse 7, "Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast..." and Verses 9-11, "I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people – not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, in that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral, or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler, with such a man do not even eat." The Scripture is clear; when will Presbyterians obey it? The practicing sexually immoral ought not to be working at headquarters. It's time to clean house in the church, starting with those in leadership. "Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place." (Rev 2:5) Otherwise, the prognosis is Ichabod. (1 Samuel 4:11) Mark McNeil Albuquerque, NM Should we define 'man' and 'woman'? Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 9, 2000 As long as matters of religious doctrine are determined by the lawyers (i.e. PJC's finding that if it isn't prohibited it's permitted) everything will need to be spelled out in excruciating detail. Indeed, one thing not considered is to define "man" and "woman" to confine participants in marriage to those who actually started out as their respective gender. Tom Taggart Attorney at law Athens, OH PJC's disregard for spirit of the law is height of hypocrisy Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 9, 2000 I find it most interesting that the same factions who have spoken out so passionately against the application of the "letter of the law" as it is found in Scripture, the Confessions, and the Constitution, are the very same factions who manipulate the law in a fashion profoundly reminiscent of the Pharisees themselves. While the PJC's application of logic and literalism cannot be faulted, it's blatant disregard for the spirit of the law (which many are so fond of pointing to as justification for acceptance of a gay life-style) strikes me as being the absolute height of hypocrisy. The distinction between services of marriage between a man and a woman on the one hand, and same-sex unions, on the other hand, will most assuredly be ignored and lost. The media will see this decision as approving of same-sex marriages; the participants in the ceremony itself will see this decision as approving of same-sex marriages; the world in which we attempt to minister in the name of Jesus Christ will see this decision as approving of same-sex marriages; most important of all, the God who is the searcher of hearts and minds and souls will see this for what it really is -- yet another effort to declare for ourselves that we know better than God what is good for us. As a denomination, we wring our hands and fret about our declining membership, and about our growing ineffectiveness when speaking to our culture, and about our fuzziness of evangelistic focus. How can we speak an effective Word of hope and grace to a culture from which we do not differentiate ourselves? How can we expect to have people feel called by God to join with us, when we ourselves are following a path that is contrary to what God has revealed? How can we lay claim to good news, when the news by which we order our decisions is not the news of Jesus Christ, but is instead the news of doing that which is right in our own eyes? We are already reaping what we have sown. May God forgive us. Jonathan Van Deventer Aiken, SC I want to evangelize, instead I apologize June 9, 2000 I passionately want to be an evangelist for Jesus Christ; I find I am having to be an apologist for my denomination. Very sad. The Rev. Dr. Patrick H. Wrisley Community Presbyterian Celebration, FL 'Shame on the GA PJC for its audacity' Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 6, 2000 In reading the General Assembly Permanent Judicial Commission's decision allowing "same-sex unions," I ran across a line of the opinion which shows the PJC's bias and dis- regard for the authority of Scripture. In section III they write, "A same-sex ceremony celebrates a loving, caring, and committed relationship." Never mind that this relationship is also idolatrous, destructive, and forbidden by God. Yes, the Church must minister to those who struggle with homosexual feelings. But this is not the way to do it, if revelation means anything. Shame on the GA PJC for its audacity. If the Word of God, which is contained in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, truly is the only rule God has given whereby we may glorify and enjoy Him, as our confessions clearly state, then the PJC has ceased to be Reformed. I pray that they have not ceased to be Christians, if they ever were in the first place. C. Powell Sykes Pastor, Westminster Presbyterian Church Burlington, NC We have been 'sold down the river' Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 6, 2000 As a result of stacking the Permanent Judicial Council a couple of years by refusing to accept several highly qualified evangelicals, we have now predictably been sold down the river by the PJC. When we have no faith in those that are expected to uphold the standards of the Book of Confessions and Book of Order, to whom do we turn? It is amazing how a small handful of dedicated one-issue people, including many pastors, can turn a major denomination on end. I believe I see a relationship between such people and a computer virus. It's easier to rid ourselves of the latter. There are some good people at Louisville. Let's help them do their jobs by providing them with the right leaders. A denomination that continually lowers the standards in order to have a "big tent" is valueless, and predictably results in a continuing membership hemorrhage. Let those who want God's standards lowered go elsewhere. Donald M. Snider Fair Oaks, CA More Light Presbyterians: 'We aren't leaving' Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 6, 2000 I have read the responses to this article and one person had the audacity to refer to people who are honorable and respectable. I serve a More Light church, and my church members ARE responsible and respectable. Shame on you for suggesting otherwise. We aren't leaving and we are Presbyterians, through and through. My church members are doctors, retired persons, builders, teachers, pharmacists, EMT's, artists, dot.com workers, and people who care for ALL of God's children. Art Seaman Christ Presbyterian Church in Terra Linda Every organization has rules to live by Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 6, 2000 Every organization has to have rules and regulations to live by. If the homosexuals don't want to abide by our "man and woman marriages," then they should get out of the Presbyterian church. They have disturbed the peace of our church long enough. Nancy Forsyth Member, First Presbyterian Church Pikeville, Ky. Reader will 'worship where God is in command' Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 6, 2000 One of the letters said, "The Presbyterian Church has wasted so much energy over the last 20 years on homosexuality." If that energy had been directed toward saving souls, missions, evangelism and all other God directed commands, our church would be thriving. Instead it is faltering at this critical time and seems to be headed in a downward spiral toward more sin than anyone can imagine. My home church is fine, but I cannot in good faith continue to send God's portion of my resources to Presbytery, Synod and General Assembly and have it used for studies that are in direct conflict with Scripture and all our Church stands for. I will leave and worship where God is in command and not a group of liberals. Adelbert E. Eldridge Towanda, Pa. Outcome of same-sex union issue 'predictable' Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 6, 2000 The outcome of the "same-sex union" issue at the General Assembly is predictable: 1. There will be overtures and counter-overtures. 2. There will be a demonstration by gay activists that is completely out of order but nevertheless allowed by the moderator. 3. The Assembly will reject the idea of "same-sex unions" – but by a less than overwhelming margin. 4. The denomination will lose somewhere between 30-40,000 members in the coming year. 5. We'll go through the whole sorry mess again next time. When will conservatives say "Enough!" and put an end to the lingering death of this denomination? Donald Jones Grapevine, Texas Common member of church has no say Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 6, 2000 As a concerned Presbyterian, I am strongly considering leaving the Church. I feel that the common member does not have any say, except to be asked to put in more money to throw down the rat hole. There is less and less Spirituality in our church and I suspect in most of our churches the same problem exists. Ben Barr Decision on same-sex unions upsetting Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 1, 2000 I am really upset with this decision to allow same sex unions. Year after year we must put all this energy into fighting for our Higher standards. I am just about ready to leave the PCUSA behind and worship some place else. Blessings to you all. Dave Clark Yuba City Confessions' view of marriage is clear Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 1, 2000 How could the Permanent Judicial Commission (PJC) find it within their jurisdiction to rewrite The Westminster Confession of Faith? Chapter XXIV 'Of Marriage and Divorce,' paragraph I, clearly states "marriage is to be between one man and one woman: neither is it lawful for any man to have more than one wife, nor for any woman to have more than one husband, at the same time." Let's go back to our denomination's original confessions and then pray softly and listen intently to our one God. Rance Hixson First Presbyterian Church (USA) Hiawatha, Kan. Today's problems harken back to Baalism Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 1, 2000 For over 20 years, Presbyterians have wasted precious attention and resources on the non-issue of blessing (not tolerating) homosexual behavior, which our God defines as sin. This all harkens back to the perverted sexual-religious practices (Baal) that so effectively invaded and undermined true worship in ancient Israel. The destruction and dispersion of Israel was the result. Our church has spoken conclusively (provision G-6.0106b) on this issue. Yet the forces of evil continue to attack. Can anyone doubt that this is anything but spiritual warfare? Pray for and write/e-mail your GA commissioners and delegates, that they would decisively affirm the resolutions (Tampa Bay, San Joaquin, and Charlotte) to prohibit such ceremonies by God's pastors in His churches. William & Toby R. Faith West Lafayette, Ind. When will the foolishness stop? Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 1, 2000 When will the foolishness stop? How long will we allow sin in the camp? I pray that delegates at the General Assembly this summer will overturn the decision of the PJC concerning same-sex unions and allowing homosexual candidates. Let them also remove the ungodly people who made these decisions. Rev. Greg Wiest When will the foolishness stop? Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry June 1, 2000 'New' Presbyterian embarrassed by court rulings What have I gotten myself into? I am a "new" Presbyterian (although I've been a Christian for quite some time), and I am embarrassed when Christian friends outside PCUSA ask me about rulings such as these. I am at least able to discuss theological differences faced by the Body of Christ at large – eternal security, tongues, even eschatological views – in an intelligent and thoughtful way, but all I can do when challenged about these kinds of headline-making decisions is hang my head in shame. Nevertheless, there is still hope. The congregation I love, serve and worship with stands firm on the biblical teachings on these issues, and as long as believers will still do that, perhaps the Lord will yet wrest His Church from the hands of leaders whose leadership has failed us – and Him! Kurt Ayres Avon, Illinois Brazilians weep for PCUSA Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 30, 2000 Here in Brazil I know of no believers in Jesus and the Bible who could begin to comprehend how the church could make this ruling about "same-sex unions." Our congregation held a 12-hour fasting prayer vigil during last year's General Assembly. Looks like we need to do the same this year! Our sisters and brothers weep with us for the Presbyterian Church (USA). Sign me a heavy-hearted mission co-worker. Lottie B. Haswell PJC is ignoring the majority Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 30, 2000 Apparently the Permanent Judicial Council of the Presbyterian Church is determined to ignore the clear intention of the majority of the church by technical legalities. I am a member of Central Florida Presbytery's Committee on Preparation, and I would never allow an openly gay candidate to continue in his/her quest to be a minister. This is not only a disservice to the church but also a disservice to the candidate who will be placed in a very awkward position given the current stand of our denomination. The ruling on same sex-unions is even more out of touch with Biblical morality and what the majority of people in this country believe. The "pastoral letter" of our moderator and stated clerk suggesting that these rulings are in line with what the church has always believed is the worst sort of sophistry. I have always listened patiently to those whose views have not been in line with mine. However, it has become apparent to me that there are high-ranking officials in our denomination who have no interest in what the people of the church believe or say. Therefore, I will work for the defeat of Clifton Kirkpatrick in his bid to have a second term as stated clerk of the General Assembly, and I will work to elect a new moderator who is willing to uphold the Constitution of this Church. The Rev. Dr. Frank Allen Pastor First Presbyterian Church of Kissimmee, Fla. Pastoral letter 'superficially trite' Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry Re: Pastoral letter May 30, 2000 This "pastoral letter" by Stated Clerk Clifton Kirkpatrick and Moderator Freda Gardner is so transparent and superficially trite it almost boggles the mind. The moderator and stated clerk are two symptoms of what is really wrong with the PCUSA today. They try to justify their own views to a body that keeps saying, "Don't do that." They are accomplished spin doctors who are intent on forcing their personal message down the throat of a captive audience. The PCUSA will continue its downward spiral until offices such as theirs are filled with persons who have the denomination's beliefs and interests at heart. Doug Day Elder, Gashland Presbyterian Church Kansas City, Mo. Pastoral letter was a whitewash Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry Re: Pastoral letter May 30, 2000 I have just finished reading the pastoral letter of Stated Clerk Clifton Kirkpatrick and Moderator Freda Gardner and the complete decision of the Permanent Judicial Commission. The letter was a whitewash, and the commission's decision was the most legalistic opinion I have ever read. The church's highest court chose to place its own very tight interpretation of the constitution rather than look to the higher moral meaning of the "fidelity/chastity" amendment [G-6.0106b in the Book of Order], which, in my opinion, included a ban on same-sex marriages. Instead, the court chose to give the authority to a minister to decide whether such a "union" was or was not a marriage. This opened the floodgates to same-sex "marriages." For the Presbyterian Church to condone such "marriages" is anathema to thousands of the good and decent people belonging to what used to be a respected institution. If the "Tyranny of the Minority" is successful at the next General Assembly in Long Beach, then I fear for the very soul of the Presbyterian Church, a church which has stood on the moral side of the great controversies over the centuries. The only way for the majority to regain control is for commissioners to Presbyteries across the land to rise up and elect General Assembly commissioners who have been "vetted" as to their moral character, i.e., will they do the "right thing?" There are those who will say that such a selection process is unconstitutional, but I see nothing in the constitution which says a commissioner can't decently ask insightful questions of prospective commissioners. It is the will of the majority at presbytery meetings which should prevail and not the usual rubber-stamping. For far too long we have permitted the hierarchy to act as bishops rather than as our representatives. My prayers are for all the commissioners at the GA that they will prayerfully consider from their hearts the overtures which will strengthen the constitution with respect to absolute banning of "same-sex unions" no matter what they are called. Robert S. Whitmore Jr. Elder, Michillinda Presbyterian Church Pasadena, Calif. Great advance for gay-lesbian cause Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 30, 2000 The initial response to the PJC ruling by the gay caucus has been so understated. "No new ground broken," says Mitzi Henderson, co-moderator of More Light Presbyterians. "Holy unions in no way diminish the importance or value of Christian marriage," says Scott Anderson. But my hunch is that underneath this veneer of restraint, the glee goes deep-that this is a great advance for the gay and lesbian cause. Larry Baskin Pastor First Presbyterian Church Florence, Ala. Prohibition unlikely to be respected Re: Language in same-sex decision does not compel compliance May 30, 2000 You might say the GAPJC "shoulded" on the PCUSA. Your analysis is apt and insightful. But given the assertion that standards should be on a balance with the minister's subjective perception of the needs of his congregation, would even an explicit prohibition in the Book of Order have been respected by this PJC? James R. Tony Iron-clad language needed Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 30, 2000 We must stop the Permanent Judicial Commission in its headlong attempt to bring homosexual behavior into the mainstream of the church. The recent rulings leave us no choice but to work for iron-clad language that prevents judicial activism in support of homosexual behavior. Can we get the job done in the next General Assembly? I hope we can. Jim Kettlewell Decision disappointing, not surprising Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 30, 2000 I'm disappointed, though not surprised, that the Permanent Judicial Commission ruled to sanction same-sex "holy unions." I hope and pray next month the General Assembly will vote to overturn this action. I don't know what those chances are, but if our commissioners choose to agree with this ruling, I don't see how I can possibly remain in a denomination that purposely violates Holy Scripture and its own constitution. I'm sure there are many others who feel this way. We're going to need The Layman more than ever if the worst happens. Mike Montgomery Atlanta, Ga. Was Jesus wrong about celibacy, marriage? May 30, 2000 Liberal Christians raise valid questions and make legitimate arguments that deserve serious consideration. However, to force their agenda upon the church by playing semantic games with church policies is highly unethical. I have this concern: My liberal brothers and sisters, when Jesus said our choice was "marriage or celibacy," do you think the Son of God was being intolerant, homophobic, unjust? Or was he merely uneducated, a product of his culture? Obviously, Jesus Christ must have been very limited in his understanding of scientific knowledge and liberationist theology to have made such a statement. A liberal Episcopal bishop has likened evangelical bishops to Nazis. Do you think when Jesus Christ said "marriage or celibacy," he was being a Nazi? Or – maybe this is it – maybe Jesus is not the Son of God, not the Risen Lord at all? That would explain it – this great teacher must have been a first-century Israelite severely backward in his thinking. The implication that Jesus Christ must have gotten this one wrong – or really secretly meant something else – has some fairly large consequences. Has anyone thought about them? If we don't follow Christ, then who should we follow? I am a basic moderate-to-conservative evangelical, baptized Episcopalian. I am watching your church with interest because my church will be there soon. I wonder sometimes if God even blesses our fighting for these meaningless denominational structures. Jeff Barnet Las Cruces, N.M. Another gutless performance Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 30, 2000 Hurray! Another gutless performance by the PJC and the Presbyterian Church (USA). I may be leaving the church I love of 38 years as a result. Why are we defiling the true word of God by endorsing what 1-to-2 percent of the population believe in? Such liberal interpretation of the Bible will result in their destruction but not in the destruction of God's Word, which will always stand the test of time. Jack Fox Towanda, Pennsylvania Pastor who filed original complaint laments Judicial Commission decision Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 26, 2000 I guess by default I'm qualified to offer comment on this case. I was the one who made the initial phone calls raising the concern that a church in our Presbytery (Hudson River) was doing "gay weddings." On August 9, 1998, a religion writer for our county newspaper published a well-researched panel of articles on homosexuality and religion. He compared various religions' viewpoints and also compared a mainline "liberal" viewpoint with an "evangelical" viewpoint. I personally know many of the pastors he interviewed. "Gay Couple's Marriage Welcomed at Dobbs Ferry" was the headline that prompted me to call some of my evangelical colleagues in our presbytery that week. The article stated, "South Presbyterian has hosted about 15 same-sex weddings during the last four years, even though the denomination that the church belongs to – Presbyterian Church (USA) – forbids its clergy to perform such unions. The church's co-pastors… do not believe in the rule and openly ignore it." Now they don't have to ignore it, it's gone. The couple "getting married" in 1998 is quoted extensively. "At South Church, I'm loved and accepted for who I am. But even gay people are surprised you can marry in a 'mainstream' church. … These people are like family to us, (name) said. At South Church, we can have a 'real' wedding and receive God's blessing." This is how the couple perceived it, this is how our society sees it, this is how the reporter reported it. It was a "marriage." This openly public display by South Church made us believe that they were ready to test our system and push through an agenda that would lead to where it has now led. We asked our presbytery to investigate what was going on and now we have a decision that affects our whole denomination. Today's headline, May 25, 2000, of the same newspaper reads, "Presbyterians OK same-sex unions." The inside page headline reads, "Presbyterian Church approves same sex unions." Our Presbytery and our courts have ruled "As long as you don't call it a marriage it's okay." Is this an argument of semantics as some have attested? Absolutely not! And we all know it. Let's be honest. The issue is theological. The problem is sin. Our denomination has now made it official that we can bless sin. If a married man in my congregation comes to me and asks me to bless his sexual relationship with the woman with whom he is having an affair I no longer have PCUSA constitutional grounds to refuse him. If a woman in my congregation asks our session for the right to be united to her lesbian lover in a ceremony in our sanctuary, our session could be prosecuted for refusing her. Since there is no explicit Book of Order prohibition, churches now, based on this ruling, can bless relationships of incest, pedophilia, and bestiality. I know this sounds crude and horrible, but the judicial logic applies. Bottom line. The Presbyterian Church (USA) has no business blessing what God calls sin. Any sexual relationship outside of the context a marriage between a man and a woman is sin. Our denomination has now told the world that it is not sin, that it's okay, "just don't call it a marriage." "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea," Jesus said. Dr. Allen V. Kemp Co-pastor Suffern Presbyterian Church Suffern, NY 10901 PJC chose to twist, ignore Scripture, Constitution Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 26, 2000 This news is unbelievable. A PJC that is charged with the responsibility to uphold and affirm the teaching of the Scriptures (the very record of God's revelation) and the Constitution of our church (theology and polity) choosing to twist, ignore or deny the very Scriptural and constitutional authority by which it is to decide on such rulings. This goes beyond hair-splitting to being completely bald of reason or revelation. This PJC's ruling displays an abdication of its own authority under the constitution it claims to represent. Robert M. Howard Virus could destroy Presbyterian Church Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 26, 2000 The Presbyterian Church has a virus that could destroy the denomination if left to run free through all the channels of conversation. Is it not true that "He who is in us, is stronger that he who is in the world?" The only way to overcome "he who is in the world" is to vote their overtures in the negative, pray for them, love them in Jesus' name, at the same time not letting their ideas penetrate our lives. I can't understand why the Permanent Judicial Commission voted the way it did unless they are so liberal that they don't understand the Bible, or, perhaps believe that the denomination ought to be doing the very thing they advocated in their decision. There is a great need to pray for these folk that clarity might come forth after an in-depth study of the Word convicts them of their sin. I pray that the virus doesn't get into the lives of those who truly love the Lord. I would hope that the virus can be eradicated through the power of the Word in Jesus Christ for He alone has the power to overcome if we respond rightly to what He teaches and leads in His Word. Charles Louis Pattison Clovis, NM How do you protest decision by court? Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 26, 2000 Where do we go to protest the ruling [by the PJC on same-sex ceremonies]? Living within Scripture – fine. But don't try to bend, then break beyond recognition. Let them form their own denomination and pick and choose whatever Scriptures they wish. Should this ruling remain, there will be a flood of people leaving the Presbyterian Church. Of course this is exactly what they want – to inherit the church for respectability, finances and property. Help! William Rinehart Theology doesn't matter to some of our leaders Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 26, 2000 The latest PJC rulings confirm that "theology does not matter" to many of our leaders. Furthermore, such rulings will provide no evidence of peace and joy as long as the focus is on celebrating "diversity." The call to Christians is, in the first instance, to celebrate unity. This celebration is grounded in both the historical and contemporary experience of the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. Tragically, some of our would-be leaders have failed miserably and have once again lowered the bar for a common spiritual denominator. Indeed, a denominator so 'common' that it is far removed from the character of the God who is Holy and calls us to be holy. As GA approaches let us rejoice in Him who is our strength. Above all, let those who believe pray, pray, pray. Jerry J. Voss Fresno, Calif. Words mean something wrong for denomination Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 26, 2000 RE: Comments on the Permanent Judicial Commission's OK to authorize presbyteries and sessions to allow same sex blessings. The American Heritage Dictionary: Blessing-Approbation. Approbation: To sanction, authorize. My prayers go out to our denomination which is falling into the pit of sin. Our own moderator has been quoted in a recent article in The Layman that our denomination must be changed by the culture in order to survive. How prophetic she is, the sad fact is, with these types of judgments, this will be a denomination of the culture, not of God. Peter Nelson Thermal, Calif. Can forbidden relationship be 'holy' for church? Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 26, 2000 What is "holy" about a relationship based on what the Bible forbids? How can we make our voices known concerning this issue? Mary Minnich Gardens Presbyterian Church Florida Waiting patiently for godly decision Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 26, 2000 Just once, it would be nice not to feel a knot in the stomach at the decisions made by the highest court of the church. Just once it would be nice to be congratulated by my colleagues from other denominations for a firm stand taken by the Presbyterian Church (USA). Just once, it would be nice not to have to try to defend the indefensible. Just once I'd like the crackpots who force these decisions upon us to listen to the fury of my members, and to hear the complaints of those who had been considering joining the church, but who now cannot. Just once it would be wonderful to feel that those who hold high office read the same Bible as me, and worship the same holy and righteous God. It's not a lot to ask, just once. How long, Lord? Alan Trafford Senior Pastor First Presbyterian Church Lake Jackson, TX Court decision on gay candidate was perplexing Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 26, 2000 We are perplexed with the decision of the General Assembly's Permanent Judicial Commission. The constitution of our church speaks clearly to sinful practices including sexual sin. Our Book of Order notes that "persons seeking to be received as candidates for ministry in the PCUSA shall have their attention drawn to the constitutional documents of the church.…" The essential document of the church is the Word of God as interpreted by the standards of the church. Among our constitutional standards is the requirement to live either in fidelity within the covenant of marriage or chastity in singleness. For an inquirer, seeking to be a candidate for the office of minister of the Word and Sacrament, to declare that he has no intention to live within those standards indicates that his conscience is outside the boundaries of the established standards of our church. Furthermore, the candidate's stated intent to engage in behavior outside the church's standards is evidence of lack of repentance, which has always been essential to the Christian life and to the church's standards. For our church courts to acknowledge that such an "inquirer" has no possibility of ordination under the standards of the church and yet to advance such a candidate along the ordination pathway appears unreasonable and will only foment further disquiet within the church. The PJC's finding further suggests that unless the Book of Order becomes an increasingly detailed legislative handbook it is unwilling to apply the general standards or principles to particular situations. It is our sincere hope that this candidate, with the pastoral counsel and guidance of our presbytery, and the amazing grace of God, will bring his conscience into compliance with the Word of God as interpreted in the standards of the church, so as to be able to be ordained as a minister in the church we all love. John S. Sheldon Mr. Sheldon, of the Presbytery of West Jersey was among the appellants who sought to require the presbytery to strike the name of a man who said he was gay and intended to live with another man in a "fully sexual" way as a candidate for ordination. God doesn't ask for tolerance, but obedience Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 26, 2000 The recent decision rendered by the Permanent Judicial Commission on the holy union issue saddens my heart and makes me question whether I wish to remain a member of a church in the PCUSA. I have recently been ordained an elder within my local church and it has been a blessing to serve my God by fulfilling the responsibilities contained therein but I am uncomfortable when the organization I am a member of contradicts what is written upon my heart and the pages of God's Word. How can the people we have placed in office delude themselves into thinking that this "holy union"(which is a most ironic name for it) is pleasing to God? Do they really feel they have been a good and faithful servant by allowing the name of God to be identified with sin? God does not ask for our tolerance, but rather our obedience. Sins need to be forgiven, not flaunted and endorsed. I am trying to understand the "other" side. Currently, I believe that their hearts are hardened and they are not theologically sound. I am not a Biblical scholar so perhaps I missed something or perhaps they have just ignored or twisted God's word. I welcome intelligent responses as we cannot both be following God's will regarding this issue. John McCaffery New Windsor, NY PJC chose to twist, ignore Scripture, Constitution Re: Rulings allow same-sex unions, gay candidate for ministry May 26, 2000 What's the next step going to be? What are we to do now ... dissociate ourselves? Is there any remedy for the General Assembly PJC not upholding Christian standards? It seems time to act. Earl Reynolds Church, pastor should be dismissed by PCUSA Re: Gays say Presbyterian pastor 'married' them during ceremony May 18, 2000 The Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church in Cincinnati and Rev. Steve Van Kueken, pastor of Mount Auburn, should be dismissed by the PCUSA for allowing same-sex marriages. You can call it any way that you see it – but, same-sex marriage is same-sex marriage. They are openly defiant of the Bible and the Constitution of the Presbyterian Church (USA). Bob Gillman Advocates of gay unions are gaining ground March 23, 2000 Let us take no comfort in the current positions of the United Methodists and PCUSA in standing against "gay unions." Not only is it appalling that churches if Jesus Christ would even consider condoning such unions, but the advocates of such unions are gaining ground every year. What comfort is it that the secular society is so far ahead of the church in condemning such unions. Rev. J. Harry McElroy Elmhurst, Pa. California takes stand that PCUSA has avoided March 9, 2000 Re: As did Californians, Presbyterians face issue of same-sex unions It is ironic that the state of California may make a more definite stand against homosexual marriage than the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.). Earl H. Tilford Jr., Second Presbyterian Church, Carlisle, Pa. Spahr shows courage in stand for justice March 7, 2000 Re: PCUSA lesbian to lead Bay Area rally against Proposition 22 The Rev. Dr. Janie Spahr is a brave woman who is willing to make a stand for the kind of justice for all people that we find in the Gospels and in the words of the prophets. I am thankful for her courage. The Rev. Dr. Jean Rodenbough Madison, N.C. Condoning same-sex unions is appalling February 10, 2000 I think it is appalling that the PCUSA is condoning same sex unions. This goes completely against the Bible and should not be allowed by our church. Homosexuality is condemned in both the Old and New Testaments. This does not change with time, it is ordained by God and spoken in his Book. Brian S. Cole, Raleigh, NC Talk show's host caused an uproar Re: 34 Presbyterians sign statement against Biblical sexual ethics January 27, 2000 I wasn't surprised to see Harold Porter (Cincinnati) on the list [of Presbyterians opposing Biblical and Reformed standards for sexual behavior]. He stated on a local Christian radio (WTSJ) talk show several years ago that the verse referring to Apostle John lying on Jesus' breast indicated homosexual activity. Mark McNeil P.S. I owned the station at the time. Boy, did we get calls! Church court's decision is 'pagan nonsense' Re: Church court says 'same-sex' rites do not violate constitution November 23, 1999 The way the Permanent Judicial Commission of the Synod of the Northeast is dealing with this issue is past absurdity, it's pagan nonsense. You should list everybody's name who voted and indicate how they voted. Evil cannot tolerate the light of exposure. (John 3:20) I do hope the Layman's readers know that these same-sex "holy unions" do not envision the need for monogamy, they envision just an intimate "friendship." Mark McNeil, Albuquerque, N.M.
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